Anyone ever try this...

[Marlin Junky]

The following is from an article by Paco Kelly and describes his method for removing the hardness on the noses of heat treated boolits:

"...The ones [boolits] I’m going to use for hunting I size and lube...then place them standing in water up to just above the shoulder and run the butane torch over the noses ...doesn’t take much...at the first sign of color change take the flame off...Let them cool slowly and the temper in the noses is gone for good expansion ...yet the body is hard."

How well does this work? It sounds like it would be pretty easy to melt the boolit noses unless lead also goes through color changes like steel. Correct me if I'm wrong but I think polished steel starts to change color at about 450F, but what about Pb?

[tanstafl10]

last week i ran a dozen 30 cal HP through this process, or at least i tried to do it. not sure of the outcome as far as changing the hardness because i have yet to test them. (by shooting, no hardness testor here)

not knowing what to expect, i melted the very edge of the HP on the first one. the rest came through the process keeping their shape, but i do not know if i annealed them enough. the 'color change' was qestionable since i am partially color blind. i did try to observe the change in shine as my indicator

[felix]

300 degrees. ... felix

[Marlin Junky]

300 degrees. ... felix

Felix,

WW metal will take on a brown cast at 300F?

MJ

[felix]

No, that is when it starts to loose its "temper", and that is what you want to happen. Don't exceed 450, though, because that is where the nose might begin to slump. I have no idea to check for this without using those special magic marker pens that change color based upon temp. Even then, the flame from the torch might give fake readings, so you'd have to paint the backside of the nose right at the water line. ... felix

[Marlin Junky]

No, that is when it starts to loose its "temper", and that is what you want to happen. Don't exceed 450, though, because that is where the nose might begin to slump. I have no idea to check for this without using those special magic marker pens that change color based upon temp. Even then, the flame from the torch might give fake readings, so you'd have to paint the backside of the nose right at the water line. ... felix

Felix,

What color change do you suppose Paco was talking about? I guess I'll have to wreck a few boolits to figure this out.

MJ

[3sixbits]

Let's pretend your alloy has no more than 0.25 percent arsenic and no less than five hundredths of one percent arsenic. You have to hold a temp of 464 degs for one hour before you quench in cold water. I want to see you stand any metal in water and put a torch on the nose of a bullet and get the temp needed to soften the nose. I guess this myth comes from folks that have never tried to do any annealing in water before? If you want bullets with hard bodies and soft noses why not use the molds that are made to do the job properly?

[carpetman]

alloies don't temper. That's why the reaction--what does what,how long a timeframe,how deep does it go etc etc is all anybodies guess. If you need nose expansion etc that must mean you are using to small a caliber. If you need more performance,get a jacketed bullet--it's not a crime. Yes you can do it with a cast bullet. Yes Abe Lincoln read by candlelight so we know it can be done. Wonder if ol Abe would do that today?

[Marlin Junky]

I want to see you stand any metal in water and put a torch on the nose of a bullet and get the temp needed to soften the nose. I guess this myth comes from folks that have never tried to do any annealing in water before? If you want bullets with hard bodies and soft noses why not use the molds that are made to do the job properly?

Instead of implying it isn't feasible which pretty much contradicts Paco Kelly's experience (assuming he's not simply BS'ing his readers), how about explaining why it's not practical?

Here's another thought... I've got a heat gun that'll light a paper match in about 4 to 5 seconds. Holding the nozzle vertically above the boolit's nose and applying hot air directly on the meplat doesn't even disturb the water that much. I'll give it a try after I heat treat some WW boolits to about 20 BHN.

MJ

[tanstafl10]

i love to tinker Carpetman, that is why i am in this 'game'!

this year i was having trouble seeing the deer and so left the M 94 45 Colt with my cast 260 grain SWC in the house and took a scoped 257 Roberts with Hornady SST's that i handloaded. long story short, i took a running doe with a neck shot at about 60 yards or so. a .25 entrance hole and a very round .50 exit hole.

GREAT performance on that Hornady, as advertised! my second thought was, "Gee, could i build a cast bullet to do that?" Probably do not need to b/c i till have 150 or so of the SST's (17 cents each several years ago), but i just want to see if i understand my equipment well enough to develop that kind of performance w/ cast.

Marlin Junky,

i used a torch, never thought of the heat gun that i use to warm the lubrisizer. thanks for the idea.

[wiljen]

I do that with some of my 45-70 bullets. I never noticed a dramatic color change, more like a subtle change in hue. It's still silver/gray but it is a visible difference at just below melting point. The other way to do it (instead of torch) is to stand bullets up in a pie pan full of water in the oven at 425 for an hour - just top off the water periodically.

[Buckshot]

...............In heat hardening, or temperring the heat needs to be held at the critical level long enough for the molecules to re-align or dis-align :-) whatever the heck is trying to be accomplished.

If it's a casehardening deal, only the top few tousandths is going to absorb any carbon so it's just the surface that needs to be heated. Through hardening steels like 4140 must be held for a time span related to the objects shape, mass, whatever. Then when it's drawn the same time requirement, maybe not the same length of time, but an amount again based on it shape, size, mass, whatever.

I have no doubt that the point of a propane torch could apply enough heat to melt the nose, at least locally, of a pistol boolit sitting in water. Simple to check with a lead hardness tester, or shooting them into a consistant medium like soaked phone books.

....................Buckshot

[Marlin Junky]

You can even solder a piece of sheet metal to the pan's lip, drill an array of holes in the top to hold the boolits, fill the pan with coolant and place the boolits in the holes. This way the boolits are held securely in place and the surface of the coolant is not disturbed at all by the heat gun or propane torch, for that matter.

MJ

[longbow]

There's another method of getting a softnose that is easy and pretty much predictable. Melt your chosen boolit alloy or wheelweights for hard body in one pot and melt pure lead or at least a softer alloy in another pot.

Use a small dipper like a cut off cartridge with a wire handle to pour a small amount of the soft lead alloy into the nose, then follow shortly after with the wheelweights/hard alloy for the body.

I did this 30 years ago for .45-70 with good results - good expansion but limited to the length of soft nose and controlled by the hardness of the alloy. I have also seen articles written in gun magazines about this - one by Ross Seyfried (Guns & AMMO June 1989) and one other either in a magazine or on the internet.

According to Ross Seyfried LBT used to sell special moulds for casting noses of soft alloy so they could be put into a standard mould after and the hard alloy poured on top.

Either way has got to be easier and more controllable than trying to anneal the noses.

Longbow

[piwo]

There's another method of getting a softnose that is easy and pretty much predictable. Melt your chosen boolit alloy or wheelweights for hard body in one pot and melt pure lead or at least a softer alloy in another pot.

Use a small dipper like a cut off cartridge with a wire handle to pour a small amount of the soft lead alloy into the nose, then follow shortly after with the wheelweights/hard alloy for the body.
Longbow

I've thought about just the opposite for conicals in the muzzleloader: Soft bases that would expand easily to seal, and hard tips. At .54cal, expansion is of no concern, penetration of a tough boned critter (maybe elk) could be enhanced. I'm sure regular soft lead would be fine, but that's what makes this stuff so much fun: the "what ifs"!

[leftiye]

The annealing could be done in a bath, but it would seem to need to keep the lead in the bath from getting too hot and not boil off. Plus, it would have to not bond to the lead or corrupt it. Anti freeze (pure) might just work, but it might only give you a few degrees hotter than water (it still evaporates even when not boiling). However, if you only have to go above 300 degrees to anneal, that's probably possible with the correct amount of direct flame on each boolit in turn.

Then what I see as the next possible problem is that the water will quench the heat out of the nose so fast that it might still be hard anyway. The bath might have to be held at boiling to keep this from happening, and it might still not work. There's a huge heat loss into the water even if the water is boiling.

You might could make special pliers to hold the rear of the boolit and keep it from getting too hot, and after heating the nose, then set it base down on an aluminum plate to draw off the heat.

[3sixbits]

Well it nice to see a few of you folks have a handle on this. I love it when people arm-chair quarter back. Take any piece of lead the length of the bullet you want to soften and hold the open end in your fingers apply a torch to the other end and melt the tip. Now after you pick up the dropped piece of lead place it in your pan of water and try again. For you folks out there that think you can beat the laws of thermal dynamics (heat travels to cold) Please post photos of your results.

[3sixbits]

Carpetman: "alloies don't temper" You need to think that one through! Ever firearm you own is made from an alloy, And you don't think that the steel is an alloy? Or you don't think that it's been heat treated?

[jhalcott]

A search of "softnose cast bullets" by a fellow named BruceB might give some Ideas to a few of you. I was trying to make a 2 part cast bullet in one mold. He figured a way to do this. It works for me,and I can't wait to see how it works on flesh and bone. Dramatic difference in terminal performance of the regular bullets of #2 alloy and the softnosed ones. Same mold SAME LOADS different results.

[versifier]

....and BruceB's method is a hell of a lot easier and more reliable. Save the water bath annealing for your brass.

[9.3X62AL]

The "Bruce B Method" of producing softnosed cast boolits seems like the most predictable and consistent route to controlled expansion castings I've read or heard about. The 9.3 x 62 and 45-70 are going to get some real shake-outs with these boolits over the next year or so. I might line up one of the heavy-for-caliber 30 caliber designs for the 30-06 as well.

[Marlin Junky]

The "Bruce B Method" of producing softnosed cast boolits seems like the most predictable and consistent route to controlled expansion castings I've read or heard about. The 9.3 x 62 and 45-70 are going to get some real shake-outs with these boolits over the next year or so. I might line up one of the heavy-for-caliber 30 caliber designs for the 30-06 as well.

Deputy Al,

I like the sound of Bruce's method and was planning to give it a try when I got side tracked somehow... probably due to that darn W word. I'd be interested in learning about your progress but for now, trying the annealing method just sounds straight forward and a bit simpler to me. With Bruce's method one needs enough space to set up two furnaces: one with soft lead and one with something harder. I can definitely swing that but it is more effort to get the process going and it sounds slower than casting, heat treating and annealing. I've already got a bunch of WW 30-180-FN's that will be heat treated in a couple days, so it's just one more easy step (maybe) to anneal the noses. Eventually, I shall see which method (Paco's or Bruce's) produces the most desirable results with the least effort.

Good luck,
MJ

P.S. Actually, the method described by Longbow in post #14 on page one of this thread is the same basic method detailed by Bruce.

[looseprojectile]

Versifier:
Iffen it works on brass why not on lead?
Happy shooting

[BABore]

Anealing the nose of a HTWW bullet is real easy to do. Stand the bullets up in a shallow pan (pie plate) and fill it up with cold water to just at or above the crimp groove. Put a drop of water on the nose (assuming it's a flat point). Heat the nose with a propane torch working both sides of the nose. When the water cooks off your there. Don't hit the drop of water directly with the flame. Leave the bullets standing up until cooled. A more consistent method is to get a 300 degree Tempil stick from a welding supply house.

I've tested 30 caliber annealed nose bullets in wet newspaper and they react like Nosler Partitions. Also tested them in one deer. Explosive expansion then the hard shank penetrates deeply.

I'm not much of a fan for casting softpoints, and yes I've tried it. Good way to warp and destroy a fine mold. Also, if the mold is casting "just" big enough normally, it's very likely to throw a smaller bullet from the excessive heat. No flaming, just my experience.

All of the above methods are trick and have there place, I guess. I've found that following 45 2.1 advise and mixing an alloy of 50/50 WW-Pb solves a lot of problems. When heat treated it hardens to 18-21 Bhn and still expands well above 1,400 fps. Not just riveting and small fragments, but real mushrooms that hold there shape well or fragment into one or two large petals. This alloy is also more accurate than straight HTWW's in every gun I own.

Here's a 458 caliber shot into soft pine logs. Velocity was 1,700 fps and range was 75 yards.

[45 2.1]

All of the above methods are trick and have there place, I guess. I've found that following 45 2.1 advise and mixing an alloy of 50/50 WW-Pb solves a lot of problems. When heat treated it hardens to 18-21 Bhn and still expands well above 1,400 fps. Not just riveting and small fragments, but real mushrooms that hold there shape well or fragment into one or two large petals. This alloy is also more accurate than straight HTWW's in every gun I own.

You need to try it in the magnum pistol cartridges with cast hollow points also.

[BruceB]

In the final routine which I came up with, we do NOT need two furnaces.

This is due to the fact that the 'seamless softpoint' bullet is made with a pure-lead nose which is allowed to freeze BEFORE adding the shank alloy. This also means that the pure lead portion can be precast as roundballs or smaller-diameter bullets of a weight we want in our softnoses. It can also be cast in the final shape from a dipper, drawing from a small container of molten pure lead floating in the top of the single furnace and adding it to the mould which will produce the final bullet..

After the harder alloy is added to the mould containing the already-frozen pure lead, the entire mould is put in contact with the melt in the furnace until the sprue re-melts, indicating that the contents of the the cavity are also molten. THEN the mould is allowed to cool, and once the bullet has solidified once more, a SEAMLESS softpoint is dropped from the cavity.

I prefer to work with known ingredients, and I KNOW that pure lead is as soft as it's gonna get, and I also know how it will behave on impact with the unfortunate herbivores at which I shoot. Annealing any other alloy will get us a resulting hardness which is no softer than its original state. I don't own a hardness tester, and still don't really see much need for one in MY shop. This is one more reason why pure lead is attractive to me...I KNOW its properties, without testing it.

There's a "sticky" at the top of the "Moulds, maintenance and design" forum which explains my softpoint research more fully, plus a photo of the results. Look for "Casting softpoint bullets from ANY conventional moulds".

[3sixbits]

That mold from LBT that does the soft nose and hard bodies looks like a lot of extra work and not all that easy. As an aside to this annealing bullets in water, brass does not anneal either in water. If it did don't you think the cartridge manufacturers would use this method. Seeing as how they have to anneal as many as six times during the making of a ctg?

[BABore]

As an aside to this annealing bullets in water, brass does not anneal either in water. If it did don't you think the cartridge manufacturers would use this method. Seeing as how they have to anneal as many as six times during the making of a ctg?

Your not annealing in water. The water level is set to a desired depth so only what sticks out is annealed. The water is used to keep the portion you want to stay hard, cool. There is some softening just below the waterline so you need to adjust it to get what you want.

[Marlin Junky]

Bruce,

Yes, I had forgotten about that method but am concerned about getting my molds that hot... especially the ferrous molds that hold heat longer than the aluminum ones. How many boolits can you cast in one hour with this procedure? When you were describing this method I think you posted some resulting boolits and I remember thinking that getting the molds hot enough to re-melt the alloy would result in frosted boolits but it didn't. In a production run of about a hundred or so would it be necessary to cool the mold with a wet sponge or towel between boolits?

MJ

P.S. What would be very interesting to me is discovering the temperature delta between the alloy and ferrous mold during a normal casting session. Is there a device that will accurately read the mold's temp for less than a C-note?

[Marlin Junky]

This one's for either BABore, or 45-2.1:

How much (if any) does the as-cast diameter change when using an alloy composed of 50%Pb/50% clip-on wheel weights opposed to plain ol' clip-on wheel weights and do you need higher melt temps with the softer alloy for complete fill-out?

MJ

P.S. Let's say in 5 to 10 years, when Pb based wheel weight are extinct, how are we going to prepare our boolit metal? Will a mix of pure Pb, Sb and Sn heat treat without arsenic?

[lovedogs]

Longbow's idea is a good one. I passed this info from Seyfried's article on to a friend who tried it last year. He said it was somewhat difficult until he got it figured out but since then he's used the soft-nose bullets and likes the results.

[3sixbits]

Here we go again. You can not beat the laws of thermal dynamics just because somebody's pet theory says you can. It just does not work, plain and simple. For a good discussion of annealing of ctg brass please refer to "CUSTOM CARTRIDGES" by Ken Howell. Please read chapter 4. If you have to get the temp to the 650 digs in the case of brass, what do you think your heat sink (water) is doing all this time? Has anybody out there in the real world ever tried to solder copper water pipe with water in it? Did it work? No it does not work, until the water is boiled off. The metal is a conductor of heat, the water is a much lower temp than the metal (brass or lead). "Heat travels to cold"! You can not control the temp that you need for annealing using this water method. Just try it one time and you'll never support this argument again (if your honest).

[Nueces]

Sure, it works (annealing brass standing in water), but you must apply a lot of heat quickly, to take advantage of the time it takes for heat to conduct down the case. An oven won't work, because you're heating 'everything'. A nicely applied torch does work, because it delivers heat only locally and enough of it to raise the neck's temperature before sufficient heat has time to travel down the case to cause damage. A heat gun can deliver a lot of heat, but likely not fast enough (never tried it, though). Below a critical heat delivery rate to the neck, too much heat will travel to the rest of the case before the neck reaches annealing temperature. Delivery rate must be high enough. Howell makes just this point in his Chapter 4.

Really, this is the same sort of dynamic used in torch welding - local heating to fusion temperatures, while the bulk of the piece remains 'solid.' Or in electronic soldering, holding a short piece of solder, which is melted at the end. Or in adding stick solder to a melt by dipping the right amount into the lead. You can heat a piece of rebar white hot at one end while holding the other, if it's long enough and the the torch is hot enough. Now, when you put it down and the heat travels the length, coming to equilibrium, you may not be able to hold it at any point, until it cools. If you dropped it into a quench medium right away, the temperature at the holding end would never rise much - because there is not enought time for that to happen.

Sorry about the wordy post. It IS, however, shorter than Chapter 4. :mrgreen:

Mark

[longbow]

I've thought about just the opposite for conicals in the muzzleloader: Soft bases that would expand easily to seal, and hard tips. At .54cal, expansion is of no concern, penetration of a tough boned critter (maybe elk) could be enhanced. I'm sure regular soft lead would be fine, but that's what makes this stuff so much fun: the "what ifs"!

You might be on to something there for less expansion but better penetration on big critters. I can't say I have heard or doing this but it makes sense for big bore like .54.

I have tried pure wheelweight minies in .58 with much the same idea in mind but accuracy was very poor so I didn't pursue it further. With a soft skirt things would likely have worked better.

What I can say is that the boolits I have cast with soft lead noses and wheelweight driving bands gave very good expansion and in the testing I did I had no failures between the soft and hard lead.

For your .54 minies with hard nose and soft skirt you might want to use soft lead up past the last grease groove and hard lead from there to the nose just so you didn't have the joint in a thin part of the skirt. You could even heat treat after for more nose hardness especially if the boolit has a large meplat.

If you give it a try let us know how it goes.

Longbow

[3sixbits]

Nueces: Ken Howell and I had this conversation long before his book saw print on this subject. As a long time wildcatter he was seeking my input on the subject ( I was using the glove and dip method at that time). We had a good laugh over the often repeated barb of standing the cases in water. The problem is controlling the temp correctly for the desired results, just the same with the glove and dip method. His ideas of using the crayon appealed to me as a student metallurgist as I'm color blind and using my touch pyrometer does not work for a hill of beans. I do not see why you can not hold a bullet in a bullet collet at the base and rotate the the bullet in the flame, I just want to know how you are going to figure you have reached the correct temp on the nose of the bullet. What a major pain it would be to do a hundred bullets that way, when the two part pour sounds like it will work without trying to reinvent the wheel. As far as using bullets that are long enough or cases long enough to make the standing in water method work, well my hats off to you!

[onceabull]

Can't help but remember that "Laughing guy at Sierra Ballistics"that got thrown into the extensive "discussion" re: projectile spin rates...!!!..:roll: Onceabull

[floodgate]

longbow:

The "hard nose / soft base" idea WAS used back in the early days of muzzle-loaded "picket" bullets in the Frank Wesson and other target rifles of the 1840's and 1850's; the idea was to get good obturation, but avoid slumping of the extended, non-"bore-riding" noses of those bullets. Ternary alloys of tin, antimony and lead were also well-understood - and used - even back then.

floodgate

[Nueces]

3sixbits - I was commenting only on cases, not bullets, and addresssing that part of your post in which you say:

"No it does not work, until the water is boiled off. The metal is a conductor of heat, the water is a much lower temp than the metal (brass or lead). "Heat travels to cold"!"

Yes, heat travels to cold, but it takes time. A 33 Winchester case is easily long enough to use this method, a 32 S&W case is not. As for judging the temperature, I'm also pretty color blind and the temp crayons are my method also.

I wonder if there is really a disagreement here.

Mark

[PatMarlin]

-subscribe-

[BABore]

3sizbits,

I thought I explained how I got to the correct temperature very well. You put a drop of water on the bullet nose or, for more precision, you use a 300 F Tempil stick. What your saying on how the heat conducts and is drawn toward the cooler surface is very true. There will be a heat affected zone that is in between the annealed hardness and the heat treated hardness. The water level has to be adjusted to get the nose softened where you want it. I have a hardness tester and access to a real Brinell tester. Hardness of the annealed portion and harder base were confirmed. Testing in wet newsprint was done with both OHT and annealed nose bullets side by side.

All of the theory, heresay, and second hand expert opinions are just great. Bottom line is just try it. In the time spent writing a lengthy dissent you could torch anneal several bullets, load them, and send them into some test media. Prove it to yourself. It's not hard and doesn't take that long to confirm. As far as volume and speed, who cares. I'm using annealed nose bullets for hunting. How many do you need? They shoot the same as the stock HT'd bullet.

Marlin Junky,

I have not seen any size difference between straight WW's and 50/50 WW-Pb. Common sense says there should be, but I can't measure it. I ladle cast at the same temperature as WW's, from 675-750 F depending on the mold. No fillout problems and I don't add any tin, seldom flux, and skim & toss the dross during casting. You can cut the WW's with either Pb or range scrap that has a goodly amount of 22 cal bullets in it. You can also add some hardened shot to boost the arsenic content if needed. When I get into a new batch of alloy, I'll WD a couple bullets and measure their hardness to see if the ability to harden is there. It still takes the normal 2-7 days to reach full hardness like WW's, but there is a certain amount of hardening that takes place immediately after quenching. This is measured, noted, and compared. Only looking for the hardening ability at this point. I sort all my WW's between clip-ons and stick-ons and smelt seperately. Alloying is done in the casting pot. In the future I would probably use 2% antimony, 0.5-1% tin, 0.25-0.5% arsenic and the remainder lead. Heat treat a few and look for 18-21 Bhn. You can vary from the 50/50 mix to achieve the hardness range you want 60/40, 40/60, or what ever. Just got to try/test it and see what works best for your shooting. I'm shooting it from 1,000 to 2,500 fps.

[Marlin Junky]

In the future I would probably use 2% antimony, 0.5-1% tin, 0.25-0.5% arsenic and the remainder lead.

BABore,

Sounds like a good alloy, but how would one control the arsenic after Pb based wheel weights are long gone? Chilled lead shot is expensive and also an endangered species.

MJ

[BABore]

Someone can probably correct me, but I believe Magnum lead shot has a pretty healthy arsenic content. Other than that maybe check with the Antimony Man. WW's will probably disappear first, since your only going to use half the amount, be thankful. Try it out first and see what you think before getting all doom and gloomy.

[Marlin Junky]

Someone can probably correct me, but I believe Magnum lead shot has a pretty healthy arsenic content. Other than that maybe check with the Antimony Man. WW's will probably disappear first, since your only going to use half the amount, be thankful. Try it out first and see what you think before getting all doom and gloomy.

"Doom and gloomy"? Not me... I've got a couple good decades of casting left in me and I'm simply preparing for the inevitable nationwide government control on lead.

MJ

[A Nimrod]

Does anyone know of any brass mines ?

[Marlin Junky]

Brass is an alloy of copper and zinc.

MJ

[longbow]

Floodgate:

Now that you mention it I do recall reading about paper patched boolits for muzzle loading slug guns using a had nose and soft body so they would slug up to fill the rifling, keep the nose from slumping and minimize nose deformation during ramming.

They had a few tricks back then.

[leftiye]

BaBore, Thank you, that needed to be said. Someone else here said that you cannot beat the laws of thermodynamics just because it goes against someone's pet theory. Neither can you ignore fact as experienced by another just because it goes against your pet theory. I was originally of the opinion that the lead would be cooled too fast by the water to ever reach 300 degrees. That actually might be true, who knows. But apparently something happens to the heated noses that results in them becoming softer. The challenge is to explain observed phenomena, not to argue that it couldn't/ didn't happen.

[Nueces]

The challenge is to explain observed phenomena, not to argue that it couldn't/ didn't happen.

Well said, Sir.

Mark

[pdawg_shooter]

I cast a lot of my hunting bullets with a pure lead nose and a lynotype body. tales 2 pots and a dipper made fron a 22RF case filed to the right length. Works great.

[357maximum]

BaBore is giving it straight up...do not believe me...simple test...do it...I did mine in a stainless pan for use under fancy housplants. Try what he says IE the water and torch...then heres where it gets scientific....take an annealed boolit and one not annealed sit them both down on concrete and hit them both squarely with a hammer with somewhat equal force......one will mushroom alot mo betta.....I ain't no labcoat, but empiracle evidence is hard to ignore...

personally I use the 50/50 wd ww/pure and do not fuss with the two part boolits no more......I had a Mt moulds 359-185 mould specifically for softnoses...I sent it to australia...I much prefer the simple 50/50alloy deal to the burnt fingers...and it kills deer dead with nice performance.

Michael