Wolf Primer failure to fire

[milkman]

After reading nothing but good reviews of Wolf primers I bought 5K and I am not having good luck with them. About 1 out of 5 FTF. They will go off on the second strike so from experience with American primers it would seem that they are not fully seated. I am using 2 thumbs on the Lee hand primer, then both hands on the ram prime in the press, then bumping the press handle a couple of hard licks and still getting failures. This is on different rifles and different calibers and different brass.
Is this a failure mode for the Russian primers? Any ideas?
Milkman

[161]

I've only used the SPM and they work fine in most of my guns but they are hard. What caliber are you shooting? Shouldn't have to pound on the press to seat them.

[kbstenberg]

Milkman just a thought. Could you put a thin extension on the primer seating stud? Maybe .010 to seat the primer deaper. Maybe use double sided tape an tinfoil. I have plenty of the tape. Send me a PM if you would like to try some.
Kevin

[koehlerrk]

Wolf primers, in my experience, are hard. As long as what you're using hits them hard enough, you're all set. Or, like me, you grunt, groan, and go back to CCI, Remington, Federal, etc...

[BoolitSchuuter]

Don't know what you are shooting, have you checked firing pin protrusion? should be around .055 to.060". softer/ more sensitive primers could mask short protrusion.


Just my opinion and worth every pennie you paid for it. :bigsmyl2:

[Ben]

Milkman

If I understand you correctly, you're having to put both hands on the press handle to get the primers seated " level " in the primer pockets ?

It should not take that kind of pounding to get a primer into the primer pocket, this could be part of your problem, or all of your problem ?

Have you tried swaging the pockets ( opening up the primer pockets larger ) to allow the primer easier entry with less pressure needed to seat the primer.

If I run into any cases that behave that way, I either ream or ( even better ) swage the pockets larger. Problem disappears.

You may want to take a mic and measure the depth and dia. of your wolf primers and compare those dimensions to some Win. , CCI, and Fed. numbers. Yours could be out of spec. ?

Ben

[Grandpas50AE]

Like Ben said, it shouldn't take that much to seat a primer. I had a batch of CCI's do that back in the early '80's, and later found out it was a batch that got out that was slightly larger than normal. I ended up switching to Winchester, but the current CCI's don't have any problems either. Any manufacturer can have a batch get out that is out of spec. I did manage to use up most of those old CCI's, but what a pain. Have you contacted the maker (or importer) to see if they will replace them?

[StratsMan]

I had the same experience with Rooskie primers recently, traced my problem to a different cause; my case was not 100% deep into the chamber, so it was not just the primer that was moving when the striker dropped, it was the entire cartridge that was moving in my Glock. I thought I had a bad batch of primers, but by adjusting the bullet seat and the crimp the round was able to fully seat and my ignition problem went away...

[44man]

I also would like to know the gun. It sounds like a weak spring.
It does no good at all to seat primers too hard and can ruin the compound pellet, they should just bottom out.
Primers are sensitized once the anvil is flush, any more can crack the compound by deforming the cup. A press handle exerts a terrific amount of force.
StratsMan also has a solution.

[243winxb]

then bumping the press handle a couple of hard licks Primers get seated from flush to .004" below. As 44man said you can ruin the compound pellet by banging on it. Tests have shown that continued rechambering a round, over & over again, in an auto like 40 S&W is a problem. The priming compound breaks down causing misfires.

[parrott1969]

I have used many,many, many thousands of wolf primers and have not had an issue. Mic the OD of the primer so that it can be compared to others. Wolf gives a 100% satisfaction guarantee.

[Longwood]

I had a lot of primer failures when I first started using one of the progressive presses.
As soon as I quit trying to reload my brass without de-priming and cleaning the pockets, the problem went away.
I only began using Woolf primers a short time ago and have not had a problem with one yet. I am working on my fifth box. The guy that told me about them say's he has really good luck with them also and he shoots more than I do.

[462]

I've been shooting Wolf rifle and hangun primers, for a couple years now, without one failure. I've seated them with a Lee Auto-Prime and a Lyman ram prime. Even the Blackhawk's reduced power springs have not caused a misfire.

Milkman, you give scant detail, so I will ask:
1. Is the brass military surplus with crimped-in primers? If so, the primer pockets will have to be reamed.
2. Are you checking to be sure the primer is seated below the primer pocket's rim? Wolf primers are a bit taller than American primers and you must confirm they are fully seated -- rather than assuming, as you stated.

[Wayne Smith]

I have had CCI primers that were a tad large and hard to seat and I have had S&B brass that had very small primer pockets. I dumped that brass. Either of these could be part of the problem. We would like to hear from you about what you have discovered about your situation.

[lbaize3]

If you have a FTF with more than one gun, then I'd say you have a primer problem. Only using one gun and experiencing a FTF gives too many variables to consider. I think you should try to fire the loads in another weapon or two to help you make a decision on the causal factors.

[felix]

Do they have to be weapons? Are not our toys good enough? ... felix

[Larry Gibson]

FTF in what?

As mentioned there are numerous designs that don't have the firing pin oomph to fire hard cup primers reliably. Or, as mentioned, the firing pin spring is weak.

Larry Gibson

[Moondawg]

I have shot almost 10K Wolf Primers in SP and SR. The only failure to fires I have had were in a S&W revolver where the hammer spring strain screw had gotten backed off a little. Yes, they are hard, but this is a good thing when loading for a semi-auto that can slam fire. In pistols or revolvers I would check for weak hammer or striker spring and fireing pin protrusion. Also headspace issues due to short cartridge. Same thing for rifles and fireing pin protrusion. A properly set up firearm should fire even hard primers. Finally, too much pressure when seating a primer can cause its own problems with misfires.

[Mal Paso]

I don't use Wolf LP in my Colt Anaconda. The firing pin Strike is too light and they are only 88% reliable. 99% in my Redhawk, and 100% in my S&W 629. They are less than .0005 larger than Federal but go in much harder. I believe the cap metal is harder. I've used about 20,000 LP KVB-45s and never came across a one defective primer but not all guns will fire them reliably.

To the guys that never had a problem. Wait till your firing pin gets weak.[smilie=l:

[milkman]

Sorry to take so long to get back--- I had to go visit my little silver haired mom at the nursing home.
I am using non-military brass. mixed Rem, Win, and Federal. All have been loaded multiple times and work fine with CCI primers. The Rifles are an old Savage 340 in 30-30 which could very well have a weak firing pin spring or poor pin protrusion. It is new to me and I haven't checked it closely. The other rifle is a Savage Mod 16 in 35 Whelen. I use Remington brass exclusively in it.

I am loading cast in both rifles and the boolits are seated to touch the rifling so the case should not be moving forward very much with firing pin strike. The primer pockets are cleaned before each loading. The primers do need extra force to be loaded, but with the hand primer I think I can feel them bottom out. The Wolf primers don't have the anvil extensions that US primers do, so it is a difficult to know if they are just stopping or they have bottomed out. On the US primer I can feel the anvil "feet" touch and then feel them compress, I don't get that kind of feedback on the commie primers.

I am going to try a spacer on top of the primer ram and see if that helps. I started to do that earlier and was afraid that I might start popping them while seating. Can't hurt much but my nerves if they do go off in the case.

Thanks for all the replies
Milkman

[Grapeshot]

I don't use Wolf LP in my Colt Anaconda. The firing pin Strike is too light and they are only 88% reliable. 99% in my Redhawk, and 100% in my S&W 629. They are less than .0005 larger than Federal but go in much harder. I believe the cap metal is harder. I've used about 20,000 LP KVB-45s and never came across a one defective primer but not all guns will fire them reliably.

To the guys that never had a problem. Wait till your firing pin gets weak.[smilie=l:

Had the same problem with my Anaconda. Swapped out the mainspring and still had light hits. Finally had to file off metal from the hammer nose until firing pin protruded as far out as my Colt M1909 New Service. Now I don't have that problem of FTF as often. Just during Double Action shooting will I sometimes get a FTF.

[Longwood]

FTF in what?

Or, as mentioned, the firing pin spring is weak.

Larry Gibson

There is where I would probably have problems if I were still shooting pistols.
I did trigger jobs on every pistol I owned including the BIG dollar target pistols. Hammer spring work was often included.
The only thing I have done a trigger job on lately is my Savage HMR 17 with the goofy target trigger which was way too heavy.

[xfoxofshogo]

i have found some say you need beter firing spring win useing wolf primers

i have a gun with a 20lb spring stock will work with cci but not shoot wolf primers but i swap it out to the 24lb wolf spring kit and it shoots fine

[shooterg]

I've had good service from the Wolf primers. I believe they are harder and larger diameter than most. I've used cases (for practice !) that had very loose primer pockets, used the Wolf primers, and they were tight.

[Mal Paso]

Had the same problem with my Anaconda. Swapped out the mainspring and still had light hits. Finally had to file off metal from the hammer nose until firing pin protruded as far out as my Colt M1909 New Service. Now I don't have that problem of FTF as often. Just during Double Action shooting will I sometimes get a FTF.

I had short firing pin protrusion but I bought a second safety connector and built it up with Silver Solder instead. Colt won't sell me a mainspring unless I send the gun in and that's not gunna happen. Mine wasn't finished when it left the factory the first time. Bought a couple springs from Jack First but they were just like factory after they broke in. Been meaning to call him back to see about having heavier springs made. Meanwhile Graff's has Federal LPs for a good price, they are a PLEASURE to seat and Made in the USA.

[Ole]

I have loaded lots of Wolf SPM(556) primers and had no problems in my Mini 14, but an occasional slow/hangfire when using them in my .357 Max T/C barrel.

[HangFireW8]

Possibilities include bad primers, crushed primer pellets, insufficiently seated primers (sounds like that's not the case here), insufficient firing pin energy, insufficient firing pin protrusion, and bad headspace.

Bad headspace can take two forms, brass sized too small (or too thin a rim as in the case of your 30-30), or loose chamber/breech fit.

When you mention 35 Whelen, that's a cartridge case that is very easy to set the shoulder back too far, allowing the cartridge the shuttle forward under firing pin impetus.

However from your description, I'm leaning towards crushed primer pellets or bad primers.

HF

[tomme boy]

Wolf, Tula, or any Russian primers are all a little big. They also have a slightly thicker cup. They also are made with a harder brass. The mag primers are not mag as in what we may think. They way they think mag is an even thicker cup to handle higher PSI.

This has been common knowledge on certain forums. Now that they are starting to become more common, people need to do a little research of them.

So a weak spring and a firing pin protution that is not long enogh is going to cause problems.

[johnho]

I had this problem too when I first started using them. I got upset when some told me it was me and to push harder on the handle of my 550B. Well I did that and all the problems went away. I still won't use them in my revolvers, no way to they work. Semiauto fine.

[sirgknight]

Like many others I have used a lot of wolf primers over the past three years; (between 75,000-100,000 for pistol and rifle). I seat the primers either with my Lee hand primer or with the Lee Classic Turret Press. They are a much harder primer than most to ignite but they seat just as easily as any other primer I've used. The only problem I ever encountered is when I tried loading some special .38 rounds using the small rifle primers. The pistol was practically new but ignited only about half of the primers. I learned a valuable lesson that day after having to pull about 100 bullets.....these primers do not interchange like other primers.

[John Boy]

About 1 out of 5 FTF. They will go off on the second strike so from experience with American primers it would seem that they are not fully seated.Milkman, 4 out of 5 is better than zero for 5. :)
Anyway, the firing pin crushing the primer anvil into the lead styphnate and barium nitrate is what ignites them.
* You are getting 4 out of 5
* You say you have no high primers
I would put some cleaner into the firing pin hole - blow out any ? with an air gun and next a couple of light oil drops into the firing pin hole. Then load up some brass with primers only and see if they all ignite

[milkman]

After reading all the great replies, I think the next step will be to prime up some brass for a couple or three different rifles, seat the primers with normal pressure and see if they go off. If not, and I can find an address, the primers will go back to Wolf.
milkman

[jerryv]

try reaming the primer pockets.

[Bullet Caster]

Wayne Smith,
Please do not scrap any S&B brass. I only had 3 S&B brass for my 9mm and after I reamed the primer pocket the small pistol primers went in smooth as silk. I also had one S&W 9mm brass that I couldn't get a primer into. After I reamed the primer pocket in that one I was able to prime it. Because of that I now check all my primer pockets. I use a 13/64 drill bit to ream all my military brass for .30-06 and that has worked great for me. Ya just have to be careful when using the drill bit so you don't go in too deeply. I have heard a lot about the S&B brass being hard to seat primers. BC

[giz189]

try reaming the primer pockets.

+1 on reaming primer pockets with a primer pocket uniformer.

[milkman]

You guys nailed it again.

Weak firing pin spring or protrusion

I got out a Rem 700 and a Marlin 336 that I have not used the Wolf primers in before and primed 28 empty brass. No failures to fire. So it is would appear not to be BAD primers, just primers VERY DIFFICULT to ignite.

Thanks again for all the ideas and replies.

Milkman

[milprileb]

Glad you fixed the problem regardless of the reason.

For the record, I have zero use of Wolf but I have now over 24,000 of the Tula primers fired in the last year : large and small pistol, large rifle primers.

I have had no FTF or issues with these primers and they replicate Winchester primers in performance on my pet loads.

They flow in my progressive press priming system and seat in that Dillon press with no issues.

I got no issue with Tula primers: they perform and are economical to boot.

[462]

Glad you fixed the problem regardless of the reason.

For the record, I have zero use of Wolf but I have now over 24,000 of the Tula primers fired in the last year : large and small pistol, large rifle primers.

I have had no FTF or issues with these primers and they replicate Winchester primers in performance on my pet loads.

They flow in my progressive press priming system and seat in that Dillon press with no issues.

I got no issue with Tula primers: they perform and are economical to boot.

Tula primers same-same Wolf primers. Same-same factory, different brand names.

[MikeS]

I have no direct experience with them, but I've seen many say that TulaUSA has excellent customer service. If you have a batch of primers that aren't working for you, contact them (I'm sorry, I don't have the contact info), and see if they will replace them. Just a thought, before condemning them without giving them a chance to make them good is just kind of silly.

I just last month bought a bunch of Tula primers, but have yet to get a chance to take any ammo loaded with them to the range. As a quick test, I primed a 45AR case with one of the Tula LP primers, and fired it in a S&W revolver I just bought that seems to have a fairly light hammer fall (at least compared to my other pistols), but the primer went Bang, just like it should.

[Lloyd Smale]

first and last batch of wolf primers i bought came with some primers actually missing the anvils. I wont waste my money on them anymore. Even if future batches didnt have that defect id sure be worried about quality control and the possibility that one could cause a squib load that could cause a burst barrel. We chroned a bunch of them and there a fairly weak primer. The mag wolfs gave about the same velocitys as a mild standard primer. The standard wolfs didnt give good velocity spreads with even fast burning powders. Now keep in mind that was only one batch but unless theres another big primer shortage and there all i can get ill pass!

[milprileb]

How can anyone condemn the primers and go off the deep end when the OP
flatly stated he found the issue was the weapon and not the primers ?

Doesn't anyone read before they make obtuse comments ?

Lots of AARP moments !!!!!!

[milkman]

I disassembled the bolt and cleaned everything. ( it felt like it was full of sand ) Still no joy. I just ordered a new firing pin and spring from Numrich. I can't blame the primers as being bad, but CCI primers work just fine. I will think twice about buying more Wolf unless there is a tremendous price or availability difference.
Milkman

[mpmarty]

Back in the time between Obamas election and inauguration I bought 30,000 Wolf large pistol primers. I've gone through about half of them in 45/70, 308, 10mm and 45acp and had no problems whatsoever. At $85.00 for a box of five thousand I will keep on keepin on.

[John Boy]

WOLF is the only ammunition company that provides a 100% Performance Guarantee. If you are not fully satisfied, WOLF will refund your money on the unused portion of the ammunition, including and freight charges.

Click Here For Details ... http://www.wolfammo.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=93

[ku4hx]

Never had a problem with Wolf, but the other "W" primers (Winchester) were problematic in my Glock Gen2 model 20. My ultimate conclusion was a hard cup plus striker type ignition was at fault.

I reserved the Winchesters for other guns and my problem disappeared.

[ku4hx]

Lots of AARP moments !!!!!!

I much prefer American Seniors Association and I feel a lot more seniors need to.
http://www.americanseniors.org/

But I do have an ASA moment every now and then. I know I have them because my wife tells me I do.

[milprileb]

You guys nailed it again.

Weak firing pin spring or protrusion

I got out a Rem 700 and a Marlin 336 that I have not used the Wolf primers in before and primed 28 empty brass. No failures to fire. So it is would appear not to be BAD primers, just primers VERY DIFFICULT to ignite.

Then you post this: I disassembled the bolt and cleaned everything. ( it felt like it was full of sand ) Still no joy. I just ordered a new firing pin and spring from Numrich. I can't blame the primers as being bad, but CCI primers work just fine. I will think twice about buying more Wolf unless there is a tremendous price or availability difference.
Milkman



HUH? Milkman ??? Is it the weapon or primers? Pick one and stay with it !

Really, if you post something ,stay focused and be consistent. I think (and take this personally if you must)... there is operator error included in your drama.

I wish you well whatever the problem is.

[HangFireW8]

I disassembled the bolt and cleaned everything. ( it felt like it was full of sand ) Still no joy. I just ordered a new firing pin and spring from Numrich.

Be sure to specify "new" parts when ordering from Numrich. There's nothing like having a worn-out part, ordering another from Numrich, and getting something even worse.

HF

[HangFireW8]

HUH? Milkman ??? Is it the weapon or primers? Pick one and stay with it !


Take it easy, milprileb, and watch the acronyms (read the forum rules carefully). Debugging a problem like this is a process, not a command decision. Milkman has narrowed it down to the firing system, now he's taking the next step and swapping out some parts (once they arrive), it all takes time.

-HF

[MikeS]

What's wrong with using acronyms? We use them all the time.

[Lloyd Smale]

good luck with that. I tried emailing them 3 times about my primers missing anvils and never heard a word back from them. It amazes me guys will jump down the throat of anyone badmouthing wolf ammo or primers. Dont ever forget guys that this company is making money selling ammo to enemys of this country and some of it is used to kill americans. Funny thing is that if an american company produces junk theres people standing in line to bash it. I may be a hipocrit as ive boughten it too but i dont buy anything while wearing rose colared glasses. Ill be the first to call junk junk. Like i said i cant vouch for your lot of wolf primers but i actually tested mine over the chronograph and they were weak and inconsistant. If you want the cheapest possible primer and your major consern with your handloads is that they go bang go for it. Just dont harbor any misconceptions about these being match grade primers.
WOLF is the only ammunition company that provides a 100% Performance Guarantee. If you are not fully satisfied, WOLF will refund your money on the unused portion of the ammunition, including and freight charges.

Click Here For Details ... http://www.wolfammo.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=93

[44man]

Be careful with Marlin lever guns. Never dry fire them unless you have the one with the push through safety and it is on safe or you could break the firing pin.
I had the hammer get away from me on a brand new Marlin and it broke the pin with just the one strike, pain having to make a new one.
It needs a primer and I would not double strike a fired primer either.

[HangFireW8]

What's wrong with using acronyms? We use them all the time.

I recently saw a moderator warning about acronyms for words that we can't spell out- this is a family site.

Other acronyms are fine (though I do spell them out ONCE when replying to a real newbie).

HF

[Longwood]

I recently saw a moderator warning about acronyms for words that we can't spell out- this is a family site.

Other acronyms are fine (though I do spell them out ONCE when replying to a real newbie).

HF

ithinkiwillbeevenlazierfromnowontomakereadingmypos tsevenmoredifficult,

[44man]

Every time I type "boolit" it is underlined for wrong spelling! :Fire::Fire::mrgreen:
I don't know what an acronym is anyway, have to look it up. Too long out of school! [smilie=1:

[Longwood]

Every time I type "boolit" it is underlined for wrong spelling! :Fire::Fire::mrgreen:
I don't know what an acronym is anyway, have to look it up. Too long out of school! [smilie=1:

At my house,,, it is a jumble of meaningless letters that some people use to confuse and irritate people.

I know what Beagler and a few of the other made up words mean but using them sure does confuse the new people.-

Edit:
Who is it that asks the most questions on this site?
Why would people wish to confuse them.

Just my two worthless aluminum pennies.

[Doble Troble]

I've shot lots of them in various 1911s. Just happened to shoot some in a striker-fired Ruger SR-9 that was 100% with Winchester Small Pistol primers, and the first magazine had several light strikes. As the day warmed up the problems disappeared.

I'm thinking Wolf are hard primers - not a problem unless you want to shoot them in a striker pistol that has had a trigger job.

[MikeS]

Dont ever forget guys that this company is making money selling ammo to enemys of this country and some of it is used to kill americans.

That IS a good thing to remember. But then you need to also remember that the exact same thing can be said of GE, a company everyone thinks is American as apple pie, but they go to great lengths to go around export restrictions, etc. so they can sell to ANYONE, even enemies of this country!

And Tula primers (same company as Wolf) while being made in Russia, are imported by an American company, and in my case being sold by an American veteran, so most of the profits made in their sale is in fact going to Americans, even if the commies (or ex-commies as we're supposed to believe now) are the original makers of the primers.

I like to buy American when I can, but not if it means I have to spend double or more than I would if I bought other stuff. Just another reason I think the Unions have killed manufacturing in this country.

[Lloyd Smale]

geez! now even commy primers are being blamed on the unions!!

[HangFireW8]

Every time I type "boolit" it is underlined for wrong spelling!

So, right-click on it and add it to the dictionary.

HF

[mpmarty]

Guess I'm double guilty. Using "commie" primers in my two Saiga rifles.

[wiljen]

I have moved the union discussion to the pit.

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?t=141797

If you all want to discuss this - take it to the pit but don't hijack other threads.



Now, anybody else have anything to say about primers?

[zxcvbob]

[reposting cuz this got swept away]

I bought a few thousand each Wolf SP and SR primers a long time ago. They were brass-colored and were the best primers I've ever used. Then Wolf switched the SP's to nickel plated and people started having problems with misfires, and Wolf acknowledged there was a problem with one batch. I was still using the old brass ones.

I bought 5000 Tula SP primers after that, and they are nickel, and I've had trouble with misfires -- mostly with my S&W revolver shooting double-action, but also a few with my Ruger double-action. Until I figure it out for sure, I'm going to blame most of the problem on the S&W (I've bought some new springs for it and gonna give it a good cleaning) and part of the problem on me sometimes not seating the primers deep enough. But the nickel primers are definitely harder to seat and harder to ignite than the old brass ones. I wish they hadn't messed with a good thing.

I've had no problems at all with Wolf or Tula LP primers, nor Wolf (copper colored) SR primers.

[Doby45]

Have shot thousands in both pistol and rifle, they are G2G..

[1Shirt]

Had a SR Remington primer fail at the range yesterday. Pulled blt, had powder, primer was a dud. Had fireing pin hit it twice. Have had primers of all brands fail once in awhile over, (well over that is), 50 years of shooting. And that includes a couple of Mil factory loaded ctgs fired in Garands and carbines, m-16's etc. It is rare, but they do occur on occaision. :holysheep

I shoot somewhere between 3-5K a year, and have been doing so for many years. Also, I have once in awhile, at the various ranges that I have been a member of, found unfired rounds of all different kinds of ammo (factory and reloads) with the firing pin indent on the primer (some of them pretty heavy). Have pulled the blts on a few of these and found a couple without powder. Have never tried Wolf primers because no body in this area carries them, but will if I ever get my hands on a brick or two.
1Shirt!:coffee:

[milkman]

Got the parts from Numrich. When I dasassembled the bolt I found the old firing pin spring was a full coil shorter than the new one. It had probably been stored for 50+ years cocked. It also had a firing pin protrusion of about .110 which I reduced by about half and reused the old pin.

I think that has eliminated the misfire problems with the wolf primers in this rifle. I still get occasional misfires in another Savage rifle, which is almost new. That is also probably a problem with the rifle, not the primers made by Wolf / Tula.

With that said, they are the only primers giving me problems, in any rifle I own, for WHATEVER reason, and it is my choice to buy other brands in the future,UNLESS there is enough price differential to make up for the headaches.

Thanks for all the replies and the very good information. It led me where I needed to go.
Milkman