Pyrodex P in 45 Colt Cases

[philthephlier]

Does Pyrodex P have to be compressed in 45 Colt Cartridges? Is it safe if the powder fills the case to just below the bullet's base? By just below I mean 1/16".

[cajun shooter]

Hodgdon has all the info on their web site. You should research the pyrodex if you have never used it in a cartridge case. It is not a black powder but a very poor substitute. If nothing else clean your gun after firing if you want to keep it.
You can shoot the real thing which is much easier and better to use.

[oldred]

It is not a black powder but a very poor substitute.

IMO a VERY poor substitute is an understatement! If a person don't want to use smokeless why bother with the likes of Pyrodex? The stuff is not BP by any stretch and has no advantage over the real thing, plus it is far more corrosive and does not store nearly as well. Real BP is a shooting sport that is very different than using smokeless and Pyrodex has few of the desirable attributes of real BP and none of the desirable attributes of smokeless. Ok, sorry for the rant but I had nothing but bad experience with Pyrodex back when I used it, after a while I began to wonder why I was using it in the first place instead of the real BP.


Now about your question, the advice already given about consulting the Hodgdon site is excellent advice but yes as a "rule" there should be no air gap between the projectile and the powder. Not sure if you would encounter a problem with as little gap as you re talking about but I think the recommendation is the bullet needs to be fully against the powder.

[Nobade]

You have already been given the advise I would give. But to answer your question, it will burn poorly and not work well if it is not compressed quite tightly. Minimum 1/8 inch and more is better up to a point.

And if you shoot it in a revolver take the thing down to the last screw and clean it good. Then wait a week and clean it again. Wait a month and if it's not rusty yet then it's likely safe to put it back together. Don't ask how I know...

[cajun shooter]

oldred, I have been posting answers about the use of any sub and why people use it for years. Not just here but on the other forums also, such as SASS. I have shot BP since 1970 starting out with C&B REVOLVERS and A 50 Caliber Hawken which I still have. I have even posted pictures that show the damage that is caused by it's use.
I have finally stopped and decided to let them have it as some refuse to listen to common sense.
The name of this subject column is BLACK POWDER CARTRIDGE!! If you choose to shoot the subs then that is why we are Americans and have the freedom of choice.
But I feel that this forum should have a separate place that concerns the loading and shooting of the subs. They are not in any way the same as the real BLACK POWDER and only have an additive to produce the smoke. They don't have the sparks or flames like the real BP. They are also in an entire different pressure range.
I see where another one has just been produced that is for use in in-line rifles which is a back door approach to circumvent the hunting laws IMHO.
If you live on a road that has a postal address then you may purchase the real Black Powder.
This is not meant to put down on any persons choice or shooting practice as I firmly believe in freedom of choice.
My problem is that you don't take your Toyota to a Nissan dealer for work or Questions.

[oldred]

Yep I couldn't agree with you more and if a person does not want to use BP then they would be better off just using a low pressure smokeless load as a substitute instead. I ruined a Ruger Old Army with pyrodex and I have been told I just didn't clean it good enough but my gosh I SCRUBBED the thing but the bore was damaged anyway! BP is a fun sport and I still shoot it sometimes in my cartridge rifles and exclusively in my MLs but pryodex and it's other partners in crime are very different than either BP or smokeless so what's the reason it's so popular? Still as you say it's a free country and I would never insist anyone not use it but because of it's serious draw-backs I will still try to warn them every chance I get. Like I said BP and smokeless are two different propellants for two different sports and the BP subs just don't fit into either!

[Dale53]

I have been a SERIOUS black powder user for many years.

However, I must disagree with most of the opinions here regarding Pyrodex. Many people live where only Pyrodex is available. Pyrodex is legal in most black powder competitions. I prefer real black (Swiss, as a matter of fact) but happened to win several pounds of Pyrodex in pistol competitions. I decided to give it a shot. I was shooting side pistol matches at BPCR Silhouette matches with my Ruger Bisley .45 Colt.

I loaded Pyrodex P with 1/16" compression under a 250 gr Lyman 452664 bullet of 20/1 lead/tin. This was an extremely powerful load (at least equal to Swiss 3F) giving over 900 fps. I won a number of pistol matches including 7x8 at Friendship, In (score matches using NRA Pistol targets).

I could get 70-75 shots without losing accuracy (lubed with Emmert's Home Mix) before the cylinder started binding. A five minute cleaning job and it was ready for another 70 shots. I used Friendship Speed Juice (a home mix black powder solvent) to clean. Three wet patches and a couple of dry ones. Then finished with Ed's Red. I shot thousands of these loads (loaded on the Dillon 550B) and my Ruger is as good as the day it rolled out of the factory.

It appears to me that people that have had problems with Pyrodex just didn't clean well or didn't know how to clean (there is a surprising number of people out there who have little clue about how to manage black powder OR substitutes).

I keep real black powder on hand and that is my powder of choice. However, I am NOT going to throw powder out that I won - I'll use it but I WILL learn how before I screw things up.

No insults to anyone intended, just believe that a lot of this damning of a product unjustified. I have NO stock in Hodgdon but believe there is a place for the substitutes. I have no problem getting black powder but many do - Pyrodex is an answer for them and I have proven to my satisfaction that it will work just fine in handguns. I have not used it in rifles. My muzzle loaders have always used black powder as well as my BPCR's.

FWIW
Dale53

[Maven]

Dale53, Thanks for putting into words what I've thought for several years!

[RMulhern]

:groner::killingpc:takinWiz::takinWiz::takinWiz:

[af2fb751]

Dale53, Thanks for putting into words what I've thought for several years!

+1
I agree; I've never had any of the problems with pyro that so many complain about. BP is my preferred choice, but a couple of times a year 45 Colt and 357 magnum get loaded with Pyrodex giving good results.

[Mohillbilly]

I use pyro in my SS ROA and does a good job .I load my cylinders over full and strike off the excess with a card , thumb in a wonderwad and put the cyl. back in the revolver .I ram the wads , and then the balls . You can't do that with BP as it won't compress enough to seat the balls below the cyl. face . If I were to load some Colt loads I would do basicly the same minus the wad . Yes I clean the revolver in the bathroom sink disasembled with an old tooth brush/brass bore brush and lots of hot water . I soak the cylinder in hot water and windex seperatley , while I do the rest .I like both BP and pyro , but pyro can be found everywhere .

[fcvan]

I have a CVA 1858 Remington copy and have only shot Pyrodex through it. It used to love 30gr with a ball seated until I tried corn meal. I started using 25gr of Pyro, topped the chambers with corn meal, and then gave the cylinder a spin. This removed an equal amount of corn meal which allowed for the 454 round ball to be seated flush. The compressed load shot better than the 30gr load, never had a chain fire, and the corn meal helped keep the bore clean. I also have some conical molds one is the Lee 200gr tapered base, the other a hollow point version of the first. I found it sitting one a gun store shelf for 12 bucks so I couldn't pass it up. all loads shot well and to point of aim. Cleanup after consisted of taking the grips off, scrubbing the whole gun in hot soapy water, and rinsing with very hot water. I sprayed the internals with WD40 and ran an oiled patch down the bore. I've had the gun 27 years and nary any rust, even on the damp northern Calif coast. As far as running real BP, I hope to be making my own this spring and see how that goes. Frank

[oldred]

You guys are totally missing the point, sure Pryodex might make sense for front stuffers for some folkes but this was about loading cartridges where the shooter could use a low pressure smokeless load if he did not have or want to shoot real BP. If a person is going to shoot a cartridge like the OP was asking about then either BP or smokeless can be used so if not using BP for the BP shooting sport it just make more sense to just use a low pressure smokeless and not the highly corrosive Pyrodex. I mean Pyrodex is not smokeless but it CERTAINLY is not BP so why even bother by pretending to be shooting BP?

[bigted]

this is the second group i belong to that prefers the real deal. the first group i joined about a hundred years ago was the biker group where the only BIKE that was allowed to live was a harley davidson. we set fire to a lot of rice grinders and drank a lot of beer watching them burn to the ground. now ill say that the rice bikes are a good motorcycle and live long productive lives but they are NOT a true bikers bike.!!.

likewise with black powder. it is what was used with all its particular glitches and the fore mentioned fire and sparks and brimstones that accompany the real deal. in my illustrious past have tryed the fake powders and never liked them for the reasson already mentioned and ill not rehash that but sufice it to say that this thread is named for the thing that adoring folks like myself like and that is "BLACKPOWDER IN A CARTRIDGE GUN.......not BLACKPOWDER and subs!!!!!!!

i agree that we would have a bunch less conflict with others if we just had a thread that covers the sub powder crowd and then there would be answers and conversations that wernt cluttered with conflict that always arrises with this kinda posting here on this thread.

there....lots o words for a person that decidede to not comment on this post....

[cajun shooter]

Dale, I like your postings but you are putting down on mine without reading it to completion.
I stated that this is a free country and everyone is free to choose even if I don't understand it. I did not put down on any one or what they choose to shoot. /This is a picture of my new TTN shotgun as it was returned to me from the gunsmith for EMF. I advised him that I shot only 100% Black Powder and wanted the gun to shuck the fired hulls as it would not do. I advised that I shoot SASS matches and could not have a gun with such rough chambers. He advised me that he did not load black powder but had a friend who shot it all the time and he would load the test shells.
I came to find out that he was calling Pyrodex , Black Powder. They test fired my gun and sent it back to me via UPS Ground which took 4 days. I almost fell over when I removed the gun from the box. I called Walt Johnson at EMF and sent him several photos of the gun. Even the bluing around the breech was gone. I don't feel as if I have to post all the pictures.
The person in charge contacted the gunsmith and he insisted he cleaned the gun and it was in brand new condition and could be sold to anyone.
EMF had me send them the gun and they sent me a new gun which worked perfect. They sent the gunsmith the so called perfect condition and told him to sell it. They also fired him.
I have shot in matches on Saturdays using 2F and not cleaned them until the following Wednesday with no problems. Try that with your subs and see what you get. If you choose to use it then more power to you my friend.
If you live on a road with a address then you can shoot the real thing, period!!


http://castboolits.gunloads.com/imagehosting/thum_59204d711c5f5bb33.jpg (http://castboolits.gunloads.com/vbimghost.php?do=displayimg&imgid=98)

[oldred]

Cajun, I respect the other opinions but my experience with Pyrodex was similar to yours except the rust never appeared near the muzzle (I realize that what happened to your gun was in no way your doing) and normal cleaning did not suffice, surely a gunsmith would know to clean after test firing with BP so in your case it was not good enough either. That Ruger was cleaned as I had cleaned it hundreds of times before when shooting BP in the 8 years or so that I owned it but after shooting Pryodex at the suggestion of a buddy I cleaned as usual and thought everything was fine, such unfortunately was not the case. This pistol was loaded with Pryodex on several occasions but the last time after cleaning it was stored for most of the Summer, when I took it out after weeks of storage and ran a cleaning rag through it prior to loading I was shocked at all the rust that came out! The bore was damaged, probably still very much usable but still to me it was ruined since the damage remained visible when looking down the bore. Would this have happened with proper cleaning? Probably not but good grief what the dickens does it take to clean that stuff out? I know some will just laugh this off and tell about how many years they have used it and cleaning was no problem but I am telling others, no warning others, of what CAN happen and yes after nearly 35 years of shooting BP I know how to clean my firearms!


Like I said earlier the point is being missed here anyway by some. I suppose with proper cleaning the subs are safe to shoot and for C&B revolvers and muzzle loaders (especially in-lines) there may be some valid reasons to use it since smokeless is not an option if real BP is not available but this original question was about cartridge loading. In this case the Pryodex is being used as a smokeless substitute not a substitute for BP, Pryodex is NOT BP and using it instead of low pressure smokeless loads is not BP shooting so why bother? Again I guess if a person wants to shoot Pryodex in a cartridge and just pretend it's BP they can certainly do so but what's the point?

[grullaguy]

You guys are totally missing the point, sure Pryodex might make sense for front stuffers for some folkes but this was about loading cartridges where the shooter could use a low pressure smokeless load if he did not have or want to shoot real BP. If a person is going to shoot a cartridge like the OP was asking about then either BP or smokeless can be used so if not using BP for the BP shooting sport it just make more sense to just use a low pressure smokeless and not the highly corrosive Pyrodex. I mean Pyrodex is not smokeless but it CERTAINLY is not BP so why even bother by pretending to be shooting BP?

I was able to track down a MSDRS sheet online, which the manufacturer of Pyrodex is required to disclose. On the sheet it said that proprietary ingredients could be supplied on request.
The interesting thing was that the main ingredients disclosed were: potassium nitrate, charcoal and sulfur.

Pyrodex may not be black powder, but it is certainly a relative which shares many of the same characteristics.

I have quantities of Goex and Pyrodex and tend to use Pyrodex the most as it's supply is guaranteed where I live. I am a stickler on cleaning and have gotten comparable performance from Pyrodex in my percussion gun.

[35remington]

I find it interesting that many of the posts about Pyrodex bad mouthed it immediately.

However you feel about it, Dale's point is correct about availability.

The storage requirements for blackpowder are such that most gunpowder distributors here won't carry it. In the majority of locations it is not available for this reason.

Ask me how I know. I have to go all the way to Doc Carlson's in northern Nebraska to get it. Pyrodex is available everywhere.

Is it ideal? No.

Does it work well enough that the complaints about the inavailability of blackpowder did not overcome the reluctance to obtain properly licensed storage of blackpowder?

Apparently.

You fellas might want to chew on that awhile. The actual usage of true black and its substitutes is apparently so non discriminating and low in volume in this day of fake muzzleloaders, Pyrodex Pellets, and Blackhorn 209 that it does not matter from a product availability standpoint.

That's discouraging from the standpoint of the few of us that want real blackpowder, but it is what it is.

The number of guys that use true black has to be incredibly low in the scheme of powder sales. The purists will always get what they want even if he has to go to extraordinary lengths to get it. The average guy just doesn't care, and goes with availability.

Like it or not, that's how it is.

My main objection to Pyrodex is the tendency to hangfire in traditional arms. A very, very small amount of preventative lubing will keep the rust at bay for a quite reasonable time.

The gunsmith responsible for the rusty double above should have been fired. Two minutes time could have prevented the rust.

[oldred]

I have quantities of Goex and Pyrodex and tend to use Pyrodex the most as it's supply is guaranteed where I live. I am a stickler on cleaning and have gotten comparable performance from Pyrodex in my [PERCUSSION] gun.

Again the point seems to be missed here, sure there are valid reasons to use it such as availability like you mention but you also mention a percussion gun where smokeless is not an option! Since Pryodex is not BP why use it as a smokeless substitute in a cartridge gun that can easily shoot low pressure smokeless loads? If a person wants to use any of the subs and pretend to be shooting BP I certainly am not telling them not to I am simply asking since it's not BP, does not shoot exactly the same as BP (slightly higher pressures), does not have the same smoke and does not even smell like BP whats the point?

[oldred]

I find it interesting that many of the posts about Pyrodex bad mouthed it immediately.

However you feel about it, Dale's point is correct about availability.

The storage requirements for blackpowder are such that most gunpowder distributors here won't carry it. In the majority of locations it is not available for this reason.

Ask me how I know. I have to go all the way to Doc Carlson's in northern Nebraska to get it. Pyrodex is available everywhere.

Is it ideal? No.

Does it work well enough that the complaints about the inavailability of blackpowder did not overcome the reluctance to obtain properly licensed storage of blackpowder?

Apparently.

You fellas might want to chew on that awhile. The actual usage of true black and its substitutes is apparently so non discriminating and low in volume in this day of fake muzzleloaders, Pyrodex Pellets, and Blackhorn 209 that it does not matter from a product availability standpoint.

That's discouraging from the standpoint of the few of us that want real blackpowder, but it is what it is.

The number of guys that use true black has to be incredibly low in the scheme of powder sales. The purists will always get what they want even if he has to go to extraordinary lengths to get it. The average guy just doesn't care, and goes with availability.

Like it or not, that's how it is.

My main objection to Pyrodex is the tendency to hangfire in traditional arms. A very, very small amount of preventative lubing will keep the rust at bay for a quite reasonable time.

The gunsmith responsible for the rusty double above should have been fired. Two minutes time could have prevented the rust.



Once more the point is not so much about purists thinking that BP should be used exclusively and I have repeatably said there are valid reasons for using it as a BP substitute but rather I question (not condemn) the reason for using it as a smokeless substitute. While I do warn about the extra cleaning precautions with the subs (exception being BH209) I am not saying it should not be used in MLs or other percussion guns. Why put up with the hassles of shooting the stuff in a cartridge gun when the differences between it and real BP are so immediately apparent upon firing? It's not BP, does not look, shoot, act or smell like BP so why not just use a low pressure smokeless load?

[grullaguy]

Again the point seems to be missed here, sure there are valid reasons to use it such as availability like you mention but you also mention a percussion gun where smokeless is not an option! Since Pryodex is not BP why use it as a smokeless substitute in a cartridge gun that can easily shoot low pressure smokeless loads? If a person wants to use any of the subs and pretend to be shooting BP I certainly am not telling them not to I am simply asking since it's not BP, does not shoot exactly the same as BP (slightly higher pressures), does not have the same smoke and does not even smell like BP whats the point?


OK point taken.

Pyrodex and BP are smelly and involve more cleaning. I can't differentiate the two my smell however. Maybe your sniffer is more attuned.
Smokeless was a great technological advancement in shooting and smells much nicer. It reminds me of chasing ducks as a youth. I have been known to smell a fired shotgun hull just to get my happy fix.:redneck:

['74 sharps]

BP is readily available with an address UPS accepts. 5# seems to be the minimum order from most suppliers. Really no excuse that it is unavailable.

[TXGunNut]

OK point taken.

Pyrodex and BP are smelly and involve more cleaning. I can't differentiate the two my smell however. Maybe your sniffer is more atttuned.


I beg to differ. BP smoke is an airborne elixir that gets the attention of everyone on the range. Cleans up with Windex w/vinegar and 5-6 patches, tops. A patch saturated with Bore Butter protects the bore and exterior and even makes the wood a bit prettier. Not gonna slam Pyrodex, that ground's already been plowed. Never had to use it anyway. Suffice it to say that it produces a stinky mess. I applaud Hodgdon's efforts in this area and their sponsorships of matches that use their product but I'm glad I can use the real thing.

[Grapeshot]

Does Pyrodex P have to be compressed in 45 Colt Cartridges? Is it safe if the powder fills the case to just below the bullet's base? By just below I mean 1/16".

Back to the point of this discussion. Pyrodex manufacturer and inventer, Dan Paulik, stated, years ago, that an airspace between the slug, ball, projectile would NOT be a concern like it is with Black Powder. Having said this, I got a minne bullet stuck three-quarters down the barrel of a Zouave Rifle and fired the charge to send the minne down range. No bulge or burst barrel. I did not make a habbit of it.

Pyrodex likes to be compressed. The more the better. What do you think the Pyro Pellets are? When compressed it burns cleaner and more consistantly. I've used it in .45 Colt, .44 Russian, and .44 Colt both with the loose powder, 3Fg/Pyrodex P, and the 30 grain Pelletized Pyrodex.

If you know how to clean your BP cap & Ball revolvers using BP the same procedures are used for your cartridge guns. YMMV.

If they fit, I'd try using Schofield length brass, that will allow you to use a lighter charge that you may be able to compress slighty. Been there and done that to.

[oldred]

Why shoot BP in a cartridge gun when smokeless works so well? Because it's FUN!! Shooting the old traditional propellent with the smoke, smell, sparks, etc like it was back in the day is pure nostalgia and a shooting sport like no other! So why shoot Pyrodex or the other subs? It's not BP and that's quite apparent when the gun fires so what's the nostalgic effect of shooting this thoroughly modern powder that is totally unlike either BP or smokeless? I am not telling anyone they should not shoot these subs, shoot what you want, but since it's so different than BP why bother? It's not BP, does not shoot like BP and does not look or smell like BP so why not just shoot a cleaner modern powder rather than a stinky messy corrosive modern powder?

Like I said I am not telling anyone not to shoot it and I fully understand using it as a BP substitute in a BP gun for various reasons but I just honestly fail to understand why anyone would want to use it as a smokeless substitute in a cartridge gun?

[cajun shooter]

I fired my first real BP in 1970 and have been a true believer ever since.
35 Remington, your posting that it's regulations and what people shoot now and that most just don't care is what scares me.
If you think that Hodgdon purchased Goex powder to save the last BP plant in America then you should do some research.
They have discontinued three powders that were used by some of the top BP shooters in the USA.
They have raised the prices by 25% since taking over.
Why would a company that is in direct competition with another in the use of it's products want that company to grow and prosper?
Hodgdon was after the huge government contracts that Goex holds and nothing else. They are not worried about the personal consumer who make up a very small part of the total business.
What most Pyrodex and in line shooters fail to think about is the other man and his sports.
Would you be so complacent if they were going to take away the guns or Pyrodex you shoot?
Ask any Flintlock shooter that enjoys reenactment of the mountain man or war of our Independence if he only wants Pyrodex to shoot. A flintlock will not fire with the stuff, as that one poster says it is made the same as BP. I have heard that since I first saw PYRODEX and it's a bunch of bull. If it was the same then it would not be classified as it is. It may contain amounts of the three that produce the real BP but it can't be anywhere near it. If that is true, where are the sparks and fire when it is fired?Why will it fail to fire in a flintlock. Why is there such a problem with the pellets?Why does it rust a gun overnight and a gun fired with the real BP may be left uncleaned for days?
The more people that throw in the towel and accept the use of a inferior product, will see the real thing go away.
I can only hope that my grandsons will be able to experience the same enjoyment that I do every time a 44-40 round is fired. I would hate it if he wanted to buy a flintlock rifle to be like a 1776 solider and only be able to yell "BANG".
This has been hashed out many times here and other forums and will never be solved because people are different and that is good but you may be living in a time period that sees the end of BP.
People want every thing they do now to be the same as getting a hamburger, fast and easy. They may go to local Wal Mart and buy the PYRODEX but it takes either making a online order or driving for two hours to have the real thing. Man THat's a lot of trouble to have fun.
Why do you think the goverment makes so many regulations for it's purchase and use. They could care less if the public had any to shoot. Why do they need anything but smokeless powder? I'm off the box, DARK SIDE FOR AS LONG AS I BREATHE!!

[oldred]

I for one agree completely and I can not be considered a "purist" in the real sense because I will shoot smokeless in even my BPCRs but not always and I still love to shoot BP on some occasions. Again I ask why do we even bother substituting BP for smokeless in these guns when smokeless can be used so successfully? Because it's FUN that's why! As we have said a dozen times already it's nostalgia, smoke, fire and sparks plus the unique smell that is timeless and goes back to a better day. Pyrodex is none of those things! EVERYTHING about it is different, from the smoke to the smell so how can it be considered BP shooting? That has been my point from the beginning, since it has none of the attributes of real BP what's the point in dealing with the mess when it still is not going to give the shooter the BP experience? A person can replace smokeless with BP for the nostalgic way it was once done or they can replace smokeless with Pyro or one of the other subs for an experience of....what?? A stinky corrosive mess that is neither like smokeless or BP? That's what I just fail to understand.

[John Boy]

Phil, you live in southern California and the probability is a local reloader does not stock black powder due to the excessive insurance costs for this powder vrs substitute powders.

OK, you may have a can or two of Pyrodex P. My suggestion if you want to shot only subs for the many reasons is buy Triple Seven. It is a much better powder than Pydrodex ... and Hodgdon has loading data on their web site for all the revolver calibers

[rbertalotto]

We can not mail order ANY reloading supplies here in the Peoples Republic of Massachusetts........Shooting Pyrodex is a substitute for BP.....Living in Massachusetts is a substitute for living in a REAL state! (If we didn't have grandkids that we are so darn attached to, we'd be otta here!)

Anyways.......I just "discovered" C&B revolvers with cartridge conversion cylinders. I want the "fire and brimstone" of BP, but with the limited availability (none!) I started shooting Pyrodex. Darn messy stuff and terrible accuracy in both revolvers. Strange because the pellets in my muzzle loader rifles and the pellets in my 1858 under a conical bullet offer amazing accuracy. But the cartridge guns simply don't like the pyrodex powder! Go figure......
I recently started using Blackhorn 209. I'm here to tell you, even if I didn't want the smoke and sparks, the Blackhorn 209 in both my Howell converted 1858s and my Kirst converted 1860s rewards accuracy that no other powder I've tried can match. And I even tried a bit of Swiss FF I was lucky enough to obtain. The BH 209 out shoots them all. Pretty amazing stuff really. And using the Cowboy 45 Special brass, and only 12g under 170g Big Lube 45SLIM bullet, the cost is managable.

We need to realize....All of this is big boys playing cowboy. None of this is real. It's 2012, not 1860......Whatever blows wind up your skirt, go for it. Have fun and be safe!

[oldred]

lots of folks are just plain badmouthing Pyrodex and/or 2) lots of folks simply do not know how to care for their "BP" guns and 3) lots of folks are suffering from "sour grapes" cause their object of worship, absurdly called "Holy Black", has some very effective competition AND suffers from some severe safety limitations in modern society.Dalyoke


No need to get all defensive there no one is being "purist" and telling you or anyone else not to shoot these subs, just in this instance I was simply wondering why bother with a sub for smokeless?

And you are completely missing the point , it has nothing to do with "purist" and in fact even has nothing to do with subbing BP. It was repeatedly noted that C&B revolvers, muzzleloaders, etc that are limited to BP or a sub may have valid reasons for using the sub but why use it for a smokeless sub? BP or a sub can be used out of necessity in a BP only firearm or it can be used for the "BP experience" in a cartridge firearm but since the subs give a completely different effect than either smokeless or real BP why bother with a sub? Most of the time the whole point of using BP in cartridge guns in the first place is for the nostalgia and the smoke and pomp of of days gone by, what other reason would there be to shoot it since from a practical standpoint smokeless would be better. The point is not BP vs one of the subs but rather why use Pyrodex, T7, etc for a smokeless sub when it is neither like smokeless or BP?

[oldred]

2) To replicate the really excellent BP cartridge loads of late 1800s. For this Swiss and 777 have been excellent, with Pyrodex a close second. In practical shooting, matches and hunting, these loads have been as reliable and accurate as any "smokeless" loads. Only difference is the smoke and much greater muzzle blast, so long as target or critter is within range of loads used.Dalyoke



Smokeless sub? Sorry, oldred, your post simply makes no sense at all, either in context of this thread or otherwise. We must be from different planets or different civilizations.

And right there is where you are terribly wrong, you most certainly are NOT replicating shooting BP or the old cartridge loads, again you missing the point! Sure you can do it if you like and I'm not telling you not to but again I ask what's the point in doing so? The smoke, smell and performance is very different than BP and quite obvious immediately upon firing so why not just use a smokeless? You are accusing some of us as being unrealistic purists when I was simply asking why replace both smokeless and BP both with something that is so unlike either. You want to pretend you are shooting BP then fine I am not telling you or anyone else not to but the only reason to use BP in these cartridges is for the nostalgic effect and the subs do not do that so why not just use smokeless loaded to BP pressures and avoid the hassle of the subs? That's all I was asking. The subs in a cartridge gun, in most instances is just a third kind of shooting period! It's neither like smokeless or BP but if you or anyone else enjoys shooting it that's fine and it's entirely up to you and for the umpteenth time no one is telling you not to! In your haste to defend your choice you are still missing the point.

[oldred]

Well if after "decades of experience" you can't see the differences between real BP and the subs then I guess in your case it really makes no difference, most of us can see the difference easily.

[Kenny Wasserburger]

I used Pyrodex P in several cap and ball pistols many years ago, around the age of 18 never ruined them. But did clean them very well. that was around 1980. Moving ahead to mid 1990's, I have a very close friend that had a nice Rem Hepburn rebarreled with a Metford rifling barrel by Ron Snover, they shot Pyrodex in it about 50 rounds the RS stuff. He cleaned as he did when using Goex FFg. Put in the safe. The next spring he pulled it out and the barrel was badly pitted from end of the chamber to the end of the barrel. He lives in NE Wyoming had cleaned the rifle well and as I recall put bore butter in the barrel. It was a long winter so he never checked the barrel. As I understand it now Bore butter is just Chapstick and not much for protection. I quit using it after about the second year of BP Shooting in my Cartridge rifles 95 or 96 and never looked back at it. And perhaps this was the reason of the ruined barrel of my friends. The extra salts in Pyrodex may of been delt with if he had used a good quality of gun oil.

I understand that Pyrodex has much more perchlorates in it (salts) then Standard BP. I know it will Ruin Cases in a short time, where BP at least in my 17 years of shooting it, in cartridge guns, does not. One Pyrodex shooter informs me that cleans his rifles for 3 days after shooting to make sure that no issues of Rust, and uses a good oil.

My main issue with BP is the fixed carbon left behind after shooting and cleaning with good old water which does not touch fixed carbon, it will get all the rest and does well. I use a special solvent just for the carbon and what one thinks is a clean barrel after a wet patch of this stuff is an eye opener.

My focus is mainly Long Range shooting with BP Cartridge rifles, and my favorite powder has been FG Goex Express for quite some time.

When the last of the 5 or so Cases I originally had on hand of Fg Goex Express are gone (less then 2 cases left) I will most likely use Swiss Fg for my loading. I Keep hearing good things but several really good shooters I know have tried KIK and have had less then steller results, I do also know a few folks that are having good luck with it.

My take on it is this when it comes to BP Cartridge guns: If you can not attain Real black powder or wish to not use it. Then I would Use Smokeless and why mess with the fuss and mess of BP subs such as Pyrodex. When I did use it for several years in my late teens, In my cap an ball pistols and one TC Renagade. I know from my personal usage that it took more to clean my TC when shooting Pyrodex and that the powder picked up lots of moisture after opening a can of it. Now days my cap and ball and open top Colt get real BP FFFg Swiss or Goex. I most certainly can tell a difference in smell and clean up.

Accuracy claims on this forum are amusing to say the least what folks claim as accurate in their guns 1.5 inches at 50 yards are much different then my yardstick of measurement when it comes to accuracy. One fellla figured that if it shot 1.5 inches at 75 yards it was a 450 yard elk load. So when it comes to BP Subs are as accurate as your bp loads I gota wonder how good your BP Loads really are.

Few years back at Raton a owner of a new Shiloh Sharps jumped the owners at the match about the poor accuracy he was getting at the Silhouette match. MLV was asked to test fire the rifle with some of his own 45-70 ammo. and preceeded too (after zeroing for his load) mow over 10 pigs in a row with said inaccurate Rifle. Another fella shooting a Shiloh 45-70 was also asked to use his own loads to test the 45-70. As MLV he mowed over all the pigs. The two testers were then asked by the Shiloh Folks to try their hand at the ram line and while neither MLV or the other fella got all ten rams they showed the plan truth that the new owner did not know how to load very good ammo and had some very poor quality bullets, when compared to MLV and the other guy from Wyoming.

My friend David is a good honest decent person that tells it like it is, this other fella, dont know you from a hoot or a hollar but you sure are a puffed up little fella. I have seen your posts in several threads, got a heck of an opinion for sure. Would love to see you show up some place and educate myself and back up these claims.

You wont have to wonder who I am, I go by my real name.

KW
The Lunger