Petroleum based oils & M/Ls

[subsonic]

I have read over and over not to use petroleum based oils or lubricants in the bore of a traditional muzzleloader.

Well, bore butter doesn't protect from rust. I just spent the past 45 minutes hopefully saving the barrel on my step son's GPR using JB bore paste to remove a light layer of rust that spanned from the breach to 3/4 the way up the bore. It is rust free and shiny now, but I can still feel some slight drag in the bore where I beleive there is still some pitting that I can't see.

I want to avoid issues like this in the future, so I want to put some actual oil in the bore for short term storage. What are the odds that some break-free CLP will cause trouble in the barrel with the powder or the bore butter on our cloth patches?

We use 777 in this rifle exclusively, but I'm thinking about switching to goex or some other real BP. It surely cannot be more corrosive or difficult to clean up after!

The action (trigger) of my Encore was full of rust and the breach face has been pitted by 777 also. Less corrosive would not be a selling point of this powder for me.

[troy_mclure]

for storage i always use real gun oil. i just clean very well before i shoot.

in my cap & ball revolver i have to keep the cylinder well oiled or it will rust in 1 day. no black powder lubes/rust preventatives do a thing for it.

[DIRT Farmer]

In my tradationals I use (gasp) WD40 for shhort term lube. The longest I store is normaly less than a month though before being used. I have used WD 40 and scotch brite pads for cleaning up a find that has a salvagable barrel.

[frontier gander]

clp is a good lube.

Barricade, RIG, montana xtreme gun oil, these are all good quality oils.

Natural or petro, you always remove it prior to shooting so there is no problem.

[Ragnarok]

Not supposed to lube patches and bullets with petroleum based lubes for the shooting part.

That said..I have used stuff like petroleum jelly and white lithium based grease for percussian revolvers and it works fine.

As far as cleaning and storage lube..the modern petroleum stuff is the way to go.

[stubshaft]

I'm surprised that you had problems with bore butter subsonic. I have used it for years as a long term protectant in my ML's. I clean the bore with hot soap and water and dry it and apply a heavy coat of it while the barrel is still hot. I also coat the outside of the barrel with it and have not had any problems (knock on wood )yet.

[waksupi]

I would keep scrubbing a bit more. When I tried BB, it really built up bad in the barrels, and was a real pain in the butt to get completely out of the bore.

[Bullet Caster]

In another thread it was suggested to use a light coat of LLA to prevent rust. I haven't tried this yet but it does offer merit. How would LLA affect the shooting of BP? What would you suggest, Waksupi? I know you are the man when it comes to muzzleloaders with about 10 tons more experiance than I. BC

[excess650]

I clean my MLers with soapy water, a few dry patches, and then shoot WD40 down the barrel follow with a patch and make sure I got enough in there to squirt out the touch hole, and store muzzle down. The WD40 is to displace water. Storing it muzzle down (with a patch in the muzzle ) ensures that the excess WD40 comes out the muzzle rather than the touch hole or breech were it would soak into the wood. Prior to shooting I run a dry patch. My flinters always go off the first try without flashing the pan first.

I feel sorry for the folks who don't have access to REAL BLACKPOWDER. Its easy to clean (soap and water), has no shelf life if stored properly, and is the only propellant that should go in a flintlock.

Pellets are a gimmick and the substitutes have been foisted upon the shooting public by insurance companies.

[Geraldo]

I have used gun oil for the last thirty years. No rust, no problems. "Petroleum is bad" is marketing hype.

[firefly1957]

I think it is your (stepson's) cleaning procedure that caused the rust Regardless of oil I have had rust when not completely cleaning Muzzle loaders Pyrodex seemed the worst for me I have only used it and black powder none of the newer substitutes.

I know some say no petroleum products in a muzzle loader but I have always used them since I started muzzle loading in the early 1970's.

A few years ago I got a very good buy at a garage sale of a Thompson Center Muzzle loader it took a couple hours to clean the bore of rust but it had no pits and shot well after it was cleaned up. The owner only used pellets and cleaned it with Hoppes #9 then oiled. I tried to talk him into learning more about muzzle loading but he was unwilling .

[Tatume]

I'm surprised that you had problems with bore butter subsonic. I have used it for years as a long term protectant in my ML's. ... I also coat the outside of the barrel with it and have not had any problems (knock on wood )yet.

+1 I've been using T/C Bore Butter and Ox-Yoke Wonder Lube for years, just as Stubshaft describes. They work beautifully, if the gun is completely clean when the lube is applied. And Hodgdon Triple Seven is very easy to clean.

Back to the original question, many times I've heard that using any petroleum in a bore will cause carbon to be baked onto the bore. But then I've heard many of the same people recommend Ballistol or WD 40, both of which are petroleum products. I'm in the middle. I shoot with non-petroleum lubes, such as T/C or Ox-Yoke Bore Butter, but I use a patch with WD 40 or Ballistol to be sure no water remains in my bore when I finish cleaning. I finish the job with Bore Butter, and my bores are all bright and shiney.

[405]

I have used the method that stubshaft described for 43 years, have never rusted or damaged a muzzleloader. Short term storage I use WD40 or LPS 1. For longer term I use CLP. Agree that the problem was caused by the initial cleaning/oiling method- or lack of it!. Also, most BP sub powders are as bad as and many are worse than real BP in causing corrosion.

[451 Pete]

subsonic,
About 30 years or more back I ran into the same problem using Bore Butter for ml rifle storage. Maybe I didn't get the bore completely dry, I don't know, but it is a water base and water makes rust on metal.

Petrolium based products don't work well for projectile lubes because they will form a kind of tar substance in your bore when shot with black powder. I don't know if this is true with all the synthetic powders because I stopped shooting those a long time ago and now only use black powder in my guns.

Some of my rifles that I shootr are very old and original parts cannot be replaced so this is what works for me. I use only water soluable products for projectile lubricants when shooting a muzzle loader and use only a good water displacing oil or grease for storage, after cleaning.

My preferences are Ballistol, Clenzoil or if it is to be stored for a long time, Rig. I have found that these all will work and do not dry out. You clean them out of the barrel when the rifle is to be shot again and put them back into the bore when you are done. Additionally after a gun is shot, cleaned and oiled it is checked again a couple of days later just to make sure I did not miss anything.

This is a bit more work but I have the peace of mind that everything will be the same as I left it , with no suprises when I take the gun back out again .

Hope this helps ..... Pete:coffee:

[Boerrancher]

I have never shot triple 7, have shot a bit of Pyrodex, and gave up on it and went back to true black, except for my inline and I use pyrodex pellets in it, and haven't shot it in almost 4 years now. I can after shooting completely clean my 50 cal's in about 15 min each with Hot water soap, and then patches with WD40 until they are clean. The touch hole liner or nipples are wiped inside and out with it. I do the same thing with my cap and ball revolver. I have never had anything rust. After about 2 weeks or when I think about it next, I run another patch down the bore and make sure it comes out clean. If I don't have WD40 I use RemOil which I hate. I don't like anything with DuPont Teflon in my bore, as it always takes a bunch of scrubbing with dry patches or 3 or 4 shots to return to the POA. I don't know why Teflon does this but I have never had my guns shot POA after Remoil like they do with WD40. My Cap and ball revolver sat packed away for 20 years just being cleaned with soap, water, and WD40. When I found and unpacked it several months ago I was expecting to find lots of rust, and when I opened the box I found a pristine gun ready to be fired. Bottom line use the KISS principle for your Holy Black shooters. The fancy expensive stuff is not necessary. They are like most fishing lures, made to catch fishermen and not fish.

Best wishes,

Joe

[Maven]

subsonic, I too have learned not to use Bore Butter or its clones as a bore or rust preservative. Rather, I use liberal doses of WD-40 + a patch soaked in it after cleaning my bores with warm soapy water followed by a flush with clean, warm water. The next day I run more patches soaked with WD-40 + ATF down bore and then store the gun with the bbl. down. While Ballistol is good, the price of ATF, WD-40, Marvel Mystery Oil, or even Hoppes #9 is much more reasonable. prior to firing, I remove all traces of "oil" with a few dry patches and haven't had a problem with rust, poor performance, etc. Rust formation apparently has much to do with ambient humidity, latent moisture in the bbl., especially the breech, and not removing all powder fouling from the bbl., particularly from the breech, than using a petroleum based product. (Don't ask....!)

[shdwlkr]

Well I have used Hoppe's #9 and kroil for decades. I clean my muzzle loader first with hoppe's #9 and with boiling soapy water then use the kroil.
I have used all kinds of powder because it was what I could find and had no bad luck so far.
I only have 9-10 black powder firearms so I am only learning how to use them going on 45 years so I don't know everything yet but I am working on it.

[subsonic]

Thanks guys. It has the CLP init now. We are going to shoot it this afternoon at his YHEC meeting and see if it still shoots ok. I have my doubts... A dry patch will feel some rough spots.

What is a better patch lube than BB? I am not afraid to make my own if I can get the ingredients.

I have access to real BP, even have a couple of choices of brand since Grafs is 5min from my house and the Mexico warehouse is less than 2hrs away. After this 777 is gone we're gonna switch. But I have about 1 1/4 cans of 777 on hand.

[winelover]

Interesting thread. I clean like most of you do. However, I often wondered how often did they clean their muzzleloaders in the olden days? What petroleum based product was even available? I doubt that they cleaned with hot, soapy water after using their firearms, especially those involved in the fur trade. After all, their lives literally depended on their weapons.

Winelover

[Boerrancher]

Winelover,

The water doesn't have to be hot or even warm it just makes it a bit easier. A stream or pool of water, some cloth patches, a bit of elbow grease, and then a coat of a natural oil like bear or mink oil as a rust preventive on a patch and run down the bore.

Best wishes,

Joe

[Underclocked]

I would suggest a product like Eezox for bore protection in a traditional rifle. It dries to a thin film and should not interfere with ignition. Test have shown it to be a great rust inhibitor. http://www.warrencustomoutdoor.com/pl-eezox.html#eezox

Just make sure the barrel is thoroughly dry after cleaning before applying the Eezox.

Please try some Swiss powder from Graf's. I like the 3f grade in some of my inlines and I'm sure it will perform very well in that GPR. Might check to see if they have an extra nipple for the rifle while you are there. Everyone should have an extra nipple. :)

[waksupi]

For patch lube, try Moose Milk. One part water soluble oil, or Ballistol, and 7-10 parts water. Experiment a bit, see what mixture works best in your climate. Last shot loads as easy as the first shot.

[Hanshi]

There is no reason why you CAN'T use petro products in an ML. I've used petro based oils for decades with no problems. Caveate; just be sure to swab out the bore and flash channel before you shoot. That's it!

[waksupi]

In another thread it was suggested to use a light coat of LLA to prevent rust. I haven't tried this yet but it does offer merit. How would LLA affect the shooting of BP? What would you suggest, Waksupi? I know you are the man when it comes to muzzleloaders with about 10 tons more experiance than I. BC


Actually, I just use Ed's Red for bore preservation. However, I live in an area with very low humidity. If you use it in a damper environment, I would be sure to add the lanolin in the formula. I put lanolin in when I make it.

[excess650]

[QUOTE=subsonic;1554921] <snip>What is a better patch lube than BB? I am not afraid to make my own if I can get the ingredients.<snip>QUOTE]

When I first started shooting BP I used only Crisco. I've used lots of things including Hoppes #9+, water soluable oil mixtures, mutton tallow and besswax, and mink oil. I prefer mink oil for hunting as it doesn't freeze, or dry out.

I've used Dexron III atf and Mobil 1 full synthetic mixed with beeswax and anhydrous lanolin as BPCRS lube and it worked great!

[405]

Thanks guys. It has the CLP init now. We are going to shoot it this afternoon at his YHEC meeting and see if it still shoots ok. I have my doubts... A dry patch will feel some rough spots.

What is a better patch lube than BB? I am not afraid to make my own if I can get the ingredients.

I have access to real BP, even have a couple of choices of brand since Grafs is 5min from my house and the Mexico warehouse is less than 2hrs away. After this 777 is gone we're gonna switch. But I have about 1 1/4 cans of 777 on hand.

Oh my word! Grafs 5 minutes away!
Get some Wano BP in whichever granulation 2F or 3F. Being that close and as inexpensive as it is- mercy!!! Grafs Wano is all I've been shooting in my MLs the last couple of years. Wano BP has worked very well for me. It's a German powder that I think uses alder charcoal.... after all, alder charcoal was THE rage among BPCR and ML "insiders" just a few years ago :).

As far as patch lube? May depend on humidity. I've tried about everything. Actually started lubing patches with moose milk in the late 60s. Like everyone else got caught up in the latest rage or magic potion of the month- so tried them all. But about the only thing I use now is moose milk- the Ballistol/water mix.

[Boerrancher]

well it is a calm 40 degrees so here in a bit I am going to play some more with my 50/50 blend of bee's wax and bear grease as a patch lube. Normally I use spit patches, but have used the bear grease before for deer hunting where the gun may stay loaded for a few days. I have not used it to see if it works well for my squirrel load. After I am done shooting and have my gun cleaned up, I will post how well it did on the squirrel target.

Best wishes,

Joe

[longbow]

I don't shoot much BP anymore but used to in both muzzleloader and cartridge guns. I have always used petroleum based oils after cleaning with no problems at all.

I cannot see how the small amount of oil left in the bore after running a patch through could be a problem. It certainly hasn't been for me anyway.

Also, having said that, I used Valvoline PB wheelbearing grease for patch lube for years and also for GG boolits in my .45-70 using real BP. Never had tar like fouling. I tried a variety of lubes in both muzzleloader and cartridge guns but the Valvoline wheelbearing grease worked very well for me. I don't think it is available anymore but is a clear amber grease.

+1 on what Maven says too. I use hot soapy water first then dry patches, let the barrel sit a bit while still warm then run a few patches soaked with WD40 and ATF down to coat the bore. Never had rust and never had problems with fouling doing this.

If you are worried about petroleum oils there a number of suitable animal or vegetable based lubes/preservatives available just do a search of the Boolit Lube forum and look at lube recipes.

FWIW

Longbow

[waksupi]

It seems to me that doing an initial flush with cold water, cleans the barrel faster. Hot water sometimes appears to set the fouling a bit harder.

[mooman76]

It seems to me that doing an initial flush with cold water, cleans the barrel faster. Hot water sometimes appears to set the fouling a bit harder.

I've heard some ol timers say that's the way to do it.

[izzyjoe]

the water does'nt have to hot, i've cleaned mine several times at deer camp with creek water, work's fine. i did not know that about Teflon oil's like Remoil, that explain's a problem i had a few years back. thanks Boerrancher

[subsonic]

Oh my word! Grafs 5 minutes away!
Get some Wano BP in whichever granulation 2F or 3F. Being that close and as inexpensive as it is- mercy!!!

My wife is no where near as exited as you are that I'm this close to Graf's.:p

The store right by me only keeps Goex on hand because of a quantity limit on BP on the shelf from the local fire department. But they can get other brands from the warehouse in a few days as needed.

Is Wano the Graf brand BP?

[curator]

Old timers had access to real un-salted animal grease/oils which preented rust and nutralized black powder douling. I agree that the black powder substitutes, Pyrodex, to be particular, are actually more corrosive than real black powder. At my museum where we maintain 30+ muzzle loading replica muskets, we clean with ordinary water (H2O) and once dry treat with a mixture of 1/3 Acetone/ 1/3 Mineral Sprits/ 1/4 Automotive ATF. This absolutely prevents "after-rust" and keeps the guns in good contition until the next re-enactment.

[451 Pete]

subsonic,
No, Wano, Swiss, Goex and Diamondback are manufacturers of black powder , Graf is a distributor.

hope this helps .... Pete

[subsonic]

There is (or was) a "Grafs" brand of BP that was made for them by one of the major mfrs and was cheaper than the name brand version.

[405]

My wife is no where near as exited as you are that I'm this close to Graf's.:p

The store right by me only keeps Goex on hand because of a quantity limit on BP on the shelf from the local fire department. But they can get other brands from the warehouse in a few days as needed.

Is Wano the Graf brand BP?

Yes, Graf brand is Wano.

[subsonic]

Thought so. Thank you!

[451 Pete]

Yes, Graf brand is Wano.

Thats interesting, sorry I have never seen that labeling before..... Evidently Wano makes it, Schuetzen imports it and Graf has thier name and label put on it. I have seen and used the same powder with it labeled as being Schuetzen Powder down at Friendship. My mistake.
thanks .... Pete

[subsonic]

Just looked on the graf website. Seems both Shuetzen and Graf brand are on sale for $12.99 right now.

Guess I better gets me some!:coffee::D

[Fly]

waksupi what's your thoughts of using mink oil?

Fly:coffeecom

[waksupi]

waksupi what's your thoughts of using mink oil?

Fly:coffeecom

I can see no problem with it. I have never used it myself. As long as there are no corrosive additives in it, it should be good. If using commercial preparations, I would check the label. I think most any natural animal oils should be good.
Old timers really liked skunk oil for some reason. I don't know why, unless it is a high yield oil when rendered. I'm sure it would be a nice light oil to use.
Raccoon oil would also be a very good light oil. It was said that a single drop of raccoon oil on a buffalo robe, would spread out and completely soak it after a short time.
I tried whale oil years ago for patch lube, and quickly came to dislike it. It fouled the bore in very few shots, and smouldering patches were a problem, something to be avoided at all costs in this dry forest area.

[subsonic]

Chris shot the GPR yesterday and it seems to still shoot at least decently still. I did not get a chance to shoot it myself and really eliminate variables to thoroughly test it. It was on paper @ 50yds...

[waksupi]

I got curious about skunk oil, so looked up other uses.

Skunk oil was used by the Native Americans as a healing balm or as a liniment. When rendered from the glands, over a low heat, it has the consistency of an SAE10 motor oil and the feel of coal oil when applied to the skin. It gives a warming sensation as a mild liniment would. The early explorers and fur buyers, especially in Canada, found that the oil was a very useful addition to their medical kits and paid the natives a premium price for it.

Around the year 1900, the state of Maine produced about 25,000 gallons of the oil annually which sold for about $4/gallon.

The most commonly touted use for skunk oil is to relieve or cure the common cold. Proponents say that rubbing skunk oil balm on a person's chest will cure a cold as quickly as possible.

Skunk oil liniment is also used as a moisturizer to cure dry and chapped skin. Because skunk oil is essentially grease, it penetrates the skin a small amount at a time. It also forms a protective barrier to keep cool or dry air from doing further damage or irritation to the skin.

[Fly]

Man that's some GREAT stuff.

Fly (Skunk oil) Mmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm

[405]

Thats interesting, sorry I have never seen that labeling before..... Evidently Wano makes it, Schuetzen imports it and Graf has thier name and label put on it. I have seen and used the same powder with it labeled as being Schuetzen Powder down at Friendship. My mistake.
thanks .... Pete

Hey, no problem. Matter of fact clarification is always good! I should have been clearer about Graf powder in the first post.

[gutthooked]

corrosive x or G96 for me to protect all of my guns

[451whitworth]

for patch lube, Track of the Wolf mink oil is what i use for hunting along with Swiss blackpowder. when target shooting i use the oily patch lubes and Goex is easier on the wallet. i use real gun oil on any carbon steel ML barrel and store muzzle down. i use contact cleaner to flush the breech and wipe out the barrel before loading and never have a fail to fire.

[725]

I do alot of ML's and usually scrub 'em out with a water based cleaner (moose milk, windex, Murphy's oil soap & water, or whatever I have around), dry patch, pull the nipple, and follow up with some kind of oil (PB Blaster, Kroil, WD-40, Ed's Red, etc.) I leave plenty to work into the threaded breech and chase out the bolister with a pipe cleaner. Clean the nipple. Mine stay pretty well oiled until I dry patch them prior to shooting. Never a rust problem.

[Boerrancher]

I have used Graf's Brand powder for years in cartridges and the front stuffers. I Love it. I have used Goex, and Swiss, but couldn't tell any difference in the way any of my guns shot any of them. Granulation had more to do with accuracy and speed more so than brand of powder, but that is just what I determined it to be with my guns. Others results may vary. I have no complaints with the way it shoots. I know that in my 50 cals the graf's 2f shoots well enough that if I do what I am suppose to I can hit a squirrel in the head every time at normal squirrel hunting distances, which is one ragged hole at 30 yards.

I am curious as to what Waksupi thoughts are as well on mink oil. Now I use bear grease mixed with bees wax sometimes and have never had any problems. Also so far it seems to shoot exactly like my spit patches do. Once I run out of bear grease I will switch to a mink oil and bees wax blend. I have read in the history books the early explorers would use mink oil or bear grease not only as a patch lube but also as a preserving/cleaning oil.

Best wishes,

Joe

[waksupi]

I am curious as to what Waksupi thoughts are as well on mink oil.

Best wishes,

Joe


Scroll down, Joe! :mrgreen:

[Alan]

Thanks guys. It has the CLP init now. We are going to shoot it this afternoon at his YHEC meeting and see if it still shoots ok. I have my doubts... A dry patch will feel some rough spots.

What is a better patch lube than BB? I am not afraid to make my own if I can get the ingredients.

I have access to real BP, even have a couple of choices of brand since Grafs is 5min from my house and the Mexico warehouse is less than 2hrs away. After this 777 is gone we're gonna switch. But I have about 1 1/4 cans of 777 on hand.

Track of the Wolf's Mink oil, olive oil, neet's foot oil, winter formula windshield washer fluid, olive oil beeswax 50/50. for target shooting, spit works as well as any and better than most.