44-40 Black Powder 300 Meter Shots (Marlin M-94)

[Hang Fire]

The targets are the steel javelina on bank 7 the 2nd distance out.
They stand at 300 meters (327 yards) from the muzzle.]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rbxvlQUkQfU&feature=player_embedded

[Dale53]

That's pretty impressive for the diminutive 44/40!

My 40/65 Sharps or Winchester highwall would make short work of those but it is hard to believe that a 44/40 would be that effective at that distance.

Dale53

[Boz330]

Like Dale said that was pretty impressive. Of course a rifle in good condition should be capable of that and he already had the wind doped since he said that he had already fired 50 rounds.
When I shot IPSC we shot on a handgun Silhouette range and after the matches we would try our 1911s at the 200 meter rams and it was amazing how accurate you could be once dialed in. And that was from a prone or supine position and guessing at holdover.

Bob

[cajun shooter]

That shooting was done by our own forum member John Kort whom I consider a very good friend.
He goes by 44-40WCF, W30WCF.
John has studied the 44-40 round for many years and he and I have had much talk about it and the bullets fired in it.
I designed the 43-210B Accurate Mould Bullet and John has the 43-215C bullet as his entry.
He shoots for the most part his original Marlin and shoots Swiss powder as his go to powder. He was kind enough to test my bullet for accuracy as I had some serious health problems that kept me from the range.
John is one of the most knowledgeable persons I know when it comes to the 44-40 round. Later David

[WARD O]

CAJUN SHOOTER

Do you know if he has a favorite primer for use in 44-40? We hear lots about the big calibers and primer choice but very little has been mentioned about their use in rifles of pistol caliber.

Ward

[Hang Fire]

That shooting was done by our own forum member John Kort whom I consider a very good friend.
He goes by 44-40WCF, W30WCF.
John has studied the 44-40 round for many years and he and I have had much talk about it and the bullets fired in it.
I designed the 43-210B Accurate Mould Bullet and John has the 43-215C bullet as his entry.
He shoots for the most part his original Marlin and shoots Swiss powder as his go to powder. He was kind enough to test my bullet for accuracy as I had some serious health problems that kept me from the range.
John is one of the most knowledgeable persons I know when it comes to the 44-40 round. Later David

Thanks for the information cajun shooter, glad you posted it.

[downwind]

CAJUN SHOOTER

Do you know if he has a favorite primer for use in 44-40? We hear lots about the big calibers and primer choice but very little has been mentioned about their use in rifles of pistol caliber.

Ward

Hello,
If you look under the video and select "show more" it will give you all the details of the load-- Remington 2 1/2 primers, Accurate mold replicating lyman 427 098 @ .429, 37 gr. Swiss powder, SPG lube.

Hope this was a help.:Fire:

DOWNWIND

[cajun shooter]

The information is true for that test but it's not a answer as to what John does all the time with different bullets. Where it states bullet that replicates Lyman 427098, he is talking about my bullet made by Accurate and is in the catalog as the 43-210 B.
John has done more testing than most persons that I know when it comes to the 44-40.
It is also my most favorite round to shoot with BP and I have tried several different loadings with many different powders.
I was hoping that John would have seen this posting and given you first hand information but I will tell you a few facts I know to be true.
His most favorite powder to use is Swiss in 2F along with the use of SPG lube.
He has just recently as I and others such as John Boy have tried the most recent KIK powder that is sold by Powder INC. and carries the lot number of 3910 with matching results. It shoots and cleans the same and is much cheaper.
We can only hope that this stands true for a while.
I was however told by Jerry (the owner of Powder Inc) that they have already set a higher price for 2012.Still many dollars a pound less than Swiss. 10 pounds of KIK 2F is about $165 to your door.
John also favors the use of his original Marlin to do most all his testing and it is with a 24 inch barrel. Later David

[WARD O]

Thanks for the information. It would appear that for this load anyway that the primer of choice is of milder/lower power.

I recently acquired the NOE mould 432-200 with the larger lube groove and am trying to establish a black powder load for my 44-40 Marlin 1894CL.

The writer Mike Venturino has in the past been a proponent of the CCI 350 Mag primer for this class of cartridge. This advice seems to go against the current practice of using milder primers in most BPCR matchs and events.

I will give the Remington primers a shot....

Ward

[oscarflytyer]

Awesome! Great shooting! I love being able to watch the muzzle smoke, then looking downrange and waiting for the steel to fall!

Reminds me of the time I was shooting irons with a 10 1/2" Ruger SBH 44 Mag at a 24" square steel plate. I was hitting it with 265 grn RNFPs, and two guys with scoped 30-30s couldn't hit it! I LOVED that! Ran them off the range! It was priceless!

[canyon-ghost]

That's really great!! Good shooting

[cajun shooter]

I have read Mike's books and all his article's for years. He is a very nice every day guy that has tons of information to share.
I don't understand his choice of telling people to use the magnum primer for any BP loads though.
Black powder ignites very easy as it burns from the outside in and the mildest of primer will set it off.
If you read about the loading practice of many top shooters in BPCR competition you will find that they even place a piece of paper over the primer area before dumping the powder load. This has proven to give better readings all over than when it is not used. It has improved down range results also.
The standard Remington LP primer is rated 14th on the primer Brisance Chart. The top primer is the Federal Match GM 215M and is followed in the order given
Rifle Primers
(2) Federal 215 LRM
(3) CCI 250 LRM
(4) Winchester WLRM
(5)Remington 9 1/2 LRM
(6) Winchester WLR
(7) Remington 9 1/2 R
(8) Federal Match GM210M
(9)Federal 210LR
(10) CCI BR2
(11) CCI 200LR
(12)KVB 7 LR Russian
(13) Rem 9 1/2
Pistol Primers
(14)Rem LP
(15) KVB45LP Russian
(16) CCI 300 LP
(17) Federal 150 LP
(18) Federal GM150M

[Chill Wills]

I have read Mike's books and all his article's for years. He is a very nice every day guy that has tons of information to share.
I don't understand his choice of telling people to use the magnum primer for any BP loads though.


cajun shooter,
I think when Mike V wrote that so long ago, that advice was the current thinking of the time.
If you talk with him now and ask him what he uses, I think he would tell you he uses a milder primer for his 45-90. CCI BR-II
For the Winchester 1892 class cartridges.... something mild too.

[cajun shooter]

Pyrodex and the other subs or play like powders are well known for a harder ignition than the real black powder. It will not even work in Flintlocks.
Goex has over the years made some good to great powders. To say you will not use it says that you have not done much research in it's different grades.
Hodgdon came in and discontinued one of the better powders made and that was the Cartridge grade.
Many a BPCR match was won with it it .
Kenny Wasserburger set national records with the Goex Express which was also discontinued by Hodgdon.
It seems as if they are on a destroy mission instead of a business improvement buy. It smells like a huge tax write off when the company folds to me.
That will be a national disgrace as they are the last American Black Powder maker.

[Sixgun Symphony]

The targets are the steel javelina on bank 7 the 2nd distance out.
They stand at 300 meters (327 yards) from the muzzle.]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rbxvlQUkQfU&feature=player_embedded

What kind of sights is he using?

My Cimarron 1873 carbine has a flip up sight that graduates out to 900 yards which seems to be very optimistic.

[cajun shooter]

Dalyoke, I'm sorry if I missed your age group but you in no way can compare yourself to John Kort who happens to be a friend of mine. John is a true historian of the 44-40 and other 19th century rounds. He also only uses the real Black Powder and has posted many findings about the test he has performed. I don't recall seeing anything in print from you sir.
In fact the video shown was John testing some new bullets that he and I designed for better long range results with BP and the 44-40 cartridge.
For you to make such a statement that BP is not as good as Pyrodex or 777 shows me that what you print and what you really know are quite different.
I will step back from making any further comments as I'm sure you have heard the line about arguing with fools. They will beat you with experience.

[WARD O]

Would anyone know what alloy is used here??

Ward

[John Boy]

I have tried them all at one time or other and always found Goex just as bad as its predecessor, Dupont BP.Dalyoke, I have various lots of DuPont going back to 1953 and Goex from 1977 when DuPont sold the Moosic plant.
* Except for the period when DuPont stopped using well water and had to draw their water from the municipal water system their powder was top notch. The period when water came from the municipal supply, it contained copper - powder quality was poor

* As for Goex, the Moosic powder was of poor quality too (the water) and then when they went to Minden because of OSHA violations and labor strikes quality went up and then down. The down was due to Roseville sent out of business and they had to find a new charcoal subcontractor. They did, a Canadian company for about 5 years. The charcoal was/is made from yellow maple which does not contain much sucrose or creosote. Ergo, poor powder.

I have shot many cans of the old Dupont before the water issue - no complaints. As for Goex, I depleted my inventory to zero except for Cartridge. I have shot many 200 -500 meter and 1000yd reloads with CTG and am pleased with it because the powder density is 0.902 (light and likes minimum compression). Plus the sieve ratio percentages are 20 mesh heavy:
Goex Cartridge – (0542) 07MY04B - May 2004
20 mesh – 98.46% retained
30 mesh – 01.54% retained
Through – Trace

Goex Cartridge – (05-37) 02OC07B
12 mesh – 0.62% retained
14 mesh – 0.03% retained
20 mesh – 97.54% retained
30 mesh – 01.70% retained
Through – 0.11%

But having analyzed and shot many different powder brands, neither DuPont or Goex are my go to powder. A 1973 vintage of Meteor made with the old Curtis's & Harvey and the new lot are KIK, and Swiss are the quality ones - pressure, SD's and overall processing

PS: I don't just shoot a couple of cans of each but for many brands - cases

[HPT]

I found graf powder better than Goex for "fouling out" in my muzzleloaders, has anyone tried Graf with the 427098?

[HPT]

HPT,

At least when Grafs started selling a BP under their name, perhaps 10 years ago, the powder was reported to be Schutzen from Europe. At least around that time Schutzen was given high marks as a superior BP. Republic Metallic Cartridge used it in their excellent traditional BP cartridges, at a lesser cost than Swiss. Reports from that time indicate performance close to that of Swiss.

So, without being able to cite a specific reference, it seems safe to say that Lyman427098 with Grafs relabled BP would have/will given/give excellent results.

There is one reservation that needs to be stated -- Lyman 427098 MUST be sized to match bore of your rifle -- kinda basic. Moulds for Lyman 427098 are not consistent in size of bullet they provide. Bullets from some can only be sized as large as 0.428, whereas many modern made and some older 44-40s are reported to have bores 0.429-0.432, even larger. In my personal testing of undersized 427098 bullets (0.427 in 0.429 bore) powder fouling of bore get bad much more rapidly, enough to negate excellent results that started this thread.

Dalyoke

I'm waiting on delivery of a new Rossi Puma 44 mag. I will slug it when it gets here and get some version of the 427098 mold on order. I'll try as many blackpowders as I can get a hold of & see what happens. Since it has less powder capacity than a 44-40 I wonder what kind of velocity to expect? Anyone tried the 427098 bullet & blackpowder in a 44 mag? Results?