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garandsrus
03-10-2007, 04:24 PM
Hi,

I just purchased an unopened 10 lb carton of Win 452. I did a search here for some loads but didn't find many references to the powder.

Does anyone use this powder? If so, what do you load it in? I know that it was primarilly a shotgun powder and has been discontinued. I checked a burn rate chart and it was close to 231, which I use for many of my pistol loads.

I was hoping that it could be used in rifles similar to Red Dot or Unique. It is faster than Unique and slower than Red Dot.

Thanks,
John

KYCaster
03-10-2007, 09:21 PM
It used to be very popular for IPSC major loads in 45APC, but was apparently dropped by Win. because of its reversed temp. sensitivity. Hotter-is-slower-cooler-is-faster.

When Win. dropped it, Hodgden picked it up and called it Titegroup. Same maker, same stuff.....same, same.

Don't know if that helps any, but there it is.

Jerry

454PB
03-10-2007, 10:02 PM
I've been using 5 grs. behind a 230 gr. Lee TC in my .45 auto. I haven't chronographed this load, but it feels fairly mild and shoots accurately. The burn rate chart I use shows AA452 slightly slower than 231.

Titegroup, Huh.....thanks for that, never heard it before.

454PB
03-10-2007, 10:47 PM
Take a look at this burn chart:

http://www.reloadbench.com/burn.html

It shows Titegroup 12 brackets faster than AA452. You would think the two powders should be closer on the chart.

oso
03-10-2007, 11:15 PM
It used to be very popular for IPSC major loads in 45APC, but was apparently dropped by Win. because of its reversed temp. sensitivity. Hotter-is-slower-cooler-is-faster.

When Win. dropped it, Hodgden picked it up and called it Titegroup. Same maker, same stuff.....same, same.

Don't know if that helps any, but there it is.

Jerry

Sorry, doesn't help. IIRC from personal experience Win 452 AA is the same as Hodgdon Trap 100, not Titegroup which has a different appearance with darker irregular grains and different burning characteristics.
I've used old Hodgdon data for Trap 100 in light shotgun and handgun loads. Win only published light shotgun load data. I have no data and have not used any of these in other firearms. Data for what pistol loads would you want?

MtGun44
03-11-2007, 01:02 AM
IIRC 452AA was used for .38 Super major caliber loads, not .45 acp loads.
I believe that this would put it's burning rate closer to Blue Dot
or W571/HS7 range. I was chronoing a lot of match ammo in those
days for IPSC matches and it definitely had the backwards temperature
sensitivity, and I think it was being used to "make major" with heavy
bullets in .38 Super. I never used it myself, and may 'misremember'
the caliber it was used in.

Bill

RayinNH
03-11-2007, 10:32 AM
John, two other burn rate charts show it being between W231 and HP-38.

http://home.hiwaay.net/%7Estargate/powder/powder.htm
#41 on this chart, not even close to Titegroup.

http://www.ramshot.com/powders/burnrate.php
#20 on this chart, still a fair distance away from Titegroup.

I have heard more than once that W231 and HP-38 were the same powder...Ray

felix
03-11-2007, 10:38 AM
No, Ray, they are the same speed, except for lot variations, but they are different powders made in different plants. ... felix

RayinNH
03-11-2007, 10:45 AM
Felix, thanks for clarifying...Ray

garandsrus
03-11-2007, 11:08 AM
All,

Thanks for the help identifying uses for this powder.... That's an interesting temperature sensitivity fact!

I don't shoot .45 ACP at this point, so I am either looking for cast pistol loads in:
38 spc
357 mag
9 mm
45 Long Colt
44 mag

or cast rifle loads in:
.223
6.5x55
.30 carbine
30-30
30-06
7.5x55
.375 Win

I could always just use the powder for shotgun shells (primarilly 20 ga) which was it's original purpose, but the reality is that I don't shoot too much shotgun any more since I started shooting pistol and rifle.

Thanks again,
John

oso
03-11-2007, 02:56 PM
All,
I don't shoot .45 ACP at this point, so I am either looking for cast pistol loads in:
38 spc
357 mag
9 mm
45 Long Colt
44 mag

I could always just use the powder for shotgun shells (primarilly 20 ga) which was it's original purpose, but the reality is that I don't shoot too much shotgun any more since I started shooting pistol and rifle.

Thanks again,
John

John, what bullet weights do you use in each handgun cartridge?
This powder was originally used for 12 Ga target loads.
Winchester does not list a 20 ga load with 452AA in the manuals I have at hand.
Hodgdon lists 13.5 gr Trap 100 for 20 ga 2.75" 7/8 oz WAA wad in Win CF case at 1104 fps and 10,500 lup.
Lyman Shotshell Handbook 2nd Ed. lists 17 gr 452 AA for 20 ga 2.75" 7/8 oz RXP20 wad in Rem RXP case at 1200 fps and 10,120 lup.

Patrick L
03-11-2007, 05:36 PM
John,

If I recall correctly(and I'm going back to the early/mid 80s when I started reloading shotshells) 452AA was a 12 ga powder, not 20. I believe the 20 ga Winchester powder was 473AA. Again I'm firing from memory here, so take it with a grain or two of salt.

Just don't want to see anyone get hurt!

singleshotbuff
03-11-2007, 08:53 PM
Gentlemen,

Maybe this will shed some light on this powder. I have a Winchester counter mat advertisement from several years ago when I worked in a gun shop. I keep it on my loading bench to lay things on as it is padded. It lists Winchester ball powders, along with their intended uses.

Anyway, according o this mat "WST (win super target) powder is comparable to and SUCCEEDES 452AA". I'm not sure if this'll help, as I don't know about availability of WST data. I looked in an older WInchester data book and it lists WST in 12ga loads, 20ga 3/4oz loads , 38 Spl, 40 S&W, 10mm & 45 ACP loads. Another Winchester book may contain other loads. I have a selection of Winchester load books in my files from several years, I can look in them to see if I can find other loads with WST if this would be of any help.

Hope this helps.

SSB

BeeMan
03-11-2007, 10:38 PM
I found 452AA listed in the tenth edition Winchester Reloading Components Catalog and Ball Powder Propellant Loading Data, copyright 1985. It says this is the powder to duplicate the ballistics of 12 ga Double AA factory loads.

For handguns, it is shown only in a couple 38 Special and 45 ACP loads. Other handgun powders listed are 231, 296, and some 680 loads. The manual includes 540 and 571 in various shot shell loads, which are reported by some sources as being equivalent to HS-6 and HS-7, but no handgun loads are listed.

BeeMan

MtGun44
03-12-2007, 01:08 AM
HS-6 = W541 and HS7=W571, only lot to lot variation differences.
Same powder made in the same plant marketed by two different
companies until Hodgdon took over marketing the Win powders.

Bill

Boz330
03-12-2007, 10:24 AM
As KY Caster pointed out this powder is extremely sensitive to temp. change. I've shot well in excess of 100K in a 45 with an HG-68 200gr boolit. If you developed a load for 90* weather and shot that same load at 32* the velocity increase would be well in excess of 100FPS difference. I would think that the preasure would also be quite a bit higher, so be careful.
The big advantage to this powder was it was cheap and the felt recoil was consideraby less than 231. I never used any in my Super since it was off the market by that time. I would be very leery of trying that stuff in any bottleneck case or rifle cartridge lest you be wearing it. When I loaded it I shot it. If you did work up a load in the summer and let it sit till cold weather and then tried to shoot it the preasure spike might be well over what the rifle could take.

Be careful
Bob

castalott
03-12-2007, 08:28 PM
That used to be my favorite powder for plinkers in 308 or 30/30. Just a few grains behind a 130 plinker.....fun, fun, fun....After I couldn't get it anymore...I went to Win Super lite...another good powder for plinkers but hard to get now.... I need to try the super target...if it works, I need several pounds....

garandsrus
03-12-2007, 09:50 PM
Thanks everyone for the information.... I have a chronograph so I can check the velocity of the loads and record the temperature. I am just looking for light loads from this powder, so any increase in pressure shouldn't cause a problem.

The 10 lb carton I bought is unopened and was $50. I will smell the powder to make sure that it hasn't gone bad. The person I bought it from is very knowledgable about reloading, guns, etc so I don't expect any problems.

Castalott and Boz330 - Do you remember what your load data was?

Thanks again to everyone that responded...

John

Coastie
03-13-2007, 12:02 AM
452AA is listed in Lyman's Shotshell Handbook 3rd Edition in the 12, 16 and 20 gauge sections. In the 12 gauge section it is used for 1 1/8 oz loads and is listed between Red Dot and Hi-Skor 700 (don't know if that placement in this list has anything to do with the burn rate or not). In the 16 gauge section it is listed with 1 oz loads between Red Dot and Unique. In the 20 gauge section it is listed as a7/8 oz load in the "lead spot" and just before Green Dot. Actually, there are very few listings for this powder in the entire book. I still have a pound of it from when I used to load "lead" shotgun (liked Unique and SR 7625 better) and until I read the above comments I had no idea where I could use it.

Lloyd Smale
03-13-2007, 05:09 AM
I believe this is the right answer. Terry Merback is a freind of mine and back when he was a gun writter he was given a pile of it. He shoots it alot and when i came across some and couldnt find much data for it i asked him and he told me that his contact at win. said that wst replaced it and to use that data.
Gentlemen,

Maybe this will shed some light on this powder. I have a Winchester counter mat advertisement from several years ago when I worked in a gun shop. I keep it on my loading bench to lay things on as it is padded. It lists Winchester ball powders, along with their intended uses.

Anyway, according o this mat "WST (win super target) powder is comparable to and SUCCEEDES 452AA". I'm not sure if this'll help, as I don't know about availability of WST data. I looked in an older WInchester data book and it lists WST in 12ga loads, 20ga 3/4oz loads , 38 Spl, 40 S&W, 10mm & 45 ACP loads. Another Winchester book may contain other loads. I have a selection of Winchester load books in my files from several years, I can look in them to see if I can find other loads with WST if this would be of any help.

Hope this helps.

SSB

Boz330
03-13-2007, 10:08 AM
5gr for a 200gr 45 should be a good place to start. I think that I was loading 5.2 for cold weather and 5.4 for hot wearther. I will try to look it up tonite if I remember. $50 was about what I was paying in the mid 80s for a 10 pounder. I think it started at 48 and was about 55 when it was discontinued. I really did like it for IPSC competition once I knew it's quirks. Recoil and thus target acquisition was very mild.

Bob

BerdanIII
03-28-2007, 11:46 AM
Winchester 452AA Loads from the Speer manual:

Caliber Bullet Charge Vel.
.32 S&W Long 90 Speer HBWC 1.6 674
1.8 737
.32 H&R Magnum 100 Speer Plinker 4.4 953
4.9 990
90 Speer HBWC 2.3 780
2.5 811
.32-20 WCF 100 Speer Plinker 7.3 1424
8.1 1476
110 Speer Varminter 6.8 1313
7.4 1339
110 Speer Spire Point, Round Nose 6.8 1246
7.4 1295
130 Speer HP, Flat Nose 6.4 1159
7.1 1217
.380 ACP 95 Speer TMJ 3.3 913
3.7 1016
9mm Parabellum 124 Speer TMJ 4.9 1064
5.4 1142
.38 Super 95 Speer TMJ 6.5 1316
7.2 1336
.38 S&W 110 Speer HP 3.0 796
3.3 857
125 Speer SP, HP 3.1 792
3.4 844
148 Speer BBWC 2.9 703
Crimped in top lube groove 3.2 736
.38 Special 148 Speer BBWC 2.8 772
3.1 802
148 Speer HBWC 2.8 743
3.1 787
158 Speer LSWC, LRN, LSWC HP 3.6 763
4.0 842
110 Speer HP 4.5 934
+P 5.4 1072
.357 Magnum 148 Speer HBWC 3.0 758
3.3 812
158 Speer LSWC, LSWC HP 5.0 960
5.5 1004
110 Speer HP 12.5 1434
13.5 1488
125 Speer SP, HP 10.5 1261
11.5 1349
.41 Magnum 220 Speer SP 8.3 1004
9.3 1052
.44 Mag. 240 Speer SP, HP, TMJ 12.5 1197
13.5 1205
.45 Auto Rim 200 Speer LSWC 3.5 665
4.0 743
.45 ACP 185 Speer TMJ Match 4.3 757
4.7 819
200 Speer TMJ Combat 5.0 841
5.5 898
200 Speer HP 5.0 868
5.5 916
230 Speer TMJ 4.7 760
5.3 825
260 Speer HP 4.6 712
5.0 786
Note: Per Handloader’s Digest 1994, 13th. Edition, Scot 453 “performs almost Identically to Winchester 452AA”

The table I made was too big to be uploaded.

garandsrus
03-28-2007, 12:15 PM
BerdanIII,

Thank you very much! That's a lot of typing...

John

Guido4198
03-28-2007, 07:16 PM
Would you be willin to share your Super-lite loads..???
I've worked up a couple, but still have 10# or so of that powder on hand, and don't shoot Trap anymore.
Thanks,
Don

Bamboo
03-31-2007, 12:21 AM
Greetings, I was doing some searching for load data on WW 452AA myself this evening and came across this thread. I have three pistol loads for 452AA which I have used for years with great results.

1. .45 ACP (5" bbl) -
180g lead SWC, 5.6 to 5.7 gr, 1.250 OAL, chronos @ 1000 fps on a warm (80 degree) day.

2. .45 ACP (5" bbl) -
200g lead SWC, 5.2 to 5.4 gr, 1.250 OAL, chronos @ 900 fps on a warm (80 degree) day.

3. .38 Super (5" compensated, but not ported race gun, bar-sto fully supported bbl) -
115 g Win. FMJ HB bulk pack bullets, 4.5 to 4.6 gr, 1.263 OAL, chronos @ about 1100 fps on a warm (80 degree) day. Can be down loaded to about 3.5g using this bullet for lighter sub-minor power factor loads (like the steel challenge stuff). This is a very accurate mouse load in the .38 super.


I used 452AA for IPSC in the .45 back in the day, and it is a very good powder for that. Very accurate, soft shooting, and works a compensator well. I still use it in .38 super for minor loads...at least until the last 5 lbs. or so that I have is gone. I don't think I'd be inclined to try and make major power factor with 452AA in the .38 super as when overloaded it starts to show pressure signs (primer flow) pretty quickly. WW540, HS-6, or AA #7 (and now lots of others) are much better for making major in the .38 Super.

Anyway, just wanted to share that data as I know finding loads for 452AA can be pretty hard these days. Also, Thank You BerdanIII for posting the speer data.

old wanderer
11-25-2011, 11:47 PM
I used to love the 452AA back in the early 80's when I was shooting 2 or 3 weekends a month of IPSC.

Tonight I was looking through some "stuff" trying to find my 200 Gr bullet mold, when I found I still had a 1/2 keg of 452AA and almost a full keg of 472AA...

I carry a 45 Kimber, and have been kicking myself about not practicing enough..

I used to make major with 5.3 Gr of 452AA, but was not aware of the reverse temp sensitivity of this powder.

I belong to a range near Seattle, that keeps a log on the fire, in a enclosed pistol shooting range, and stays open till 10 PM. so no more excuses. tomorrow I will turn 50# of ingots into some 200 Gr boolits, figure out the right rotor for my Lil dandy powder measure, and load up some brass that has been sitting in boxes for 20 years.

It's about time that Hi So Kimber gets hot and dirty.

Reload3006
11-25-2011, 11:52 PM
452AA is indeed a shotgun powder but it has many documented uses in pistol. As most of you know Olin sold off their powder division to Hodgdon and Hodgdon no longer supports or produces WW 452AA My Speer #9 Manual lists several loads using that powder so if your like me and have a lot of it to use up there is a good place to go.

Vinne
11-26-2011, 12:26 AM
452AA is mainly used in 12 ga shotgun loads. It came after 473AA. Both are great powders but very fine powders and sometimes leaks out a little around the bushing onto the bench. I can try to dig up some loading info for you, just PM me.

swheeler
11-26-2011, 01:09 PM
GRUS; look in your Speer Number 11, there is limited data for 9mm, 38 spcl, 357 and 45ACP.

bobthenailer
11-26-2011, 05:38 PM
Would you be willin to share your Super-lite loads..???
I've worked up a couple, but still have 10# or so of that powder on hand, and don't shoot Trap anymore.
Thanks,
Don
The only load i have for WSL is 5.0 gr in the 45 acp with a Saeco #63 170 gr swc and #068 200gr swc but these 2 loads are super accurate out of all of my 45acp handguns . I only have a few thousand loaded and probley about a pound or a little more left in the keg.

Rick459
11-26-2011, 07:13 PM
garandsrus,
in my Speer reloading manual #11 it shows 452AA being used in .38 special ,357mag. and .45acp.. what grain bullets do you plan on using in .38 special and .357mag. and i will relay the info to you from the manual.
Rick

w30wcf
11-27-2011, 08:02 AM
A question for users of 452AA.

Several years ago a elderly fellow I knew passed away. I was asked to go through his reloading stuff. I came across an unmarked container of powder that is kind of buff colored.

I did a density check using Lee powder dippers and it is just about spot on to 452AA.

My question - Is 452AA a buff colored powder?

Thank you,
w30wcf

Rick459
11-27-2011, 02:47 PM
w30wcf
here is a photo of the 452AA that i have. i hope that this picture helps you as it is the best i can do with the camera i have.
Rick
http://i123.photobucket.com/albums/o301/rick4570/Picture328.jpg

w30wcf
11-28-2011, 08:39 AM
Rick,
Thank you for the pic. Hmmm..... The powder my friend had does not look like that. I'll post a pic later this week to see if anyone might have an idea of what it might be.

Thank you again,

w30wcf