M1A vs HK-91

[Jamesconn]

I am wondering which one to purchase.
I'd like to know the positives and negatives of both
The magazine capacities of both
The availability of parts
Which one is finished better
And your personal experiences

[curator]

Don't have a HK-91 but do have a M1A "loaded." Who cares what the Euro-wussies think or do? The M1A is real American made, serious 7.62X51 rifle with 20 round magazine and customer service. Remember the folks that live or work in the H&K plant can't even own one of the products they make. What's wrong with that? I have shot against the HK-91 and they are accurate rifles but they don't always win. As far as finish, what would you expect from a MILITARY rifle? My Springfield M1A could use a coat of Boiled Linseed Oil but I have resisted putting that on a rilfle that "lives" in Florida. Get a real American rifle. You will never be sorry!

[MtGun44]

HK91 is accurate, reliable, mags cost $3-5 in any quantity you can imagine. Heavy, fairly
hard kicking. The front sight is one of the best on ANY rifle, the rear sight is fair/poor on 100 yd,
superb on 200, 300 and 400, adjustable for windage and elevation, but a bit of a PITA to
adjust, you need either a modified pair of needle nose pliers or a special tool. Trigger pulls are
uniformly worse than most cap pistols, but can be fixed and the PSG1 trigger groups are
very nice. I have a PSG-1 trigger group and the factory HK claw mount and scope, also
superb quality, but fairly expensive.

The gun does some damage to the brass with very violent ejection, dent in the side, minor
damage to the rim, ugly fluting marks from the chamber. Fluting marks hurt nothing, dents
can be fixed by buying the port buffer.

Simple, reliable, accurate and VERY expensive. The Century rebuilds are a
definite step down in receiver quality, but function. The PTRs are much higher
quality receivers, overall excellent guns, and cost much less than an original
HK91.

Bill

[mtgrs737]

Everything Bill says is true about the HK91 rifle, a proven battle rifle to be sure. The M-14 is American all the way and is still prefered by American soldiers for it's hard hitting abilities and is soft shooting by HK91 standards. I have shot both and like each for different reasons, I would suggest you find someone who owns them and ask to fire both or possibly a range that rents guns so that you could decided for yourself. IMHO you could not go wrong with either as they are fine battle rifles but you need to fire them to decide for yourself which is better suited for your uses.

[BruceB]

At one point in time, I simultaneously owned two REAL M-14s, an HK91, an original (1950s) AR10 and a couple of FALs. All were chambered for 7.62 NATO, of course.

Out of that list, my choices for desirability would have the HK91 in DEAD LAST position, and the M-14/M1A in first place. I like the FAL a lot, and the AR-types not so much....but the HK was just miserable in my book.

Do NOT make your choice on the basis of magazine prices. Good M-14 mags cost about $25, FALs about the same. Don't choose an HK because of cheap mags.....

My choice was based on "ergonomics", accuracy, design....you name it. I do NOT like the HK design(s)...can you tell?

[rockrat]

My HK91 will shoot under and inch@100. Does kick and beat up the brass. Like my AR10, don't have an M1A, but do like my Garand.

[Jamesconn]

I already plan on getting a garand but the cartridges are just too big and magazine capacity too small to take the role as assault rifle in my collection.
I also want to purchase a 30-06 bolt gun for hunting and a .50bmg from Anzio ironworks.

Besides some assorted low caliber guns for varmits

And I'm going to get a Mossberg 590A1 for my shotgun not to big in pistols but will purchase the judge a 1911 and maybe a small backup gun.

[DCM]

IMO I would go with the M1A.
I have shot the HKs and do not like them.

As mtgrs737 said your best bet is to actually fire each and see which one YOU like, not what others like.

They are both reliable rifles.

The standard reliable mags for both are 20 Rds.

[Jamesconn]

There is a pistol range that rents guns but thats the only place i know close by and they have 2 or 3.

I will see if i can try them when i go to san antonio or to visit my uncle he probably has both

[waksupi]

The M1 Garand is not an assault rifle. It is a battle rifle.

[Larry Gibson]

Concur with BruceB and others....get the M1A. I have shot lots of M14s, FN/FALs, AR10s and HK91s (courtessy having been a SF Weapons NCO:grin:). The HKs were miserable to shoot (I always ended up with a sore, if not bloody nose. They are very hard on brass, they have lousy sights that are not readily adjustable and the triggers just plain suck. Get the M1A.

Larry Gibson

[Haggway]

I have both, and I would go for my M1A first. Both are reliable and will do their job if I do mine. Like others have stated don't let my point of view make your decesion for you. Try to get your hands on them and do a test drive if possible.

[Mk42gunner]

Get the M1A. I have a lot more experience with real M-14's, but have shot the M1A, FAL, HK-91 and a couple of different manufacturers versions of the AR-10.

The only problems I ever had with M-14's was the rear sight pinion coming loose on well used examples and once (out of about 9 bazillion rounds fired) the extractor flew off of one bolt.

Buy Gov't surplus magazines and all should be well.

Incidentally, seventeen M-14 magazines will fit in a fifty cal ammo can.

Robert

[max range]

M1A would be my choice. The grandson of the M1 Garand. Tough. accurate. Good looking. Its the rifle of choice in our armed forces for ranges beyond the 5.56. An assault rifle (whatever that is) a very adequate home defense weapon, and you can take wild game with it in most states. Did I say good looking?

[stubshaft]

I have owned and shot both. The HK91 is a well made rifle but I didn't care for the sights and charging handle placement. I have kept the M1-A because it fits me better and is more ergonomically comfortable to me.

[fatelvis]

I had a HK 911 and could never get past the fluted chamber marks on the brass. Definately not my first choice, being an avid reloader. Besides, they're overpriced BIGTIME IMHO.

[gew98]

I have owned and shot both. The HK91 is a well made rifle but I didn't care for the sights and charging handle placement. I have kept the M1-A because it fits me better and is more ergonomically comfortable to me.

I too have found the teutonic ergonomics a big detractor with the KK type rifles. The brass banging , sloppy triggers , charging handle way out in nowhere , no bolt hold open , second rate Iron sights , and muzzle heavy.

Not a great fan of the M14 types either as a "stock" '14 almost always needs to be tweaked to get it accurate.
With good built "stock" FAL's I have been very satisfied with their ergonomics and quite acceptable accuracy.

[M1A4ME]

I only shot an H&K once. It just did not fit me. I just could not get comfortable trying to twist my head/neck that far over to get my eye behind the rear sight. After that one trip I never was interested in shooting another one.

[Matthew 25]

You're lucky to have all this good advise.
I've never even held an HK.
I did buy a SOCOM 16 a few months ago. It is easily the toughest and baddest gun I own. With a Leupold 2x scout scope it will shoot 1" (or a little less) groups with Fed. Match ammo. I wouldn't be afraid to hunt deer or elk with it, but it weighs about 3 pounds more than my bolt 308. Side by side with an AR, it'll hang with speed shooting (w/o reloads).
Consider this a strong +1 for the M14 of any configuration.

[shotstring]

I've always considered the HK91s to be the German equivalent of the AK-47, but coming in 2nd place. Next to the AK, they are probably one of the best abuse handling battle rifles out there. A standard 91 is more accurate than the AK, but not as bulletproof. All the other rifles need more tender loving care and cleanliness to function properly.

I've owned 2 HK91s and all the other assault rifles with the exception of the M1, because I hated the weight and it felt like a big club to me more than a rifle. But all my friends that owned examples of all the rifles available (we all worked for the largest distributor of assault weapons in California), of the guys that could REALLY shoot, they picked the M1 hands down. Me, I liked my original belgian FAL which would shoot minute of angle groups with iron sights.

I do regret not buying a bunch of the HK91s that were available to me at $175 each however when they first hit the country. But that is closer to their actual value in my book compared to the ridiculous prices they are commanding now.

[x101airborne]

I still own both, the HK and an M1-A Standard. The HK is cool. Lots of movie advertisement. M1-A is American, sure. But I still own and shoot my my other foreign rifles and HK is still producing the semi 300 win sniper rifles for the German Special Forces. I dont think that one of the oldest weapons manufacturers is going anywhere any time soon. Now my favorite is the M1-A. I cant say one will outshoot the other. I cant shoot irons all that well. I can say that I enjoy the M1-A more. It is more comfortable to shoot, carry and operate. And to tell the truth, I like hearing that "CHING" of the op rod following the bolt forward. Silly I know, but I like hearing it.

[Dan Cash]

I am very old fashioned. Shot the HK on time and had enough of that recoiling son of a gun. I do have an M1 and FNFAL. The M1 is my favorite to shoot and is an adequate battle rifle yet today. The FN is not as comfortable to carry but is a superior fighting weapon. An M!A is on my "gonagetone list."

[milprileb]

I have owned and shot both. The HK91 is a well made rifle but I didn't care for the sights and charging handle placement. I have kept the M1-A because it fits me better and is more ergonomically comfortable to me.

I qualified with M14 in US Army and G3 with West German Army. I have seen the G3 fail in the desert and fail in SE Asia. I was issued a HK 33 once in a classified assignment and its trustworthy but complex and not that accurate.

I know this HK system and its not as accurate as the M14, not does it have the great sights like the M14. The HK 91 has awkward operating features, is bulky and
rugged but its not as reliable, as accurate and user friendly to operate as the M14.

I won't own a G3, HK 91 or 93 or 33. The ergonomics just suck for a infantry rifle.

Make your own choice: my thoughts of military experience with both mirror those who have commented on these same features: you have civilian and military advice to consider.

[milprileb]

I did not mention the FN FAL. Its got everything ergonomically over the M14 for a combat infantry rifle but... it suffers from a barrel and sights that don't do it justice. Its sight radius is another issue that compounds its half great sights. If accuracy counts, the M14 is superior but its not by any means the simple, trustworthy design of the FN FAL.

Owning both, they both are not perfect. For matches I prefer the M14 / M1A. To take into combat, the FN FAL.

[Ickisrulz]

You might consider the LMT 308 MWS.

[SlamFire1]

I qualified with M14 in US Army and G3 with West German Army. I have seen the G3 fail in the desert and fail in SE Asia. I was issued a HK 33 once in a classified assignment and its trustworthy but complex and not that accurate.

I am dismayed to read of the G3 failing. I do see pictures of Pakistani soldiers with the things, for a 308 rifle, I think more countries have made and adopted the HK91 than any other 308. The FAL was purchased by a lot, but I think the HK91 was made by more.

I belive the most important parameter for the HK91/G3 rifles was their ease of production. The designers had the experience of WW2, where entire German armies vanished, with their equipment, into the vastness of Russia. They came out of that war with a changed view point about the lifetime of equipment and soldiers. They decided that it did not make sense to build an expensive rifle that would last 100 years if the lifetime of the German carrying it was 9 months. I believe the whole philosophy was to build rifles faster than they lost them, and I don’t think the HK91 was intended to be rebuilt.

For a rifle designed to be built cheap, it works. It is very simple to take apart, has minimum features. No bolt hold open device, simple cocking mechanism. The sighting system is adequate for a combat weapon, not in the same league as the M1a rear sights with its precise and exacting adjustment of elevation and windage. The designers realized that in a major war soldiers would be not be marksman, at best , they would time to teach recruits how their weapons functioned, and how to clean them. Then they would be shipped off to the front. This was the American experience in WW2 according to a couple of WW2 vets. My uncle had 8 rounds with his M1919 machine gun before he dropped over Normandy, another gentleman had 20 rounds with a carbine then he went second wave in the invasion of Iwo Jima. The latter GI told me he zero’d his carbine in combat! When he left boot, and before he got on his ship, he was given a carbine that he had not fired at all. With cannon fodder like this, simple is good, and the HK sights are simple.

The trigger on a HK91 can be adjusted to an excellent crisp pull.

The M1a is an expensive rifle, a precise rifle, I think it is the best 308 military rifle made.

But the HK91 is fine for its purposes.

[NavyEngineer]

I don't own an M1A, but have fired them often (never had an M4 or M16 on any ship I served in until 2007) and have found them to be reliable and accurate.

I have owned a PTR-91 for several years. Mine has a surplus Hensoldt 4-power scope on it. I also have a .22 conversion kit, as well as a light (blowback, not roller-locked) bolt for use with surplus plastic training ammo, which is still available for around 17 cents a round, and is very accurate out to about 75 yards. I keep some on hand to use when I don't have time to reload.

I believe either one is a great choice.

[Artful]

HK91 / G3 and clones.
The G3 would probably make a good post-SHTF weapon, but they’re full auto and Uncle Sam says you can’t have one. Because he said so and because “he’s the uncle”. Well, you could get one if you sold your house and lived in your car to pay for it, but that’s pretty much the same thing. The good news is that you could get a semi-automatic version like the HK91 or PTR-91 (and they’re black, a major improvement on the original CETME design). The major complaint about this design is that it has stuff like a fluted chamber and a roller-delayed blowback action, making it too exotic for a viable SHTF weapon, Also rust can be a problem in wet climates. This gun was a pattern for the M16 accessory line - Yes an HK poster was on the wall of COLT when they were designing the M16 addon barbie parts. The other major drawback reported about this German improvement on the CETME design is that it’s not an M1A or a FAL.
Actually the Germans ordered FN FALs as the G1 but the Belgians refused to deliver more after the initial order to their ex-uninvited house guests.

FN FAL / STG58 / L1A1 / T-48 Battle Rifle
- Right arm of the Free World during Cold war era used by over 90 countries.
20 round and 30 round mags available look for the aluminum ones.
Build it your self capable with very limited resources - not quite as easy as an AR as you do have to headspace it, but not too far off either.

Two verisons, Metric used by majority of the world and Inch pattern used by UK, Aussie's, and Canuk's. You can find parts/kits/Rifles from many countries from Africa to South America to USA. In models with heavy barrel to light weight short barrel/ folding stock Para trooper models.

2 MOA or under rifle generally on surplus ammo with high reliabilty and adjustable gas sytem along with soft recoil and "used to be" inexpensive purchase price and build- able to have optic's added without major problems and low to the bore, basic iron sights included (think early model of AR sights vs A2 version on M14 type rifle).

The FAL is the freemason of rifles. Though you don’t run into them often, they’re reported to be everywhere and secretly control the world of guns. This explains why FAL owners tend to worship their rifles, often converting their gun cabinets into FAL shrines and performing bizarre candlelit rituals before their rifle, which only the initiated understand. For the uninitiated, the upside is that the FAL can be found in black furniture and has hi-cap magazines. FAL owners tend to taunt AR owners about their “poodle shooter” calibers, touting the ability of the .308 to penetrate such obstacles as trees. While this puzzles some, I suspect that the members of the FAL cult may have some mysterious knowledge that common gun owners do not. Perhaps when the SHTF and hordes of trees rise up to destroy the human race we will all wish we had a FAL.

M1A/M14 semi
- US military battle rifle - when tuned by a good Armory staff you can shoot under 1 MOA with match ammo. 20 round mags generally offered - Precision Iron sights included not as friendly to mounting a scope. I think of these to be made into marksman/sniper rifles and not abuse as I would a FAL. Advantage in use in CMP matches.

The M1A is the ultimate SHTF rifle. We know this because M1A owners remind us of this constantly. Like the FAL, the M1A is capable of stopping a tree in its tracks. When the hordes of killer trees take the rest of us, FAL and M1A owners will likely be the only ones left to hash out who has the better rifle. Of course, we know the answer (because M1A owners remind us of it constantly). The M1A not only has superior penetration, it is extremely accurate at distance. Therefore, when the hordes of killer trees have all been mowed down, FAL owners will fall quickly to the hordes of paper silhouette targets come to avenge their woodland brethren. The M1A owners will stop the avenging targets with neat, 1 MOA groups center mass at 600 yards. At that point, the standard M1A owners will have to hash out which is the better gun with the SOCOM 16 owners to determine who will inherit the earth. A glaring design error in the M1A is that it’s not black, which is why they invented the SOCOM.

Clunky, heavy, and overpowered. Essentially a Garand tarted up with a removable magazine, in a half-baked attempt to adapt a 19th century rifle design philosophy to the mid-20th century. Most often named as favorite infantry rifle by people who never had to hump a 10-pound wood-stocked rifle with lots of sharp protrusions and no collapsible anything on a three day exercise, or try to make it through a firefight with the standard battle load of five 20-round magazines.

And for the record I have a two FALs, one M1A, and one HK91.

[CollinLeon]

I'm of the opinion that you can't go wrong with the classics. That's why I bought an M1A instead of an AR10. Not that I have anything against AR15s -- I have one -- but it's just not as classic as an M1, M1A, or M14.

[Idaho Sharpshooter]

Having owned all of them at one time or the other, I have settled in with a DPMS heavy fluted 24" barrel and MagPul magazines. It shoots sub-moa out to 300yds (as far as I have shot to date) with the BHA 168gr Match Ammunition. A 2-3lb Jewell trigger is on order.

HK's eat brass, and are not very accurate, as a rule. The scope set up is beyond rinky-dink.
That said, I do own two CETME's and about eighty magazines for them. They are for spares, if I have more people at my house than battle rifles.

The M1A/M14's are a semi-successful attempt to make a Garand an MBR.

FN's are problematic to get parts for, and when you do they are spendy.

The AR-10 platform has the most potential for accuracy, dependability, and cost-effectiveness, IMHO. Easy to mount a scope or BUIS on, and it is what the Brits are using for sniper rifles. We should be too.

Rich

[Artful]

Rich, we are using M110 it's an AR10 in SOCOM drag.
http://airbornecombatengineer.typepad.com/photos/weapons_fireams/m110incase.jpg
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/M110_Semi-Automatic_Sniper_System

Can't agree as to dependability of AR-10/AR16/M16 compared to old school FAL or M14 or G3 in all environments - Loved my HK91 until I hit Arizona dust - Now using FAL's - Have several AR's and used to shoot 3 gun with them - when all is clean works well - one dust devel will just about shut down the shooting line.