M&P Leading

[BulletFactory]

First 1/2 inch of the barrel is clean, but leading begins after that point.

Gunsmith said bore is .401, I dont have the tools to measure it.
Boolits are .4015 average, depends where you measure, the bullets are a little out of round. Can't make them bigger, or it begins shearing.
Unique powder, 5.2 grains.
180grain LEE TC
1.123 OAL
16BHN
Homemade lube

Thoughts?

[klcarroll]

Hmmm........, Very Odd!

I shoot almost the same load. The only difference is that I am using the tumble-lube version of that boolit.

I have put something like 1500 of those through my nasty $89 Hi Point, and one of my shooting buddies has "borrowed" more than 500 rounds to keep his S&W M&P making noise.

In both weapons, leading has not been an issue.

Maybe experimenting with different lubes might bring a solution to light.

Kent

[Cherokee]

Lube, try something different

[BulletFactory]

Ok, that sounds good.

I tried some LLA, but forgot to size them, duh, so I didnt get to shoot those. Trouble is, the LLA screwed with my asthma really bad, so I'll have to try something else.

[BulletFactory]

Ordered some BAC today, we'll try that and see what happens.

[cajun shooter]

When your barrel leads in the throat and just above it's bullet fit but when it's down the barrel it's most likely the lube being used.
You should have excellent results with the BAC.

[Wayne Smith]

Check your barrel for either a slight obstruction at the barrel threads or a slight bulge where the leading starts.

[BulletFactory]

Its a semi auto.

[geargnasher]

Switch to HS6, start in the middle of the published data.

Gear

[MtGun44]

"Or it begins shearing"??????

What does that mean?

Bill

[rsrocket1]

If the first half of the barrel is clean and the lead is toward the end, it signifies too high a velocity for the lube setup. Your lube may be failing. 5.2g Unique is probably close to or above 1000 fps. I was getting 980 with 5.0g Unique last fall out of my 4.25" M&P40.

My barrel slugged at .397". I've shot a couple hundred of my own Lee 401-175-TC tumble lubed in Recluse's formula and get no leading with an as cast diameter of 0.4015-0.403".

I have a feeling a different lube will fix this.

[BulletFactory]

"Or it begins shearing"??????

What does that mean?

Bill

When the bullets get too big, ie. as cast, or sized too large, they will start to shear lead off of them as they hit the lip where the case mouth headspaces. After a few rounds, the lead will build up enough to prevent the gun from going into battery.

[geargnasher]

You STILL haven't lapped that throat out? And you expect it to shoot?

Gear

[popper]

Use Recluse's 45/45/10 or just 50/50 lla/jpw without cooking. Mix or cook outside where the fumes blow away. Drop a large pea sized glob in a baggie with ~100 CB and massage. dump em on some wax paper and leave where it doesn't bother you. Any soft lube will have fumes that will bother you. This stuff does work and it does sound like your lube gets blown out the barrel. I shoot the 180 T/C without the 'shearing' problem, 5-6 unique with minimal leading. Is your lead too soft? I'm trying the Lee SWC and by manually cycling, I don't see any 'shearing',but the nose does bump the cylinder leaving dents(I need to seat deeper). You could be getting lead deposits at the throat from gas cutting, not shearing. Are your cases real sooty at the mouth? I've gotten really tiny beads of lead at the chamber using hp-38. Something to think about.

[BulletFactory]

You STILL haven't lapped that throat out? And you expect it to shoot?

Gear

I decided to put up with the leading in the XD once I decided to get the M&P.

[HeavyMetal]

To stop the "shaving" of lead when seating boolits in 40 ( or any other case for that matter) S&W case:

1 clean cases well

2 size all cases, if they are bought once fired or range pick up's run them all through a "de Glocking" sizing die!

3 get one of Lymans 10 degree VLD case chamfering tools and do all your case mouths!

4 use a case expander button at least .001 over boolit diameter and adjust it to allow the boolit to seat around the boolit base, squarely, before the loaded round enters the seating die.

5 crimp in a seperate operation and do not over crimp! Taper crimp dies are the worst for mis adjustment: you only need to straighten the case and you can adjust this best by feel and the use of a good magnifiying glass.

6 avoid Lee FCD die in pistol calibers.

I will also suggest Lee's 145 grain SWC mold or one of the 150 grain TC group buy molds, if you can find one!

Boolits heavier than 150 make no sense in the 40 S&W as they are to slow for pressures generated. I cured a buddies XD of shooting high by switching him from factory 180's to my 145 cast load.

The XD now shoots to POA and has more energy with less felt recoil!

[Iron Mike Golf]

HeavyMetal,

His shearing problem with using a slightly larger boolit (which would likely fix his leading issues) is not shaving when seating his boolits. It's lead being shaved off at the barrel throat as the boolit leaves the case.

[BulletFactory]

correct.

[shootinxd]

After fighting the dreaded leading in my XD,I decided to study the SAAMI 40 cal specs.Low and behold loading just like the specs sheet my leading is GONE!Make sure your case when loaded meets this spec(some one posted an adobe pdf)I was not seating the boolit deep enough,case was under size to chamber and I started using a slower powder.I just shot 36 rnds and just a trace of powder residue and lube was left behind.Thanks to ALL for helping me and putting up with all the questions.My pet load is now 170rnfp from MiHec,1.115oal with 5.5grns of AA #5.Do yourself a favor and reset all youre dies from scratch,I know this sounds simple but sometimes we can't see the trees from the forest.My XD took me almost 2 yrs to get right but boy was it worth it.Now time to start my pot and get loading.I wanna shoot these things.

[popper]

If the case mouth is properly seated when firing, it won't shave lead there. The CB is in the barrel, not the chamber. If it is shaving on cycling, you should see that on a CB when manually cycling. If the HS is incorrect or cases are too short, case push-back will leave room for gas cut lead to accumulate. If the chamber and bore are not aligned, there could be shaving, I think the OP said it was an aftermarket barrel, if that is the problem, get it fixed. -- shootinxd -- I've shot ~1K of MBC 180 t/c in my xd, the only leading I've had was using hp-38 or too hot a load. Over 2k rounds through it with only one stuck rnd, probably missed crimp on that one. Oh yea, blew the back off an FC marked case. Like a timex, just keeps on ticking.

[shootinxd]

1+ popper,use a magnifying glass on a loaded round(no powder)after hand cycling thru your gun and see if the boolit is being shaved by the barrels lead.If so you need to find a load that permits a shorted OAL.I had problems with the TC boolit in my XD.The rnfp oal,AA#5 and resetting my seating die and lee fcd die set to just touch the case mouth.I size to .4015 and use carnuba red in a RCBS lubamatic.Just dont give up,it can be done.

[mpmarty]

Had similar problems with my XD in 45acp. Finally solved it by selling the XD. My colt 1911s do just fine without any fuss or bother. XDs are not made in the US and I question their uniformity and finish as it seems Springfield Armory uses customers as final quality control employees.

[BulletFactory]

Someday, I'll get a 1911. I want a custom one, so its going to be a long time. The lowest I'd take is a TRP, then Id want to have work done to it. For now, I'll have to make this M&P work.

As soon as I finish this can of unique, I'll try the HS-6. I don't like the way the Unique meters. I've seen it dump half a charge in one case, and the following case gets the charge and a half. Im about tempted to just make one big firecracker out of the rest, and be done with it. Only loaded a couple hundred rounds from it though, its still practically full.

[geargnasher]

Bulletfactory, drill a hole square and centered in the base of one of your boolits (I assume TC design) so you can screw it onto a short section of cleaning rod. Coat the nose with fine valve lapping compound, clamp the barrel in a vise, and lap the sharp edge off of the end of the chamber. You can use a drill or do it by hand. Raise the lap slightly every two or three revolutions to wick some of the fresh paste back into the working area.

Gear

[BulletFactory]

Will do. Turns out, my dad has some of that stuff left over from his GM days. Found it when I cleaned his garage for him. How do you get it to stick to the boolit? This stuff is a powder. Do I put oil on it?

[geargnasher]

It's a paste. Grit + grease.

Ask your Dad to describe the hand-lapping technique to you, it's kind of a spin-touch-lift, spin-touch-lift thing.

Gear

[rsrocket1]

Someday, I'll get a 1911. I want a custom one, so its going to be a long time. The lowest I'd take is a TRP, then Id want to have work done to it. For now, I'll have to make this M&P work.


Too bad. I have a Thompson Auto Ordnance 1911 from the 1980's. Probably one of the most criticized and cursed at versions around and I absolutely love it. Out of the box, it shot hardball fine, but choked on SWC's and left quite a few empty cases in the chamber. After buying a new extractor and polishing the ramp and hood, it now feeds the 451-230-TC's perfectly 100% of the time and kicks the cases out reliably.

The short 4lb trigger pull makes accurate shooting a breeze and the 2-1/2 pound frame absorbs recoil very well.

A temperamental 1911 is a pain in the neck to own, but a reliable accurate 1911 is an absolute pleasure.

[HeavyMetal]

I understand the issue with, what strikes me as, 40 S&W barrels that are "short Chambered".

This is a misnomer of course but seems to be the best way to describe the condition of the chamber area in most 40's.

I suspect firing cast was never considered when chambering reamers were discussed in pre production meetings.

Once again this "drove" me to my selection of "Lite" boolits for the 40 S&W. The 145 Lee SWC and the 150 grain TC group buy both seat to a much shorter OAL than the heavier 175 tp 200 grain boolits. The Lee 145 sitting on my desk barely has any exposed boolit "shoulder" and has an OAL of 1.109 and has fed perfectly in the XD my buddy has.

Gear's suggestion of "lapping" the edge of the chamber mouth is a good one my only change would be to use several Jacketed bullets as they will "cut" faster and, I think, leave a smoother finish than a lead boolit.

Hope I helped.

[BulletFactory]

I understand the issue with, what strikes me as, 40 S&W barrels that are "short Chambered".

This is a misnomer of course but seems to be the best way to describe the condition of the chamber area in most 40's.

I suspect firing cast was never considered when chambering reamers were discussed in pre production meetings.

Once again this "drove" me to my selection of "Lite" boolits for the 40 S&W. The 145 Lee SWC and the 150 grain TC group buy both seat to a much shorter OAL than the heavier 175 tp 200 grain boolits. The Lee 145 sitting on my desk barely has any exposed boolit "shoulder" and has an OAL of 1.109 and has fed perfectly in the XD my buddy has.

Gear's suggestion of "lapping" the edge of the chamber mouth is a good one my only change would be to use several Jacketed bullets as they will "cut" faster and, I think, leave a smoother finish than a lead boolit.

Hope I helped.


Sure, but I cant justify the cost of J bullets.

In the case of the XD it doesnt matter how deeply the boolits are set into the case. The problem occurs when the boolit passes the lip entering the throat. Short or long, the result is the same. The barrel itself is making the boolits too small for the bore before they ever get to the lands and grooves.

The OAL is currently 1.123.

They never intended cast boolits for Springfield weapons, in fact, it voids the warranty.

[shootinxd]

Cerosafe is 25 bucks from midway.Make a chamber casting to know for sure .I went to the round nose flat point seated to an oal of 1.115 and my XD shoots with NO leading.My barrel is as close to SAAMI specs as it gets.When I tried the lee 175TC I had the same issue with the boolit nose being cut by the lead of the barrel like OP described.I also tried the 145 grn lee mold with feed issues.

[HeavyMetal]

I was only suggesting the Jacketed bullets as a lapping tool, for that you'll only need one or two.

If I had any I would donate them to the cause, surely someone else will make such an offer.

As far as the XD and the warranty is concerned?

It doesn't surprise me! Making a chamber casting with some Cerrosafe is a good idea! Plus the stuff is re-usable!

With a good casting of the chamber you may see other issues that should be addressed as well. Such as an adjustment in the leade, that protion of the rifling just in front of the chamber, which may make the gun a lot more lead friendly.

If this turns out to be the case a brass or Bronze lap may be custom made to cure the chamber issue, only a good chamber casting will tell you this.

It's a shame that one has to "repair" a pistol he's just purchased but it has been that way as far back as I can remember!

I had a bud buy a new Colt 1911 series 80 gun and it never shot right from the get go.

Stripped down I found all the support for the main spring housing / flat trigger return spring simply wasn't in the gun! It had been milled off the left side of the frame in production and never detected by QC!

Colt replaced the frame and it was a much nicer shooter after that!

I'll stop rambling now, Good luck with the XD.

[popper]

And who's operating manual doesn't say reloads of any kind will void the warrenty?

[popper]

Just hammered a .403 as cast 18 BHN CB into my XD barrel. It shaves the .001 off and has to go somewhere. Mics at .402 and .398 groove- probably VERY close to yours. I've been shooting .401 with little problem. I need to open my new .401 sizer(which is actually .400) up a bit. I would be careful about lapping the step in the throat to a taper - you might end up pinching a case mouth into that taper and increasing pressure mightily. I understand gear is trying to get the bullet to swage down instead of shaving. We should fit our bullets to the gun, not the other way around. I would suggest you size to .402 and try that or stay with the .401. Definitely use the recluse lube to reduce the leading.

[geargnasher]

Just hammered a .403 as cast 18 BHN CB into my XD barrel. It shaves the .001 off and has to go somewhere. Mics at .402 and .398 groove- probably VERY close to yours. I've been shooting .401 with little problem. I need to open my new .401 sizer(which is actually .400) up a bit. I would be careful about lapping the step in the throat to a taper - you might end up pinching a case mouth into that taper and increasing pressure mightily. I understand gear is trying to get the bullet to swage down instead of shaving. We should fit our bullets to the gun, not the other way around. I would suggest you size to .402 and try that or stay with the .401. Definitely use the recluse lube to reduce the leading.

Uh, OK. Many guns have to be modified to shoot cast, and I really don't understand your warning here. Do you really think it's possible to lap the throat out so much with a .401" boolit that it will move out the front of the chamber enough to "pinch" a case mouth? All I suggested was to break the edge, and the "tool" I suggested he make is incapable of doing what you suggest because it is not physically large enough. "Throating" a gun is a very common job for gunsmiths, this is no different in concept.

The M&P .40, like most automatics, headspaced more on the extractor claw and bullet/boolit than on the case mouth. In fact, in mine, you can file the rim off of one side of a case so the extracter doesn't have anything to grab, prime the case, chamber it in the gun, and the firing pin won't reach the primer enough to pop it. I actually did this once to prove a point. Did the same thing for my Kimber .45 as well. So, he could bore the chamber out to 10mm Auto and it wouldn't matter as long as the extractor was good. Also, even if one did manage to cram a .425" lap down the chamber and bore out the front of the chamber deeper (which would take about thirty years with a lead lap) so that the case mouth actually "pinched", a lead boolit will just squeeze right through. No worries.

Gear

[popper]

gear - not arguing. I think he is speaking of the XD, not the M&P although I think the problem is the same for both. My XD doesn't HS on the extractor. Any work done in the chamber area is irreversible - unless you buy another barrel. If you round the corner off and it still deposits lead, there is just a bigger area for the deposits. He could have the throat enlarged, but then there might be a problem with jacketed rounds. Click on the user name and look at the other post and maybe you will see the reason for my warning.

[BulletFactory]

I am speaking of the XD. I haven't gotten to know the M&P that closely yet.

Dangit! I forgot to pick up the lapping compound from my dads today. :sad:

[popper]

Gear, I think you are meaning to have him make a mini revolver forcing cone at the step. If he did it in the throat, it might help, but my XD (match barrel) throat is only 1/10" long with NO taper. My Xd shoots .401 with minor leading - bore is .402. I'm thinking I will try a TL SWC design and size the front band to .401 to eliminate shaving and leave the grooves and back band as cast to provide better sealing. That should eliminate shaving and allow the lead to get swaged into the lube grooves, not the throat step. I'll play with the OAL for cycling and if that doesn't work I may try removing the nose step in the SWC or find a T/C TL mould design.

[geargnasher]

Popper, it either swages or shaves. If the edge is sharp, it will shave any oversized part of the boolit, or any part of the boolit that doesn't hit it just right, rather than swage the boolit metal down. That's the problem BF has been fighting for the last year. They shave copper, too, I've found flecks of shaved copper on my chronograph. Five minutes to break the edge of the chamber mouth will solve this problem.

Gear

[popper]

If a first you don't succeed... NTD appears to have the same problem. I shoot an XDm .40; put 200 MBC #5 downrange at a time. Commercial hard cast, their lube and undersized bullets (.402 barrel, .401 CB), 6 gr. Unique. Worst possible case, right? Melt em down and don't buy anymore, right? My barrel doesn't look anything like his. Run a brush through it and a tight patch and its good to go.

[BulletFactory]

Waiting for the BAC lube to arrive. Meanwhile, I'll get the lapping compound, and try to get the XD to work.

[BulletFactory]

OK, still waiting for the BAC.

It worked. I lapped the edge and a bit of the throat, and even with my homemade lube and unique powder, I only got a teensy bit of leading. I'd be willing to bet, that once I get the BAC lube, and the HS-6 in there, it will work fine. Can't wait to try.

Cruel irony ahead.>

My best friend is living in an apartment, and all he has to defend his family, is a scoped 30-06 Remmington 721. That's just a really bad idea all the way around, so I'm going to give him the XD. Im really going to miss that ugly little gun. It's been a good one, my first. I bought it, and have carried it, mainly open, for the last couple years, nearly 24/7. I basically married that little gun. It started my reloading as well, I've learned so much because of that gun.

Sigh. I'll load a hundred with the BAC and the HS-6, and see if that did the trick. Thanks so much guys for everything I've learned. I have only just begun.

On to the M&P.

[popper]

Re-slugged the bbl of my XD-40 with a pure lead CB, muzzle to chamber. Interesting that once the excess lead was shaved of at the muzzle, the bullet easily pushed through the rest of the bbl., as expected. Had to bang it to get it out of the throat. I assume they make the throat tighter(don't know how or why can't tell if it is the throat or a ridge at the step). The throat lapping makes sense for this case. Any ideas gear? Time to get another tin of Clover, knew I should have kept that last one.

[geargnasher]

Throat restriction? Sounds like it to me. If so, firelap it and fix both problems at once.

Gear

[popper]

Seems like BF removed his by lapping. Don't have the tools to figure out where or what the restriction is, is this something that is done by design or tooling? Getting ready to cast for this one, bore is .389 and groove is .401 but muzzle end is .398 and .402. I need to hone out the sizer to at least .401, preferably .402 -can't go back and don't want to buy another sizer. If I do what BF did, I should be able to go to .402. By the way, the M plug for .40 is actually the same as my RCBS plug (.397) so I need to find/make an oversized plug. Guess I'll start out at .401 and go from there.

[geargnasher]

Be sure your new expander (I use .400" for .4015-.402" boolits) is long enough too, about .025" below where the bottom of your base band resides when the boolit is fully seated where you like it.

I think BF cut the bevel off his chamber by spinning a tapered hand lap in there, firelapping involves shooting extremely low-velocity, grit-embedded boolits through it, usually a series at a time like five or ten, then cleaning and re-slugging the barrel. Fire lapping is neat because the grit breaks down into smaller pieces under pressure and reduces the amount it cuts very quickly, so it will have the effect of reversing the taper in your barrel if you do it enough. Firelapping always cuts the chamber end more than the muzzle.

I have a Kimber .l45 ACP with this very same issue, it's .453" at the muzzle groove and .4515" at the chamber groove. Yes, it leads with most loads. I haven't bothered to fix it yet.

Gear

[popper]

Did you make your expander or buy it? I've thought of using JB weld to build it up and then grind to size. It's epoxy and granite mix so it should be fairly tough. Don't have a machine shop to make my own. I got the 31R for my 30-30 and turned it down, but don't really know what to get for the 40 SW. It is also a disappointment as the 'step' isn't very much at all. Anyone here have dimensions for the .41 M plug?

[popper]

Re-slugged my MG 336 30-30 rom the muzzle end. Same results as the 40SW. Once the bullet is in the bbl, it runs smooth until the throat. Neither have had bad leading that wasn't caused by me. I'm guessing the lands are taler at the throat than the muzzle, which makes sense.

[geargnasher]

Popper, that sounds like copper fouling to me. It's always worse near the breech end.

Gear

[BulletFactory]

Get all of the copper out. Im short on time tonight, but I'll try to get more in depth tomorrow.

look up deltaenterprises, he will make you an expander cheap. I love mine, its done many thousands of rounds with it.

SUCCESS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

After many many posts, questions, threads, rounds, changes and frustrations, I shot a hundred today with absolutely zero leading.

The HS-6 did the trick, thanks gear, that was the missing piece.

WDWW
HS-6
7.3 grains
1.120 OAL
.4015
Accurate 40-160b
BAC lube, whitelabellubes
Standard primers

[geargnasher]

Hmmm, that load looks very, very familiar, except I use a COAL of 1.118" for the M&P, 7.5 grains of HS6, 50/50 BAC/Carnauba Red, and the Lee 175 TC sized basically the same size plus or minus a couple of tenths. Little nuances that differ between our guns and moulds.

Gear

[popper]

Nope, absolutely clean bore. I'm going to partial slug it from both ends when I get a time. Been shooting commercial .310 and .311 with reasonable results. Thanks, I'll look into deltaenterprises. Do they make it for the M or RCBS plug?

[BulletFactory]

Thanks for all the help gear. I really appreciate it. Just goes to show, don't give up.

[BulletFactory]

I'm getting a little bit of leading very close to the rifling. The rest of the bore is clean.

What am I missing here?

:?:

[shootinxd]

Whats your definition of a little bit of leading?How hard is it to clean?Might try a STARTING load of a slower powder.I currently am using AA#5 @ 5.5grns with a 170 Mihec rnfp with fantastic results.

[BulletFactory]

Im running 7.3 HS-6, a low/mid charge with a slow powder.

It shows up after 25 rounds, its not difficult to clean, but I want it right.

A little after 25 shots is a lot after 250, and accuracy will suffer.

[geargnasher]

Shoot 250 rounds and see if your speculations are correct before you get wrapped around the axle. Is the "lead" in the corner of the trailing edge land where it meets the groove? This is fairly common and usually not problematic unless it accumulates. IF this is what you're seeing, the boolit is unable to make a dynamic seal on the trailing edge due to acceleration forces and the brittleness of your alloy. A stiffer lube, believe it or not, can help here, as of course a gas-check design will too. I like to mix Carnauba Red 50/50 with BAC for the .40 for just this reason, when the barrel is hot and you're running multiple, rapid-fire courses with the gun, the lube can break down and lose viscosity enough to allow leaks that normally would not. The trade off is cold barrel inaccuracy, but you won't notice it with a pistol at normal ranges.

What you're seeing might also be a little antimony wash. This is going to happen if you don't add some tin to your WDWW. Basically you ignore it or add tin, it really makes no difference since the antimony is fairly easy to clean up and doesn't accumulate or affect accuracy like lead sometimes does.

The addition of about 1-2% tin will also make your WD alloy tougher and more malleable, so it's able to make a better dymamic seal as it travels the bore and encounters machining irregularites.

Gear

[BulletFactory]

Thanks.

I was running BAC, until I read your lube recommendation, then I ordered some carnauba red to make it a 50/50 mix. It should arrive in a couple days.

I'll try to get hold of some tin though, it can't hurt, and should help the molds fill out a little better too.

I know that its lead, not antimony, because I got a little sliver to come out, and was able to bend it around like a tiny wire.

[BulletFactory]

soooo close.

[sig2009]

I have pretty much given up on casting for 9mm and 40 S&W. Every gun leads pretty bad. It took me almost and hour last week to clean the barrel on a Browning Hi Power! Everything else works fine. BAC never worked for those calibers.

[shootinxd]

@ Gear,how about straight Carnuba Red?

[geargnasher]

Try it and see. You will need a heater of some sort for your sizer.

Gear

[BulletFactory]

I pan lube, no sizer

[geargnasher]

Use 50/50, and add a little anhydrous lanolin if you have it at about a tablespoon per pound to add a little more tack to it. Cut the boolits out of the cake while it's still somewhat warm, body temperature at least.

Gear

[BulletFactory]

50/50 BAC/RED?

Will do, I'll have to go get some lanolin.

Leah said they should be able to ship my lube on saturday.

[BulletFactory]

I'm just baffled as to why they worked last week, and not now. I didn't change anything.

[shooter1059]

I just have to ask. Heavy Metal earlier recommended against using a Lee factory crimp die on the 40 S&W. I would like to know why?

[popper]

Sometimes it resizes the CB which can cause leading. Leading can be small strips of lead or more often a grey gunk in the rifling. Push a TIGHT patch through (2 or 3 patches at the same time) and you will see the gunk and small lead flecks. If you look down the cleaned bbl and see small bumps, get out the copper chore-boy.

[BulletFactory]

Right, the expander, and the FCD can both swage a boolit in the case. Thats why uou measure a pulled bullet from a completed round. It doesnt matter whatr size the bullet leaves the sizer dies at, it matters what size the boolit is when it enters the barrel.

I've seen them leave the die at over .401, but leave a case at .398

[BulletFactory]

Got the lube, 50/50 BAC/RED.

Its still leading following the rifling. BHN at 22. I even opened up the sizer to .4022, thats as big as I can go. Should I go a little softer with the alloy? Still need tin, just no cash. :(

Visible leading buildup after only 25 shots.

[shootinxd]

In the XD or the M&P?I switched to AA#5 and just very small amount of lead just at the start of the leade.I might lighten the load just a tad.

[slim400]

what are boolit made of

[BulletFactory]

M&P.

The boolets are mostly WW. Theres some alloy I picked up last year, dont now its composition.

[popper]

You like the M&P better than the XD? I need something for the other hand.

[BulletFactory]

I like them both actually. When I first bought the M&P, I was pretty disappointed with the trigger, I was considering selling the gun, and buying an XDM 5.25. I bought the FSS trigger kit from APEX Tactical, and the RAM; installed them, and simply could not be happier with the gun now. I l-o-v-e this gun . I wish they had 6 grooves instead of 5, makes accurate measurements impossible. My gunsmith says it's .401, Im taking his word for it. He also reloads, and he's like 110 years old, so I guess he knows what he's doing.

With the FSS kit, the takeup is reduced, the trigger runs like butter, the break is easy and crisp. The RAM gives the gun a reset that is otherwise non existent. If you use the springs that come with the kit, your trigger pull will remain at 4 1/2 to 5 pounds. I wanted it lighter, so I used the factory trigger spring, and the factory sear spring, yeilding a trigger pull of 3 1/2 pounds. The gun is plenty accurate too, the trigger itself cut my group size down by 1/3rd or better.

[BulletFactory]

Not mine, but here ya go. It acts like a 1911 trigger with a glock/XD safety

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fkJs70WudlM

[sig2009]

I like them both actually. When I first bought the M&P, I was pretty disappointed with the trigger, I was considering selling the gun, and buying an XDM 5.25. I bought the FSS trigger kit from APEX Tactical, and the RAM; installed them, and simply could not be happier with the gun now. I l-o-v-e this gun . I wish they had 6 grooves instead of 5, makes accurate measurements impossible. My gunsmith says it's .401, Im taking his word for it. He also reloads, and he's like 110 years old, so I guess he knows what he's doing.

With the FSS kit, the takeup is reduced, the trigger runs like butter, the break is easy and crisp. The RAM gives the gun a reset that is otherwise non existent. If you use the springs that come with the kit, your trigger pull will remain at 4 1/2 to 5 pounds. I wanted it lighter, so I used the factory trigger spring, and the factory sear spring, yeilding a trigger pull of 3 1/2 pounds. The gun is plenty accurate too, the trigger itself cut my group size down by 1/3rd or better.

Had an M&P .357 sig and did the Apex thing. Gun was inaccurate before the Apex work and was inaccurate after the work so I sold it. Never looked back.

[BulletFactory]

Its no target gun, but it isnt bad. If I could just get the lead out of the barrel...

I took the P-22 and the M&P to shoot, but only grabed one target. [smilie=b:

http://i765.photobucket.com/albums/xx294/stainless1911/MPTarget.jpg

[geargnasher]

Forgive me if we've been over this before, but are you getting real leading, or antimony wash?

Gear

[sig2009]

Its no target gun, but it isnt bad. If I could just get the lead out of the barrel...

I took the P-22 and the M&P to shoot, but only grabed one target. [smilie=b:

http://i765.photobucket.com/albums/xx294/stainless1911/MPTarget.jpg

Shot mine from 25 yards and 6 people could not hit paper. Terrible gun! Only S&W products that I care for are their revolvers. Their semi autos suck!

[BulletFactory]

Now Im a bit lost. Just to see what happened, I loaded up 40 rounds with Unique, without changing anything else, and I got less leading that I usually get after 25 rounds HS-6. That doesnt make sense. Its still following the rifling. I wasnt really checking for accuracy this time, just shooting for fun. Voted, then went to the range.

I hate the way Unique meters, and don't want to be stuck with that powder.

Current load

Mixed brass, deburred
7.3 HS-6 (today, it was 5.3 Unique)
1.120 OAL
sized to .4022. They are actualy round this time, the die came out nice
WSP primers
165 grain WDWW. (didn't let them age,) Ive been shooting faster than I can make them
Pulled boolits do not change diameter.
50/50 BAC/RED

[BulletFactory]

I should have this down by now. :killingpc

[geargnasher]

How much had THIS batch of WDWW aged? If they weren't fully hardened, you just threw a monkey wrench into the works. Your Unique load might not work so well in a couple of days. Don't chase your tail here, cast a big pile of them and set them aside, and shoot "green" ones in the meantime. The kind of leading you're experiencing is easy enough to remove, and probably can just be left alone. Often I find that leading "following" the rifling doesn't build up past a certain point and rarely affects accuracy much, so you could just leave it alone and not worry about it. If it shoots straight for long strings, a little leading really doesn't mean much.

I still think you need to add at least 1% tin to your mix.

Gear

[BulletFactory]

I'll add some tin, just have to get the cash. Thats hard sometimes.

As far as the aging, I've been casting one day, and shooting the next.

I hope the unique doesnt work, I just dont trust the way it meters. The powder measure is on my Tmag turret press, so I use a drop tube to funnel the powder down to my tray of cases. I have one of those funnel things that the Dr. looks at your ears with attatched to a clear hose, and sometimes the Unique will drop half charge into the case, and the rest stays in the tube. The next case gets its charge, plus whatever wasnt dropped into the previous case. This is dangerous to say the least. I have to watch every single charge drop. No other powder has given me this problem.

HS-6 meters perfectly, and shoots very very well. The other day, I had half a mag full of reloads, and the other half was FMJ. I shot the mag out , and couldn't tell the difference in felt recoil.

I'll make up a batch of rounds, let them cure for a week, and then try again.

[popper]

Today I shot the first I've cast, Lee 175 SWC & TC. in XDm .40. No cycling problems, minor leading, no accuracy loss. 20 of each under 5 Unique, followed by 100 MBC #5. 10y, sorry but I'm not a very good shot. Except for O-H, shot resting hands on bench.

[BulletFactory]

I do my load development from a bench, prone, or supported kneeling, that way I can tell if a change I made opens up or closes a group.

[geargnasher]

I'll add some tin, just have to get the cash. Thats hard sometimes.

As far as the aging, I've been casting one day, and shooting the next.

I'll make up a batch of rounds, let them cure for a week, and then try again.

Didn't we learn you nuthin? :kidding:

If they're air-cooled, you might want to wait three weeks for the purposes of load development.

If they're water-quenched, 24 hours to a month depending on the alloy composition and difference in boolit/quench water temperature.

Gear

[BulletFactory]

lol, I deserved that.

Thanks for your patience.

[popper]

Can't use bags at this range, for pistol. I was really wanting to make sure my CBs were as good as store-bought and had no problems. Now I get to play with alloy and powder. Actually the right pic was one-handed standing. As you can see, my trigger control isn't that great.

[BulletFactory]

Its just practice my friend. Try snapcaps, a lot. Another technique, aim your empty gun at a clean white wall, I used a sheet of paper taped to the wall, muzzle an inch or so away, And practice trigger control, the muzzle should not move. Balance a penny on the front sight, practice, you should be able to extend your arm, squeeze the trigger, and keep the penny balanced through the entire pull. Do this a lot. Load some dummy rounds, empty, dead primers. When you load the rest of your ammo, throw them in your ammo box. As you load them, you will not know which rounds will not fire. When you get to that round, and break the shot, if there is any unnatural movement in the muzzle, you will notice immediately. Do this A- LOT, you will improve your shooting dramatically. Post a target here in a couple weeks, you'll see.

:popcorn:

[geargnasher]

Good advice on practicing. Don't feel too bad, Popper, I can't shoot a pistol very well myself, never have been able to and I used to do a lot of IDPA shooting, but most of my life up to that point I used nothing but long guns.

I wish somebody would make an IR snap cap with rubber o-rings that fit snugly in a chamber and "bleeped" an invisible pinpoint beam at an electronic target board which would then display a "bullet hole" right where the bore was pointed when the striker fell. Being able to see "hits" really helps. I found dry-firing with a laser sight or even a red dot helps you see all the shake and waver at 15 and 25 yards that one doesn't notice when just looking at the front sight, or focusing on the target itself. I think that's where I went wrong for years with my dry-firing, I worked on draw, presentation, and firing, but not so much on accuracy, and developed some really bad grip habits that don't show up until recoil is involved.

Anyway, practice, but practice the right things.

Gear

[Grandpas50AE]

When being trained in the MP's decades ago, we did similar to what BulletFactory said, except we placed a regular pencil (sharpened) into the barrel so that when we sqeezed the trigger and the hammer fell the pencil lead would leave a mark on the paper. You could see where your hit was. This worked really well, you'd be surprised at how many folks who never handled a handgun did well on the qualification shoot.

BulletFactory, I don't like the way Unique measures either, and quit using it long ago. One powder I use in the semi-autos a lot is SR4756. It measures beautifully, fills the case enough to not allow a double charge, burns clean, and is consistent from canister to canister over several decades. Another, more contemporary powder, that does like-wise is Power Pistol. You may try one of those, they are really great powders in most semi-autos.

[BulletFactory]

Gear, try this

http://www.midwayusa.com/product/796020/laserlyte-laser-training-system-for-9mm-to-45-caliber-pistols-with-minimum-2-barrel-red

[popper]

I've done the drills, that is not the problem. I have to shoot open sights with left eye and shot gun with right, pistol shooting for me is kind of like shotgun, point and shoot, get back on target and shoot again. Maybe 5 seconds between shots - but not just blasting away- I do have a goal. Muscle memory with Alzheimers doesn't help either. I can't hit anything with a revolver, never have been able to.

[geargnasher]

Thanks for the link BF, that's almost what I was looking for, might do well enough.

Gear

[BulletFactory]

I wasnt going for accuracy, but I went through 125 rounds that cured for a week. They left some leading following the rifling again, but it was pretty light. I'll check the hardness once I get woken up here. I doubt that its ever going to be perfect, it is a .40.

[popper]

Plain based my Lee SWC mould and cast ~300 with 50/50 Pb/#2, added some shot, but AC (~10 BHN). I use kerosine, ATF and Kroil for cleaner. One swipe with a brush and a tight patch and the bbl is clean as a whistle. Going to try to put them down range tomorrow, compare PB and BB, I rigged up a way to use a rest that they will allow. I use unique in a case with a wire on it and candle wax in it for a measure. Beats trickling - dip a heaping case, scrape the top with the funnel and drop it --- +/- .2 grn.

[geargnasher]

You know they make decent powder measures for pretty cheap, right Popper? :kidding:

Gear

[popper]

Yea, I've got a RCBS one, just don't use it for pistol Unique loads. Blew through 250 rnds this morning. I think my CB shoot a little better than MBC 180s, a lot cheaper. I think BF alloy is too hard, mine is about 10 and NO leading. I can't tell any difference between TC and SWC, just a bit between FB and BB. HP-38(231) is much snappier, giving me verticle stringing(recoil) vs the same Unique load. Used a rest this time so my aim is much better.

[BulletFactory]

10 bhn, in a .40?

ok I'll try to lighten things up a bit, my alloy air cools at about 13

Nice targets BTW. [smilie=w:

[popper]

I don't have a tester, just using charts about alloy and hardening, so my alloy should cast at 8 and harden to 10 in a week. I remember you saying you WD and had a BHN of 22, the reason for my comment. MBC #5 is 18, supposedly optimized. I got some leading from them. Others have said there is a problem with the SWC in an XDm but I haven't had a problem. I still like the unique load better than the HP-38, less flip. Oh, I carry a micro flashlite and chore-boy brush to the range. I check for leading after each experiment so the leading is not cumulative.

[BulletFactory]

I clean the bore completely before any changes are made.

Unique shoots great, but I dont like the way it meters at all.

I don't know why the WDWW are so hard, I am guessing that it is heavy in antimony and arsenic.

My car is stuck, so I havent been able to shoot as often as I usually do. But Im about to go run a couple hundred rounds and see if the accuracy falls off, or if the leading stabilises or builds.

[BulletFactory]

I just checked the BHN on WDWW after a week, they are at 20.5

[BulletFactory]

I got 35 pounds of mystery alloy, I'll try casting with it today, and will check the hardness over the next couple weeks. We'll see how it shoots.

[popper]

I think wijen? here has a chart on his HT experiments, which will apply to WD also. His data is very close to what I've found from other sources.