What would you like to see?

[x101airborne]

Inkedbylee and I were discussing the different modifications that COULD be done to streamline the AR-15 for specific applications. While we had good ideas, I was curious as to yall's opinions. Would yall like to see custom AR's in semi-auto / pump assist? Maybe bolt action only? I also had an idea for a three position gas block to allow a rifle to shoot semi only, full bore, or supressed simply by changing gas settings. Also, to allow the use of a safe/semi/full lower. This would allow the use of specific lowers with the same trigger pulls and feel, but allowing the flexibility of different calibers, sights, scopes, barrel configurations, etc. I have several ideas, albeit each with their own set of problems, but that is what R&D is for. Even if the ideas and opinions are not feasable, I would like to hear the "Man, if I only could get......"

For my next project, I was thinking a light weight AR-10 platform weapon in 358 Winchester.

Really, guys. Let me hear your ideas and opinions. No idea is worth it if you dont have a market to supply.

[oneokie]

I have seen and handled a pump action AR pistol, was a neat toy, but that is the only one I have seen or heard about.

[arjacobson]

45acp-simple as that.......I realize the mag issues but everyone else who makes 45 uppers charge HUGE dollars. If you can come up with a reasonable priced 45 upper the seas might just part..:smile: 7.62x25 tok also!!

[x101airborne]

45acp-simple as that.......I realize the mag issues but everyone else who makes 45 uppers charge HUGE dollars. If you can come up with a reasonable priced 45 upper the seas might just part..:smile: 7.62x25 tok also!!

Here we go. YES! Great idea. A blowback 45 ACP upper. Maybe Thompson mags? or Glock mags? I was thinking of one in 10mm. 7.62 Tok? Sure,,,, why not?

My idea for the pump thing, goes I BELIEVE that maybe I have thought of a way to have a trip inside the upper so that when you pump the bolt back, once all the way to the rear, the trip releases the bolt from the pump rods and the bolt is allowed to either catch to the rear on an empty mag, or to slam forward with the full force of the buffer spring. Now I know that S P O R T S works ok, but it is disruptive to stop firing, and everyone I know, will usually use their firing hand to manipulate the weapon. This takes TIME. With my idea, IF it works, clearing a malfunction will take less than 1/3 the time it does with S P O R T S. And it allows the hands to remain relative to the firing position for a faster re-aquisition of the weapon.

This may be a little more in depth than perhaps I need to be, but I am always looking for a better mouse trap!

[arjacobson]

Glock mags if you could make them work. Don't know if you would have much meat on the sides of the lower though....:(. Complete tok uppers would be:Fire:

[Dutch4122]

A 10mm Auto carbine with a 16.5 inch barrel has always been something I've been interested in.

And since the idea of a .45 has come up; what is the feasability of a .45 Win Mag? The LeMag M1 carbines required a major redesign/overhaul of the system to handle the .45 Win Mag IIRC. Would this be necessary with an AR platform?

.223 Remington = 55,000 PSI

.45 Win Mag = 40,000 CUP

Just thinking out loud here. :popcorn:

[x101airborne]

Excellent idea. 45 win mag would work fine. It would have to be a blow back action (wich I prefer for pistol cartriges). Reaming out the barel extension to accomodate a wider bolt face and then just machine a bolt head. I would have to try it, but I think the only other thing that would be required is to replace the spring in the buffer tube.

Here is another to contemplate....... 44 Automag!

[Hamish]

Funny you should ask, how about an 8x45, using the 8mm Max. boolit? (I'm only half joking)

Any of the BR case family would be killer, 6,7,.30 Bellm. Semi .243 perfomance in a standard length action?


A well thought out, easy to use, adjustable gas block. Hmmm,,,,,

Come up with a .45 acp barrel/bolt set up,close to the cost of a Hi Point carbine and the world is your oyster.

Yup, .45 acp with Thompson mags.

Speaking of SPORTS,,,

http://www.wonderhowto.com/how-to-clear-m4-ar15-rifle-malfunctions-286294/

Short and to the point.

@(:^]#>:::

[scb]

Rimless 357 Harrett made out 6.8 brass. Could be loaded with 357 Harrett dies. Neck might be a little short. Or they could be formed from 30 rem. cases.

[Finster101]

I would be very curious about a .45 ACP or 10mm upper.

[wiljen]

5.45x39 in an inexpensive upper to match the S&W Mp Sport. That way - cheap gun, cheap ammo.

and a 6.5/284 Win on an AR-10 platform.

[x101airborne]

I agree guys. I have been dreaming of a 5.45 upper for a long time. And of course, 7.62x39 will be a standard shop inventory item.

I also would like to develope a line of AR-10 clones / style weapons that are ULTRA-lite. And possibly as short as legally possible. Mainly for use hog hunting / packing around. Collapsable stocks, 16" barrels chambered for the 358 winchester and 338 federal. Big ole hog medicine. Not that the 50 beo and the 450 bushmaster and 450 socom dont already do it, but if we only stopped with one, we wouldn't have a choice!

[x101airborne]

On a side note, midway has plain 556 complete uppers for 359.99. I might need to grab a couple.

[x101airborne]

Rimless 357 Harrett made out 6.8 brass. Could be loaded with 357 Harrett dies. Neck might be a little short. Or they could be formed from 30 rem. cases.

Interesting..... If we re-named the cartrige with the short throat, could it be a proprietary thing? Like the "357 boolits"? Hmmmm...... 358 SCB? Less powerful than the 358 win, more powerful than the 7.62x39? Hey, the more I talk about it, the more I want one!!!!

[FrankG]

How about necking up the 7.62x39 to 358 and use 762x39 mags ?

Out of curiosity I made a mock up with a berdan casing necking it to accept a 121 gr .358 boolit .

http://i17.photobucket.com/albums/b74/ModocWrangler/stubby.jpg

[scb]

How about necking up the 7.62x39 to 358 and use 762x39 mags ?

Out of curiosity I made a mock up with a berdan casing necking it to accept a 121 gr .358 boolit .

The main reason I wouldn't care for it is the cost of dies. Priced a set of custom dies lately?

[FrankG]

Good point ..........unless their were several made on a group thing by Lee or someone.

Heck, Id be plum tickled with a 45ACP upper AR !!

[x101airborne]

If there is enough interest in the dies, why not have a group buy?

[FrankG]

Wonder what kind of velocities could be had with 120-170 gr boolits ?

[MakeMineA10mm]

How about necking up the 7.62x39 to 358 and use 762x39 mags ?

Out of curiosity I made a mock up with a berdan casing necking it to accept a 121 gr .358 boolit .



Frank's onto something. I assume you've heard of the Soviet 9x39?? (It's their big-bore version of the 300 Whisper intended for converting AKs to a suppressed assault rifle for Spetznatz?) Frank, I think you need at least a 358311 RN, and a 200gr or heavier would be interesting...


X101, I'd encourage you on the 10mm upper. I've been wanting one for a LONG time (naturally). Also, if you make a 44AutoMag upper, I'd HAVE to have one, but what would you do for mags?

[FrankG]

All I had on hand was a lil 121 to stuff in the case for a photo. But now the 195 for 358 WInny would be neat !

[x101airborne]

Frank's onto something. I assume you've heard of the Soviet 9x39?? (It's their big-bore version of the 300 Whisper intended for converting AKs to a suppressed assault rifle for Spetznatz?) Frank, I think you need at least a 358311 RN, and a 200gr or heavier would be interesting...


X101, I'd encourage you on the 10mm upper. I've been wanting one for a LONG time (naturally). Also, if you make a 44AutoMag upper, I'd HAVE to have one, but what would you do for mags?

Well, of course, I would have to build a 10mm upper and dangle it in front of you on a string. Then jerk it up when you grab for it:p

As for the 44 automag..... It is my guess. and only a guess..... If the 50 beo and 450 bushmaster CAN use standard 556 mags, I would be interested to see if they would feed. I know they would be a slightly staggered mag, not fully, but hey.... what the heck?

[Multigunner]

A reissue (?) of the original CAR-15 type collapsable butt stock might be nice, though the more modern six position butt stocks are more practical.

The .358 caliber wildcat would be cool for heavy bullet subsonic loads for suppressed carbines. Very much like the 9mm cartridge used by some Russian suppressed military selective fire carbines.

I'm pretty sure that the .44 and .45 magnum pistol cartridges are a bit too hot for a blow back action. The closest to something along that line was the limited production Thompson carbines that used a long cased .45 cartridge intended for medium sized game but also developed as a sort of squad auto with bipod and other features to allow the Thompson design to be stretched to fill in for the BAR at medium ranges.
That long case conversion used a magazine first developed to feed a shot cartridge for riot control work. The extra clearance space for the drum left just enough room for the larger shot shell magazine.

The Turks manufacture a dedicated .410 chambered M-16 look alike for riot control work. I think those are a hesitation blowback, that might be adaptable to a long case .44 or .45 pistol cartridge. They are built for .410 shotshell pressure levels, so these may not be suitable for magnum pistol pressure levels.

PS
While some 7.62 and 9mm cartridges generate magnum type pressure levels the lightweight of their standard bullet types compared to the .44 and .45 magnum auto cartridges allows for a bolt that is relatively light and compact.
A cartridge driving a bullet that weighs twice as much as a 9mm bullet at similar velocities and pressure levels would require a very heavy bolt to prevent case blow outs, excessive wear to moving parts, etc.
Perhaps a modification of the Pederson device could be adapted to fit into the bolt way of the AR type upper without permanent alterations. That or a updated form of the Cristobal/Berreta hesitation lock.
Theres plenty of length to play with, but not much leeway in diameter.

[rockrat]

Since everyone likes the Rhineland 45 acp kit, why not a 45 bolt action kit, that uses 45 acp mags

[x101airborne]

Well, Multigunner has opened my mind to other ideas. All very true. I was wondering if moving the gas port on a gas operated auto would work or if a true blowback auto would work. I will need to research these different devices and designs more. For a delayed bowback design, I would have thought an increased bolt weight would accomplish that, but it is a guess.

[x101airborne]

Since everyone likes the Rhineland 45 acp kit, why not a 45 bolt action kit, that uses 45 acp mags

Ooooohh, yeah! Right up my alley!

[Idaho Sharpshooter]

If you are thinking uppers, check out www.largrizzly.com and see the really cool OPS-4 upper.

They have replaced the troublesome rear latch charging handle and replaced it with an FN-style side charger. You can buy them right sided, left sided, or ambidextrous.
Upper with complete bolt and carrier has a retail around $300.

Want to go pistol caliber?

Check out www.lonewolfdistributing.com. They showed a dedicated AR-type lower that takes Glock magazines. They come in all the calibers Glocks do.

[RugerFan]

I also had an idea for a three position gas block to allow a rifle to shoot semi only, full bore, or supressed simply by changing gas settings. Also, to allow the use of a safe/semi/full lower.

Ya, something like that. A gunsmith buddy of mine actually did something similar to use with a suppressor. He drilled a second gas port closer to the breech. At this point he installed a spigot of sorts. When shooting a suppressor, he turned the spigot (my term) 90 degrees. This shut off the normal flow of gas from the original gas port and allowed gas to flow from the shorter distance port so there would be enough pressure to function the action. For shooting without a suppressor, just turn the spigot back.

I know there are adjustable gas ports, so maybe this is a tad "over-engineered," but I thought it was pretty sharp anyway. I'm in the process of ordering parts to build a .300 Blackout upper, so this sort of thing has me intrigued.

[x101airborne]

That is kinda my point. I mean, it is cool to be able to supress an AR (in my case a 10), but having to break cheek to stock weld to operate the action is a major pain. I want to be able to cycle the action automatically and keep throwing major pain, not having to deal with it.

Earlier it was mentioned that the 44 and 45 magnums may create a little too much oomph for a true blowback design. I had thought about that, and without knowing the exact operation of the ruger 44 carbine, would it be possible to use a similar strength bolt and design? Inquiring minds want to know!

[inkedbylee]

I think we are going to have a box of F-up uppers but hey lets do it I still think a bolt upper would just be bad *** to be able to drop it on and change from semi to bolt with the push of your take down pins. Think of having a semi .223 and drop the upper and go to say a bolt 6.5 or any of the many rounds that will fit in the ar-15 mag. thay make the bolt 50bmg uppers but i want a bolt upper that you can use the mag with. let me know what you think of that to i do want a 45acp semi upper and have now for 3 years

[Bob Krack]

I think we are going to have a box of F-up uppers but hey lets do it I still think a bolt upper would just be bad *** to be able to drop it on and change from semi to bolt with the push of your take down pins. Think of having a semi .223 and drop the upper and go to say a bolt 6.5 or any of the many rounds that will fit in the ar-15 mag. thay make the bolt 50bmg uppers but i want a bolt upper that you can use the mag with. let me know what you think of that to i do want a 45acp semi upper and have now for 3 years
Don't know what I'm talking about - but what about a 6.8SPC?

Bob

[x101airborne]

Bob, 6.8 SPC will DEFINATELY be one of the ones we are interested. That and the 6.5 grendel. Anything that will feed out of a standard AR-15 or AR-10 lower will absolutely be what we are going for.

[jameslovesjammie]

Don't know what I'm talking about - but what about a 6.8SPC?

Bob

I would like a 18" medium heavy 6.8 SPC Spec II barrel with a proper 1-12" twist. 90% of the market uses a 10 twist, which is really handicapping the cartridge's ballistic potential.

[wiljen]

a truly leftie ar - not a starndard right handed one with ambi controls.

[x101airborne]

Wiljen, I can almost gurantee full left hand rifles. Inkedbylee is a lefty, so he has an interest.

[wiljen]

Well if/when you do have them in hand, let me know - I'm in.

[MakeMineA10mm]

Well, of course, I would have to build a 10mm upper and dangle it in front of you on a string. Then jerk it up when you grab for it:p
DUDE! That's just not right... :target_smiley:


As for the 44 automag..... It is my guess. and only a guess..... If the 50 beo and 450 bushmaster CAN use standard 556 mags, I would be interested to see if they would feed. I know they would be a slightly staggered mag, not fully, but hey.... what the heck?

I don't think so. The 44 AMP is a MUCH short OAL round than the others you mention, so I'm betting there will be nose-dive issues and/or problems with rounds staggering front-to-back causing mag jams.

I'm thinking, if you do this, you'll need to use 20-rd. mags, make a block to fill in the rear .625" or so of the magazine, and use a shortened follower. The problem is then where to find a mag spring of the right rate and size to fit in the smaller area... Or, just spit-balling here, but you could block the front of the magazine, and build a feed-ramp into the top of the block, so those fat bullets would feed better from the mag up into the chamber/barrel extension area.

Or, and again - you got my dreaming ideas going, you could make it out of 308 brass cut longer than the 44 AMP and then the length issue shouldn't be such a problem, although it wouldn't be a 44 AMP anymore...

[x101airborne]

Well, keep dreaming. I am putting in about 4 grand in licensing applications in about 2 weeks. These ideas born here are what will fuel the startup business.

Cut out of 308 brass and longer to fit the mag. Hmmmm... Call it the 444 auto? Seems to solve a lot of problems in my mind.

Really, guys. Even ideas that may or may not seem realistic are appreciated. Just because it may or may not seem viable does not mean it is not a good idea.

lee and I were talking last nite about necking down 10mm brass to 22 rifle cal and chambering pistols for them marketing them to varmint / coon hunters. Build them on 357 mag frames and offer all types of barrel lengths. Maximum range abality, minimal pelt damage, limited risk of overpenetration.

[MakeMineA10mm]

Well, it would probably be shorter than a 444 Marlin, so I'd call it the "44 Auto Maximum" :grin:

Of course, went to google and find it's already been done: 44 AutoMag AR (http://www.beyond556.com/bboard/archive/index.php/t-4984.html?). There is some data in there on dwell time, port pressures and some other details. Apparently, the guy is/was selling a kit to DIY-AR guys...

The 224 BOZ has already been done and re-done. 223XR (http://glocktalk.com/forums/showthread.php?t=27162) If you've got development money, perhaps you could contact Tazz10mm over at GT, as he's already done some of the work too. He could do the pistols and you could do the ARs... ;-)

Better yet, if you're going to do it in the AR platform, just use the 6.8mm (same case head size as the 10mm - .422") and neck it down for 224" bullets. It's been done, so reamers are out there. I saw an article about it in Precision Shooting magazine a couple years back. I was thinking about doing this anyway, so I'd have a semi-auto (rimless) version of the 219 Donaldson Wasp...

[GRUMPA]

lee and I were talking last nite about necking down 10mm brass to 22 rifle cal and chambering pistols for them marketing them to varmint / coon hunters. Build them on 357 mag frames and offer all types of barrel lengths. Maximum range abality, minimal pelt damage, limited risk of overpenetration.


I think they came out with that already but I have never seen or heard about it since I read about it in an issue of Guns&Ammo. I know I still have that issue floating around I just have to find it.

Basically IIRC it was built on a 45 auto frame, they took a small primered 10mm or longer 40cal case and necked it down to 22cal and called it the 224 BOTZ cartridge. Sounded like a real screamer, but like I said once I read about it I never heard of it again.

[x101airborne]

How bout an AR-10 in 358 win? 338 Federal?

[Aloxite]

I like the adjustable gas block. I've been thinking about a retro ar in 300 blackout. Cmmg has a 16 inch barrel with several steps for gas blocks or fsbs. I would like to put an adjustable gas block at the carbine position. One with two levels and an off. Then put a fsb at the rifle position and use A1 handguards. The cherry on top would be a nodak spud upper with the charging handle inside the carry handle. With the gas off you could use it like a bolt gun. With a can it would be real quiet. Sort of a colt 605ish design.

Eta - The real trick would be to have an easy way to switck the gas block settings quickly. I'm thinking a hex head so you could reach in with an allen wrench. Also it would be ideal if the part that has the different gas ports could be removed so you could customize the ports.

[x101airborne]

I have a drawing of a gas block (its just a hand drawing right now) that is a three level gas block, Full, Half, and off. This block will require a port much closer to the chamber than normal, so it would almost have to be a custom build upper. The adjustment would extend to the outside of the handguard and have a lever for easy turning. I want the gas block to be easily taken apart mainly to clean it. Some of that subsonic stuff really isnt all that clean.

[rockrat]

Along with a bolt 45acp upper, make a regular 45acp blowback upper that takes a common mag, being it a single stack, Glock,Ruger or Para mag.

Only drawback with the 44/08 round is that it is a bit narrow for the mag. 450B brass is about .035" wider. The dummy rounds I made didn't fit very well.

Another option is using 458 Socom brass and necking down to 44. You could use 458 Socom dies to size the body/shoulder and a 44 mag die for the neck.

How about taking a 35 Rem reamer and short chambering a barrel, the cut down 35 Rem dies to use to load the round. Use 7.62 x 39 brass. Give us another 35 cal round.

[Aloxite]

I have a drawing of a gas block (its just a hand drawing right now) that is a three level gas block, Full, Half, and off. This block will require a port much closer to the chamber than normal, so it would almost have to be a custom build upper. The adjustment would extend to the outside of the handguard and have a lever for easy turning. I want the gas block to be easily taken apart mainly to clean it. Some of that subsonic stuff really isnt all that clean.


That CMMG barrel has several steps at the rifle, mid-length, carbine, and pistol gas block locations. You can purchase them with the ports drilled at either the carbine or pistol locations. Naturally they are all different diameters with the pistol location being the largest.

Making it the diameter of the pistol gas block location would be cool. The smaller you can make it the more you could sell since many people already have a handguard they want to use.

[x101airborne]

Not only that, but also we could sell a supressed upper that would look like a normal bull barrel but without the weight. Pistol gas port, free float handguard with rails, seamless supressor. Combine that with a full auto lower and keep it at carbine length or even a little shorter. Handy, handy, handy. In fact, I may have to make my first one a 30 Remington or a 7.62x39. I already call my 7.62 AR my "Can Opener" I have everything I need in a kit ready to go except for a can opener. And whatever needs a "can" opened on it, I am prepared more than adequately.

[Harter66]

Not much of a reach and lacking imagination , how about a 9mm Win mag aka 9x30 aka 223 cut at the shoulder or 9x40 w/just the neck removed. In production they used 147s in some Grizzley 1911s. Beta mags,5 shots,just 35cal feed issues and head space on the mouth. 9mm dies ,357 moulds . 1-14 twist gets you to 250gn pointy boolits and those other things too. Keep it around $800 and under 8# empty ,20"bbl,short flash hider.

Mmmmmmmmmm,go fast,hit hard,go heavy ,slow and silent, either way plenty of power big hole.

[Hamish]

I am a dyed in the wool 7TCU (7x45) fan, but, if, as I am assuming here, we are talking about something that more than one person wants to be realistic.

The 300 AAC Blackout is poised to be THE next incarnation of the AR. It is head and shoulders above the TCU family of cartridges due to loading flexibility and bullet choice, even if it is ballistically inferior in the eyes of anyone who has ever touched off a 6 or 7 mm Ugalde.

That said, WE are talking about what would we like to see as Cast Boolits shooters.

Here goes:

AR 15 upper; true ambidextrous, left and right side charging. (Not just a lefty thing. Wether CQB or hunting, it just makes good sense.)

Barrel; chamber capable of taking anything fed to it, up to the big Whisper boolit, with a twist rate specifically for shooting cast. (Wether that is one twist rate for 16", and another for 20", I leave to those who know better than I.) Whether this is truly possible from an accuracy standpoint is another one for the "experts". I personally like to be able to shoot both light and heavy bullets/boolits.

Factory blackout ammo is designed to run a bone stock bolt and buffer without resorting to a variable gas valve. With cast, IMO, it would not only be a good idea, but a pre-requisite to be able to shoot opposing weights of the boolit spectrum. If I am incorrect, please say so. x101 has posted about an idea for a multi-position block earlier.

That's one idea.

[WD2A7X3]

One that I looked into buying but was putoff by the price was a .17 HMR upper. Lots of states you can only use the smaller calibers on public land during small game season. But the cheapest I found was $700 for just the upper.

If you could get that to the $300-$400 range I bet there'd be some intrest.