Even more assembly required

[oldred]

Good to see a fellow builder here, I sure would like to see more people building their own guns. I hope starting another thread on such a similar subject is not out of line but I did not want to clutter up the thread on the Sharpes casting set, it seems as if a really nice homebuilt rifle is about to appear and I really would be interested in following that build!



There was a castings kit for the 1885 High Wall that was similar to the one in the other thread but they are not being sold anymore so when I decided to build one I was too late and had to start with raw materials, in this case a 1 1/2"X3"X12" 4140 HT block. My "kit" was a bit less developed than that one and took a lot of work but it sure was a lot of fun too! I posted a few pics of this rifle a couple of weeks ago but I thought I might share a few more details if anyone is interested.

http://i258.photobucket.com/albums/hh269/dwmiracle/PDR_0001.jpg

http://i258.photobucket.com/albums/hh269/dwmiracle/IMG_3717.jpg

http://i258.photobucket.com/albums/hh269/dwmiracle/IMG_2716.jpg

http://i258.photobucket.com/albums/hh269/dwmiracle/IMG_3723.jpg

http://i258.photobucket.com/albums/hh269/dwmiracle/1314485488.jpg

http://i258.photobucket.com/albums/hh269/dwmiracle/1314489384.jpg


Fellows, sorry about the large pics but I spent a half hour trying to figure out how to post a thumbnail, what am I doing wrong?

[zuke]

That look's sweet!

[stubshaft]

Beautiful.

I used to get my kicks by putting together Siler lock kits and Mule Ear hammer kits.

[oldred]

I made several deviations from the original design such as eliminating the trigger group side screws by locking the assembly in from the back and also placing the sear on a carrier that eliminates the pin ends from appearing on the receiver just below the hammer. This not only gives a cleaner appearance but also allowed for easy trigger adjustment. Another thing I did was opt for the not so common "thick side" type receiver which makes for a much stronger action, probably not needed but it only adds a few ounces of weight for a big increase in strength. I was not trying for an exact replica so I took these few liberties with the original design both for my own personal taste and peace of mind with the slightly heavier action.


My new project that I am just starting is going to be a 70% scale High Wallish rifle chambered in 17 HMR or maybe 22 Hornet. I intend to make it a lot lighter than the 45/90 version and of course a much shorter barrel. I have some finely figured Walnut that's dry enough to work now and I really enjoy that part of it, that walnut came from a tree that was about to be cut up for fire wood but the guy instead gave it to me for the asking! I have gotten 4 really nice feather figure stock blanks out of that load of fire wood!

[Red River Rick]

Oldred:

Very nicely done Sir! I commend the workmanship...................awesome!

More pictures would be greatly appreciatted, you have my attention.

RRR

[nanuk]

are you kidding me?

that is awesome

what is that circular thing in the center of the receiver in pic#2?

[elk hunter]

I'm impressed, and that's hard to do. Congratulations on a job well done.

[oldred]

what is that circular thing in the center of the receiver in pic#2?

That's just where I stopped a facing cut when I was reducing the thickness of the rough blank, it's actually a .060 nub sticking out. I don't have a mill yet and this project was done using a home made milling attachment for my lathe so it was much easier to just face the blank close to size, the finial truing and sizing cuts were later done using the milling attachment.

[lbaize3]

Wow! Gee, I wish I had the ability and tools to do that. You do excellent work!

[Quigley284]

Such a nice rifle, truely very special. People with talent such as yours is beyond belief. I am jealous for I surely got shorted in that department. Mike

[Lloyd Smale]

ill give that an AMEN!
Such a nice rifle, truely very special. People with talent such as yours is beyond belief. I am jealous for I surely got shorted in that department. Mike

[725]

Wow. What satisfaction you must get from creating such a beautiful work of art. How's it shoot?

[cajun shooter]

Sir, You reinforce my regrets of only taking two years of machinist training before deciding to enlist into the Army.
I once worked with a machinist friend who helped me build a Siamese Mauser into a nice 45-70 bolt gun.
Your work and craftsmanship is outstanding and is something that you and your family should be proud of.
That rifle will be shot by someone 150 years from now and they will enjoy it the same as you do now. Take Care David

[Reg]

Very-VERY nice work. I bet it shoots as good as it looks. When you get into that 70 percent High Wall, be sure to post pictures along the way. Have you considered the Bee for a caliber ?
Making your own from scratch can be a challange but well worth the effort.
Finished up a Farrow from one of those casting kits a while back and have still to decide what caliber to set it up in.

:drinks::drinks:

[oldred]

Thanks everyone for the kind words,


Reg, coincidence you would mention the 218 Bee because just last night I was researching small cartridges and the 218 kind of stood out from the others, yes I will definitely consider the BEE! I have about ruled out the 17 rimfires because, at the risk of starting a disagreement, I just fail to see any real advantage to them plus the fact they aren't reloadable makes them a no-go for me. The Bee offers real performance at sensible pressures and just makes all kinds of sense.


The first few shots were only barely acceptable but then I fire-lapped the bore and also lapped the muzzle crown, which I had not done yet, and the groups tightened up considerably to the point I am very pleased with the way it shoots. These shooting sessions were done while the rifle was still in the white and I have since disassembled and hot blued it with somewhat disappointing results, I think due to a temperature control problem. It looked great indoors but out in the sun it had a kind of purple hue to it that, while not all that bad, was nonetheless noticeable. I stripped it back down and re-polished in preparation for the Pilkington slow rust blue process that I should have done in the first place and this should be completed in the next few days.

BTW, I think I failed to mention it is chambered in 45/90 and I am shooting Lee 500 grain RN with 46 grains of Varget for a fairly light load, I have yet to shoot any BP loads but that is something I am sure will be fun when the time comes. The rifle is built entirely from 4140 HT steel and is the heavier "thickside" version that weighs 14 1/2 lbs, the slightly thicker receiver side walls and 4140 steel add a bit of safety margin for shooting stiffer loads although I doubt I will venture beyond mid-range pressures, certainly nowhere near the Ruger no.1 max loads that were used for proof firing.

[scrapcan]

Reg,

How about one in 219 zipper. I just happen to have the idela loading press to go with the rifle. The Jordan press with full set of dies.

[Reg]

oldred'
I made up a 1892 Win in .218 Bee back about 1967, have enjoyed it ever since. Properly set up in your High Wall it should preform very well. Have thought about chambering that Farrow in the Bee but think it would be more traditional if I kept it in something like the 32-40 or even the 25-25. Another thought is you could chamber it in the .219 Donaldson Wasp. It would be about like the Bee but only on steriods . The Wasp cases are not that hard to make and you cannot beat it's reputation for accuracy. Bee cases are a bit pricy nowdays and the Wasp cases can be made from 30-30 cases. Your action is more than strong enough.
Only thing to watch on the Wasp is that a lot of the older loading info was generated by someone's "good right eye" rather than using a pressure gun and cronograph. Watch out for the older info but there is still plenty of newer out there.

Manley,
Had had just such an idea on the back burner for several years now based on a single shot modifacation to a 1898 Krag action, even have the action sitting but never seem to find the time. Got close to it several months ago but got side tracked making a set of stocks for a Chicopee CF action.
Too many projects ---- never enough time !!!!


:drinks::drinks:

[scrapcan]

Reg,

I tell you this Jordan would look really good sitting next to your project in the works! I will even send 20 formed cases that another member here did up so I could play with the press. I can be an enabler and bring it to Denver in May!

Of course I get to unload them the no fun way, I don't own a rifle so chambered so the bullet puller it is.

[Reg]

Manley,
Enabler, huh ? Careful man, my wife will put you in the same catagory as my brother--- one who "drags" me off to gunshows !!!!!!
Actually I am not sure I even know what a Jorden press is. Would it match the other 7 different press's I already have on the bench ?
Are you going to set up a display again this year ? If I can do anything, give a yell. Missed you last year. You were off in a meeting then I got tied up in a horse swap involving a High Wall action and the shock of the whole thing caused me to wander out the front door early.
The High Wall is wearing a new barrel in .219 Donaldson Wasp and awaiting it's turn for wood.

:bigsmyl2:

Reg

[bstarling]

That is a really nice piece of work. Are you using a manual mill or CAD/CAM setup? I would love to have the machine and the skill to be able to mill out a receiver from scratch, but it's not to be. Presently, I am working on a scratch build of an underhammer 20 gauge pistol and am thinking about a Chicopee of some sort or the other.

Keep up the nice work,

Bill

[oldred]

T. Are you using a manual mill or CAD/CAM setup?
Bill


Actually I don't have a mill yet all I have is a 14x40 lathe and the entire project was done on that lathe using a home built milling attachment and a couple of other tools I rigged up to accomplish various tasks. I keep waiting on a good deal on a Bridgeport (or similar) but so far all I have been finding is machines that are worn out and/or overpriced but sooner or later one of those good deals I always seem to be late for will come along at the right time. I would sure love to get my hands on some CNC machines but all I have is a small shop back in the boonies here in the Tennessee hills so I don't have room for much. A lot of the work, by necessity, is done the old way so a lot of external metal (and most wood) shaping is done freehand using files and hones but it should not be called work at all because I enjoy it immensely.

[bstarling]

That is outstanding work to say the least .Files, in the right hands, are very capable milling tools. Bulk removal of stock, however is not a job for the file. Been there and tried that. I have a 12x36 lathe but have never thought of making a milling attachment for it. I would love to see the set up you have made for your lathe.

That is a wonderful job.

Bill

[oldred]

The attachment is certainly nothing fancy just some modified parts from a small milling table I bought from Enco that are mounted on an angle plate mounted to the cross slide, this allows for travel in all axis even if somewhat limited compared to a full size mill. I also made a lot of use of a vertical/horizontal rotary table that was a real work saver for things like the lever and small internal parts but a real mill, even a small one, sure would be nice. I will be mounting the milling attachment again in a few days and I will try to post a pic or two but right now I have gear box project set up on the lathe for a farmer friend that is going to take some time to finish.


I would think the milling attachment I have would work just fine on a 12" lathe, I have to admit parts set up with the table in a vertical position is a bit of a pain but once everything is locked down it works quite well. Another tool I built for this project that has turned out to be handy for many more things is what I jokingly call my tool post mill. It's really nothing but a frame with a jack-shaft and a 1/2 HP 110V motor that mounts in place of the tool post with the jack-shaft aligned with the lathe center line. I have an end mill holder attached to the shaft so that work mounted between centers and held in a locked position can be milled lengthwise, this is how I milled the flats onto the 1.270" round barrel blank to form the tapered octagon barrel.

[Buckshot]

.............oldred, that's sure enough work to be proud of, and comparable to or better then anything coming out of a dedicated shop. I still marvel at what the machinists of yesteryear accomplished. They didn't even have HSS, let alone carbide and ALL their machines were manual. I'm sure you've visited the various machining forums around the web, but it's obvious you didn't heed the wisdom freely dispensed that lathe mounted milling attachments are not worth carrying to the trash dumpster :-) Good for you! That's how I started out.

http://www.fototime.com/D0D7C3047FBF5E8/standard.jpghttp://www.fototime.com/E5745333F6A7CCE/standard.jpg

I have an 11" Logan and started out with the same type thing. I bought a crossbed dual toolpost setup, and used that for the basis to mount a Palmgren #250 milling attachment.

http://www.fototime.com/26857D3EBA317D2/standard.jpghttp://www.fototime.com/6AF3BE634A683B4/standard.jpghttp://www.fototime.com/A0FA4D1BBA10033/standard.jpg

I reconditioned several old ratty moulds I'd been given. Nothing very heavy duty though. You just have to take lighter cuts.

http://www.fototime.com/82632E7461AAE0C/standard.jpghttp://www.fototime.com/CCDC95FD15F5B4D/standard.jpg

I was lucky enough to be able to buy a new 9x42 Bridgeport clone a couple years ago. Getting it into the shop was a LOT of fun, but we finally did. From your photo's of the work you've done I surely hope you're able to get yourself a milling machine to make things a bit easier for ya. I was so positive I was going to get a knee mill I had a couple grand in tools when I DID get the mill [smilie=l:

Again, that's some work to take GREAT pride in, and thanks for sharing the photos!

...............Buckshot

[oldred]

Now that's nice, I sure wish a new one was in my future but I guess I will have to wait until that really good deal comes along. I have found a couple of Bridgeport clones and I have been told the Taiwanese versions are really good quality. Three or four years ago really good used mills could be picked up for scrap prices because the market was flooded with them but no more, the home machinist hobby has really taken off and a good mill (especially a Bridgeport) disappears fast these days.

[Vly]

Oldred - Wow! Very impressive work. As others have said, you have skills many of us would give our left you-know-what to acquire. Congratulations, and feel free to share more photos and info on your future projects.

[Reg]

I notice the careful usage of a good dial indicator. That and just good shop practice will easly make up for a machine or attachment that might not be the best.
Never underestamate a careful workman.

[357maximum]

It took all of me to resist the temptation to change the title of this thread to "AN HEIRLOOM IS BORN".......GOOD JOB....WOW. :drinks:

[Ronbo256]

The purple in your first blue job came from using 4140HT, it's famous for turning purple, look at some old Ruger M77 receivers and you will see what I mean. And Wow, I am a machinist and I couldn't do what you have done, at least not in any kind of reasonable time frame.

[oldred]

The purple in your first blue job came from using 4140HT, it's famous for turning purple, .



I believe you are right about that because no matter what I did differently, temperature changes, time in bath, etc the strange purple hue was always present in the finish on the test pieces of the same material. This was the first hot blue I ever attempted and probably my last, I spent a bunch of money getting set up to do this and even if the solution can be stored and reused it's still a much bigger and messy job than I anticipated! I suppose for production work in a gunsmith shop this may be the best way to go for most guns but for the occasional re-finisher I think something like a good slow rust blue is a better option and that's what I will use from now on.

[W.R.Buchanan]

OldRed: That is a pretty neat project. The gun looks really nice in the white.

Does it full cock when you open the lever or half cock?

It is one I hope to build a high wall some day. I have seen the drawings for sale on a website but never bought them. Maybe someday.

The burning question I have is,,,, How long did it take you to put the mortise in that block of steel?

I already know it was a significant amount of work, but I don't think most really appreciate what it actually takes to put that square hole in there. And get it in the right place!

Can't wait to see it blued and finished, and shot.

You done real good.

Randy

[oldred]

Does it full cock when you open the lever or half cock?


I made several mods to the design and that was one of them, first I built a carrier for the sear and sear spring that rides in slots in the receiver much like the slots/rails of the lower tang then I redesigned the lower notch in the hammer along with the sear to allow for a much more secure catch in the safety position. Upon closing the lever the hammer rests at about 1/4 cock but with the sear/hammer solidly engaged, until the hammer is fully cocked it probably would require breaking the hammer or sear before the hammer could contact the firing pin. This arrangement eliminates the sear pin that inserts through the receiver just under the hammer and also allows for trigger adjustment.

[BCRider]

As a fellow home machinist I can fully appreciate the time and effort that went into this fantastic piece. The head scratching during the problem solving and arriving at methods must have been quite hard on your scalp :D

As someone that hopes to try something of this sort pretty soon I'd be deeply interested and appreciative if you could give us a little detail on how you cut the mortise out for the falling block and what steps you took to ensure accuracy for this daunting operation. That more than any other step has me scratching my head near to bloodshed :D

[oldred]

if you could give us a little detail on how you cut the mortise out for the falling block and what steps you took to ensure accuracy for this daunting operation. That more than any other step has me scratching my head near to bloodshed :D



I briefly covered that in a more recent follow-up thread on this project in the special projects section,

post #26,
http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?171427-My-special-project

It actually turned out to be easier to do than I at first thought and while it did take some hand finishing for the final fit the results were very satisfactory, it came out working very smooth with no detectable play. Once the hole is drilled to the proper angle it can then be milled into the square shape with a 1/4" end mill then the remaining 1/8" radius corners can be finished by hand using the flats as a guide and a file with a "safe" surface, it actually turned out to be much less of a problem than I expected.

[uscra112]

Apropos not having a mill - there's a guy on the ASSRA forum by the name of Harry Eales. He lives in Britain, and is the living expert on the Sharps Borchardt, as far as I can judge. You should see what he has built, (complete Borchardts) using nothing more than a little bench-top hobbyist mill. A Bridgeport size machine is not needed if you have patience. I'm "getting by" with $750 benchtop myself, the kind that is just a glorified drill press, having given up my US Burke (and my Monarch 10EE) when I relocated from Rhode Island to Michigan in 1994. At first I felt terribly handicapped, but here it is 15 years later and I still have not bought a bigger mill. What Harry uses is even smaller than mine!

[nekshot]

oldred, I was feeling a little down and unmotivated and saw this thread. Wow, what a job! Then I says to myself, if oldred can do this on a lathe, I can maybe do something like this also. You trully have talent!
nekshot

[oldred]

I can maybe do something like this also.nekshot



You betcha you can do it! I would love to see more folks get involved in this part of our sport, building guns is nearly as much fun as shooting them, in lots of ways even more so!

[BCRider]

Oldred, I had actually considered doing something along the lines of your method. But I worried about the accuracy required. It sounds like with some patience, dye and lots of trial fits this is very doable.

A fella that can demonstrate skills like yours doesn't actually NEED a big Bridgeport. Any of the mid size knee mills from the import outfits would serve you nicely. Something such as this Grizzly model for example;

http://www.grizzly.com/products/Heavy-Duty-Mill-Drill-with-Stand-and-Power-Feed/G0755

But if you have your heart set on the real thing then I sure wouldn't say you're over doing it. As the wife said about the last pair of shoes "What's NEED got to do with anything?". :D

[kir_kenix]

Wow, that is beautiful. That is a fine piece you can be proud of. Wish I had that level of skill. I really like the clean sides as you mentioned. Really makes the whole action look clean and sleek.

[sdalcher]

Very well done! Would love to see your drawings! Even though I realize they are a living document and get changed as you go to address unforseen issues.

[oldred]

Actually my drawings consisted of just some hand sketches with the critical angles and dimensions noted along with some photos, these were from a disassembled original that the owner allowed me to examine and measure while he was restoring it. There are however drawings available on E-Bay (just search 1885 Winchester) that are of excellent quality, I have a friend who bought these and after looking at them I find they are very detailed and complete for about $30. In fact these are good quality copies of the original Winchester drawings which have been in the public domain for many years so there is no copyright infringement.