Rolling Block Accuracy

[43spanish]

Well, I finally loaded some black powder cartridges for my .43 Spanish rifle; 80gr 2f Goex under a 403gr soft lead bullet. The first three shots at fifty yards were within a 3.25" group, but were low and off the target. I then worked on raising the point of impact, but my 3 shot groups got wider and wider. I ran a dry rag thru the bore after each string of 3. I also noticed that the forestock had shifted forward slightly leaving a gap between the rear of the forestock and the front of the receiver. It was stuck rather tightly in this position. What do you suppose caused accuracy to diminish? Must I clean the bore better? Would the forestock wedging in a forward position on the barrel impact accuracy? I saw some good potential in that first group.

[Don McDowell]

Might have filled the bore with lead.

[43spanish]

Too soft lead? It is real soft. Maybe I should add a few wheel weights. What's best way to remove lead from barrel?

[Don McDowell]

Too soft lead? It is real soft. Maybe I should add a few wheel weights. What's best way to remove lead from barrel?
Most likely bullet was to small, unless you damaged the base during loading process, or crimped to hard. Some times oil like Kroil left in the bore will cause the bullet to strip lead.
Also if there's some old leading in there it'll rip a chunk off of everybullet that goes by.
Maybe not the best way to remove lead but my preferred method is to push a flannel patch wet with puregum spirits of turpentine , on a jag thru the barrel, the follow with a couple of dries and then wet again until they come out nice and shiny clean.

[bigted]

don is rite on the money with the turpintine. it works wonderfully and the only thing id add is that for stuborn packed in lead i swashed the bore with a fairly lose patch soaked with turpintine several times till the bore was dripping with the stuff and allowed it to set over nite and had to repeat this for a couple nites before i got all the lead out of one of my lead miners.

definetly slug your barrel with an oversize pure lead slug with copious amounts of greese to make sure you get a true reading from the lead slug so you can make a good judgment for your final boolit diameter and soft boolit metal at that.

ensure that your lube is up to the task of black powder...if there is any petrolium product in your lube....you will rue the day you shot that stuff with black powder. also the in-between shots on my rifles use a spit wad thru a couple times followed with a couple dry clean patchs then shoot another and repeat for best accuracy.

[Dan Cash]

Mega plus +++++++++++ on the Turpentine. Get the bore wet with it and follow with tight patches. I don't understand the science behind it but if the bore is leaded, you will get great long slivers to slide out of the bore. The process is relatively quick and painless.

[Ed in North Texas]

Turpentine - interesting. Wonder if other solvents might also work. My inclination would be to use Kroil, as I suspect Kroil probably works about as well as the Turps, and I always have Kroil around. We do have Turpentine, in my wife's oil paint stuff. If I have leading in the future, I'll try to remember to try the Turpentine.

[Nobade]

What about hard fouling buildup? What did the bore feel like when you cleaned it? Unless you used good BP lube with a bullet designed for it and somehow kept the bore wet (blowtubing, wipe between shots, etc.. there's a good chance of hard fouling building up near the muzzle. That just kills accuracy until it's removed. It also makes the lead build up, as it tears up the bullets as they pass.

[43spanish]

Thanks to all for the posts. I will get some pure turpentine. The fouling was hard; I think that is part of the reason for inaccuracy. The bullet I use is the RCBS .44-370. It has grooves, but maybe I should also be using a grease wad under the bullet. I use the DGL lube from Buffalo Arms....pan lube the bullets.

[Chicken Thief]

No mention of what lube you're running!
What is it?
Do you use an overpowder wad?
Do you use a lube cookie?


You using a blow tube?

I can shoot my Mauser 71/84, wich is roughly the same, all day and only swipe 2-3 dry patches to get it clean at the end.

Keeping the crud/grime/slag/soot what ever it's called soft is paramount.
Good lube (and enough of it!) will aid to that, but moisture is a must.
Less huffing and puffing at low temps (higher humidity), but high dry summer might need 5-6 good gulbs of moisted air.


PS: the "pro's" wipe between shots, and in essence every shot if the first.

[saint_iverson]

Goex is good stuff, maybe not the best though. What about trailboss or shockeys gold? I've had alot less fouling with shockey's. As I recall its one for one, but do your own looking.

As far as accuracy, my gut would say proper sized boolit for the bbl. Makes sense that an increased load would increase the "rattle" if the diameter of the drive rings weren't large enough to make full and consistant contact.

[Don McDowell]

I shot that same bullet in the 43 egyptian with SPG lube. Cast from 20-1 it would drop out of the mould just at groove diameter of the old bugger, but it would shoot fair.
I've been intending to get a bunch of those lubed and sized to run thru the 44-77, but haven't got to them yet.

[43spanish]

Goex is good stuff, maybe not the best though. What about trailboss or shockeys gold? I've had alot less fouling with shockey's. As I recall its one for one, but do your own looking.

As far as accuracy, my gut would say proper sized boolit for the bbl. Makes sense that an increased load would increase the "rattle" if the diameter of the drive rings weren't large enough to make full and consistant contact.

I think the inherent accuracy is there because the first three shots grouped just over three inches. So there's potential. It's just that the more I shot, the wider the groups got.

[43spanish]

No mention of what lube you're running!
What is it?
Do you use an overpowder wad?
Do you use a lube cookie?


You using a blow tube?

I can shoot my Mauser 71/84, wich is roughly the same, all day and only swipe 2-3 dry patches to get it clean at the end.

Keeping the crud/grime/slag/soot what ever it's called soft is paramount.
Good lube (and enough of it!) will aid to that, but moisture is a must.
Less huffing and puffing at low temps (higher humidity), but high dry summer might need 5-6 good gulbs of moisted air.


PS: the "pro's" wipe between shots, and in essence every shot if the first.

I use a vege fiber overpowder wad. I don't use a lube cookie...yet. What is a blow tube? What about running a wet solvent patch down the barrel between shots?

[Don McDowell]

If you run a 10% ballistol -water mix that makes a decent wiping solution.

[Nobade]

I use a vege fiber overpowder wad. I don't use a lube cookie...yet. What is a blow tube? What about running a wet solvent patch down the barrel between shots?

A blow tube is basically a cartridge case with a hose barb in the back to take a plastic tube you blow through. Insert it in the chamber after the shot, and blow three or four or whatever it takes deep breaths through it. The moisture in your breath keeps the fouling soft and as long as it's not 100+ deg. and more than 20% humidity you can normally shoot as long as you like without the hard fouling building up.

You can wet patch after every shot, I do that with my muzzle loaders since blowing through them doesn't work. That works great for the utmost in accuracy but is time consuming for just fun shooting.

Just FYI, I shoot a 1879 Argentinian carbine sometime. Bullets are the Lyman #446410 designed for the 11mm Mauser. They cast out at .447", and a fired case in my rifle takes a .443" bullet so I size them there. I found out that 77gr. of KIK FFg loaded with a droptube will fill the case to the point the bullet, hand seated, will just touch the rifling. I dip lube the bullets with Pearl Lube (just dip in molten lube and let dry) and cut the excess off with a unprimed case. Push the bullet back out with a little punch or allen wrench. A milk carton wad on top of the powder seated with a pencil, bullet hand seated, and it's good to go. I never use any reloading dies with these cases, just decap, clean, and they're ready to go again. This little carbine shoots about 4 inch groups at 100 yards regularly, which I think is fine keeping in mind the very crude sights and 25 pound trigger pull. And by using a blowtube, I can shoot as long as the ammo lasts with no fouling buildup and an easy 2 patch cleanup afterward.

Your rifle is doubtless different and there are a thousand ways to get where you want to be shooting black powder cartridge rifles, but this is just the way I do it and it works for me. The key is to keep that fouling soft with moisture from the lube and your breath, or wet patches and it will perform well for you.

[Chicken Thief]

A case that fits the caliber so it seals the chamber.
I hard solder a 32ACP or the tip of a 223 case over the primer hole and drill through both cases so air can pass.
And a piece of tubing.

That's it:
http://i295.photobucket.com/albums/mm153/Chickenthief/Skydning/Til%20andre/R0010755.jpg

[bigted]

please take note of the short tubes attached. my first was rather long and the moisture condensed before i could blow it into the rifle....under a foot is ideal.

[43spanish]

So petroleum based oils make black powder fouling hard. I use modern oil in the bore after cleaning it. I suppose it contains petroleum products. Is it recommended to wipe the bore with something to remove the oil before firing the first shot?

[Don McDowell]

Yes always a good idea to run a dry patch down the tube before shooting. Sometimes it can help to keep leading and fouling down in hot weather to run a patch with T/C Borebutter on it thru before the first shot.

[Chicken Thief]

Nah.

In competitions you are allowed a fouling shot.
In a barrel the boolit is a svage/100% fit and will swipe out what you had in before the fouling hits.
The problem is petroleum based lube, and that will take you here:
http://i295.photobucket.com/albums/mm153/Chickenthief/Blandet/****creekpaddlestore.jpg

[43spanish]

Funny. I never saw the paddle store on the way up the creek. Hmmm.

[Chicken Thief]

Thats why you did'nt go that far right?

[43spanish]

Ya, decided to ask questions. I tend to take forums like this for granted, but it wasn't too many years ago there was not such easy access to such a wealth of knowledge and experience.