Cast bullets success in a FA97?

[zac0419]

I posted this somewhere else (handgunhunt.com) and I figured I'd post it here too.

I'm looking for some input on hunting (wide meplat) cast bullet designs that have worked for you in your 45 Colt Freedom Arms 97's. My dad and I found a nice 97 over the holidays. Currently I'm away working for the next month, so I am just trying to compile information.
The goal is a 250-280 gr cast WFN bullet at 1000-1200 fps
I've done searches and read on this, and I think every other forum, trying to find a few choices to start with. I have found some people had real good success with a Keith bullet and RN designs but I was looking for something with a bit more meplat. I keep waiting for my computer to say "you've reached the end of the internet."

Montana Bullet Works has some pretty good choices for the 97 (<1.6-1.61 OAL) but KRal ( a guy on the other forum) had serious accuracy problems (18-24" at 50 yds) with the 250 WFN most likely associated with "cylinder throat fit". He said it was pretty difficult to seat the bullet in the cylinder. Bullets ordered were .452.

Anyone have any recipes that work well for them in their 97's?

Bullet? FPS? Sized to? Lube? Alloy?

I'd really love to get a WFN 280gr to accurately run at about 1100fps and the Keith 255 will also get a try. I understand that my own experiments will ultimately be the only way to get what I'm looking for, and I have yet to measure dimensions of my revolver. But I've always found it helps to have info from past experiments in my notes when I jump into a new project.

Oh and since it was a new gun, I'll post a picture.

http://i1190.photobucket.com/albums/z458/zac0419/IMG_1288-1.jpg

[subsonic]

I understand that my own experiments will ultimately be the only way to get what I'm looking for, and I have yet to measure dimensions of my revolver. But I've always found it helps to have info from past experiments in my notes when I jump into a new project.

Oh and since it was a new gun, I'll post a picture.

http://i1190.photobucket.com/albums/z458/zac0419/IMG_1288.jpg

That's a nice looking gun. I think the key to your success is the part of your post that I quoted. You will cut to the chase by measuring your gun's throats and bore and then taking a SWAG as to where to start experimenting. In my Ruger, only heavier 300+ cast boolits shot over cases full of slow powders like H110 & AA9 really shine for accuracy. But my Ruger has faster twist than your FA.

Google all you want, but remember that "good" accuracy means different things to different people. Some would be happy to hit the center of a paper plate @ 7yds. Others don't stop searching until they can drive tacks @ 100yds or more.

I have had decent (~2" @ 25yds) luck with the LEE 452-255 RF cast of WDWW over 8gr of Rex 3 powder with a std primer. Since you can't get that Rex 3 powder, try HS6 to get the velocity you want with that boolit or one similar. When my Rex 3 is gone that's what I'll try. A gas checked boolit will increase your success rate. Size to slip fit in your throats.

[Paul105]

zac

You may already know this, but for those not familiar with the FA97, I’ll go ahead and post it any way.

The FA97 cylinders are recessed for case rims, encroaching on the 1.620 (my .45 Colt) cyl length. Your overall length with 1.280" cases will be limited to 1.600' (maybe 1.610" IIRC).


So, the ability to use a specific nose to crimp length will be caliber dependent. You would be able to use a longer nose to crimp length (crimping in the crimp grove) with the .44 special, but not with cases measuring 1.280 (.357, .41Mag, .45 Colt).

Your overall length with 1.280" cases will be limited to 1.600' (maybe 1.610" IIRC).

I can use the RCBS 300gr SWCGC in my FA97 .45 Colt and still crimp in the crimp grove, but the bullet nose is just about flush with the face of the cyl. Montana bullet works quotes the nose to crimp at .350 for this bullet. I actually crimp this bullet over the front drive band to give some margin for error in case of crimp jump. You need to reduce powder charge to account for the reduced case capacity due to the deeper bullet seating.

I also use the 270gr RCBS SAA (SWC) by crimping over the front drive band. Montana Bullet Works list the nose to crimp at .375 for this bullet. It cannot be crimped in the crimp grove and still be within OAL specs.

When using longer bullets, you have a couple of options.
1. You can crimp over the front drive band on SWCs.
2. You can trim your cases to accommodate other crimp location requirements.
3. The crimp can be applied above the crimp grove and crimped along the ogive – with proper case neck tension, there won’t be any bullet movement.
4. There are also some bullets with dual crimp groves (Nominal 300gr Lee FPGC (320gr) and 300gr RCBS (330gr)that will work when crimped in the crimp grove.


The 250gr MT bullets works WFN w/.310 nose to crimp never shot well for me in either the plain base or gc configuration -- all the other MT Bul Wrks WFNs are too long to crimp in the crimp grove.

Cast Performance makes a 265gr WFNGC with a .300 nose to crimp.
http://www.grizzlycartridge.com/store/index.php?app=ecom&ns=prodshow&ref=CP45%2F265

Beartooth Bullets makes a 280gr WFNGC with a .335 nose to crimp.
http://www.beartoothbullets.com/bulletselect/index.htm

Both of the above will work. Cast Performance is a little pricey for casual use. Delivery from Beartooth can be long at times.

I’ve settled on the 300gr RCBS SWC and the Lee 300gr FPGC over 21.5gr H110. These chronograph at 1,100+ fps. The 300gr RCBS SWC (recommended by Lloyd Smale) w/21.5 H110 is the most accurate load I’ve ever found for my M97

My everyday fun load is the RCBS 270gr SAA over 8.0gr of HP38.

Both of the above loads should be considered Ruger Only and will print within an inch of each other at 25yds (the 300s higher) with my hold in the 4 ¼” FA97.

I love my 4 1/4" 97 in .45 Colt. Couldn't be happier with the gun or caliber. Cylinder length limitations can be overcome without much problem.

Hope some of that helps.

Paul

[subsonic]

I have had decent (~2" @ 25yds) luck with the LEE 452-255 RF cast of WDWW over 8gr of Rex 3 powder with a std primer. Since you can't get that Rex 3 powder, try HS6 to get the velocity you want with that boolit or one similar. When my Rex 3 is gone that's what I'll try. A gas checked boolit will increase your success rate. Size to slip fit in your throats.

This LEE boolit I mentioned has a nose of only .250", so it too should fit in your gun. In profile, it's similar to a WFN if you haven't seen one.

[zac0419]

Thanks guys for the input.

Subsonic, I do like the look of those Lee's. I didn't realize it had such a large meplat.

Paul, I'm a newbie to reloading in the truest sense of the word. I'm going to try to avoid the crimp over's and cutting brass until I have logged some more hours. For now it's k.i.s.s. for me, I know that further limits my cast choices. (reading Tim Sundies stuff about 325's at 1300fps from Schofield brass in a little 97 scares me on several levels) I'm sure it's not that complicated but I'm taking baby steps.

I may order some BTB 280's and some 265's from CP and give them a go. My goal is to find one that works well and then buy the mold to cast my own. I currently have the Ruger only and 270-SAA for the 45 and neither works well for my (my, not the gun's) k.i.s.s. handicap. They'll get some time in my Bisley and I'm sure the 270 and my 97 will get along once I start to get more comfortable.

I was thinking the 280 WFN from MBW would work (in my notes somewhere I have stuff from a guy using a LBT WFN 280) but now that I look at their webpage you are right, their LBT 280 is a bit too long. LBT will cut that mold to match the nose you need but I'd hate to drop that money on a custom that I can't get to shoot well. I'll also check out that 300gr RCBS.

I think I'm also going to get that backcopy of Nov 2004 Handloader 231, Brian Pearce did a 97 review and he usually throws in a few cast loads in there.

Thanks again for the input guys, please keep the ideas coming.