second reloading set up?

[Steel185]

I load 45ACP everyday 100-200 rds, i shoot about 100 at least once a week, twice when i can. I store the rest. All off my Hornady LNL. I also have a RCBS turret for revolver and lever action rounds that do require that many rounds. I recently bought an AR-15 and trying to layout my plan to reload I need some advise.

Should i convert the LNL to .223 and back and forth when needed to produce .223? I ran most of the numbers and its $120 once you get the dies, shell plate, case feed plate, and extra bushings. Plus anything else i might need (new to neck rifle reloading).

I could get a Lee progresive, load master or Pro1000 and just use it for .223. $153 ready to go for .223

get a Pro1000 basic model ($84 + dies) and just use it to run the brass through (deprime, resize, prime, expand) then finish each round at the turret?


What makes the most sense? looks like its around the same $, or am i missing something completely?

[Kevin Rohrer]

It depends on how much you want to spend and how much time you have to convert from one cartridge to another.

My suggestion is to get a Dillon 550B or 650 for the .223, which will allow you to reload other calibers in the future. Keep your options open.

[Ickisrulz]

May I ask why you are loading and storing 7-14 times the ammo you are shooting? How long do you plan on doing this?

[Steel185]

i didn't think about it that way. I was loading and shooting that day, but was able to get ahead of it and all of a sudden i had a lot. Are you suggesting that i switch over to .223 and stay with the LNL?

[garym1a2]

I have a loadmaster and would not buy one, I think they STINK! I think the pro 1000 are only for hangun ammo and have never used one. The lee classic cast turrent press is a great press and I can load 150 to 180 45 ACP rounds per hour on it.
Problem to watch on .223 is if you use range pickup brass a lot of them are crimp in primer and some are Berdan primers and they can cause fits on a progressive. Another thing is when I load .223 I only run them thru a press twice with fmjs. Once to size on up stroke and prime on down stroke. I charge off the press with the Lee perfit powder measure, than the second time thru the press seats the bullet. This I use the single stage press. Since I don't know your qty/month its hard to say get a progressive for .223 if you only load a hundred a month.
For whats it also worth I think a Dillon 550 is a great press. I checked out my brothers and its very solid and the priming system works.



I load 45ACP everyday 100-200 rds, i shoot about 100 at least once a week, twice when i can. I store the rest. All off my Hornady LNL. I also have a RCBS turret for revolver and lever action rounds that do require that many rounds. I recently bought an AR-15 and trying to layout my plan to reload I need some advise.

Should i convert the LNL to .223 and back and forth when needed to produce .223? I ran most of the numbers and its $120 once you get the dies, shell plate, case feed plate, and extra bushings. Plus anything else i might need (new to neck rifle reloading).

I could get a Lee progresive, load master or Pro1000 and just use it for .223. $153 ready to go for .223

get a Pro1000 basic model ($84 + dies) and just use it to run the brass through (deprime, resize, prime, expand) then finish each round at the turret?


What makes the most sense? looks like its around the same $, or am i missing something completely?

[bigjason6]

I use my lnl AP for reloading 223 and .40s&w, takes me about 20 minutes to do a changeover. That includes changing the parts for the powder measure. Usually it's best to do full length sizing for rifle brass on a single stage or turret press. But if you're just neck sizing, go progressive all the way through!

[Steel185]

bigJason6 do you have the case feeder? i wondered how long it took to change all that out, but it can't be much longer. I've been told that an AR needs full length sizing. I plan on doing full length on the LNL if i go that route.

[bigjason6]

bigJason6 do you have the case feeder? i wondered how long it took to change all that out, but it can't be much longer. I've been told that an AR needs full length sizing. I plan on doing full length on the LNL if i go that route.

I don't have the case feeder yet. I think all you really have to do is change the sorter plate out and maybe make a couple minor adjustments to the mechanism. You're right on the full length sizing for the ar, just make sure you lube your cases well.

[Ickisrulz]

i didn't think about it that way. I was loading and shooting that day, but was able to get ahead of it and all of a sudden i had a lot. Are you suggesting that i switch over to .223 and stay with the LNL?

You said that you load 100-200 rounds each day and shoot 100-200 rounds per week. Is this not what you meant?

Personally I'd just get the equipment to swap calibers and schedule my loading so I didn't have to swap all that often. That being said...I use single stage equipment. If I had a progressive I might think differently.

[buck1]

pro 1000 in .45 acp . lnl for .223. thats what i would do.....

[blikseme300]

Don't go the Lee route for 223.

I have a number of Lee Pro1000's but I no longer use them. The Loadmaster is gathering dust also.

I switched to the LnL AP outfitted with the case and bullet feeder. The part like the most is that I can remove or add the dies as needed. I deprime first without loading. After cleaning and annealing the brass I load.

The case feeder is a good investment, IMHO.

Bliksem

[buyobuyo]

Switching out the LNL will be pretty involved. You pretty much have to swap out every part of the case feeder system to go from .45 to .223. Along with changing over the rest of the press. I have to do the same thing to switch from 9mm to .45. I did it for the first time a couple of weeks ago, and it took me about an hour. Hopefully, it gets faster.

If it were me, I would strongly consider picking up another turret head for the RCBS. I do a lot of case prep for my rifle loading, so I load mine on a single stage. I size, tumble to remove lube, and then trim/chamfer/debur, uniform the primer pockets, debur the flash holes, and swage out the primer crimp. Next is priming, followed by powder and bullet seating.

If you do stick with the LNL, I would suggest running the cases through and just size them. Do all your other case prep, and then run them back through for priming, powder, etc. If you tumble them to remove the lube, run a universal decapping die in station 1 to guarantee that the flash holes are clear.

[DaveInFloweryBranchGA]

I load 45ACP everyday 100-200 rds, i shoot about 100 at least once a week, twice when i can. I store the rest. All off my Hornady LNL. I also have a RCBS turret for revolver and lever action rounds that do require that many rounds. I recently bought an AR-15 and trying to layout my plan to reload I need some advise.

You're shooting about 400 rounds a week or eight 50 round boxes a week. This would easily justify a caliber conversion for the Hornady LnL progressive you have if that's the number you are planning to reload for the .223, but it isn't. A more useful number would be how much do you plan on shooting the AR15, where you'll need longer ranges to shoot at. If it is an equivalent number, it would easily justify a caliber conversion. Also, rather than building a 100 cases, I would build several thousand or more at a time of the .45ACP Why? Convenience and efficiency. By doing large batches, you make your progressive much more efficient (like any other production machine) and make a quantity you can use for a while. While you're using that quantity up, you can use the press to reload other calibers, such as the .223.

Should i convert the LNL to .223 and back and forth when needed to produce .223? I ran most of the numbers and its $120 once you get the dies, shell plate, case feed plate, and extra bushings. Plus anything else i might need (new to neck rifle reloading).

Before you get too far into buying case feed plates since you don't own a case feeder, I would figure out how much .223 I'm going to shoot or how much I want to store. If I wanted to shoot a lot or store a lot, I would buy the caliber conversion. Why? Because the LnL is one of the easier presses to convert (excepting the case feeder portion) I would not buy another press. If I wanted to make a lot of .223, I would make it in large quantities (1000 or more at a time) and store it. Even with quantities that large, a case feeder really isn't needed. Remember, with rifle cartridges, you have to

I could get a Lee progresive, load master or Pro1000 and just use it for .223. $153 ready to go for .223

While I really like Lee's Classic Cast single stage and Classic Turret, most folks are ill advised to get the Lee progressives. They take a significant amount of mechanical aptitude (and work) to get and keep running. Why subject yourself to this when you already have a Hornady LnL, a fine progressive, sitting on your bench.

get a Pro1000 basic model ($84 + dies) and just use it to run the brass through (deprime, resize, prime, expand) then finish each round at the turret?

Now this may have some value, but don't forget to figure trimming into the equation at least one time. You can use a X-die after the first trim, but the brass still has to be trimmed and priming is one of the known major problem areas of this press.

What makes the most sense? looks like its around the same $, or am i missing something completely?

Sometimes it isn't just the dollars. It's the associated headaches. Based on quantities, efficiency and etc., you'd be better off just buying a caliber conversion without buying a case feeder. You may want to consider a case feeder and a bullet feeder when the quantities you're shooting exceed a thousand a month for .223. Right now, based on your numbers and extrapolation (sure fire wild reared guessing), I think you'll end up being happier with a caliber conversion.



Just my .02,

Dave

[Steel185]

Thanks Dave, that helps a lot. I do have the case feeder, but essentially it doesn't make a different in your logic. I think i will go with the conversion for the LNL. I have a little over 1K 45acp stored up so i have time before i'm out. Now i just have to figure out how to work triming the brass into the "system". I don't have a trimmer, I'll start piecing it all together.

thanks everyone

[milprileb]

When you get to the stage where switching parts of a progressive press to go from one caliber to another becomes work, tedious and irritating, ... you have made the decision to buy another progressive and dedicate such presses to specific calibers.

You face having your bench become a rain forest of presses, need to expand bench space, push out walls, etc.

When speed and convenience take over the bench, the second order effects are endless.

Production: its seductive.. faster and faster and at some point , you put brakes on it and decide to wave off or you become a factory.

[milprileb]

CO AX, Rock Chucker, Herters Super O, Dillon 450, Dillon 550, Lee turret press... Thundering Coyotes, I can't move and am surrounded by presses dedicated to specific production needs. How in blazes did I end up here !!

[cheese1566]

Try the LNL and convert. My first press was a Hornady ProJector and I used it for everything. Changeover isn't that bad....but I don't have the new fancy upgrades of bullet/shell feeders though. I think after using the Hornady you might regret the Lee purchase. Just my opinion.

I have 5 progressives now thatI have come across in great deals and projects cleaning up. I wonder if I really need that many considering my first paragraph and my bench space is becoming crucial.

It is nice though having a dedicated equipment!

[garym1a2]

Don't forget a lot of .223 brass has crimp in primers and some have berdan primers, you need a concept to deal with them. This slows me down a lot, else .223 is a very simple round to load with J-bullets.

[W.R.Buchanan]

Or you could sell the LNL and probably get nearly enough to buy a Dillon 650 and still use your case feeder to boot. You'd be money ahead to just stop and do it over right. I won't even speculate that you'll be much happier, I know you will.

The Dillon is much faster to change over, and a much more friendly piece of machinery.

Sometimes you just have to stop what you are doing, and regroup. When you find out you have gone down a wrong or bumpy road or that your needs have changed it is usually worth the effort to just turn around and go back to the junction and go down the right road. This is certainly true of your machinery right now.

I understand production very well as that is what I do in my machine shop. I will scrap a complete setup on a machine when it proves to be a PITA, and move the job to another machine just to make the job run easier or better. It will cost me the time and effort to re-set up but in the end I will come out ahead with both better product and less effort. In fact I just did this exact thing last Saturday and it resulted in my not having to work on Sunday..

The LNL is no match for a Dillon 650 a far as user friendliness, speed of changeover , and most importantly speed of production. I would easily expect the Dillon to out produce the LNL by at least 2:1, and do it consistantly with fewer problems and less head aches. They are a joy to use just like every other Dillon product.

Changeover to .45 acp from .223 would be less than 10 minutes and if tooled correctly you would just start loading with no adjustment whatsoever. You can't argue with this approach.

You'll be money ahead believe me and you won't hate using the machine, which is really where you are at right now. This should be a fun thing for you to do, and with what you are using it just sounds like work.

Just my .02 but if you read enough posts about machinery here at this site you wil see what I am talking about. Dillon has a reputation which is exemplary, and they didn't get it by accident. I feel as far as progressive presses go there is little reason to go anywhere else.

"They are just that good" to quote Triple H.

Randy

[Steel185]

I have 5 progressives now thatI have come across in great deals and projects cleaning up. I wonder if I really need that many considering my first paragraph and my bench space is becoming crucial.

It is nice though having a dedicated equipment!


if you have an extra machine maybe we should talk?:smile:

[Steel185]

Or you could sell the LNL and probably get nearly enough to buy a Dillon 650 and still use your case feeder to boot. You'd be money ahead to just stop and do it over right. I won't even speculate that you'll be much happier, I know you will.


switch to Dillon? I don't have any problems crossing color lines, was a chevy guy for years and i drive a Ford now, couldn't be happier. Its just that Dillon equipment seems expensive, simular in a way to Hornady. I'll look into in and see. I didn't think LNLs are selling for that much? Isn't a new 650 Dillion $550 or so? and thats just the base model? I don't think i could sell my LNL for that much or more. How exactly would i be money ahead? I'd do it if i could get my money to go farther, but if i have to spend $300 to get it going and another $100 to change to a second caliber, i might as well just convert the LNL to both.

[W.R.Buchanan]

steel: the money ahead factor is both in direct costs and indirect costs and the cost of frustration and how it effects your production.

Whether we like it or not , "time is money" When you have to mess with something to get it to work, it is costing you. It all comes down to cost per round, which is the direct dividend of rounds per hour.

The Dillon machinery is so trouble free that your time is spent on usable production instead of fighting the machine.

Change overs back and forth between your calibers conversions, can be as little as 5-10 minutes gate to gate. If you tool up completely with a powder measure on each die plate that is set at your preferred load, then all you have to do is change the tool plate and the shell holder plate and start pulling the handle. All adjustments are built into the tool plate so there is nothing to adjust. You literally change the two items and start loading.

This obviously is easier and quicker than the Hornaday machine, and it saves you time.

The Dillon equipment will probably cost you a little more, but in the end it will pay for itself in reduced frustration and down time. Over many thousands of rounds of ammo loaded this cost will soon be forgotten and all that will come forward is how efficient the Dillon machine is in relation to the other one. This is where you start making money.

Believe me I am not knocking the LNL. They are good machines, however the Dillon machine is just a better machine for what you need to do.

IF we did a poll here, on the two machines you would surely see the difference. Virtually everyone who loads truly large amounts of ammo uses Dillon equipment.

I just got a Natchez Shooters Supply catalog in the mail. Reg price on a new LNL is $449.47+ $29.99 for a shell plate. The Dillon 650 is $566.95 with one caliber conversion. The Hornaday case feeder is $268.99 and the Dillon one is $218.95. A complete toolhead changeover for the Dillon is $107 including a powder measure. (you use your existing dies which yo do with either.)

So it is $750 for the Hornaday, and $786 for the Dillon. $36 difference.

The $107 changeover for the Dillon is where you start picking up nickles and dimes.

But the operational time, downtime with problems, and changeover time is really where you start making money. Eventually you would eliminate the changeover time by having dedicated machines for each caliber. You want the right machines and you want all the same brand for interchangability of parts etc.

Ammo costs you money, no matter what. If you buy new it is X$, if you reload it is Y$, however with Y you must include your time just like they did at the ammo factory (overhead). Irrespective of what anyone might think their time is worth something. When you include an honest estimate of what your time is worth added to the cost of components then you get a true idea of what reloading is actually costing you per round.

For a true idea of what your time is actually worth while reloading, hire somone to do it for you. It will cost you at least $10-15 per hour to hire even a Mexican(assuming you can find one that knows how to reload) to stand there and pull the handle. I personally would not trust a Mexican to load ammo for me as they usually have less than the high degree of personal responsibility needed for that discipline, but whatever? You get the picture.

In your position of loading and shooting that much ammo, the loading part is, in fact." just work." It is not the enjoyable past time we all like to think it is, it is just work that you have to do in order to shoot. The cost per round including your time should be less than factory ammo hopefully. If it isn't, then Wal-Mart is starting to look good. You will pay what it costs to shoot or else you won't shoot, that is the high cost of entertainment today. But it will cost you less overall with the Dillon Machinery than it will with the Hornaday Machinery. It is simple arithmetic to add up all the costs, and see what is cheaper to produce a usable product, (including how many rounds per hour you yeild with both machines.)

Nobody that is making large amounts of ammo is using a LNL progressive. The down time to keep them running would just be too high. They are using either Dillon 650's or 1050's. Go to the Dawson Precision Website (google) and watch their video of their Ammo room in action. They have Dillon 1050's with motor drives on them pumping out ammo at the rate of about 1 per second. The only way to go faster is with an "Ammomaster" fully automated loading machine costing $25-30K. (they yeild about 6000 rnds per hour.)

A buddy of mine has an automotive machine shop here in town. There is a sign over the door that pretty much tells the tale.

"Speed costs money. How fast do you want to go?"

So how fast do you want to go? Pay me now or pay me later is the rule that governs us all.

You always have to look at the big picture, if you are going to play in the big game.

Randy