New member - buying my first 1874 45-70

[Virginian]

Hello,

I'm just about ready to pull the trigger on a Shiloh 45-70. My intended purpose is to 90% target shooting and about 10% hunting whitetail here in VA. I've been shooting for 40 years and hunted with modern muzzleloaders for the last 25 years. I've been reloading for roughly 2 to 3 years and consider myself moderate in reloading capabilities. (still learning seating depths vs. the lands)

I love the look and style of the classic looking buffalo hunter rifles and I'm trending on that direction. I guess in my case, the nostalgia is trumping my thought process.

I know zippy on reloading for BPCR. I'm hoping to get some help from this forum. I joined this forum to start casting my bullets for my 45 LC & 41 mag. I had no idea there was this kind of info on BPCR!

I have a couple of questions regard the 45/70:

- Barrel length? I'm thing 32" to 34" (I enjoy long distance target shooting)
- Pistol grip, cheek rest? I like the look of the Quigley and Hartford with the straight stock.
- Barrel? I was thinking a heavy octagonal, any opinions vs. hvy/half, std/oct, std/half, or round? I'm not sure I know the traditional stance on this one?
- Sights? The rifle come with a blade front sight and either a full buckhorn or semi-buckhorn. Eventually I would like to get a venier tang sight. Should this be ordered now or would I have to ship the rifle back to have these sights installed?

This item alone is a big ticket item on the price of the rifle. Most places are out of brass at this time. Which powder do I start with, which mold and what size mold?

I'm open to suggestions and I live in Arlington, VA during the week and on the weekends I'm in Spotsylvania where I do my shooting and load development. If there's any reloaders locally, I would appreciate some help.

I've ordered Lyman's Cast Bullet Handbook 4th Edition and Shooting Buffalo Rifles of the Old West by Mike Venturino. I also just subscribed to Black Powder Cartridge News.

Thank for your time,

Eric

[bigted]

very cool. welcome to the most fun forum in the universe. there will be plenty of answers to your questions but ill say that the books you mention will get you on your way in fine shape with a starter answer for all your initial questions and then some. they are a pretty good read and easy to understand. there are plenty of books around that cover this sport and the Paul Mathews books will round out another area for you with regard to opinions and how-to's.

im gonna keep my ussual loud mouth quiet for a change and bow to the real thinkers here so enjoy the suggestions and remarks your in for. these fellers will always ...[well almost]...LOL steer you rite and in a straight line to boot. they have all helped me on numerous ocasions.

enjoy and again...WELCOME.

[oldred]

And another one is about to become addicted!

[montana_charlie]

I have a couple of questions regard the 45/70:

- Barrel length? I'm thing 32" to 34" ( I enjoy long distance target shooting)
The neat thing about a 32" barrel is that it creates a 36" sight radius when used with a tang sight. The vernier scale causes the increments ('points') to be one hundredth of an inch. With a 36" sight radius, you get an inch of movement at a hundred yards for each point.

The (shorter) 30" barrel gets one MOA of movement for each point on the sight.

The sight radius on a 34" barrel will cause impact movement to be ... well ... 'smaller than an inch'.


- Pistol grip, cheek rest? I like the look of the Quigley and Hartford with the straight stock.
If you will be doing mostly target, you'll probably want a pistol grip. The grip carved into a Sharps stock is really too long for the human hand, but is better than nothing.
On the other hand, adding an 'ebony' PG to a straight gripped stock is both traditional, and good looking. The main advantage is that it fits a lot better.

- Barrel? I was thinking a heavy octagonal, any opinions vs. hvy/half, std/oct, std/half, or round? I'm not sure I know the traditional stance on this one?
A standard tapered 32" barrel is actually too heavy for comfortable offhand shooting unless you condition for it. Adding some weight in the buttstock balances it enough to be reasonable.
A heavy octagon 34" would need Bigfoot (or Quigley) to shoot it while standing up.

- Sights? The rifle come with a blade front sight and either a full buckhorn or semi-buckhorn. Eventually I would like to get a venier tang sight. Should this be ordered now or would I have to ship the rifle back to have these sights installed?
You can add a tang sight at any time. It just mounts with two screws into holes that are already present.

CM

[powderburnerr]

all good points but I do disagree on the barrel weight ,a #1 heavy is well balanced and handles very well offhand and if target shooting the heavier barrel will allow you to shoot the long strings of shots in a match without as much fatigue.

[Don McDowell]

Alot of what your asking boils down to mostly personal preference.
So for what you described I don't think you'll find anything better than the roughrider with a 30 inch heavy barrel. This one has the shotgun butt
Altho my #3 with the same barrel is an excellent rifle. This one has the military butt.
Altho either rifle with a 32 inch standard octagon barrel would be alright as well. (I do own an Italian with a 32 inch standard barrel in #3 configuration0
I like both the semi buck and the full buck.
You can shoot some very good groups with the barrel sights with just a little bit of practice. You may have to widen the notch in the rear sight just a tad. You can also simply mount a soul or vernier sight and still keep right on going with the front blade. After about 700 yds or so the front blade does start to cover alot of target so you end up having to take a pretty deep sixoclock hold.
Powder right now I don't think you'll find anything better than 2f KIK in the 45-70.If you don't want to do real powder then 5744 is pretty good.
Bullet the Saeco 645 will take you from point blank to 1000 yds with plenty of accuracy to spare.
So there you go that's my thoughts on it. [smilie=l:

[myfriendis410]

Don't necessarily overlook the Pedersoli. I have one and it's a really nicely put together rifle. The fit and finish are excellent and I've gotten some one hole five shot groups out of it at 100 yards. It does like a cast bullet too.

I don't load for BP (been there, done that) and have only shot smokeless. I'm getting good results, low pressures and excellent velocity using my cast 518 gr. projectile. I recommend a tang sight.

Whichever rifle you decide on; you are in for all kinds of fun. It's my favorite gun to simply shoot on the bench. I've killed a couple of nice hogs with it too and it works quite well.

[Virginian]

Some really great feedback here. Thank you!

I should mention that I'm 6'4" with a long reach. Would this make a differance between the models. I understand the shotgun rubber pad would add some length, but that's not going to happen. I love the metal stock butt.

Eric

[montana_charlie]

Some really great feedback here. Thank you!

I should mention that I'm 6'4" with a long reach. Would this make a differance between the models. I understand the shotgun rubber pad would add some length, but that's not going to happen. I love the metal stock butt.
As I ubderstand it ...
The Shiloh website says there is no choice in length of pull on the military butt.
So, for your long arms, you will need to have a shotgun butt finished in the length you require.

You should check with the Shiloh people to verify all of this.

CM

[Don McDowell]

The pull on the Shiloh's are supposed to be 14 1/4, but for some reason or other the roughridger seems shorter than the #3. The #3 does have alot of drop to the stock, the roughrider is not so much drop.

[MGySgt]

Virginian - would you like to shoot a Quigley before you buy it? I live in Caroline county and have a range in my back yard.

Guess you shoot at Issack Waltons out towards Orange?

[Virginian]

Virginian - would you like to shoot a Quigley before you buy it? I live in Caroline county and have a range in my back yard.

Guess you shoot at Issack Waltons out towards Orange?

Master Gunnery Sergeant,

That's mighty kind offer! I would be more interested in sholdering one than getting to shoot one. They're far and few between in these parts and it tough to make 2k+ decision on a picture on the net that's about 3" to look at.

I lease a small 500 acre farm field for my shooting. My shooting range is surrounded by either corn or beans. My wife & I built a log cabin on Lake Anna & hope to retire one of these decades. I'll be down there come Thursday night and return back to the city Sunday evening.

Here's a pic of the inside.
http://i164.photobucket.com/albums/u29/DeathWraith07/Log%20Home/IMG_1042.jpg
That rifle on the mantle is a Hawkins 50 cal that my father made and I took that buck with. I have a matching twin to that rifle in 45 cal, south paw that was my mother's. They both were a better shot than I am... This rifle was built from scratch and I have a few others.

I will never turn down the opportunity to meet a fellow shooter! Thanks for the invite & I'll PM you my contact ifo if you have time. I'll cook you a mean ribeye & a tall glass of redeye if you peek over my shoulder when I go to reload this beast!

Thanks again!
Eric

[MGySgt]

I answered your PM - and you can shoulder it, fondle it, drool near it (not on it) and shoot it if you want. You just can't take it home with you! :)

Currently I do not load black for it or my other 1866 repro of a Sharps Business rifle. That one I have taken elk with.

They are both in 45/90.

Drew

[hickstick_10]

Hello,

I'm just about ready to pull the trigger on a Shiloh 45-70. My intended purpose is to 90% target shooting and about 10% hunting whitetail here in VA. I've been shooting for 40 years and hunted with modern muzzleloaders for the last 25 years. I've been reloading for roughly 2 to 3 years and consider myself moderate in reloading capabilities. (still learning seating depths vs. the lands)

I love the look and style of the classic looking buffalo hunter rifles and I'm trending on that direction. I guess in my case, the nostalgia is trumping my thought process.

I know zippy on reloading for BPCR. I'm hoping to get some help from this forum. I joined this forum to start casting my bullets for my 45 LC & 41 mag. I had no idea there was this kind of info on BPCR!

I have a couple of questions regard the 45/70:

- Barrel length? I'm thing 32" to 34" (I enjoy long distance target shooting)
- Pistol grip, cheek rest? I like the look of the Quigley and Hartford with the straight stock.
- Barrel? I was thinking a heavy octagonal, any opinions vs. hvy/half, std/oct, std/half, or round? I'm not sure I know the traditional stance on this one?
- Sights? The rifle come with a blade front sight and either a full buckhorn or semi-buckhorn. Eventually I would like to get a venier tang sight. Should this be ordered now or would I have to ship the rifle back to have these sights installed?

This item alone is a big ticket item on the price of the rifle. Most places are out of brass at this time. Which powder do I start with, which mold and what size mold?

I'm open to suggestions and I live in Arlington, VA during the week and on the weekends I'm in Spotsylvania where I do my shooting and load development. If there's any reloaders locally, I would appreciate some help.

I've ordered Lyman's Cast Bullet Handbook 4th Edition and Shooting Buffalo Rifles of the Old West by Mike Venturino. I also just subscribed to Black Powder Cartridge News.

Thank for your time,

Eric

I went through a similar process as you this summer, but I ordered of the rack as it was very close to what I wanted (it only lacked brass euschons)

Long range express( pistol grip stock with cheek piece), 32 inch heavy barrel, fancy wood, AA finish, pewter tip and steel shotgun butt plate. MVA soule/front sights were installed at the factory.

A pistol grip is easier to keep a hold of, saves the sight base from digging into your thumb every once in awhile upon firing. It does not look as pretty in my opinion as a straight stock on a sharps, but it makes for very comfortable shooting. The 32 inch heavy barrel is to heavy for most hunting unless you plan to loaf in a deer stand or blind. And hunting with a soul sight sight and a front arpeture is not the best thing in the world. Plane buckhorn and brass/copper blade beat them for deer hands down.

Once you see the size of the rifle and feel how heavy it is with a 32 inch heavy, you'l realize it will be for shooting steel/paper 99% of the time. Make a decisions before you order if you want a nice rifle to shoot alot of targets/steel or if you want a hunting rifle. If yuo choose to mount a tang sight, get them to do it at the factory, I wasn't charged to have mine mounted so its one less thing you need to worry about.

[NickSS]

Hi,
Welcome to the forum. I am a dedicated Sharps rifle buff and have several and have had a few more besides. For target work you want a Shotgun butt and a pistol grip (or a straight grip with an ebony PG added). You also want a straight stock with little drop at the heal if you are going for long distance shooting. You also want the heavy barrel. I have a Shiloh long range express with a 34 inch heavy barrel and also a No 1 sporter with a heavy 30 inch barrel. These rifles are great for long distance target shooting and the barrel weight makes for pleasant shooting of long strings in competition. Neither rifle makes weight for BPCR silhouette competition so I use other rifles for that sport with lighter weight barrels. As for hunting I do not use them as they are too heavy to lug around all day and too pretty to abuse. My Sharps hunting rifle is a Uberti (made by Pedersoli) 45-70 with a 30 inch round barrel. It has the military butt stock and weighs in at around 9.5 pounds. I can carry that all day without killing myself. My other hunbting rifle is a C Sharps 1875 with a standard weight octagon barrel that is 28 inches long and weighs a little less than my Uberti. I have taken gam with both of them.

[myfriendis410]

Some really great feedback here. Thank you!

I should mention that I'm 6'4" with a long reach. Would this make a differance between the models. I understand the shotgun rubber pad would add some length, but that's not going to happen. I love the metal stock butt.

Eric

I am also 6' 4" (used to be an inch taller) and around 225 lbs. My Pedersoli with the stock butt plate fits beautifully (mine is the Billy Dixon). In heavy loadings it will hurt, but I too much prefer the "look" of the metal butt plate. In fact; I carried it in the field last night hog hunting (nothing showed up), and it was not unpleasant to carry "African" (over the shoulder).

Mine shoots "J" bullets 3 rounds touching at 100, one of my cast loads averages sub 1" and I'm currently working with a PP version of that same bullet with so-so results so far.

[MGySgt]

One thing to remember with the Pedersoli Quigley - it is 13.21 pounds empty and without the Soule long range sights. It is VERY barrel heavy.

I cannot shoot mine off hand - can't hold it up long enough to get off a good shot.

There is no way I am going to drag that sucker out into the woods (or the CO high country where I hunt Elk). I think the horse would just laugh at me when I put it in the scabard!

[Tim357]

How about a Business Rifle?

[Virginian]

Well... A Montana Rough Rider with a 32" barrel is in transit to my FFL. I'll post up some pictures when it arrives. No I'm trying to figure out all the componants I need to order to reload this round. I'm working on a laundry list and I'll post it in another thread for some more advise.

Thanks,

Eric

[MGySgt]

Take a chamber cast and slug the bore before you order a mould and sizer die.

[Don McDowell]

He won't need to do that. It's a Shiloh. .458 will work .459 if he's going to shoot smokeless.

[Texantothecore]

There is a very long and honorable history concerning the use of a shooting stick with muzzle loaders. When you have a 38 to 44" octagon barrel there is just no way to shoot freehand. And your second shot is 45 seconds away. So I would look at that for carrying in the woods.

I have a 44" barrel that will be turned into a .32 cal flintlock squirrel rifle and it is really heavy.

[Wayne Smith]

If you want to come down my way I have what I believe is a Business Rifle in 40-70BN. I'd be glad to let you handle it, drool over it, and if we have time even shoot it. I load BP for it.

[Virginian]

Here she is! Pics aren't all that great, the sun wasn't out and a very overcast day. These pictures do not due the wood justice.

MT Roughrider
32" HVY/HLF
Pack hardened finish
Semi fancy wood
Shotgun steel butt plate
Pewter tip

Eric
http://i164.photobucket.com/albums/u29/DeathWraith07/09%20Hunting/Guns/IMG_0300.jpg
http://i164.photobucket.com/albums/u29/DeathWraith07/09%20Hunting/Guns/IMG_0301.jpg
http://i164.photobucket.com/albums/u29/DeathWraith07/09%20Hunting/Guns/IMG_0302.jpg
http://i164.photobucket.com/albums/u29/DeathWraith07/09%20Hunting/Guns/IMG_0297.jpg
http://i164.photobucket.com/albums/u29/DeathWraith07/09%20Hunting/Guns/IMG_0298.jpg

[Don McDowell]

Works of art ,aren't they.

[Baja_Traveler]

Welcome to the addiction.

Here is an excellent bit of reading that helped me figure out what to do when I got my Pedersolli Sharps Creedmore. Lots of good info on shooting and loading black powder cartridges in these rifles. My first time using this Drop Box program - let me know how it works for you...
Black_Powder_Cartridge_Rifles.doc (http://dl.dropbox.com/u/59256860/BLACK%20POWDER%20CARTRIDGE%20RIFLES.doc)