What's the big deal with screwing dies in and out ?

[Patrick L]

Maybe I'm being picky, but when I hear guys raving about the "superiority" of the Hornady Lock'n Load system, I really start to wonder.

I load about 6 or 7 calibers on my RCBS progressive presses. It takes about 30 seconds to screw the pre set dies in nice and snug. When I finish the run, out they go, back into their little boxes.

According to some reports, I should be dead from over exertion. What gives?

[Phil]

I don't know that myself, I load for about forty some odd calibers, some with multiple die sets set up for different rifles. The cost to set up for LNL is prohibitive for that many dies. I've been doing it the old way since 1956 and I guess I'm just used to doing it that way. If it ain't broke, don't fix it.

Cheers,

Phil

[13Echo]

For most rifle loading with only 2 dies it isn't much trouble to just change dies. However for some black powder rifles I'll use a sizing die, expander die, powder compression die. seater die and taper crimp. That's a lot of screwing. I use a Redding turret press for these cartridges, however, if I didn't have a turret I would sure consider the Hornady system. Oh yes, I use a cheap Lee turret for pistol for the same reason. Works great.

Jerry Liles

[Bret4207]

Get a Forster Co-Ax press and then it's even simpler. No screwing, no snapping, to adapters. Just uses the regular lock ring on the die.

[NVcurmudgeon]

Patrick L. has opened the question I've been scratching my head over for quite a while. I currently load for 19 rifle and pistol calibers, and have already collected the die set for the next gun on my needs list. As most of what I load is cast boolits, I have even more die threading to do because of the use of case mouth expander dies. Then there is the "onerous" task of changing conversions for my Dillon square Deal. As Sergeant Bilko famously said, "I'm workingmy fingers to the bone." Hornady's LNL system may have a lot of merits, but being "liberated" from screwing dies in and out, if that is the sole advantage, has never had much appeal to me. Now come on, there must be more reason than easier die changing to sell all that LNL equipment. Hornady isn't stupid, what else does their system do?

If only somebody would invent an easier method of case trimming. There's an idea whose time has come about 150 years ago.

[Larry Gibson]

Like NVcurmudgeon I load for numerous cartridges and have many sets of the screw in dies (40+). I really don't see any disadvantage to still using them. I learned a long time ago that "new" is not necessarily better. Many times "new" is just a marketing ploy to sell other products. I often readjust many of the dies for a given rifle or application anyway. Even on the Dillon 550B with it's removable die head I still readjust the dies. I can't see where the lock 'n load dies would save me much time. With over 40 die sets converting to the lock 'n load system would certainly cost me a lot of $s though. Also I don't think I'm so lazy that I find the task of screwing dies in and out "onerous" or "difficult". Think I'll spend the $s elsewhere and continue being the screwor instead of the screwie.

Larry Gibson

[Sundogg1911]

I dont think it's a problem screwing them in and out. I think it's getting them into adjustment. :roll: I buy seperate tool heads for my Dillons to avoid this, but If I switch boolit types I still have to do some adjusting. With the locking nuts, you can usually avoid any problems though....Im just lazy I guess :drinks:

[Patrick L]

Actually, the main reason I was even asking the question was that I had recently been playing the "What if..." game in my head. If I had to replace my progressive presses, what would I get? I currently use two older RCBS presses that auto index and are 5 station. I really prefer this to manual indexing on my metallic presses, and I like the 5th hole. It appears that the only two choices are a Dillon 650 and the Hornadt LNL. While the Dillon is more $$ on the base price, I would need probably 40-50 of those little bushings to convert all my dies. Like NVcurmudgeon said, many calibers utilize even more dies (expanders, decap only, neck sizers, FL sizers, dedicated seating dies for each bullet, crimp dies, etc.) so that number is not totally out of line.

This whole marketing plan kind of reminds me of the commercial a few years ago for that hardboiled egg peeler. The drama of the commercial made it seem like you would die if you had to experience the agony of peeling eggs with your hands. The woman did a good impression of one of Saddam's torture victims.

I agree with Larry, I'll continue to screw rather than get screwed.

[bart55]

Patrick ,very good analogy witht the egg, I also load for over 40 calibers and have two 550 dillons and rcbs jr and an old bair c press . I really do not have any problem with screwing dies in ad out . I like to cast and reload so much that I get lost doing it ( anyway thats what my wife complains about ) , so happy reloading casting and screwing in dies

[floodgate]

I guess I'm in the minority; Midway had the L-N-L adapters on sale awhile back, and I went ahead and got about three dozen of them for the die sets I use, along with the insert for my old RCBS Rockchunker. I've only used a couple of them so far, but I DO like the idea - I hate having to screw the dies in and out, on this single-stattion press!

floodgate

[rmb721]

On the Hornady LNL, it is not just changing the dies. You can take off the powder measure without taking any dies out. Can you do that on other progressive presses?( I don't know). I only load about eight calibers on the LNL, and all the rest on a Rock Chucker. The bushings are around $30 for a pack of ten. I have two sets of 38/357 dies so I don't have to adjust dies. One thing on the Hornady is that it is better to use a Hornady seating die. Others might not clear the case ejection spring. I know RCBS doesn't. I just got Hornady dies for most of the calibers that I load on the Hornady.

[walltube]

"On the Hornady LNL, it is not just changing the dies. You can take off the powder measure without taking any dies out. Can you do that on other progressive presses?"


Verrry interestink!*

*To quote from one of the skits in "Laugh-'in"

Thank you,

Wt.

[KYCaster]

I've had a L-N-L AP for about a year. Cost me about two hunnert less than an equally equipped Dillon 650. The only "high volumn" loading I do is 45ACP and 38Spl. I usually load about 500 .38's at a run (that'll last me about three months) and leave the press set up for .45 for the duration. So I've changed die sets on this press four or five times in the past year and I'm here to tell ya that, BY GOLLY, I've saved AT LEAST six or seven MINUTES because of the L-N-L adaptors!!!

The L-N-L AP does the job just as good as the Dillon. If the only thing that's keeping you from considering the L-N-L is the cost of the adaptors, then consider this. You can screw the die out of the adaptor just as fast as you can screw it out of any other press, so you only "NEED" five adaptors and they come with the press.

Any other questions?

Jerry

[Dale53]

I have a Dillon 550B for volume tasks. However, I keep a Lee turret press set up for working up loads (4 hole turret press). I can change calibers AND primer size in about ten seconds. Yes, it is much less aggravating to be able to just swap out a turret with all of the dies already set up. OF course, the down side is that you need one set of dies for the Lee and one set for the Dillon (each caliber). However, if you are patient, you cn pick up dies sets pretty cheap and if you have to have them NOW, then Lee offers excellent dies at great prices through F&M or Midway, etc.

When I am "running" a caliber on the Dillon, I like to load a minimum of 500-1000 each session for each caliber. That is much more efficient than running a couple of hundred for different calibers, et al.

I often buy new cases when they are available at favorable prices, but I also keep my eyes open for empty "first nighters" of any caliber that I reload. When the price is right, I buy large quantities. They don't eat anything and have no maintenance costs except a place to put them...

Dale53

[Bad Flynch]

I was very skeptical about the merits of the LNL system for some number of years. However, it is my practice to load 2 or 3 to test for pressure before I go to the range, step out the back door, and fire them. I might repeat that several times in a row and the LNL system saves a lot of tiresome screwing in-and-out. If one does not practice small lot reloading, then this advantage is lost.

[fatnhappy]

That's a lot of screwing.
Jerry Liles


If your hands are tired afterwards you should consider getting a partner to help you.


[smilie=1:

[dromia]

I find them of most use in changing claibre on the LnL AP. Because of the closeness of the dies at the top of progressive presses I've always found that last bit of snugging the die and lock ring down into the press tight enough to make sure there was no movement an bit of a bugger.

The LnL bushings make this easy, with a partial turn they click into place and you know they are snugged in tight and no fiddly twiddly to get them seated. It also eases the initial adjustment of the dies in the press by allowing easy removal of set dies giving space to adjust the others one at a time.

As to quicker or slower that doesn't really matter to me, I regard handloading as a slow measured activity anyway so speed dosen't come into it.

In fact the LnL bushings can, if used "properly" put an extra step into the handloading process, screw die into bushing put bushing into press adjust die in the bushing in the press and tighten, thus extending my enjoyment of the process. :-D

[1hole]

I too have wondered what the problem some have with die swaps. I lock the rings on my dies so set up is irrelivant with a change and we only need to seat the dies handtight in the press (There is a reason most makers have knurled rings on their dies, not wrench flats, but many people seem to think that means to use a pipe wrench on the rings I guess!) :roll:

I spin my dies in and out with both hands, open handed and rolling the die between my palms. This way, if I loaf, it might take me 15 seconds to remove and replace a screw-in die! ?? How much time might I save with a LNL? Zip! :)

For best consistancy, I always batch load my brass, meaning I do each step for the whole lot before I change a die. Even with a three-die load, the time involved with die changes is irrelivant in the larger picture of a loading session. The LNL "snap-in" ring-things would be frivilous for my work pattern. :-D

[montana_charlie]

At my age, if I didn't have dies to screw...

On the other hand, I can just picture getting friendly with some sweet thing and stopping to say, "This won't take long, Darlin'...
I'm just gonna to lock and load!"
CM

[DaveInFloweryBranchGA]

I used to reload on a single stage without the lock n load bushings. Changing dies was a pain in the rear. I hated doing it. It was slow and in spite of the lock ring being set and tightened down, the die always seemed to need some kind of fiddling to get the thing set back right, more time wasted.

6 years ago, I bought a Hornady LnL AP progressive. Put my dies in the LnL bushings. Die changes became quick and easy. Dies stayed adjusted. Dies removed and put back in were repeatable. ZERO fiddling. Quick, one second to change. Seconds add up, minutes add up. With a busy lifestyle, I found those minutes were something I could be doing something else and appreciated the convenience, speed and lack of hassle fiddling with the dies.

As time went by, I realized I could set my press up for any caliber, do some reloading, then, if I wanted to change out a single die, I could in a matter of a couple seconds without disturbing the other die sets/setup on the progressive. I could pull any die off and clean it outside, without having to take the entire turret or toolhead outside. I could pull a powder measure off the press to dump it if I wished, without removing the dies. In other words, I got a lot of flexibility out of it. I found the LnL bushings to be an incredible convenience.

As far as costs, in six years, I've bought 30 bushings. They sell them in packs of ten. The packs are not expensive relative to say, Dillon toolheads. If you don't need a die for a station, you don't need a bushing either, so you only buy bushings when you need or want them.

I use them on my single stage. Makes swapping in a decapping die or a swaging die quick, easy and convenient.

IF you don't get it or don't like it, no big deal. Don't buy it. Me, I've been very glad I did.

Regards,

Dave

[Char-Gar]

Oh Lordy! I have been loading for 48 years and have scores of dies. I really don't have a count. I have been screwing dies in and out all this time and see no pressing reason to change.

We are living in a different age, and the folks of today have so many things to do, they have to have a phone in their ear, a GPS system in their cars, etc. etc. etc. and the poor dears just don't have time to screw with dies.

We living a a time, when anything in use five years ago, just must be no good. A second saved is a second that can be spent on the computor, playing a video game and watching one of the 700 plus channels on the TV.

I grew up in a time when tube radios were "cutting edge" and rubber handles on a wheel barrow were "high tech". I am of the die screwing generation and reckon I will just continue. A couple of Motrin and I am good to screw some more...dies that is!

[Hunter]

Well instead or spending 30 seconds screwing dies in and out it takes about 2 seconds to snap dies in and out with the L-N-L not too mention once they are set up they are set up unless you change them. You think it is too much trouble or don't want to buy the bushings then leave 1 set of bushings in the press and do it the old fashioned way.
There are advantages to the L-N-L as Hornady markets this to compete against the Dillon tool head. For a quick die change set up the L-N-L is cheaper and quicker than the Dillon. It is a matter of convenience and speed. My dad loads on an old Hornady single stage and also could not understand why I made such a fuss over the L-N-L set up until he tried mine and understood.
Don't knock it till you tried it.

[DLCTEX]

I bought the lock-n-load bushings for my rockchucker press as I do a lot of experimenting with a few rounds at a time. My Lee dies don't have lock rings. I found them to a very worthwhile investment. Since buying a Lee classic cast turret most of my dies are in extra turrets that go in and out quickly, but I keep another set of dies for the calibers that I experiment most with. DALE:Fire:

[Char-Gar]

Hunter... I have never put a watch to die screwing in and out, but after reading your 30 second post, I went and did just that. I did it three times and it takes 10 second in and out.

So 10 minus 2 is an eight second savings on time. Rather significant don't you think?

[madcaster]

My past post on this board about blowing my Ruger Accusport Bisley .45LC up is why I use a single stage now-I just aein't gonna risk it again!
I've got time to change my dies!

[DaveInFloweryBranchGA]

For you old farts and your horse and buggy setups:

It's okay, nobody is going to force you to buy that new fangled Model T. You can keep your horse and buggies. Just don't be upset and complain when the Model T comes blasting by you.

Change is normal and resistance to change by older, less flexible minds is normal as well. We will still love and respect you, even if you are an ancient, crusty old crumudgeon type fart.

Grin,

Dave

[Char-Gar]

To: Shorthorn Dave who lives in the flowery branches

Re. Die screwing, change and Old Fartism

Guilty as charged!

[Swagerman]

What in hell is that smell???

Oh, its me.



Swag :mrgreen:

[1hole]

When I wander out to the loading room I'm never in a blaseing hurry. In fact, just thinking of getting in a hurry makes me tired so I go take a nap to let the thought pass. Then I go load. :Fire:

As I drool along in a delightful fog of sulphurous fumes, the 15 seconds of "time saved" I might gain in a couple of hours of pleasant work doing something I enjoy seems irrelivant. In fact, my loading bench is older than many of you! [smilie=1:

But I am old, so you young whipper-snappers just run along and do your high-speed thing as you wish while I carefully craft things of beauty from lead and brass. I have complete faith that some day you too will learn that speed for its own sake can be counter productive. :-D

[KCSO]

I don't do production runs of anything anymore. When I use to do 1000 rds of 38's and 1000 45 ect I didn't mind resetting the dies. Now I do 20 of this and 20 of that and maybe 10 of something else all in one session and it is handy to have the dies all set up in a turret. I have use the Lee press since it first came out as my experimental press and it works well. I now have the Classic cast steel version converted to use the older 3 hole turret, as I had 38 die sets in Lee turrets. I may be spoiled though as I started with a Co-ax in 1976 and lost the ability to screw shortly there after; sort of like saying I DO.

[RugerFan]

LNL is something that’s worth trying. Having done it both ways, I love my LNL and wouldn't go back. I'll pay a little extra for the bushings. Maybe its laziness, but I just love the convenience.

[Hunter]

Hunter... I have never put a watch to die screwing in and out, but after reading your 30 second post, I went and did just that. I did it three times and it takes 10 second in and out.

So 10 minus 2 is an eight second savings on time. Rather significant don't you think?

Well I am sorry for the miscalcuation but I was going off the time listed in an earlier post.
Since I do use the L-N-L I was going from what was posted.
http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?t=14097 first post.
as for your question, yes I do

[Shawrco]

I can't say that turning dies out is any better or worse, but it sure is faster. Here's an advantage that I put to use today... I'm working up a 50yd load for 45acp bullseye shooting. I had 4 different powders, 10 rnds each for two pistols. I did a quick twist/pull to remove the LnL powder measure and all the dies except the size/decap and expander die. I went through the 80 rounds doing the decap/size, prime, and expand/bell steps. Then I charged all the cases with the 4 different powders measured using an old Belding & Mull measure and weighed with scale. Tomorrow I'll pull the dies used today, reinstall the seater and taper crimp dies and finish loading the rounds. After I shoot and determine which is best for each pistol, I'll set up to load full progressive.

So, the LnL bushings made it very convenient/fast to make use of certain stages of the progressive press while doing load development. Twist/pull vs. turn, turn, turn, turn, turn... you get the picture.

[Shawrco]

[QUOTE=Shawrco;162211]I can't say that turning dies out is any better or worse, but it sure is faster.

What I meant to say is the LnL sure is faster... should have proofed my message before submitting... sorry.

[buck1]

I think its one of those things you dont miss untill you've had it. I havent tryed them yet but who knows sooner or latter I may.