.375 H&H or .458 WM: which is better cast caliber?

[Red Pepper]

I'm looking at picking up a Winchester 70 Safari rifle, debating between .458 Win Mag and .375 H&H mag. Either one would be used more often than not in down-loaded/cast bullet mode. I have lots of .458 bullets right now, but I can swap them for .375 bullets easily. Any thoughts on which one is typically more accurate or easier to load with cast projectiles?

[Mk42gunner]

No idea as to which would be the better cast rifle, but the .375 would typically use less lead per shot.

Recoil in either should not be a problem with cast boolit loads.

Good luck and keep us informed,

Robert

[NickSS]

I owned a Ruger No 1 in both calibers years ago and had no trouble making good accurate loads for the 375 but I did have trouble with the 458. For some reason (I was not very sdientific in those days) I could not get the 450 to shoot at all with lead bulllets until I bought a lee 500 gr mold and loaded the rounds up to at lease 1800 fps. Then accuracy was good but so was the pain in my shoulder after a couple boxes of ammo. Any lighter loads would end up with the slug tumbling and giving like a six foot patern at 100 yards. Now I would guess that the bore was oversized and that my .458 sized bullets were too small in diameter.

[Red Pepper]

That's interesting. My .45-90 has the opposite problem: load the bullets too fast, and I get 18" patterns at 30 yards. Dropping them down to BP levels seems to move the groups into a reasonable area. As a side note, my Lyman reloading manual (48th) notes that a Ruger #1 they used in testing had a .459 barrel - a tad larger than standard.

I know the shoulder impact of 500 grain bullets at 1800 fps. My first .45-90 loads hit 1880 fps with 500 grain bullets. Would knock the glasses off my face when I fired it!

[Larry Gibson]

Out of the .375 H&H a 250 gr cast at 1800 - 2200 fps will be a lot more comfortable to shoot than even a 400 gr bullet from a 458 at 1500+ fps. I have a M70 .375 and a Siamese Mauser 45-70. The Mauser is thoated long and I push 500 gr GC'd cast at 2050 fps and 385 GC'd at 2300+ fps which is 458 Magnum velocities. I shoot the M70 .375 a lot more. However, if one drops the 458 down to 1300 - 1400 fps with 350 - 400 gr bullets it can be both accurate and comfortable to shoot.

In the long run the M70 Safari is going to be more desirable and usable in .375 than .458. Depends on what you want and are going to use it for.

Larry Gibson

[Red Pepper]

I thought I might use reduced loads for some pig hunting in SC, and hotter loads for bear/elk hunting. The rest of the time I would use cast for just fun shooting at paper at various ranges.

[Old Coot]

I have a restocked safari grade Mod 70 in .458 Win. I shot the origional stock to pieces. To say that it was beaded poorly would be an understatement. Just one big glob of bedding compound behind the recoil lug. It would shoot 500gr. Hornadys into 3/4 inch for three shots at 100yds though.
There are some things you should know about the 458's 1. They are throated very deep for the 500 gr solids, and the give some extra freebore to deal with the expected pressure rise due to the higher temperatures in Africa. 2. The are chambered with Plenty of room around the case neck. 3. Most will have a groove diameter of .459 to .461, so slug your barrel.
I got acceptable accuracy out of 45gr of the old 2400 behind a 300gr. half jacket or cast bullet(sized .460 in mine) with the rest of the case filled with COW to the bullet base. I got excellent accuracy with Lymans GC 550 bullet sized to .460 and 68gr. of IMR3031. Not a load for the recoil sensitive. I loaded two REMCO 45 Colt shot caps on top of 12gr.Unique and they would kill birds at 25yds, but you had to do this in unsized cases. I have also heard of people using 3" .410 wads and an over shot card wad. I tried round balls, but couldn't get any large enough to get decent accuracy.
The .458 win is a remarkably versatile cartridge for what it is.
Brodie

[rockrat]

I have heard, also, that the 458 is a bit tougher to get an accurate cast load, due to the long throat.
My Ruger #1 375H&H will go about an inch@100 with a 310gr boolit@2000fps

[stubshaft]

My Whitworth Express in 375 always gave me fits trying to find an accurate cast load. My Ruger #1 Tropical .458 is a breeze as long as I use something 400 grains or over in it.

[nanuk]

I recently read a thread where the posters were talking routine MOA or better with their .458WinMags

can't find it though.

[Red Pepper]

I've got a bid in on the .458. We'll see how it goes. I'm inclined towards the .458, knowing something about what you can do with the .45-70 and similar. Plus, I have a bunch of hard-cast .458 bullets in my inventory (along with Horndady FTX). I just hope the long throat, etc. doesn't cause me too much grief. Another bonus is the ability to cut down the brass to create a legal deer cartridge for Indiana.

[405]

I'm looking at picking up a Winchester 70 Safari rifle, debating between .458 Win Mag and .375 H&H mag. Either one would be used more often than not in down-loaded/cast bullet mode. I have lots of .458 bullets right now, but I can swap them for .375 bullets easily. Any thoughts on which one is typically more accurate or easier to load with cast projectiles?

Impossible to predict sans the individual rifle in hand. Overall, considering cast and jacketed loads for all purposes then the 375 would be more versatile. If you can predict good cast results for a particular Win 70 in 458 then the 458 would likely be the better choice. I don't know what type of Win 70 you are looking at- if new, I don't know what Winchester is offering in their Carolina 70s. One Win 70 factory combination (at least in the Conn. Winchesters) you didn't mention is the 416 Rem. I've found the 416 Rem to be very user friendly.
Just a thought.

[paborn]

The problem wth the 458 Win Mag and cast is the 1.1 inch throat that is TAPERED.

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?t=122622

Paborn

[405]

I know it can be dangerous to think out loud but another possibility if you're not absolutely set on a "factory" Win 70 long mag big boomer. Might scrounge around for a standard length Rem 700 or Win 70 action for decent $ then get a good barrel and have a good gunsmith ream a cast bullet friendly chamber in it to your liking in whatever your taste is in cartridge. Also, those long mag type cartridges have excess powder capacity anyway for mild smokeless cast loads. One thing to keep in mind in the so-called standard length factory actions, the Rem 700 standard length is a little more flexible than the Win 70 CRF standard length. The Win 70 CRF standard length can be lengthened some by removing the magazine box spacer and modifying the bolt stop and ejector. All simple modifications but good to be aware of.

[Red Pepper]

405: I haven't considered the 416 because I'm not that familiar with the round and don't have any load data for it (not that it would be that hard to search the internet for it...). How is the 416 as a cast-bullet delivery vehicle? :)

paborn: thanks for the link - some really good info there! Interestingly, I've found that some bullets shoot better when loaded deeper into the case and with a little jump to the rifling. My son was having problems with 110 gr varmint bullets in his 30-06 (identical Sierra bullets to the 90 grainers that shoot superbly in my .270 WSM). He told me he was loading them as far out as he could to get close to the rifling. I suggested he might try seating them normally in the case. Groups dropped from 4" to sub-moa. I'm hoping for similar success here... :)

[405]

pepper,
There's plenty of load data for Jbullet 416 Rem. Not for cast bullets. Just use 375 HH cast data and work up since the 416 Rem has slightly higher expansion ratio. Powders like 5744 work well in the 416 for cast loads. The 350 gr RCBS FN GC is an excellent 416 bullet. For cast loading, the 416 Rem has a slight advantage over the 375 HH because it has a slightly longer neck. The other 416 worthy of consideration because of its simplicity is the 416 Taylor- fall off the log simple to size down a 458 WM to 416 Taylor or size up a 338 WM to 416 Taylor or 2-3 outfits now making 416 Taylor headstamped brass.

[Red Pepper]

Thanks, 405. I should have said I don't have cast bullet data for the 416, since I do have jacketed data. Should my bid on the .458 fail, I'll give serious consideration to the 416. It would be an interesting cartridge to work with.

[beagle]

I'd go with the .375 H & H. I've owned one of each and the .458 WM was a pain with cast. One the other hand, the .375 H & H is very cast friendly and very accurate.

One summer it was our favorite plinker at softball to football sized rocks on the 300 meter berm using a partner as a spotter. Hit with a heavy bullet, they made very satisfying puffs of dust./beagle

[Red Pepper]

Thus far it seems that the .375 is (almost) universally praised as being easy to load accurately, while the .458 has mixed reviews - some seem to do really well with it, and others find it to be quite a challenge. Now I guess I need to buy both (and a .416 to boot)! :)

[stubshaft]

Thus far it seems that the .375 is (almost) universally praised as being easy to load accurately, while the .458 has mixed reviews - some seem to do really well with it, and others find it to be quite a challenge. Now I guess I need to buy both (and a .416 to boot)! :)

NOW your on your way to being a true Cast Boolit member.:kidding:

[Idaho Sharpshooter]

I had zero problems with getting an moa load for the 350gr 416 RCBS boolet over 1800fps in my CZ 416 Rigby. Ditto for three or four 375's. I gave up on the 458WM, and had it punched to 450 Dakota.

458Win Mags just seem to be a pita with that idiot throating thing.

Rich

[x101airborne]

If you used cast in a 458, would you be essentially using a 45-70? I would think they would be close, anyway. And let's face it, the 45-70 is a GREAT cast boolit cartrige.

Now the 375 H&H,,,, there's a gem! That long, sleek case like legs under a slit dress and the heavy cast flat point finishing it off like 6 inch stilletto heels and just as deadly.

And yes, all my guns have women's names.

[smoked turkey]

Its pretty hard to do a follow up after x101airborne remarks regarding his "ladies". Have to admit it got me thinking...I vote for the 375 H&H. It is very versatile caliber. Plainly you can use it to take anything in the world with the right combination of powder and boolits or bullets. I think where it is a deal breaker with the 458 would be that it is a llttle better at long ranges when it comes to hunting. The 458 has more of an arc to it while the 375 is a flatter shooting rifle. I used my 375 H&H Weatherby to take a nice doe this year using 270 gr cast and it did exactly what you would want it to do.

[Red Pepper]

I think I'm off to a good start. Opted to buy a Winchester 1885 Safari in .375 H&H. I love the 1885's, the price was unbeatable, that 28" tube should give some remarkable ballistic performance, and falling-block single shots are truly wonderful when it comes to load development! :)

[Red Pepper]

Thanks for all the excellent information. I was planning on a .458, regarding it as basically an ultra-strong .45-70, but other than knowing it had a longer throat I didn't realize the other differences in the chamber dimensions. I also have to say that while I knew the .375 H&H is a sexy looking cartridge, I never quite realized the relationship to a woman's leg... :)

[oldred]

Now I guess I need to buy both (and a .416 to boot)! :)



That's the way to do it!! :smile:

[beagle]

The problems I have encountered with my Number 1 and also my son's M70 .458 is that they tend to be very generously throated no doubt to reduce pressure with jacketed bullets. This necessitates seating bullets longer to allow them to touch the rifling and obtain better accuracy. This then will allow grease grooves to be exposed and I don't care for that.

I have loaded .462" diameter cast in the .458 and it eliminates this problem but your seating dies may have to be modified to allow a bullet this big to be seated correctly.

They're a fun gun when you figure out what it wants....kinda like a good heavy .45/70./beagle

[Red Pepper]

I put my first rounds through the Winchester 1885 Safari Sunday afternoon. What a super gun and a super cartridge! I think it was love at first shot! :) I shot 20, 248 gr cast bullets loaded to 1700 fps; those I had seated close to the rifling shot very well, with shots touching each other at my 25 yard initial sight-in range (there was far too much of a cross-wind to bother shooting any further away). The rounds where I seated the bullets down to the crimping groove opened up noticably - around 5" groups at 25 yards. Seating cast bullets against the rifling is definitely the way to go with this rifle. These rounds were very gentle to shoot. Even the full-house 270 grain jacketed rounds were fairly pleasant to shoot as well. It probably helps to have almost 10 lbs of rifle with two recoil pads (I have a Limbsaver slip-on pad over the stock, which already has a pad, to get the length of pull where I want it). :) Even so, I could tell the recoil was a more drawn-out push than a fast shove. Now where is that herd of rampaging Cape Buffalo...

[smoked turkey]

Sounds like you made a good choice. It is a shooter from the sounds of things. I sure enjoy my 375 H&H. Ofcourse I also like my others. I guess I just like to shoot. From what I know about this crowd, everyone Likes to shoot! Caliber isn't always the issue. I am working up a 35 Whelen load for next deer season. Almost can't wait.

[moondog911]

Greetings,

I have the 375 and 416 chambered in Ruger Compact Magnum. Both handle cast bullets nicely, and both are cheaper than the long action Winny or Remmy. The 375 is an Alaskan bolt action with a 20 inch barrel. The 416 is a 24 inch barreled number one with a heavy tropical barrel. Both are stainless which is my preferred metal for a gun that will see hard use. I like them both for different reasons.

The 416 definately has the greatest fun factor. It shoots the 350 grain cast bullets at about 2,000 fps easily with enough authority to knock down about anything in North America. Further, it can handle a 400 grain jacketed bullet up to 2,400 fps, and that is good medicine for the nasty varmints anywhere.

With all of that, the ability to have a second shot in the bolt action of the 375 is a comfort. Just my humble opinion!!!

moondog911

[mstarling]

My 375 H&H M70 SS Classic does OK (1.5") with the Lyman bullet. Have not finished the testing with the .376 Steyr based on a 1909 Argie.

My .376/.416 Steyr Improved (.416 Aagard) shoots clover leaves with a 400 gr NEI design from a commercial FN Mauser based rifle. The .416 Rigby does also does abt an 1 1/2" from a CZ550 Safari Mag.

I have a .458 AR (also known as an .458 AccRel) built on a commercial Mauser action. It Shoots an inch with a 425 GCFP design from Ballisti-Cast. THe .458 AR is a .375 RUM case necked up to .458 and shortened a bit. Fits in a standard length action. Has about 4% more case capacity that the Lott.

The .470 Nitro Express Searcy double rifle gets 2" (2 right, 2 left) groups at 100 yards with a 500 gr GCFN design from Ballisti-Cast. This is GREAT accuracy for a double rifle by the way ;-)

I use AA5744 for propellent and Carnauba Red lube.

The bigger bores are more fun to shoot. The .416s are probably a bit more practical to actually hunt with in the US than the .458 or .470. Cast bullets do make great practice ammo in chamberings that can cost $10-15 a round for commercial ammo.