1917 Enfield

[George Tucker]

Was the Millatary 1917 Enfield ever chambered in 30-40 Krag by the Army,?. thanks George.

[Ben]

George

Not to my knowledge.

By that point in time, our US military had their mind on things, BUT, it wasn't the Krag round.

[leadman]

The same rifle was chambered in 303 British and called the 1914. 30-40 has been used in 303 chambered guns. I have done it so I don't know if needs to be fireformed or not.

I have guns chambered in both cartridges do will have to look at it now out of curosity.

[George Tucker]

Thanks Guys, George.

[Multigunner]

The .30-40 case length is a bit greater than that of the .303, and the shoulder of the .303 is further forwards than the shoulder of the .30-40.
Ordinarily unaltered cases from one would not fit in the other.

.30-40 cases can be and often were trimmed and fireformed for use in .303 rifles in the past, mainly by handloaders who wanted a cheaper source of boxer primed cases.

The Military manuals for the Krag rifles usially give rim thickness as .060, but this is an average, rims varying in thickness as much or more than those of .303 ammo.

A chart of .30-40 Krag rim thicknesses I may still have showed rims as thick as .068 for ammunition from smaller manufacturers. Remington and Winchester brass available today usually has rims less than .060 for either cartridge.

When thicker rim Krag cases were available these were sought out by handloaders of the .303, especially target shooters.

A .30-40 chamber might have the shoulder area reamed out enough to accept the .303 case, and a .303 chamber could be altered by increasing the length of the neck, to allow either round to be fired.

There are concerns with using a cartridge and chamber combo where the neck does not reach the end of the chamber neck.
The "Kort Nek" 7X53mm cartridge when fired in the standard 7X57 chamber could shed a ring of jacket metal from the bullet when fired.
The Boers added a thick grease near the case mouth of the Kort Neck cartridges. The grease being incompressible prevented the bullet base from expanding into the gap left by the too short neck.
A similar situation when .38 ACP cartridges were fired in a .38 Special chamber is said to have damaged or desytroyed some revolvers.

The difference in length between the .303 and the .30-40 is about half that of the 7X53 and 7X57. .303 cases have been resized (shoulder set back) for use in .30-40 rifles.

PS
From remarks made by Townsend Whelen and others, they may have gauged early production M1917 bores by Krag standards, which could be where the claim that M1917 barrels were rechambered .303 barrels came from.
Krag barrels were usually around .3095-.310. A good deal tighter than British acceptance standards for .303 barrels which normally range from .313 to a maximum of .319. Undersized .303 bores are occasionally found but far more run towards the upper limit.

[madsenshooter]

Actually, unaltered .303 will fit in a 30/40 chamber. The camming action of the bolt will form the shoulder back if it has been annealed. There were times when .303 was hard to find in the US and some folks answer was to rechamber to 30/40, and either ammo could be used, since headspacing is on the rim. I have seen Ross rifles done this way.

[DIRT Farmer]

Multigunner I have a Winchester marked barrel that has .313/.314 grouve diamiter and the bore is .302. I thought it was junk but have found it willshoot fairly well if the casting is sized up for it. I doubt it was worn enough to get the readings I got.

[Ed in North Texas]

snip
A similar situation when .38 ACP cartridges were fired in a .38 Special chamber is said to have damaged or desytroyed some revolvers.
snip

PS
From remarks made by Townsend Whelen and others, they may have gauged early production M1917 bores by Krag standards, which could be where the claim that M1917 barrels were rechambered .303 barrels came from.
Krag barrels were usually around .3095-.310. A good deal tighter than British acceptance standards for .303 barrels which normally range from .313 to a maximum of .319. Undersized .303 bores are occasionally found but far more run towards the upper limit.

Regarding short necked cases, might .38 Short Colt fired in a .38 Special chamber result in the same problem and, being a rimmed case, be far easier to mix up and fire in a .38 Special revolver than .38 ACP?

M 1917 barrels: The other explanation, from years ago, was that the P-14 rifles were already in production (and were the basis for the Remington recommendation to the US Govt that they could get rifles into production much, much faster than gearing up to produce the '03). Whether an excess of .303 dimensioned barrels, or no immediate change to the machinery, it seems equally, if not more, likely that the prior .303 production was responsible for barrel diameters which slug out to .312 to .314 than using .30-40 dimensions fully 15 years after the last Krag, and 11 years after the 1906 change in .30 caliber 1903, rifles were produced by Springfield Armory. I suppose a number of Pattern 14 rifles should be slugged to see if they run on the smaller end of British acceptable dimensions, rather than the larger. Or was your last sentence about .303 bores tending to the larger size of acceptable bore range speaking only to Pattern 14 barrels and not Nos 1 and 4 Enfield barrels? Just my $0.02.

Ed

"Or was your last sentence about .303 bores tending to the larger size of acceptable bore range speaking only to Pattern 14 barrels and not Nos 1 and 4 Enfield barrels?"

Actually, in re-reading that sentence, it makes far more sense if I had reversed it, that is "...speaking only to Nos 1 and 4 Enfield barrels and not Pattern 14 barrels?"

[curator]

I have a Winchester P14 .303 British that slugs right at .303/.312 and a Remington M1917 .30-06 that slugs exactly the same. I had our old friend Mr. MacKagen do the measuring of the slugs with his V-micrometers. Both have 5 groove left hand twist rifling. Neither seem to be particularly worn. I shoot the Lyman #314299 in both with good accuracy.