loads for Win 1892 in .38 wcf ???

[moptop]

My brother just bought a nice Winchester model 1892 chambered in .38 WCF
(.38-40). For its age the bore is in decent condition and the action is smooth as silk. My question is can smokeless powder be used in loads for this rifle or is it Holy Black only? As best we can find by serial number searches is this rifle was manufactured in 1895.

This is a gray area for me since all of my arms are more modern except for my Win 1890 in .22lf. I know my brother is just chompin at the bit to shoot this thing. I just what to make sure I don't endanger us, the rifle, or both by assuming and shooting it with the wrong powder.

Thanks in advance for the help!

[tacklebury]

In my 1881 Marlin 40-60 it's only real BP! It's what it was made for and I figure if it's made it 131 years with no problems, might as well keep er going. ;)

[Boerrancher]

I wouldn't be surprised if it wasn't a smokeless powder gun from the get go being made in '95. I have seen a lot of the old original 92's in use with smokeless powder. Just don't try and load 44 mag loads in it, but it should easily handle any modern load listed in the reloading books for it. There is no reason to not shoot both the Holy black and smokeless loads out of it. I do both out of my '66 yellow boy in 44WCF, and I can promise you that the 66 is a great deal more frail on the day it was made than that 92 is today. For smokeless just don't exceed the CAS loads and you will be fine.

Best wishes,

Joe

[KirkD]

I have a copy of the 1896 Winchester catalogue. They list both black powder and smokeless cartridges for the 38-40 (38 WCF). I have had a few different original 38-40's and shot smokeless in all of them. Right now, I have an original Model 1873 38-40 that I shoot smokeless in. Here are a few loads that give velocities similar to original black powder loads:

17.5 grains 5744 under a 180 grain cast bullet for 1,331 fps

13.5 grains 2400 under a 180 grain cast bullet for 1,320 fps

17.5 grains of SR4759 under a 180 grain cast bullet for 1,305 fps

All of these loads will be perfectly safe in your original 1892.

[JayinAZ]

What a timely thread, as I just put a 1908 vintage '92 in .38 WCF on layawake today myself :) It has been refinished, but it was done very well and the bore is beautiful. Thanks for the data KirkD.

[stubshaft]

Might want to consider Trail Boss for starting loads as it generates low pressures.

[VA Jim]

I've been using 9 gr.of unique with 180 gr. cast bullet in mine for the last 20 years. Accurate, fun load. My 92 was built in 1895 as well.

[moptop]

Many, many thanks to all of you! I couldn't have asked a better response. I had my suspicions that this rifle didn't have many BP loads shot through it. The crown and bore just don't have much of that tell tale sign of corrosion and pitting like you find on other known BP only arms. The mechanism is clean an works too smoothly to have had a steady diet of Holy Black. I've got some pictures but I have to reduce their size before I can post them, possibly later today.

Thanks again for all your input. It is greatly appreciated.

[moptop]

Thanks again to all who steered me in the right direction. I picked up the necessary components and dies today and loaded up so rounds for the 1892 winchester my brother aquired a few weeks ago. After some extensive research I decided to go with Trailboss powder. It is very bulky and 5 grains almost fills a
.38-40 case. I know there other powders that will work but they get position sensitive with small amounts in a big case. I used a Mo bullet Co. 180grn LRNFP .401 and it worked great. Yes, they are touchy when it comes to crimping them. I ruined the first one, it rolled it instead of crimping. COAL is also an important issue for correct feeding.

Well it was a success! The first 5 we shot at 30 yards and it put them right where we were aiming, in the center. My brother is thrilled to no end with the results. He didn't think it would shoot so accurately. I was very surprised at how small of a report there was, not much more than a .22lr really. But with a 24" barrel and only pushing it to about 750fps that's is probly why.

Anyway just thought I'd pass along this range report. It seems that Trailboss was the best choice for this rifle.

[405]

I shoot 38-40 in three different guns all original- Colt SAA 1st Gen, Winchester 92 and Winchester 73. Of the three, the 92 is BY FAR the strongest no matter of whether it was produced before or after the BP-Smokeless transition. The 1895 date of manufacture means your gun could be either or even a factory original mix of parts- believe it or not. Very nice cartridge and gun.

The original style cast of 180 gr and .401" is the way to go. I'm very cautious when loading smokeless in the 73 and the Colt. There's a little more margin in the 92. I've tried 2400, 5744 and Trailboss. Make no mistake.... Trailboss is a very fast powder similar to Bullseye BUT it's low density helps prevent overcharges- especially in limited capacity short cases like the 38-40. I do use Trailboss in the 92 38-40 if for no other reason than it is cleaner burning than the 2400 and 5744 plus the safety factor of its low density.

Most 38-40 cases and similar have very thin neck walls so crimping requires very careful die adjustment. All you need to prevent bullet set back is a very light roll crimp so the edge of the case mouth just folds in behind the front band edge.... almost touching that edge is perfect. You don't need or want a death grip crimp!

And good to hear the gun and loads shoot well!

[KirkD]

After some extensive research I decided to go with Trailboss powder. It is very bulky and 5 grains almost fills a
.38-40 case.
Trailboss is an extremely fast powder that generates a sharp pressure spike. It has a burn rate similar to Bullseye and generates a much higher peak pressure than black powder for the same velocity and bullet weight. For this reason, if you are going to use Trailboss, it is very important to stick with loads that have been published by a trusted source. The pressure trace below is for a 45-70, but it does give you an example of a comparison between Trailboss and black powder, albeit for a different caliber. My own policy is to never use Trailboss in an original black powder rifle. For the figure below, multiply the peak pressure by 100 to get the pressure in psi (e.g., 334 = 33,400 psi). Note how much higher the Trailboss pressures are for a slower velocity. Having said the above, you are probably fine for the 38-40 cartridge provided you stick with trusted published loads and never exceed those published loads.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v497/3855Win/45_70_pressure3.jpg

[405]

Excellent post there KirkD!
All who may be tempted to experiment, extrapolate or make assumptions about loads using Trailboss, especially in BP era guns and/or larger capacity cases, should take note.

[moptop]

KirkD, thank you for that info. You definitely answers some questions I had about Trailboss loading data. The IMR site shows data using a 180grn LRNFP boolet of:

4.5grns 694fps 7,300 PSI starting load to 5.5grns 800fps 9,900 PSI maxium

I wondered why it only showed a 1 grain difference between start and max loads but now, with seeing the charts you posted, it makes perfect sense why the spread is so small. Unfortunatly I don't have a chronograph so have to trust the load data as far as muzzle velocity goes. So far I haven't seen any signs of an over pressure situation, no flattened primers or pooched out cases, and no problems in ejecting fired cases. In feeling I've hit that "sweet spot" that this ole gal seems to like ( by sheer luck of course ) I don't plan on changing anything I'm doing for now. Maybe SR-4759 should be the next powder I try. I will say one thing, I know I don't have to worry about any light strike problems. This thing smacks the heck out the primer. The firing pin is plenty long enough on this rifle!!!


I do have a question for those who have used Trailboss before, is this stuff unusally sooty? Like black sooty? After shooting 20 rounds we ran a patch throught it and came out as black as sin. Is that the norm here or am I missing something? It smelled bad too, like it's ammonia based. Being a smokeless powder I'm assuming it's non-corrosive or do I have to treat it like the holy black?

[405]

No. What you are seeing is normal. Any powder burning in the low pressure ranges will seem a little dirty. Take mental notes about the amount of carbon that TB produces in those pressure ranges then compare to the carbon fouling of 4759 (or other powders) in those same pressure ranges. And all modern smokeless powder is non-corrosive. BP, and many of the BP substitutes are completely different and are corrosive (leave corrosive residue).

[cajun shooter]

Some of your black soot could be from your barrel that was embedded into the metal.
I myself would give it a very good cleaning with Black powder type cleaners first then try some more modern cleaners like M-Pro7.
I don't think that Trail boss is the best choice for that rifle. I know that a lot of people use it but they are using modern guns.
I tried it when it first came out and with a one grain increase in 45 Colt I had high pressure signs. The load was listed as being safe but that moved me away from it's use.
It has also shown problems when loaded in low pressure rounds.
A slower powder would be much better and the truth be known most of your old time shooters will not shoot nothing but BP in any gun made before 1900. This is because of the changes in the steel they were produced from.
Your gun your choice. The 92 is a very strong action but they can still have problems if used wrong.
Your 38-40 is nothing more than a 44-40 or 44WCF necked down to hold the 40 caliber bullet.
The bullet size was designed to be .401 and the slugging of your barrel after that good cleaning is not a bad idea.

[JayinAZ]

I've been trying to get my 192 gr Accurate RNFP shooting in my 1892 but they are keyholing. How fast do you guys think I need to push them to get stability? So far 8.0 gr of Unique is getting me 1160 fps and it's not enough.

[405]

Several things might cause yawing of the bullet (keyholing on the target). I don't think any of my loads (180 gr .401 RNFP) exceed 1000 fps in either an original Win 73 or 92 and closer to 700 fps out of a Colt SAA. I've had no sign of yawing. The length of the "original style" 180 gr RNFP I shoot is .6" just for comparison to the 192 gr Accurate. While muzzle vel has a bearing on rate of rotation and possibly stability, I'd look elsewhere first to find the culprit.

[JayinAZ]

OK, where to start? This bullet is .66" long, the bore is clean. The rifle shot pretty well with Ultramax 180 gr RNFP cowboy loads. And when I said keyhole, I didn't mean slight yawing, I meant hitting the paper at 25 yards completely sideways.

I need to hone out my ".401" die, because it's a lot closer to .400 (as is the bore), but is that enough to cause this?

[405]

Well,
If the bullet is too long or of the wrong design for the twist rate then it is what it is.
Sizing to at least .401 would be an option to try. Using a softer alloy for the lower velocity loads would be another variable to try. As you stated, you could try speeding it up- with the right powder and load that is within safe pressures of course. But, an easy, one word, for sure answer (guess) to fix a problem like this- hah!

Also, if the bullet is not yawing to produce the keyholes what is it doing?

[JayinAZ]

Perhaps tumbling would be a good way to describe it. I mean some of the holes in the paper are full on side profiles of the bullet, lube grooves and all.

The rifling is pretty shallow so perhaps it's just not engaging enough to put a spin on it. I don't see any leading though. Alloy is ww + some lead free solder. I will get to honing out that die, and see what happens.

[moptop]

Here's the promised picture of the "old gal" I've been nursing back to life. Not bad shape for 110 year old rifle. It looks like it was somebody's best friend in it's early years.


Thanks again for eveyones sage advise. It helped immensely!

[missionary5155]

Greetings
Check your throat diameter. My 1892 38-40 made in 1897 has a .404 throat. A 200 grainer made of 40-1 at .401 will bump up to throat size with 33 graines of 3F kicking it. I found no smokeless powder would do that. To get smokelesss to shoot as well I had to lap a mold to .405. My barrel´s throat no dought has suffered primer erosion back in those early years so be aware the old Winchesters can be fat throated. My 3 1892 44-40´s are all over .432 in throat diameter.
Mike in Peru

[rbertalotto]

I took the "old gal" 1873 Winchester in 38-40 to the range this afternoon and posted target pictures on the web site. www.rvbprecision.com

Load info is also posted.

Fantastic accuracy! I could not possibly be happier on how this rifle came out! It handles great. The action is extremely smooth and the trigger breaks like glass! I'll need to add a higher front sight, but the windage was spot on without adjusting anything. This can be an issue with barrel liners. I lucked out big time!

Now all I need to do is learn how to load 38-40 ammo so the bullets don't get pushed into the case in the magazine! Need to do "crimp" research.

Thanks!

[405]

'lotto,
Good outcome for a "lost cause" 73! Hope not to hijack the thread but it would apply equally to the Win 92s. I really don't put much of a crimp on unless loading from the magazine. Many times I just load single shot even in the levers. That 38-40/44-40 brass usually is very thin walled so crimp gently. The BEST way is to dedicate a separate die for crimping. After seating the bullet use the crimp die- either a Lee FCD or another seater die with the plug removed. Adjust the bullet seating depth so the mouth of the case is JUST BEHIND the front band (front edge of the crimp groove). The last loading stage is the crimping. All you want to do is barely fold the leading edge of the case mouth down behind that band. Excessive crimping can loosen neck tension, crinkle the case neck and decrease case life. If you use non-standard bullets then no telling how to best crimp them. The correct bullets for these cartridges have the crimp groove in the right place.

[Dan Cash]

.......Now all I need to do is learn how to load 38-40 ammo so the bullets don't get pushed into the case in the magazine! Need to do "crimp" research.

Thanks!
If you use the intended powder, i.e. black, you won't need to crimp as the projectile will rest on the card wad which is resting on the propellant. Only movement will be out the muzzle.