lemi shine attempt

[bryonbush]

i tried using lemishine to pre clean some pretty dirty rifle brass i had. i used hot water and lemishine and dumped the brass in and let it set while i was at work. today, i go out to see how well it has done and see that a lot of the brass was pink! anyone else see this? it looks pretty clean, put going to put it in the tumble for about an hour to finish cleaning.

[felix]

Do not shoot that brass. Much of the zinc was leached out of the brass, making the copper percentage too high, thus too brittle. Very light loads, maybe. The reason: you let the brass sit in the leaching solution, a no-no. Always keep the brass moving in such a solution, and take it out once the solution has done its job to the outsides of the brass. You want to leach the gunk, not the metals. Using the abrasive rods in such a solution would allow the brass to become cleaner, quicker without undo leaching of anything. ... felix

[M1A4ME]

Yeah, the badly tarnished (almost black looking) brass sometimes gets a pink tint to it. The brass polisher will take some of it off. I spin it with a drill using a Lee trimmer part that spines the brass. I touch a piece of steel wool (0000 steel wool) to the brass and the pink is quickly gone and all you can see is shiny brass.

Or I just shoot pink brass. Depends on how I feel that day.

[bryonbush]

So I'm hearing don't shoot it and shoot it. Which is it. I can't imagine that it would weaken the brass that much but I would sure hate to find out.

[shooter93]

You answered your own question....if it is weakened as Felix suggests...(personally I'd listen to Felix)....and considering you're holding a high pressure explosive next to your head....would you like to find out if one may or may not rupture? Brass is cheap compared to hospital stays.

[fryboy]

ummm five ten minutes and shaken/swirled a few times is all it needs , it of course wont quite do the job that the stainless media does but it is clean , i've found it better to add a squirt of dawn , and rinse at least twice , being clean it does take a tumbler less time to leave it shiny , and if you run a nylon brush once down the neck it doesnt hurt it either ( i often do that just before the first rinse )
as to shoot or not ... that's not so easy , the lemishine will turn the corrosion on brass pink but compared to vinegar ( acetic acid vs. citric acid ) citric acid isnt as bad but the long soak isnt good , just how bad i cant answer

[DODGEM250]

Shoot it. I've had the same thing happen with vinegar pre soaks and some of the brass turns pink, clean it again and shoot on.

[Moonman]

People who reload NEED TO LEARN TO FOLLOW DIRECTIONS. Many chemicals can harm your brass and also lead to a harmed firearm, individual, or both.

[cajun shooter]

While it's a great product to use in cleaning black powder brass and smokeless brass that is real dirty it's made to shine Kitchen Ware that is very dirty and stained in a Dish washer. A teaspoon of Lemi-Shine in a 15 pound Thumblers Model B will remove the nickel from cases.
If you read it does say"CONCENTRATE"). This is a product that does not go with if a little is good then more is great theory.
Our new sponser with the steel media that is listed at the top of the main page has a section on this product that you need to read. It states to only use cold water with it and in small amounts.

[jmorris]

If you read it does say"CONCENTRATE"). This is a product that does not go with if a little is good then more is great theory.


Yeah, I use a teaspoon per gallon of water.

[cdet69]

Yes people need to learn how toe read directions. But the reason for this forum is to ask questions one might not have an answer for. It is usualy never a good idea to let brass sit in any chemical to get it clean. Metals have a tendency of breaking down doing this not only just brass.

[bryonbush]

well, im not using it with SS media. Just wanted to see how it will help clean up the stuff before tumbling. left for work before draining/ rinsing it off, got home late and just plain forgot about it.

[cheese1566]

Worked great on my used 55gal aquarium!

1/4 cup in the dishwasher...
4028040281

[MT Gianni]

Take a piece of once fired or new brass and put it vertically in a vice at the far end. Put the pink one on the other end of the vice. Tighten and it will show you how soft it is.

[40Super]

I just add a couple pinches of it to my Dawn and water solution with the SS pins.They get rinsed good after being taken out,if I don't rinse enough the brass will turn darker in the next couple days,rinse enough and the brass stays bright until loaded and shot again.I never let brass sit in any solution.

[1hole]

"I'm hearing don't shoot it and shoot it. Which is it. "

Tumble it and shoot it. The only chemical I know of that's harmful to brass is ammonia and that's a base, not an acid.

I've been cleaning dark tarnish off brass with the old military arsenal formula since the early 60s, the active ingrediant is vinegar (acetitic acid) rather than Lemishine (citric acid) but the effect is the same. The pink color comes from a chemical reduction of the tarnish/oxide, not leeching of zinc because brass isn't all that porous. An hour or so is usually enough to reduce the tarnish, demonstrated by turning it pink, but I've left cases in pure white vinegar for days and used it after a moderate tumbling that left it looking and working exactly the same as non-tarnished cases.

However, IF you have some green corrosion on the cases the acid bath will also remove that but corrosion is harmful to the metal in ways tarnish is not; don't use corroded cases, THEY can indeed be hazardous.

[MtGun44]

Difficult to assess whether the brass is damaged. I'd guess that only the outer .0001 or
less is leached. I'd take a few and polish with something like Simichrome for a few seconds,
which is ULTRA fine and will not remove much of the surface. If the pink is gone, you will
know that the leached is super thin and therefore, unimportant.

Bill

[DaveInFloweryBranchGA]

Or just tumble it in some 50/50 corncob/walnut shell media mixed with a cup of Nu Finish car polish. That's what I did after using the Lemi Shine. Pink came right off in just a few minutes of tumbling. If it was very deep, I doubt the tumbler would have gotten it off.

[MtGun44]

If the brass was extremely tarnished, the zinc had been leached in the tarnish layer and
the copper had turned to copper oxide - very dark. The citric acid reduced the oxide
(reversed the oxidation reaction) so the copper was now back to metallic copper - and looked
pink due to the missing zinc. Polish off the ultra thin copper layer in the tumbler and go
on.

If there are deep areas of corrosion that don't polish off - dump that piece.

Bill

[azjohn]

It's a long thread but the discussion of the use of citric acd can be found here in case you were not aware of it. Up to 22 pages now!! Quite a read. Hope that helps you make it to the perfect world some other posters live in.
http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?t=83572

[DODGEM250]

I read these replies on this forum and others and I'm amazed that how is it that so many guys have debated the reason why brass turns pink, but, have never made the connection that the "pink" on brass is a result of Hydrochloric acid which is found naturally in Lemons in high particulates ? Don't want pink brass ? Don't use agents which contain the chemicals that produce pink on brass. I use GelGloss, no HCI. No pink brass.

Vinegar... HCI

Lemi Shine (lemons)... HCI

GelGloss... no HCI

Why not just buy some Lemi Shine concentrate from the food store.

http://www.gettingmoreawesome.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/01/lemon-juice-bottle.jpeg

[MajorJim]

Outfit yourself with a Hello Kitty Casting ensemble (Pink furnace, pink molds, pink leather apron) and you should be good to go.

[geargnasher]

If the brass was extremely tarnished, the zinc had been leached in the tarnish layer and
the copper had turned to copper oxide - very dark. The citric acid reduced the oxide
(reversed the oxidation reaction) so the copper was now back to metallic copper - and looked
pink due to the missing zinc. Polish off the ultra thin copper layer in the tumbler and go
on.

If there are deep areas of corrosion that don't polish off - dump that piece.

Bill

Best response yet, IMO.

One thing's for sure, AVOID anything containing ammonia, it weakens cartridge brass.

I've worked out a method of sorting shootable tarnished brass from the stuff that needs to be destroyed. Just my way, but I find it very effective and safe for determining good from bad and ending up with nice looking brass in the end if any of it can be kept:

Use citric acid on really tarnished stuff. Get the powdered stuff, about a teaspoon per quart, and two drops per quart of Dawn dishwashing detergent. Use distilled water, throw it all in a pot on the stove and bring it to a boil, stir it around good with a wooden spoon and let it sit until it cools enough to handle, then rinse in HOT water.

Next, tumble it all with untreated cob media for about 30-45 minutes. The pink will remain in depleted areas, but much of it will polish off. Here's the important part: Examine each pink spot carefully witha bright light and at least 4X magnification. Note any visible pitting in the pink areas. If you see black pits in the surface, recycle it, and I don't mean on your reloading press. Those pits are where the zinc used to be, and without zinc, the brass is now copper which is too weak to trust in any firearm with smokeless powder. Once you separate the trash from the brass with just superficial pink patches, you can tumble with abrasive media or metallic media to polish it all up nice. Any pink spots that remain after an hour in a vibratory tumbler with treated cob media need to be trashed no matter what they looked like under magnification.

Gear

[MtGun44]

What makes you think that Lemishine has HCL? I think this is bogus.

The label says "made with real fruit acids and fragrance" - this means it has citric acid. HCL is NOT
a fruit acid.

Bill

[Gillie Dog]

What makes you think that Lemishine has HCL? I think this is bogus.

The label says "made with real fruit acids and fragrance" - this means it has citric acid. HCL is NOT
a fruit acid.

Bill

Agreed:

vinegar = acetic acid

Lemons are about 4 to 5% citric acid, if I recall correctly.

LemiShine mostly citric acid.

GD

[Sonnypie]

I don't see anywhere that you say how much LemiShine you put into your solution.
I know from one web site where I got my stuff that they say 1/4 of a tsp.
That is ONE-Quarter of a TEASPOON. A very tiny amount.
Why it is used is to soften the water, to reduce spotting.
It isn't a soap or detergent. That is why Dawn dish washing liquid is used with it.
(But I use Palmolive. I trust Madge. :mrgreen: Naw, that's what the wife bought.)
So if you are going to go grab things, at least check on how it is used.

Read Question #2 in Tips HERE (http://www.stainlesstumblingmedia.com/tips)

And I'm really glad to see STM is a sponsor here now.

[geargnasher]

Citric acid reduces spotting because it reacts with dissolved calcium and magnesium compounds in "hard" water to make inert salts.

It's kind of counter-productive to mix weak acids with basic phosphates, but the dispersant effect of the soap helps the water penetrate oily residue on the brass, and if you don't use too much it doesn't change the pH of the solution significantly.

Gear

[waksupi]

Has any one tried the dish washing soap that already has lemon or other citrus added? I think I will look for some when I go to town.

[Gillie Dog]

Sonny,

Look here for caculated mixture rates for testing.

GD

http://www.handloadersbench.com/forum99/19454-1.html

[Moonman]

Gillie Dog,

Using that chart, 1 gallon of water with 1/4 teaspoon of Lemi-Shine would be .0275% Lemi-Shine solution.

Lemi-Shine whole 1 teaspoon in 1 gallon of water = 0.110% Lemi-Shine solution.

0.110% Divided by 4 = 0.0275%

[Gillie Dog]

Looks right. Weigh your product and see if the math works out for you also.

That little tiny bit in a tumbler for 2 hours with SS media is probably enough. I chose to do ultrasonic cleaning with about 1% for 8 to 12 minutes and it works for me. At this point I am not going the SS media route as just citric works fine for me.

Please note the percentage is of citric not LemiShine as I believe LemiShine is less than 100% citric.

Good luck

GD

[runfiverun]

lemishine is 94% citric acid.
the mix i use is 4-5% strong as i add some lemon juice to it along with a dash of liquid dish soap.

[David O]

I know that this thread started more than 2 1/2 years ago, but since then has anyone finally determined whether Lemishine can damage brass if improperly used? To be more specific: I put a lot of 40 S&W into the mixture but it didn't do much. So I added a lot more Lemishine and left it too long while I tended to other things....I'm old and forgot. Anyhow, the brass turned real pink so I rinsed it, let it dry and tumbled in corn cob and Nu Finish. The brass finally came out shiny, though I can see a little bit of pink in the headstamps. Since 40 S&W is a fairly high pressure cartridge I don't want to take a chance, but I also don't like the idea of throwing away 500 cases unnecessarily. What do ya'll think?
Thanks,
David

[MtGun44]

Not a problem if the pink polishes off easily, like yours did, you just removed .00001 (or something like that)
of brass from the surface, so what. Not really much different than tumbling with a slightly abrasive
polish, which is done all the time. Is the brass weaker? Sure - there is less metal, but how much
weaker ---- probably will only be good for 1 or 2 psi less than before. . . . . . . :bigsmyl2:

So if it had a working pressure of 35,000 psi and a 2x safety factor - meaning it may rupture at 70,000 psi,
now it may rupture at 69,998 psi. I'm betting that is OK. ;-)

Bill

[David O]

Thank you Bill.