red dot in 500sw?

[odfairfaxsub]

can i use the 13 gr red dot data in the 500 sw? or is case space to small after i install a 350 gr bullet

[stubshaft]

You could get it in there but I think Red Dot is a little too fast for a 350 in this cartridge.

[nanuk]

read up on "The Load" then compare the capacity of the 500S&W.

read about it here by searching the web for "Harris the Load"

IIRC the 500S&W capacity is not less than a 45/70.

My guess is it will work fine. But check first.

[kweidner]

If I was going to load reduced for a monster such as that Trail Boss is what I would try. JMHO. I have no experience with uber fast powders or that case. I am assuming here 13 would be reduced. Pardon my ignorance if it is full tilt.

[Andy_P]

I'd work up to 13.0 grs of Red Dot in a strong action (rated up to 50K psi).

In most applications Red Dot is slightly faster than Trail Boss and Titegroup, and published loads are available for both with bullets of 350-370 grs:

Titegroup - 11.0 grs - 23K psi, 18.5 grs - 50K psi
Trail Boss - 12.0 grs - 19K psi

13.0 grs of Red Dot would likely fall in the 35K psi range.

A Quickload analysis would provide another estimate as a sanity check.

[warf73]

I know the 500S&W is a bigger case than the 480 Ruger, but my plinking load is 9.5grs of Red Dot with a 400gr Lee on top.
With that load it was running 1050fps and was the most accurate at 25 yards.

[44man]

I really need to ask WHY? I would never buy a .500 S&W for any reason and to download it is worse. It is just too big for anything.
I love the large calibers but never download any. They are made for certain uses but some are just too large and are useless.
The same applies to the .44 mag. Why load pimp loads when the .44 special works better?
Sorry to be contrary but the truth is when you buy a huge caliber and want to turn it into a .38, why not just shoot the .38?
Now I am a hunter and do not buy large guns for plinking and will never, ever believe shooting light loads from them will help you shoot better. You need to learn the gun and control the recoil.
I would find the very best load for the .500, set it away for the use of it and go to smaller calibers for fun.
Each caliber is best when shot as designed. I never shot the .357 with .38 special loads either unless given free loads
As hard as it is to say and nothing bad intended, some go too big at the start.
The big ones can put you in a place you did not expect. OK, a mistake was made, you have work to do, but to hunt for zero recoil loads is not why you bought the gun. The thing will whip you all over the place and trounce your ego. Nothing puts a man in his place better then recoil. But you can overcome it. You can even avoid body damage with large revolvers while some rifles can tear your heart loose and also your retinas. Stupid over power stuff of no use on earth.

[Andy_P]

Why? That's easy. Because he wants to have light and heavy loads in the same gun. I too shoot 357 mag and 44 Mag, and make no apologies when I do up 38 Spec and 44 Spec loads for them. I'm certainly not going to buy another gun to do that, nor would I try to make a 38 Special into a 357.

[odfairfaxsub]

good point on the 44 special when you want in the 44mag. the real problem inlyes when people turn the 44 special gun into a 44 mag. thats the problems.

[44man]

good point on the 44 special when you want in the 44mag. the real problem inlyes when people turn the 44 special gun into a 44 mag. thats the problems.
True, I do shoot light .44 loads for fun but the larger guns do not shoot good with light loads. You will not improve or get used to the recoil if you spray shots down range.

[odfairfaxsub]

i would have to disagree with you at times with the above post. who said anything about me spraying bullets anyway.

[Alan]

Um, my .500 w/ Trail Boss is one of the most accurate pistols I own. Period. I don't like high pressure blasters - I would much rather shoot a .500 at 20k PSI than a .357 at 35kPSI. The brass lasts forever, easier on your hearing, and it is GREAT for knocking down dead trees.:Fire:

Gradually moving up the scale: A case full of #4895 shoots well and is definitely getting up in the mid-range category, though still 2-300 fps off top end. Really don't think I will go much heavier.

Someone (maybe Cooper?) made the statement that there is no such thing (compared to rifles) as a powerful handgun. When you have a 5-shot revolver that will beat factory .45-70 rounds out of a rifle, I beg to differ. :drinks:

[44man]

i would have to disagree with you at times with the above post. who said anything about me spraying bullets anyway.
It is just that I have never been able to get any accuracy from the big ones if loaded too slow. Same goes for heavy boolits in the 44. Some have turned sideways at 50 yards. It really can get to a spray and pray situation.
I have never found a way around the need for spin, at least enough to keep a boolit staying front end forward.
As for my 45-70, yes it beats most rifles for accuracy but is much slower then most .454 loads and is done with less then half the pressure.
Even my .500 JRH is 300 fps slower then a .500 S&W.
I have never found a need for extreme speed but they still shoot best at the right spin rate.
No way out, if you buy a large gun, shoot it to stability and no more. Once you want a plinker, things go out of whack.
There is one way, use a pipe wrench on the barrel and screw the twist rate to match each velocity! :kidding:

[MaxEnergy]

It is just that I have never been able to get any accuracy from the big ones if loaded too slow.

but you made the blanket statement that you cant get any accuracy loaded down. many have been able to make their big guns shoot with reduced loads. no need to redline all the time in my opinion. sometimes i like to plink with my big bores

[44man]

but you made the blanket statement that you cant get any accuracy loaded down. many have been able to make their big guns shoot with reduced loads. no need to redline all the time in my opinion. sometimes i like to plink with my big bores
It is the definition of accuracy. You know I am a nut! :lol:
But I do not red line.
Certain boolits can not be under spun.
But it is OK to get 6" groups at 50 yards for fun, no gripe from me because it is what you want.
I reject any load that does less then 1" at 50 yards no matter the recoil. Recoil means nothing at all. Most light loads are to remove recoil ONLY. Cost of powder for the right load is not worth thinking about. I shoot the .500 JRH for about 10 cents a shot. To reduce the cost by 2 cents and lose accuracy kind of seems silly.
Now my .44 loads cost about the same as the .500, tenths of a cent difference. To go to a faster powder and the accuracy problems to save money (pennies) just to remove recoil can be solved by getting rid of fear. If the gun hurts you, why did you buy it?
If I had a .500 S&W, it would be shot where it is accurate and it better be able to hit a pop can at 200 yards. I would not buy it to shoot 20 yards.
I will not argue about you wanting light loads thinking it will help you get used to the gun but I will tell you once you put real loads in the gun, you will come apart at the seams.
Loads that shoot poor groups will never make you a better shot either unless you can steer the boolit. How can you get to be a good shot with poor loads?
Many .22 RF loads scatter so why do you search for a better .22? Do you shoot the poor .22's hoping to shoot a group?
You can make noise or you can hit targets, I prefer to hit targets.
This is what I mean. My Ruger Mark II at 25 yards. 10 shots and the last shot was my fault. 9 shots in one hole. THAT is accuracy.

[MaxEnergy]

your assuming folks use reduced loads to save money. i use reduced loads to plink because they are more fun and plesant to shoot. has nothing to do with cost. just cuz the load is slow dont mean it wont be accurate.

[44man]

your assuming folks use reduced loads to save money. i use reduced loads to plink because they are more fun and plesant to shoot. has nothing to do with cost. just cuz the load is slow dont mean it wont be accurate.
Plinking is fun, it is OK. Light loads are OK but I would change the boolits for it. I would find maybe a much lighter boolit.
When I shoot light loads from the .44 I go to a 240 to 250 gr because the 300 to 330 gr boolits will not shoot good enough to even hit a tin can past 20 yards.
I know the 440 gr I use in the .500 JRH can not be shot at 900 fps.
It is like the .22 when you buy cheap bulk ammo. My friend buys WW and some fail to even go off, then you get all kinds of sounds, crack, pop, etc. it gets disgusting and fun goes away fast because nothing can be hit.
An unstable boolit is worthless.
The question is, what boolit would be stable in a .500 S&W for plinking?
I don't argue about light loads, I argue about monster boolits tried to be pushed way too slow. I seen too many sideways holes in paper.

[MaxEnergy]

I know the 440 gr I use in the .500 JRH can not be shot at 900 fps.
The question is, what boolit would be stable in a .500 S&W for plinking?
I don't argue about light loads, I argue about monster boolits tried to be pushed way too slow. I seen too many sideways holes in paper.

why in the world cant it be shot at 900 fps? this makes no sense. why do you consider a 440 grain bullet a monster?

[44man]

why in the world cant it be shot at 900 fps? this makes no sense. why do you consider a 440 grain bullet a monster?
It just will not be accurate. Never forget twist rates and boolit spin.
It is common for revolver shooters to ignore twist, something a rifle shooter never does.
You need to change the boolit just like a rifle shooter does.
It is and always has been a pure mechanical problem.
The same as a RB muzzle loader with a 1 in 60 to 66" twist, it will not shoot a boolit and a 1 in 28" rate will not shoot a RB.
To expect a revolver to shoot a boolit from 900 fps to 1900 fps escapes all common sense.
They do all "go bang."
Then the amount of lead wasted to plink rubs me wrong when I see how hard it is to find free lead. A .38 is much better.
Now think of the 440 gr in the JRH! It works and if the boolit is made heavier it will not be shot to accuracy because velocity and pressure needs reduced. Heavier boolits need a certain velocity that you will no longer reach. You can go heavier in the S&W because the large case reduces pressure allowing a faster boolit.
Take a 500 gr boolit to 900 fps and I have a better slingshot here.

[Alan]

Miha's 440 Keith shoots great at 900 or so. It also shoots great at 1300 or so. Haven't bothered with full power loads yet. My .500 has yet to shoot a single factory load.

[MaxEnergy]

It just will not be accurate. Never forget twist rates and boolit spin.
It is common for revolver shooters to ignore twist, something a rifle shooter never does.
You need to change the boolit just like a rifle shooter does.
It is and always has been a pure mechanical problem.
The same as a RB muzzle loader with a 1 in 60 to 66" twist, it will not shoot a boolit and a 1 in 28" rate will not shoot a RB.
To expect a revolver to shoot a boolit from 900 fps to 1900 fps escapes all common sense.
They do all "go bang."
Then the amount of lead wasted to plink rubs me wrong when I see how hard it is to find free lead. A .38 is much better.
Now think of the 440 gr in the JRH! It works and if the boolit is made heavier it will not be shot to accuracy because velocity and pressure needs reduced. Heavier boolits need a certain velocity that you will no longer reach. You can go heavier in the S&W because the large case reduces pressure allowing a faster boolit.
Take a 500 gr boolit to 900 fps and I have a better slingshot here.

you are the only person i have encountered on these forums that claims you cannot get good accuracy with a heavy bullet at lower velocities. its just not true. have you tried or do you only use 110-296? just asking

[saz]

If you really want to lighten the recoil on the 500, you should look for a powder that will give you better load density. I LOVE Red Dot, but I wont use it in the 500. Too much room for error. Out of curiosity I worked the 440 Lee with unique based on the data in the Lyman 4th Cast Bullet Handbook and the results were OK, but there are better powders out there to do the same thing. I was a little nervous because 15 grs of unique looks VERY SMALL inside that big case, and a double charge (that large)of unique or red dot I am pretty sure will scatter most revolvers out there. I have used trail boss with the same bullet, and it was fine out to 25 yards but didnt mess with it any more. I have had good luck with SR-4759 and I have heard of others using H-322, 4895, 4198 and varget. You will run out of case capacity before you overload it. John Ross wrote a very good article on loading for the 500 S&W that you should look for. If I happen to find it I'll post it for you.

Like 44Man has said, the 500 is an absolute monster when you load it to its full potential. I dont think that it is needed, but sure like having it!

[Whitworth]

If you really want to lighten the recoil on the 500, you should look for a powder that will give you better load density. I LOVE Red Dot, but I wont use it in the 500. Too much room for error. Out of curiosity I worked the 440 Lee with unique based on the data in the Lyman 4th Cast Bullet Handbook and the results were OK, but there are better powders out there to do the same thing. I was a little nervous because 15 grs of unique looks VERY SMALL inside that big case, and a double charge (that large)of unique or red dot I am pretty sure will scatter most revolvers out there. I have used trail boss with the same bullet, and it was fine out to 25 yards but didnt mess with it any more. I have had good luck with SR-4759 and I have heard of others using H-322, 4895, 4198 and varget. You will run out of case capacity before you overload it. John Ross wrote a very good article on loading for the 500 S&W that you should look for. If I happen to find it I'll post it for you.

Like 44Man has said, the 500 is an absolute monster when you load it to its full potential. I dont think that it is needed, but sure like having it!

I have shot all manner of loads in my .500 Smith and don't find any very abusive, including those ridiculous 700 grain loads. The revolver is bulky and braked which really tones it down IMO.

[44man]

you are the only person i have encountered on these forums that claims you cannot get good accuracy with a heavy bullet at lower velocities. its just not true. have you tried or do you only use 110-296? just asking
Yes, many times over 56 years with revolvers. It is always velocity with twist.
You can see the progression to accuracy as loads are increased and as loads get too heavy accuracy will again fall off.
This is what I mean, the 440 gr from the .500 JRH at 100 yards. Whit took one shot and I took the second shot. The boolit NEEDS 1350 fps.

[saz]

I have shot all manner of loads in my .500 Smith and don't find any very abusive, including those ridiculous 700 grain loads. The revolver is bulky and braked which really tones it down IMO.

I guess I should have added that I am still a rookie when it comes to big bore revolvers. Before last August I have never owned anything larger than my 44mag. I am still getting used to the 500. I only have about 500 rounds through it so far.

From what I have seen Whitworth, you and 44Man have probably already forgotten more than I know about big bore wheelguns. :holysheep

[Whitworth]

I guess I should have added that I am still a rookie when it comes to big bore revolvers. Before last August I have never owned anything larger than my 44mag. I am still getting used to the 500. I only have about 500 rounds through it so far.

From what I have seen Whitworth, you and 44Man have probably already forgotten more than I know about big bore wheelguns. :holysheep

If that's the case, you are way ahead of the curve! Even the big .500 will start feeling like a .38 Special soon (okay, I'm exagerating a little bit)! Soon you too will become numb -- LOL!

I meant no insult!

[44man]

Whit is correct, the gun is just not hard to shoot with proper loads and is as accurate as you can imagine. There is no sense downloading and losing the superb way they shoot.
These are hunting guns first yet are tack drivers with the right loads.
You should learn to shoot the right loads and leave the "pleasant" stuff for smaller guns.
You will reach the point where you will grab the big gun to shoot instead of the .22 or .38. That is no lie, when you can shoot at 100 yards, 200 yards clear to 500 meters, you will forget the 20 yard cans.
If you need super light loads in a gun, you should have never bought it. A .500 S&W is not nor will ever be a .38.

[saz]

I do see what you guys are talking about already. Up until I bought my 500, the heavy load in my 4 5/8" SBH was the Lee 310 moving about 1100fps and it felt stout. I was out on my 4 wheeler with my wife and couple of friends when we stopped to shoot at some rocks at 100-200 yards. I carry my SBH everywhere in AK, she is my woods gun. I started pinging some Lee 310s off the first rock at 100 and I was thinking, "man this thing shoots soft". I thought it was from a little adrenaline from riding and being in a crowd, but it is from shooting that 500. Now when I go to the range I bring my 3 (used to be 2) favorite pistols. My SBH, 1911 and the BFR. The 1911 feels like a .22, the SBH is like a 38 and the 500,is still a 500......

My hunting load that I am settled on right now is a 550gr boolit over 30.7grs 4759 moving at 1275fps. There is room in the case for 32 grs, but that is where the accuracy came in. I am having very good results with this load. Under an inch for 5 shots at 50 yards from the bench. I did work up the Lee 440 with Lil Gun up to just over 1700, but it was still a little too much for me to consistantly shoot- for now. With a little more practice I have no doubt I can master that load. It showed real promise at the top end, I couldnt settle down enough and keep a consistant hold to where it didn't beat my wrists into submission. I'll get it though. I won't give up on this- it's way too fun!

[Alan]

The JR .500 has a 1:10" twist. It will supposedly stabilize a 725gr at 900fps. I don't have that mould, so I haven't tried it. But it is a tack driver w/ Trail Boss, Miha's 440 gr Keith HP, and Cowboy load speeds.

Heh. Can you see someone showing up for a SASS match w/ a BFR .500 and TB loads? 8^0

[Whitworth]

The JR .500 has a 1:10" twist.

1:15 actually....

[44man]

The JR .500 has a 1:10" twist. It will supposedly stabilize a 725gr at 900fps. I don't have that mould, so I haven't tried it. But it is a tack driver w/ Trail Boss, Miha's 440 gr Keith HP, and Cowboy load speeds.

Heh. Can you see someone showing up for a SASS match w/ a BFR .500 and TB loads? 8^0
The BFR in .500 JRH should have a 1 in 15" twist and it will not stabilize a 725 gr boolit.
The larger the boolit, the faster it has to be shot but there is a pressure and velocity limit for any caliber so you just plain run out long before you can find accuracy.
You also need barrel length to reach any kind of velocity.
It is the real world and actual shooting, not using the Greenhill formula that fails 99.9% of the time. It was designed for CANNONS!
Now I get in a lot of trouble over this stuff and I hate to do it anymore so I hope the moderators don't get angry at me.
Can you show 50 yard groups with the cowboy loads?
Don't get angry now! It is not a challenge, it is for me to see. Maybe your load is something I should look at. I do not have that powder to see for myself.
My gun shop just does not have all powders and I need to order 8# from them just to try it.

[warf73]

My gun shop just does not have all powders and I need to order 8# from them just to try it.

Just go down and get the powder 44man if it doesn't shoot for ya I'll pay for shipping to my house.

[44man]

Just go down and get the powder 44man if it doesn't shoot for ya I'll pay for shipping to my house.
I called and they don't have it. I can't afford an 8# keg and their shipping on SS.
I will see if a friend can find some in VA. I only want one pound because all of my other loads are for hunting and will never be changed.
Every thing I shoot all year is the same as I hunt with. Big boomers only cost me about a dime a shot plus retired time worth nothing to me! :p
I just watched some youtube videos with the .500 S&W, did that guy say $2.50 a shot? Can't be true or is it? Has factory ammo gone that high?

[subsonic]

We need to figure out a way to ship powder to each other for instances like this......
Is there a minimum quantity that can go un-declared?

[warf73]

We need to figure out a way to ship powder to each other for instances like this......
Is there a minimum quantity that can go un-declared?

Not that I know of, but have been shipped primers with no hazmat charge via UPS...... I even bought them from a guy off of ebay [smilie=1: hit the buy it now before they could remove the auction.

[subsonic]

Yes, but the $20 you save, could cost you quite a fine and possible jail time.... the post office is not something to play with.

But if you were sending someone ground charcoal for a water filter, that would be OK.

[warf73]

Don't think I would use USPS as they do run stuff threw sniffers. But your right the fine would be large not sure there would be jail time. Unless they consider you a terrorist then the fine would be the least of your worries.

[44man]

We need to figure out a way to ship powder to each other for instances like this......
Is there a minimum quantity that can go un-declared?
Nope! Jails are full but they always find room for a gun nut. :groner:
I miss the old days when a gun was sent in the mail. There was less crime too. Every kid had some kind of gun. Every store had guns and anyone could buy one.
I had a great gun store, Avon gun and tackle in Avon Ohio. I would buy a gun, he would hand it to me and I would pay on it until paid off. No interest at all. We were like friends, not just a customer and an owner trying to get rich.
My first flat top came in the mail from Kleins Sporting Goods in Chicago. I was 18 years old. ( I still to this day, feel the anticipation waiting for it.) $96 and my Mark I was $37.50. A .300 Mark V was $300. I still have my Browning Superposed 20 ga, $300.
Youngsters today have grown into the destruction of our country without notice. Most of you here have no idea how great it was.
Now I weep every time Obama opens his mouth, I am afraid for all of you and your children.

[Alan]

May take a couple of weeks to get to the 50 yard range, and I need to load some more.

This is from John Ross's web page:

Faster 1:10" twist button-rifled barrel—stabilizes bullets up to 725 grains at long range or at lower velocities, and gives deepest penetration. Gun is shipped sighted in for the powerful 500 grain Hornady long-nose factory load.

[Frank]

John Ross also says:

The secret to safely handloading the .500 (or any gun, for that matter) can be expressed in one sentence:
Never use a powder that can create a proof load with the bullet you are using. For example, if you want
my 510 grain hammer bullet at around 1000 FPS, don’t even think of using Bullseye, Unique, Titegroup,
or any other fast-burning pistol powder, where you could accidentally load a double charge and ruin the

So that is another reason why you don't want Red Dot in a .500. You might end up with the trick-or-treat surprise of your life. [smilie=l:

[odfairfaxsub]

oh, just dont double load. simple enough lol

[saz]

John Ross also says:


So that is another reason why you don't want Red Dot in a .500. You might end up with the trick-or-treat surprise of your life. [smilie=l:

My thoughts exactly Frank. Small charges in that big case are a little scary. I tried it once, but never again.