358429, H-110 and cases

[inthebeech]

As most 357 (and Lyman 358429 casters) already know, this bullet is too long for many cylinders, my Old Model Blackhawk included. I would like to have a medium-heavy load unsing H-110 and this bullet but given that I need to either use Special cases or crimp over the front band (effectively getting you back to close to 38 Special case capacity when that same bullet is crimped in the crimp groove of a Special case), there is no published loading data.
Does anyone have any experience with H-110 and this bullet under similar circumstances - either crimping over the shoulder or using Special cases? My sense is that you should NOT just follow 357 mag loading data if you crimp over the shoulder since case capacity is a significant variable impacting pressure.
Thanks,
Ed

[fecmech]

The data in the Lyman cast bullet handbook for H110 is for 358429 crimped over the front drive band. H110 and 296 are not really designed for "medium" loads. They are made for full power 1200-1300 fps full snort mag loads and they perform very well there. If you don't want to go there I would suggest 2400 for downloading.

[44MAG#1]

Ol brainstorming here. the Lyman 49th book lists 357 with 358429 at 1.553 " oal
the 38 special lists as 1.537 "oal with the same bullet. This is .016 inh difference. why not start with 357 mag H110 data from Lyman 49th manual?
I've done it with no problems. In a K frame even.
Study the manuals well. It is rewarding.
You could start at starting load.

[inthebeech]

Thanks guys.
It is interesting that Lyman's most accurate load for this bullet is with H-110 and even more interesting the charge that aparently gave this accuracy is much lower mathmatically than the "maximum reduction" of three percent from heaviest charge that Hodgedon recommends.
So I was wrong. I didn't catch where Lyman sated this bullet which is exactly what I wanted; reliable, safe data under the exact same conditions.

[Alan]

Yep, the current data is .2 (that is point two) grains less than the older Lyman book. I didn't twig to the fact that it was short seated, and put several thousand through my NMBH with the bullet seated out to crimp in the groove. This was with old WW296, which they stated should never be used with reduced loads. Oh My God was it scary accurate!

Since the data for old H110 and WW296 didn't match, and now they do, I would assume that old WW296 is just slightly different, so would definitely stick to the new data.

[inthebeech]

I'm headed out to the club to collect velocity data on these two loads;
358429 crimped over shoulder in magnum cases and same in specal cases crimped in crimp groove. The COL difference is .013 inches so available case volume is different by less than two percent and theoretically both loads should be quite safe.
I am using Lyman's "potentially most accurate" load of 12.2 gr H-110.

[fecmech]

My best results with that bullet have been right at the 15 gr mark. About 1200fps+ in the pistols and 1600fps+ in the rifles. Good luck in your quest.

[blackbike]

inthebeech, good question. I had the same thoughts.
44mag#1, good answer, beter observation. I missed that, when loading 358429
Thanks, now I know

[Larry Gibson]

My previous experience with H110 in the 357 magnum with 358429 resulted in 2 squib loads (with 15.5 gr H110 and CCI magnum SP primers). One pushed the bullet far enough into the barrel that the cylinder could be rotated and another shot fired. Another shot was almost fired but I stopped the shooter just in time. I have had the very same thing occur twice also with 23 gr H110 under the 429421 in my 44 magnum. All 4 instances occured with the temperature below 40 degrees BTW.

Strangely I have not had the same occurence with GC'd cast bullets or jacketed bullets of close to the same weight. I do not use H110 in magnum loads with PB'd cast bullets of nominal weight for the cartridge any more in the 357, 41 or 44 magnums. I know many have very good success with heavier bullets but I don't use any heavy for cartridge PB'd cast bullets. I use 2400 for magnum loads, Unique for medium loads and Bullseye for light loads with nominal weight bullets in those cartridges.

Just FYI is all.

Larry Gibson

[sixshot]

Larry, what primers were you using. Interesting observation with the pb cast slugs, whats your theory on pb versus the GC styles & the squib loads. I do know that many of the GC styles usually seat a little deeper than a pb.

Dick

[Larry Gibson]

CCI 550s in the .357s and CCI 350s in the .41s and .44s.

The PB'd bullets for magnum level loads are cast harder than the GC'd bullets. I do not think they obturated any and offered little or no resistence until they entered the forcing cone/barrel. The H110 had not burned sufficiently to build enough psi to keep burning once what pressure there was was vented at the barrel/cylinder gap. With the softer GC'd bullet if obturation occurs and the GC seals better in the throats then the H110 burns efficiently. In my pressure tests in .357 Magnum with the same H110 load under a 358156 and 358477 of the same alloy mentioned the 358477 gives a slower pressure rise to the trace and the data of the rise gives the indication the rsistence is less and it takes a bit longer for the powder to burn efficiently.

With heavier PB'd bullets or PB'd bullets that are over size for the throats there doesn't appear to be a problem as there is enough resitance before the pressure is vented at the barrel/cylinder gap for the H110 to also burn efficiently. That's my thoughts anyways, probably difficult to get a definitive answer even with the test equipment I have.

Besides, 2400 is an excellent powder for use with nominal weight PB'd cast bullets for magnum level loads. Bue Dot is also excellent and there is not the potential for ignition problems with either of those powders.

I have to note that H110 is still my powder of choice for magnum level loads (1350 - 1450 fps from 6 - 7 1/2" barrels) in all 3 cartridges with GC'd cast or jacketed bullets of nominal weight for the cartridge.

Larry Gibson

[sixshot]

Thanks Larry, I use mostly 2400 in my heavy 38/357 loads but I do use some H110 & you're probably right about the softer GC loads bumping up to seal as compared to the harder pb slugs. Never had a squibbie but I've been around a couple of guys that did & it can be scary if that slug clears the forcing cone. Seen it once at Area I championships in Missoula, Montana.

Dick

[BLTsandwedge]

My previous experience with H110 in the 357 magnum with 358429 resulted in 2 squib loads (with 15.5 gr H110 and CCI magnum SP primers). One pushed the bullet far enough into the barrel that the cylinder could be rotated and another shot fired. Another shot was almost fired but I stopped the shooter just in time. I have had the very same thing occur twice also with 23 gr H110 under the 429421 in my 44 magnum. All 4 instances occured with the temperature below 40 degrees BTW.

Strangely I have not had the same occurence with GC'd cast bullets or jacketed bullets of close to the same weight. I do not use H110 in magnum loads with PB'd cast bullets of nominal weight for the cartridge any more in the 357, 41 or 44 magnums. I know many have very good success with heavier bullets but I don't use any heavy for cartridge PB'd cast bullets. I use 2400 for magnum loads, Unique for medium loads and Bullseye for light loads with nominal weight bullets in those cartridges.

Just FYI is all.

Larry Gibson

Identical experiences. It does seem to me that H110/296 are temperature sensitive- I'd be delighted to learn otherwise. I switched to 2400 and found no huge variance in velocity with the 358429 (maybe 100fps) but what I lost in velocity I made up with in accuracy with a S&W 4" 19. I still use H110/296 in .44 mag under the 429421.

[fecmech]

This is interesting. I have burned somewhere between 1 and 2 8lb. jugs of 296 behind the 358429 at the 15 gr level with never a problem or "off" sounding shot. I very rarely shoot below 40 degrees and most of the time I was using standard SP primers instead of magnums. So maybe there is something to temp sensitivity. Lately I've switched to the use of CCI SR primers for my loads due to a slight accuracy increase and single digit sd's. With the .44 mag I shot 25/296/429421/Fed LP primer for years in Silhouette with no problems, again next to no below 40 deg. shooting.

[Larry Gibson]

My shooting buddy back then and I (I had the .44, he had the .357) had shot up quite a bit of H110 (was $1.65 a pound back then). Several lbs each as I recall. Had nothing but positive results until the misfired squib loads............fortunately we caught it and did not blow up either revolver.

Larry Gibson