Timing problem with 9mm

[.5mv^2]

I am not sure what is going on. I have been shooting my KelTec 9mm and since day one have noticed that the primer pockets have a strange appearance. They are bulged out around the primer indentation and then flattened down.
http://veloliner.com/kt/ktpf9brass.JPG

Lately I have been using my Lee 105 SWC bullets and seen the exact same thing with the primers.
http://veloliner.com/loading/ninecast.JPG

My powders of choice has been Unique.

Last night for some reason I decided to load a few with 2400. A slower powder but I thought it might make the rounds shoot with nearly a case full. I found that my gun cycled with 7.2 grains of 2400 but the round was fairly anemic sounding. I went up to a slightly compressed 8 grain load and put them on the chrony at 900fps, about like a 380. My Unique load was tested in a 1911 9mm (5" barrel) at 1200 fps. I doubt if I can get that much more 2400 in the 9mm case to get better performance.

My question is this: How come the primers look so different? The 2400 is slower and the round is not as energetic.
http://veloliner.com/loading/ktbrassunique2400.JPG
The front two have been both shot with 2400 the back two with Unique. All four with the Keltec PF9. Is the recoil spring too soft or am I getting a bounce with the barrel or slide to create the slight "mushroom" effect?

[MtGun44]

The ones with the ring of sheared off metal are TOO HOT for your gun. I have exactly
the same problem with my PF9. My std load that is just fine in HighPower, Ber92, Sig 225 and
Walther P1 is too hot due to primer extrusion.

I am going to a faster powder and less of it, not tested yet. The slide is VERY light and
I think maybe my powder and yours is keeping the pressure up too long, and too high
for the size of the firing pin hole in the breech. Mine shoots factory ammo perfectly and
no primer dramas, so I know mine is MY ammo.

2400 is WAY too slow for this cartridge and esp in this short of a barrel. Try more like
Titegroup or BE or Win231.

Bill

[.5mv^2]

I didn't mention it in this post but I was getting quite a bit of tumbling with 231. which improved 2-3 fold with unique. The primers still looked the same however. It made me think that a slower powder might help.

2400 was the next in line in my loading room. I haven't targeted with 2400 yet. Have only shot 9 rounds through it so far.

I have never shot the pf9 with factory ammo. I am going to pull box out and load it.

I appreciate your insight. If I can solve my primer mushroom issue would you think I would be at the right load factor. Would a heavier recoil spring help mask the light slide?

[scrapcan]

As MTGun44 said, the cratered primers could be an indication of pressure. The craters indicated the primer cup is flowing around the firing pin. This can be caused by a worn firing pin, firing pin hole, or high pressure.

since you showed a load with no indication of crater, I would be inclined to think higher pressure and not an issue with the firing pin or firing pin hole in slide.

Another thing you might try is a different primer to see if the primer cup is different on a different brand.

This

[.5mv^2]

I have used Remington Federal Winchester and CBC (magtech) primers all with nearly the same results.

As mentioned the heavier handguns all shoot the rounds without abnormalities. No flattened or flowing primers.

Maybe the leed is shorter in this gun and the bullets are nearly sitting on the rifling leading to the pressure spike and doing weird things to the primer.

Was hoping that the pressure curve might be flatter with a slower powder. Maybe the bulletshape or barrel design needs changing.

[MtGun44]

I am using the Lee 356-120TC sized at .357 and it does not misbehave in many other
9mms, only in the PF9. Haven't really sorted it out, may be throat related or small
firing pin and big hole. Whatever, to keep the gun happy, a harder primer or lower
pressure is needed.

Bill

[subsonic]

What does factory ammo do?

[MtGun44]

In my PF9 - factory Win ball works totally normally, so I know that the problem is my ammo.

Check it with factory ammo, but I'll bet the problem is like mine - too much pressure
at the wrong time. The primers look just like mine do.

Bill

[.5mv^2]

Hi again
I got a chance to test some factory S&B FMJ ammo 115 grain in my KT PF9 today. I got the same looking primers as I had with my hand loads.
http://veloliner.com/loading/sb9inkt9.JPG
Maybe it isn't particularly my handloads.

Found a burn rate chart and found that WSF was slower than unique but faster than 2400. I had some in my powder cabinet. I started with 4.3 grains, I didn't see a load for it but that was the max load for a 147 grain bullet and my bullets were lighter (105). They shot pretty consistently. I was getting 960 fps +-15. They wouldn't cycle my 1911 in 9 but would shoot in a glock. I went up to 4.7 grains and they would cycle in the 1911 but were noticably sharper in the KT.

With 4.3 WSF the 105 g swc's would have a very nice looking dimple in the primer and started getting raised at 4.7 grains.

So you are exactly right that the primer issue is connected to the pressure.

I am getting none of the sideways shots with this load that I was getting with W231 or even occasionally when shooting Unique.

[subsonic]

If it were mine, I'd contact Kel-tec about it and try to get a call tag to send it back. Something isn't right. You aren't pushing the limit with pressure.

Is the PF9 rated for +P? You aren't near +P....

[canyon-ghost]

It's the curse of the nine, pressure getting too high too quick. Had me pulling bullets at one point. I used a 125 grain Lyman Devastator and loaded to 3.2 grains of Bullseye. Even though I tried to go faster, the pressure curve made it unbearable. I just had to back down to 3.2 and that was possibly the most accurate.

I did determine that new brass in handloads had a firmer grip on the lead bullet than factory, it was a bit like a very hard crimp. That's one factor, aside from the small case size.

[.5mv^2]

It states in the manual that you can shoot +P but not to do it regularly.

It is a pretty good shooting gun but I don't want continuously overload it

I may contact them but am thinking that a stronger return spring may be what is needed. I have maybe 6-800 rounds on the gun in the past 16 months.

Perhaps my weapon has a tighter lead in to the rifling and my loads are at higher pressure even though a round in a "standard" barrel may not be too "hot"

I may try and get some FMJ winchester or remington ammo before I do.

[garym1a2]

I run a lot of WSF in my 9mm glock with the lee 120grt TC. 4.5gr, in my brothers xdm5.25 4.2gr runs better. its a great 9mm powder.


Hi again
I got a chance to test some factory S&B FMJ ammo 115 grain in my KT PF9 today. I got the same looking primers as I had with my hand loads.
http://veloliner.com/loading/sb9inkt9.JPG
Maybe it isn't particularly my handloads.

Found a burn rate chart and found that WSF was slower than unique but faster than 2400. I had some in my powder cabinet. I started with 4.3 grains, I didn't see a load for it but that was the max load for a 147 grain bullet and my bullets were lighter (105). They shot pretty consistently. I was getting 960 fps +-15. They wouldn't cycle my 1911 in 9 but would shoot in a glock. I went up to 4.7 grains and they would cycle in the 1911 but were noticably sharper in the KT.

With 4.3 WSF the 105 g swc's would have a very nice looking dimple in the primer and started getting raised at 4.7 grains.

So you are exactly right that the primer issue is connected to the pressure.

I am getting none of the sideways shots with this load that I was getting with W231 or even occasionally when shooting Unique.

[fecmech]

I'm wondering while looking at these pictures if maybe the firing pin hole in the slide is overly large. The primers are not flowing at all near their edges, only around the firing pin. I don't think you have a pressure problem, I think you have a gun problem.

[Treeman]

What you see are "normal primers" in a PF9. The hammer is light, the slide is light, the pistol is light, the barrel is short and ,yes. the leade is non existent. EVERY PF9 I have shot does that with standard pressure factory ammo and standard pressure handloads. I say don't sweat it. Glocks have funky primer extrusions with their odd firing pins. Many 10mm pistols smear the firing pin indent across the pocket due to timing issues but I just consider dimpled primers in the PF9 as normal and proper with the design and lose no sleep over it.

[Ausglock]

when I load the 105 SWC in 9mm, I seat the boolit so that only 0.5mm is showing above the neck of the case.
I load 4.2gr W231 and fire them in a G34 with great accuracy.
My 2cents worth... your are seating out too far and the boolit is hard against the rifling in the barrel causing high pressure.
I also lube both grooves with BAC.

[gefiltephish]

Just curious, could this be caused by a firing pin that was a smidge too long and/or a fp spring a bit weak?

[scrapcan]

As Fecmec ( and I previously) noted this appears to be an issue with the firing pin or the firing pin hole in the breechface. You are getting flow around the firing pin. I think this might be an issue with tip geometry on the firing pin if lots of these handguns do this. I would think that KelTec would like to know about your issues as this is not the way they are supposed to look.

And as Fecmec noted you do not have flattening at the edge of the primer, I would guess you should be getting the flattened primer if you are seeing this kind of cratering if were due to pressures in the cartridge.

[.5mv^2]

Treeman: Normal tight chamber?

AUSglock: I thought you guys were only allowed to have bolt action or single shot rifles. I assume that you mean a half mm showing on the band.

Gefiltephish: I don't think so as the firing pin when flush in the back is flush at the chamber and relies on the kinetic energy to push the pin into the primer.

Appreciate the input of all.

Manley:I first believed that the firing pin channel was too big back when I first shot it in 2010. I disassembled the weapon and came up with clearance for the firing pin It was .005" I put a tapered pin into the hole from the chamber side and measured the diameter at the point that it fit and compared it to the diameter of the firing pin. To me .005" seems reasonable. I should do the same thing on another gun which doesn't exhibit the cratering.

[gefiltephish]

...Gefiltephish: I don't think so as the firing pin when flush in the back is flush at the chamber and relies on the kinetic energy to push the pin into the primer.

Appreciate the input of all.

I'm thinking of dwell time of the firing pin in the primer space. The longer the dwell time the greater the chance of the primer flowing around the head of the pin, even if it is only a dillionth of a second. Well, just a thought.

[.5mv^2]

Gelfil...
Ah dwell time. Something to think about. If the firing pin were too long wouldn't the primer strikes look pretty deep at lower pressure rounds?

Since some think that the gun is causing some pressure to be felt in the primers, it makes sense that something should be done to it to prolong the life of the gun.

Keltec says that there guns have a life of about 6000 rounds. It doesn't sound like a lot to me. I like guns and hate it when I break them.

I am thinking that a heavier recoil spring or some throating on the chamber might help.

[subsonic]

Gelfil...
Ah dwell time. Something to think about. If the firing pin were too long wouldn't the primer strikes look pretty deep at lower pressure rounds?

Since some think that the gun is causing some pressure to be felt in the primers, it makes sense that something should be done to it to prolong the life of the gun.

Keltec says that there guns have a life of about 6000 rounds. It doesn't sound like a lot to me. I like guns and hate it when I break them.

I am thinking that a heavier recoil spring or some throating on the chamber might help.

Never heard only 6000 for a PF9, but heard 500 for the P3AT. Didn't keep mine past 200 and had problems.

Would not buy another KT.

[ebner glocken]

I have a P11 here. Pretty much the same gun that holds ten. Same issues with primers, al that gets shot in it is +Ps. It is nothing to sweat. If it were mine I would shoot it and be happy as I do.

The gun gets carried alot and shot a little, about 2 mags full a month. Glad to hear it has a service life of 6000 rounds. At the rate I shoot this thing it should last 25 years. Perhaps at my retirement party someone will hand me a new keltec that shall last me the rest of my lifetime and then some. A pleasent thought.

Ebner

[fecmech]

Never heard only 6000 for a PF9, but heard 500 for the P3AT. Didn't keep mine past 200 and had problems.
Mine is on it's third life then as I'm north of 1200 rds at this point with my P3AT. After the initial failure at 23 rds and return to the factory it has been flawless since it's return.

[scrapcan]

two things to think about with the firing pin when looking at dimensions. one is the major diameter that matches the hole in the breechface, the other is the taper of the tip. if the taper is to great you can get flow around just the tip. If all of these do the same thing as many have mentioned, there must be an explanation and KelTec should be able to give that to you.

[MtGun44]

500 round limit for a P3AT? The is the silliest bunch of baloney I have heard in a while.

Mine has shot close to a thousand and has NEVER burped once. I can't see any reason
why it won't go many thousands more, except I don't practice with it very much any
more.

Bill

[Ausglock]

[QUOTE=.5mv^2;1574118]
AUSglock: I thought you guys were only allowed to have bolt action or single shot rifles. I assume that you mean a half mm showing on the band.

We can have handguns. But only for Target use. no CCW or Hunting.
Yes. 1/2 a mm.

[.5mv^2]

I get it manley and fecmec. The pin probably has something like a single radius curve on the end. So with the pin flush the pin is only a tangent leaving nearly the entire opening available to be pushed back on by the pressure behind the primer. I hadn't thought of that. Like the title I thought the gun has a timing issue. Maybe most Keltec PF9s do.

My gun is shooting with less, indeed almost no cratering with WSF.
http://veloliner.com/loading/twoprimers.JPG
I am getting about 950fps in the 3" barreled PF9 using 3.9 of it The overall length is .97" recessing the bullet somewhat like ausglock mentioned and lowered the charge. These bullets also shoot well in my glock and 9mm astra.

The funny thing is if there is high enough pressure to make the primer flow at the firing pin hole why doesn't it distort the peripheral part of the primer.

[9.3X62AL]

The funny thing is if there is high enough pressure to make the primer flow at the firing pin hole why doesn't it distort the peripheral part of the primer.

Supported breechface, while the firing pin hole (which I agree may be oversized) offers no such support. See also the nice radius left on the primer edges--doesn't seem over-pressured to me, just unsupported around the firing pin. I think fecmech called it early-on.

[.5mv^2]

Right on,
I just measured the photo and calculated the diameter of the bulge. It was .08" almost exactly the diameter of the of the firing pin hole.

http://veloliner.com/loading/twoprimersfiringpinchannel.JPG
Guess it is just a characteristic of the weapon. It sure makes the gun have weird primer hits. I like the way that the primers look now

[.5mv^2]

Oh just for reference Here is link from the KelTec web site showing the 6000 round figure that I quoted.


http://www.keltecweapons.com/faq/#nul (http://www.keltecweapons.com/faq/#nul)

[Ausglock]

G'day.

When I was shooting 9mm Major power factor open Glock 17, The primers were a lot worse than that. The stricker hole would shear off the primer flow and leave it in the stricker channel. Had to clean it our every 1000 rounds or so.

[subsonic]

500 round limit for a P3AT? The is the silliest bunch of baloney I have heard in a while.

Mine has shot close to a thousand and has NEVER burped once. I can't see any reason
why it won't go many thousands more, except I don't practice with it very much any
more.

Bill

Back when I was on KTOG, we were all having lots of issues with the P3ATs. People were "fluffin and buffin" and all kinds of stuff to get them to run. This was before the current generation of gun with the external extractor came out. People kept having frame failures where upon recoil, the frame would flex and the takedown pin would slide out of one side of the frame. Then all the load would be on just the one side of that tiny aluminum frame insert. Usually people would see it, and push it back it, but not always if you were in the middle of a magazine when it happened. It happened to me while shooting some 102gr Golden Sabers. I didn't see it, and by the time the mag was dry, the hole in the frame was egged out. Sent it back to KT. This frame insert has the serial number on it, so it's not an easy replacement. KT sent it back to me (came home and it was sitting in a USPS box on the porch). It came back just the same but with a stiffer spring to hold the takedown pin in. Frame still had the egged out hole and they said it was within tollerance. Anytime anybody had frame failures with a high round count the standard answer from KT was that they were only designed to go about 500-600rds. So most people would shoot them 200rds to check reliability and put them away. Mine was used very lightly when I bought it and I didn't get through 200rds before this happened. I didn't keep it much longer you might imagine. I liked the way it carried (like a wallet), but just couldn't have confidence in it with all the jams and the egged frame hole. Plus .380 from a tiny barrel is only slightly more powerful than a sling shot. Lot's of folks were doing the water jug and soaked newspaper tests and found that 8" of penetration was about all you could expect from a HP if it expanded and that solids just whizzed through like a pencil.

.38spl (especially +P) packs quite a bit more punch and a scandium gun is only a couple ounces more than the P3AT. And I think it will go more than 500rds.... ;-)

[MtGun44]

"Slightly more powerful than a sling shot."

Right. Whatever you say. I normally carry a .45 ACP 1911, but I am certain that
my P3AT in .380 in the few cases where it is what I have, will be reasonably effective,
clearly much more than a slingshot.

I wonder why my P3AT has a lot more rounds through it than 500 and no problems - and it
has the early extractor design, internal spring only? It also feeds every load I have tried,
which is most of them, and has never failed to function, including letting many other
folks shoot it with grip strength and hand sizes all over the map.

Sorry, but your experiences do not match with my experience at all.

Bill

[subsonic]

I'm glad you have had good luck with yours.

My statement of low power is a slight exaggeration, but have you chronographed yours?

[MtGun44]

No but others have and the velocity is about 850-875 in the short barrels, where it
would be closer to 1000 or even above in long barrels.

This is at or above .38 Spl velocities, and I alternate Win FP FMJ with Speer Gold
Dots. Wide, deep, wide, deep, wide, deep. I have no illusions that a micro .380 is
the ultimate SD firearm (which is why I 95% carry a .45 ACP), but there are many cases
that show that a couple of center hits with a .380 will kill effectively. Mostly, people do
not want to get shot at all and either avoid it entirely, or if shot once, run or quit.

Maybe I was just lucky to get a "good one", but my brother has one, too and has similar
experience. Reliable and hyper easy to carry.

Bill

[.5mv^2]

I have a LCP, the ruger clone of the P3at. Today I was running it with some hand loads and some factory FMJ.

My lead hand loads (105 g SWC) were in the 720 range and the 95 grain factory fmj's were in the 840 range.

I had an aluminum skillet for a target and only one of my hand loads penetrated, disappointing. Every FMJ blew through the 1/8" pan. Sure makes me think about ever keeping my hand loads in the gun.

My LCP is one of the first ones available and has had to to have a few factory updates. It shoots well although the rifling is quite rough probably the worst of any gun I own. The rifling is intact but there is numerous scratches or more precisely machining marks that run parallel to the rifling. I suppose I should shoot only FMJ to try and polish it.

I would agree that the 380 isn't much but 7 shots should be some sort of deterrent. I have a North american 22mag with a 3" barrel. It shoots through a 4x4 pine board with 30 grain Vmax rounds, with the plastic tips. They shoot at about 1350fps in my gun.

[subsonic]

Those are actually pretty good speeds for these guns. In my gun some factory HP ammo was down under 700fps. Good that you guys are at least testing and using the best you can. One o the best I found at the time was the 102gr Rem Golden Saber +P. But it's "snappy"....

[.5mv^2]

Here is what I was shooting.
Magtech 380 FMJ ammo (http://www.magtechammunition.com/sitepages/pid103.php?productId=446&ltemplate=details&templateId=14&pageId=103&search=details)
FMJ is the only factory ammo I carry in my 380. I doubt if a 90 grain 35 caliber bullet at 800 fps is enough to go very far when expanded to half inch, at 720 fps my 105 gr lead bullets wouldn't penetrate 1/8" of a cooking pan.

[NSP64]

just better hope the perp you shoot doesnt have his/her" cooking pan urban armor" on.

I prefer 1/8"cold rolled steel, but it is uncomfortable on the beach with my speedo.

[fecmech]

With my P3AT and the RD 100 gr bullet and 3.6/BE it's right at 900 fps. That's the trade off for a gun that's in my pocket ALL the time vs something at home when I need it because it's too heavy to carry everywhere.

[gray wolf]

Along with all the issues talked about,
the drag of the firing pin along the primer pocket is caused from the slide opening while the pin is still extended = ( timing )
Perhaps a stronger recoil spring to keep the slide closed another nano Sec.
Not likely but it could break a firing pin.
I would think for the crater on the primer, is your case going foreword when the pin hits it ? case not flush with barrel hood ?
Or a Cratered breach face ?
Or the Pin hits primer, case goes forward and comes back allowing the primer to fold around the firing pin?
I am just glad no one blamed the Magazine. Not yet anyway.

[subsonic]

It's the magazine.









[smilie=s: