Shortening an old shotgun?

[fatelk]

A friend has an old Ithaca that he wants me to help him with. It's a c.1950 model 37, run of the mill vintage pump 12 gauge, with a stock that needs refinishing and thinning blue.

He wants to make a home-defense gun out of it. I personally have mixed feelings about that because I like these old guns the way they are, but whatever.

I understand that barrel length is measured from the bolt face, correct? I told him minimum 18 1/2" barrel, as I want to stay well clear of any possible legal issues.

He also wants to shorten the stock a little. How short is too short on such a gun, for any sort of comfort? I understand this is measured from trigger to end of stock?

I don't have a lathe, so my thought was to cut with a hacksaw, face with a file (draw filing) as square as possible, then drill and tap for the sight bead, assuming I have the right tap size.

It hurts me a little to start hacking on a neat old gun, but it's far from pristine and they are pretty common.

[wilit]

The federal requirement for a shotgun is 18" barrel measured like you described and 26" OAL. Most people stick with 18.5" barrel length to give a little more insurance.

Sent from my DROID2 using Tapatalk

[stubshaft]

IIRC - The total length must be over 27".

[fatelk]

I understand about the minimum legal OAL, I was just wondering about the minimum practical OAL. He doesn't want a pistol grip shotgun (I talked him out of that one- pistol grip shotguns are a total joke, in my opinion, only good for looking cool in the movies).

We were wondering about a shortened stock with a good recoil pad, something like 11" or 12". The thought is to have a shorter gun that still has a useable stock. Has anyone used a gun like this? I'm wondering if it would be uncomfortable to the point of impractical.

[Bambeno]

Shorten the barrel (20 is fine IMHO), the stock shorter
than 13 is unwieldy for most people. Try it longer, you can
always shorten it if it suits. Keeping a safety margin above
legal min is a good thing.

[Tokarev]

As I own 18" and 15" barrels for my Rem 870 clone, I have some patterns to share. The 15" barrel prints 20" pattern at 8-9 yards with 7 1/2. 18" barrel probably prints 17-18" patterns at that range. How practical that is, it is up to the user ;)

[uscra112]

Yes, thousands of barrels have been shortened with nothing more than a hacksaw, using a file and a square to true up after sawing. Carefully done, it works for a rifle, where the crown is of far more importance than a shotgun.

Yes, I'd have qualms about messing up a perfectly good Ithaca. Can't you get him to trade it off for a Rem 870 or something?

[oscarflytyer]

If you are going to cut the bbl, might want to use a pipe cutter and score it first. This should help provide a small channel for the hack saw blade to get a good running start and slide all over the bbl.

[wv109323]

I would be hesitate to shorten the stock much. If your friend is of average build I would try the factory length. If you shorten the stock over two inches you run into the problem that every time you fire the shotgun from your shoulder your thumb will bust you in the nose.
A shotgun with an 18" barrel is a pretty quick handling firearm.
+1 on getting a Remington 870. I like the old Ithaca 37.

[CLAYPOOL]

Those are worth money and as was said "A Shame"...

[Buddy]

I've went the pipe cutter route myself and if done slowly you can make the entire cut. Dress it with a round file and some emery cloth and it will turn out fine. I would not touch the stock, in a high stress situation you want a solid feel that is natural feeling, not something that feels any different than your everyday gun you may hunt or shoot with. FWIW I'd find an old beater 870 and use it. Ithaca has reopened for business in Upper Sandusky, OH and the new shotguns are pretty expensive.

[jrayborn]

Wow, you guys unhappy about cutting the Ithaca would be really unpleased with the two Winchester model 12's I am working on. Well one right now, if I like it I will do the next one as well. There is just something about a Take-Down parkerized riot-gun.:mrgreen:

[fatelk]

Thanks everyone for the advice. You definitely convinced me about the stock.

We're currently considering an easy solution. I have an old Mossberg with the riot barrel that I might just swap. The Mossberg is a solid gun, but I've never really cared for it.

[MtGun44]

Cutting the stock makes it FAR harder to control and hit with for most people.

Looks cool, pretty impractical in real life.

I really do like the swap idea rather than butchering up a nice old gun.

Bill

[El Bango]

I have customers come in occasionally wanting collectible shotguns shortened and I advise them to find a replacement barrel first (or I'll find one for them)Then I'll cut the replacement.They always thank me later.

[fatelk]

The serial number is within a few thousand of mine. I looked up mine somewhere online a couple years ago and it was made in '49 (my favorite shotgun). I helped another friend repair the cracked stock on his, and IIRC it was made in the early '40s.

I recently bought an old Remington 721 that dates to '55. It's funny how one's interests change over time. Lately I've appreciated vintage guns from that era, especially if they can be had cheap and aren't too messed up.

I know from a collecting standpoint it would be smarter to buy nicer specimens, but I don't have the financial wherewithal to call myself a "collector", so I'm content to buy what I can afford.

[jrayborn]

You might be VERY surprised how valuable "cheap" firearms become if they suddenly become interesting. Just look at how the prices of old Winchester Lever-Guns or almost any U.S. Military firearm have gone up. It was not that long ago, or so I have heard, that you could find barrels full of 1917 rifles at the Montgomery Ward's for $17 each.

Collect what YOU like and enjoy. Who knows maybe you will end up having fun AND making a good investment.

[machinisttx]

Ithaca 37 barrels aren't that easy to find and are lots more pricey than others when you do. A 37 made in 1950 has a barrel that is hand fitted to the receiver, meaning replacements have to be hand fitted as well.

IMO, hacking the barrel down on one of these is a bad idea and will certainly reduce the value of the gun. He's better off buying an 870 or a mossberg 500/590. Barrels and replacement parts are easier to find and much cheaper.

[thehouseproduct]

A friend has an old Ithaca that he wants me to help him with. It's a c.1950 model 37, run of the mill vintage pump 12 gauge, with a stock that needs refinishing and thinning blue.

He wants to make a home-defense gun out of it. I personally have mixed feelings about that because I like these old guns the way they are, but whatever.

I understand that barrel length is measured from the bolt face, correct? I told him minimum 18 1/2" barrel, as I want to stay well clear of any possible legal issues.

He also wants to shorten the stock a little. How short is too short on such a gun, for any sort of comfort? I understand this is measured from trigger to end of stock?

I don't have a lathe, so my thought was to cut with a hacksaw, face with a file (draw filing) as square as possible, then drill and tap for the sight bead, assuming I have the right tap size.

It hurts me a little to start hacking on a neat old gun, but it's far from pristine and they are pretty common.
I cut my model 12 barrel this way. The older barrels were thin so I ended up soldering a front sight ramp on the gun. I'm very happy with how it turned out.

If you are going to cut the bbl, might want to use a pipe cutter and score it first. This should help provide a small channel for the hack saw blade to get a good running start and slide all over the bbl.
Scoring it with a pipe cutter is a good idea. Just don't try to cut all the way through with a pipe cutter. It rolls the inside edge over as a barrel constriction. My model 12 started out that way. I had to shorten it further to fix it.

[gunshot98]

Hey, some of you would cut my head off but, I have a guy that is bringing me a Ruger #1 custom 1 of 500 and wants 1 inch cut off the barrel. Makes me sick but he has 4 more just like it.

[richhodg66]

I was at a gun show yesterday and looked over a table full of shotgun barrels, there were two 12 gauge Ithaca barrels and one 16 gauge. One 12 gauge barrel was $100 and had no finish left at all, almost in the white. The other looked good and was $200. I like the 37s and have a few, I wouldn't cut up that gun, there are too many cheap shotguns made now. The Chinese copies of the 37 might be an option, Cabela's has them on sale dirt cheap pretty often.

[thehouseproduct]

I was at a gun show yesterday and looked over a table full of shotgun barrels, there were two 12 gauge Ithaca barrels and one 16 gauge. One 12 gauge barrel was $100 and had no finish left at all, almost in the white. The other looked good and was $200. I like the 37s and have a few, I wouldn't cut up that gun, there are too many cheap shotguns made now. The Chinese copies of the 37 might be an option, Cabela's has them on sale dirt cheap pretty often.
Browning BPS and Stevens both make low cost bottom eject 12 gauges too.

[evan price]

Ya know, the more that get cut up just makes the rest worth more. I've chopped up some nice older doubles that were cosmetically challenged and had dinged up barrels and they went from wall hangers to fun coach guns.

It's his gun. Do what he wants with it.

I cut mine back to 19"when I do one. It's 1" over minimum. That way if you make a mistake you can possibly cut it back a time or two more and not have to scrap the barrel or risk a Randy Weaver situation.... The difference between 18" and 20" is not all that much in terms of usability.

I true mine up with a T-square, file with a diamond hone, make sure the inside of the barrel has no lip, then heat the barrel end up gently with the propane torch and then dab some Oxpho-Blue on the cut end. #6x48 drill & tap for a commercial bead.

[Sasquatch-1]

If you do this you may want to revisit the whole 18" thing. Some jurisdiction require a minimum of 20" barrel. So if this guy plans to move to a different location 18" may be to short.

Now in the past I had the pleasure of shooting an old Rossi Coach Gun. This already had a 20" barrel and the stock was shorter then normal. It was a Side By Side though and it had external hammers. If he could find something like this it would make a great personel defense gun and really looks sweet.

If he insist on having more then 2 shots I would try and find a Mossberg 500. Might even be able to find one cheap that was used by a police department. The police configuration is fairly short and easy to maneuver in somewhat tight places.

[richhodg66]

Browning BPS and Stevens both make low cost bottom eject 12 gauges too.

The BPS is a nice gun, and with that safety is truly ambidextrous. I bought one for my boys, but they aren't what I'd consider cheap.

I belive the Stevens you're talking about are the Chinese Ithaca 37 knock offs. I haven't shot one, but Bruce Drake has one and did a little write up in another thread, apparently they are decent serviceable shotguns.

[bruce drake]

Decent and serviceable is the right wording. Complete kit for the Stevens Model 350 is under $300 if you are looking for a good bargain. Buy the field and security barrel set so you have more options and a spare barrel as well.

The field barrel is a 26" vent rib barrel that uses WinChokes for variable pattern sets. The 18" Security barrel is Cylinder-bored with a bead front sight. The LOP is perfect for me and I am 5'8" with average-length arms.

Bruce

[jrayborn]

Well here is the model 12 Winchester.

http://i798.photobucket.com/albums/yy261/jrayborn32/WInchestermodel12Riot004.jpg

http://i798.photobucket.com/albums/yy261/jrayborn32/WInchestermodel12Riot003.jpg

http://i798.photobucket.com/albums/yy261/jrayborn32/WInchestermodel12Riot002.jpg

http://i798.photobucket.com/albums/yy261/jrayborn32/WInchestermodel12Riot001.jpg

Fresh park, fresh BLO, and a nice new bead on top of the 18.5" barrel. Sweet!

[thehouseproduct]

Well here is the model 12 Winchester.

http://i798.photobucket.com/albums/yy261/jrayborn32/WInchestermodel12Riot004.jpg

http://i798.photobucket.com/albums/yy261/jrayborn32/WInchestermodel12Riot003.jpg

http://i798.photobucket.com/albums/yy261/jrayborn32/WInchestermodel12Riot002.jpg

http://i798.photobucket.com/albums/yy261/jrayborn32/WInchestermodel12Riot001.jpg

Fresh park, fresh BLO, and a nice new bead on top of the 18.5" barrel. Sweet!
Mine is nearly identical except for the sight ramp mentioned above. I love the parked look with satin finish wood. One of my funnest range toys. Anyone who bad mouths slam firing hasn't tried it. :-)

[jrayborn]

Slam-firing, is my stress-balm...:mrgreen:

[Tokarev]

Just give her a bit of polishing with soft cloth/suede and call it a day:cool:

[richhodg66]

Well here is the model 12 Winchester.

http://i798.photobucket.com/albums/yy261/jrayborn32/WInchestermodel12Riot004.jpg

http://i798.photobucket.com/albums/yy261/jrayborn32/WInchestermodel12Riot003.jpg

http://i798.photobucket.com/albums/yy261/jrayborn32/WInchestermodel12Riot002.jpg

http://i798.photobucket.com/albums/yy261/jrayborn32/WInchestermodel12Riot001.jpg

Fresh park, fresh BLO, and a nice new bead on top of the 18.5" barrel. Sweet!

You guys need to quit posting pics like this, I love the way that shotgun looks and happen to know where a Model 12 is I wouldn't mind redoing like that since it was reblued badly and lost all the lettering on it. That one looks like the gun William Holden used in the final shootout of The Wild Bunch.

I have way too many projects I'm not making progress on now, don't give me more ideas, LOL! By the way, one of my very favorite guns is an old Ithaca prison guard gun I have that is also parkerized and oil finished stock. I have slam fired it like that in a long time, maybe I need to take it out. It's only about five pounds or so it's a handful.

[jrayborn]

I have a twin to this old gun that will get "The Treatment" hopefully if I can find time this winter.

[thehouseproduct]

A couple minutes of practice and you can get 3 rounds downrange faster than a lot of semi autos.

[jrayborn]

Ya, and a lot more accurately than you might expect. Its too easy to clang 10"X16" steel plates all day long at 50 yards.

[Frank46]

We have a dealer here in Louisiana that hits the local gun shows. He usually has a rack full of police turn-ins. 870's with cylinder bore barrels. Some ithaca's with the full length mag tubes and possibly a few others. I bought two 870's a few shows apart. The first one was covered in rust but had the mag extension. That one cleaned up beautifly with 4/0 steel wool and clp. Sanded the stock, stained and about 6 coats tru oil. The second had no mag extension tube and did aslo have some rust. 4/0 steel wool and clp to the rescue. Stock doesn't need to be refinished but what the heck. First one cost $215 and the second cost$195. Seems it would be cheaper to locate one of these and with some elbow grease you'd have a winner. Frank

[jrayborn]

Ya, but I the last time I checked, an 870 doesn't have a take-down feature.

[Mooseman]

Ya, but I the last time I checked, an 870 doesn't have a take-down feature.

What ???
The barrels come right off and swap in a minute...They all "take down "!

[excess650]

870s are "takedown", but the magazine tube remains attached to the receiver, unlike the heavier Model 12. Too, the magazine tube extension can be added on the 870. One of mine is an old, plain walnut with 20" rifled barrel with rifle sights. My other is newer, but was well used. It has a 20" cut down barrel with magazine tube extension and is stoked with 8 rounds of buckshot.

While at a gunshow last month I was looking at old doubles with the idea of cutting back to 20". Most had split stocks, some had loose actions, and almost all were over priced. There were several 870s there and priced far more reasonably, and I actually considered buying another.

I'm picking up a 20" 12ga double today, if UPS delivers. Its a new Baikal with double triggers, hammerless, and was prettty inexpensive. I didn't want a hammer gun. It will be 3-4" shorter OAL than my 20" 870 and weigh even less. Truthfully, I wanted a double so I could load blackpowder shells and clean it more easily. The Baikal has chrome lined bores, so should fit the bill.

[Sasquatch-1]

A friend has an old Ithaca that he wants me to help him with. It's a c.1950 model 37, run of the mill vintage pump 12 gauge, with a stock that needs refinishing and thinning blue.

What was the final solution here? Did you trade the Mossberg or modify the Ithaca?

[jrayborn]

The "Take-Down" feature, all took down...

http://i798.photobucket.com/albums/yy261/jrayborn32/WInchestermodel12Riot.jpg