Pistol Caliber Lever Silhouette 100m

[Chill Wills]

Hey All,
I have a question I would pose to you about what might make the best 100 meter lever silhouette Caliber for the silhouette NRA game. I have been doing some thinking about this. Power is not really the issue in this game. The hardest target is the Ram (sheep) at 100 meters and they are small and light. The 200meter game uses the full size targets and in that game the ram does need a little more oomph to topple them but not in Pistol caliber silhouette.

25-20, 32-20, 357mag, 38-40, 44-40, 44mag, 45 Colt. I am sure I have missed a few….. :?::?:

[kliff]

Are you shooting at 100 meters only, or 100 and 200 meter targets in the class you want to compete in?
Out of the choices you listed, I'd go with the 44M or 45LC(my personal pref). But since I've never shot steelies at those ranges, my thoughts may be bassackwards, thinking a heavier, larger bullet will deliver more energy, though at a slower speed, to knock the target down.

[John Boy]

45 Colt - 200gr bullet ... that's my combination for Pistol Caliber

[btroj]

I have spun rams with a 32-20. 120 gr bullet over 5 gr of Unique. Gives around 1150 at the muzzle I think.
A load with that bullet at 1400 or so would be great.

[Chill Wills]

Kliff- Just the 100meter game. We use rifle caliber rifles for the 200meter fill size targets.
These targets are not hard to knock down. That is why I said power is not the factor. A 22 mag will take them all down reliably but they are not legal at our local match.

John boy, I used to shoot the 45 Colt 10 years ago in 1894 Winchester. It wasn't to my liking. That does not mean it might not be great for someone else.
I'm thinking there might be something better than large and powerful that would work better.

[fecmech]

The .357 with a 158 gr at 1100 fps will reliably knock down the 100 yd ram. For that matter I've never lost a ram that I've hit with the Lee 125 rnfp (weighs 131 grs) at 1200 fps. I would go with whatever is most accurate, the 75 yd turkey is the hard target to hit.

[runfiverun]

the 158 will knock down a 100 yd ram.
a 180 with a high hit will take down the 200 yd rams.
both with a medium load at about 1200 fps.
a lot of the guy's around here use a 38-55 or 45-70 for the 200 yd game and a 357 or 44-45 for the 100 yd game.
i have used the 25-20 for the 100 yd silhouettes and some use a 32-20 but i hate hearing a tink on the rams and seeing them just move.
i use a 255 45 colt mostly for the 200 yd rams it will knock them right down.

[Sixgun Symphony]

I really like the .44-40 in the 1873 Winchester Carbine from Cimarron. It is about the fastest cycling lever action that I have used. The slight bottleneck of the .44-40 helps with feeding, the thin case walls expand to seal the chamber and prevent fouling from going back into the action.

I use Winchester .44-40 brass, 200gr cast .427 bullets, and FFFG American Pioneer Powder.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=inP-zyRZRGA

Check it out. ;-)

[Boerrancher]

I would have to agree with Sixgun about the 44 WCF since you don't like the 45 colts. I know that my 66 yellow boy is just pretty slick with the Lee 205 gr RNFP. I have used it several times to smack a few large white tail and coyotes between 75 and 100 yards, never shot any silly wets with but I would think if it has enough umph to knock a 50 lb coyote off it's feet, there shouldn't be an issue with a steel target that a 22 mag will knock over. The 44-40 is my second favorite round and is very close to being my favorite, but it is hard to replace that 45LC in my book.

[bobthenailer]

IMO i would use nothing larger than 357 mag! not nessarly loaded to full velocity for shooting steel at 100 yards . You may also find a heaver cast bullet in what every caliber you choose to be more accurate at 100 yards than the normal bullet weight ! 357 mag 180 gr + and 32/20 130gr +.
the heaver bullet gives you more momemtem to knock over targets.

[Dutch4122]

I would agree with Bob on the .357 Mag Levergun. I own a Win/USRAC '94 Trails End Carbine in .357 Mag that is very accurate with anything 160 grns & heavier. I have also shot a friends Marlin 1894 .357 Mag that was unbelieveably accurate out to 380 yards with a 160 grn boolit and 14.5 grains of 2400.

If it were me going into the 100 yard sillywet game with a pistol caliber levergun; I would develop the most accurate load I could with my .357 Trails End (regardless of boolit weight) and never look back. After all, near misses are still just misses, only hits count.

Hope this helps, :mrgreen:

[excess650]

I have a 32-20 and (4) .357s. If you're looking to shoot this game only, I would suggest the .357 over the 44/45 because of superior sectional density with less recoil. If a 22 mag will topple the targets as you say, then there should be nothing wrong with a 218 Bee (is that specifically disallowed?) 25-20 or 32-20. Marlin chambered for all of these in addition to the 32 H&R Mag.

[TCFAN]

If the 200 meter tatgets are full size then are the 100 meter targets one half size????

As far as I know there are no matches around here for pistol lever action silhouette. Is the chicken shot at 25 meters pig at 50 and turkey at 75??..............Terry

[Jon K]

My vote is for 44-40 & 32-20, in that order.

Jon

[Silo65]

All the calibers you list are used for PCLA, I use the 357 for availability of components and low recoil. Last year 32-20/25-20 brass was not available and a number of competitors who picked up rifles for the game could not shoot: Starline made a run of 32-20 recently.

I also chose the 357 to shoot 200m CLA and it is tough to get the 200m rams to fall on a hard set range. I would probably go with the 45colt if choosing a dual purpose rifle and download with a light bullet and Trailboss for PCLA.

See www.steelchickens.com for more detailed discussions on your question.

[runfiverun]

yeah half distances half targets.
except i think the turkeys are all quarter sized or made from bendonium, or styrofoam or sumthin.

[stubshaft]

218 Bee or 32/20.

[Cimarron Red]

At last year's NRA Pistol Cartridge Lever Action National Championship held at the Whittington Center near Raton, New Mexico, 129 shooters competed in an 80 shot aggregate match. Most of these shooters completed an equipment survey; here are the cartridges they used:

.38/.357 ...................... 28 shooters
.25-20 .......................21
.22 Mag. .......................20
.32-20 .........................20
.44 Mag. .......................10
.44-40 ............................5
.45 Colt...........................4
.32 Mag. .........................2
.38-40.............................1
Other..............................1

I shot a .32-20, and I do so today. I like the light recoil, and I haven't lost a ram yet, except for light edge hits. BTW, the .218 Bee is not permitted in NRA approved matches due to target damage.

[Rafe Covington]

I use a '73 Winchester in 38-40.

Rafe:drinks:

[Dirty30]

I'm going to jump on the bandwagon and vote for the 44-40. I shoot an 1873 Winchester on a National Guard KD range near here and have shot silhouettes out to 300 with it just screwing around. It's a fun shooter.

[btroj]

I suppose someone should ask- are you looking to just have fun or are you wanting to be as competitive as possible?

For fun just aout anything will work.

To be competitive means good accuracy and a reasonably flat trajectory. Yeah, trajectory matters. Like someone else said, only a hit, and fallen target, counts. Miss by 1/2 inch and it is still a miss. Flat trajectory minimizes need to old over, under, whatever.

Notice the list of calibers used at the nationals. Top ones have a reasonably high velocity to recoil. A 357 or 32-20 running full out recoils far less than a 44 mag or 45 Colt doing the same. Fatigue can become an issue.

I also find that the smaller calibers are easier to get nice, small groups from. Maye not at 40 yards but ctainly at 100 yards. This is a feneralization but is based upon my own experiences.

In the end, itis a decision based upon what you WANT to shoot. What gun do you like? I like Marlins, that is just me. Some prefer an 1873 Winchester clone. Some like a 92 Winchester. So many options, so few single right answers.

Whatever you get, make sure to have lots of brass and bullets. Lever actions seem to eat ammo almost as fast as a handgun.

[Chill Wills]

I can tell that some of you are writing from experience, thank you and I value your advice.

My interest as far as this question goes is only in 100m shooting (The 100m pistol cartridge silhouette game). Accuracy will trump all else. Nostalgia comes in third place. Power is not what is required to win.

I was asking the question somewhat rhetorically because I have come to the conclusion that the accuracy of the larger pistol cartridges is not on par with the smaller ones. This fact may in part be due to the chamber designs. The 32-20 and more so the 25-20 chamber geometry have more in common with rifle cartridges which might make them more accurate. And, Yes, sometimes a smaller bore delivers better accuracy with cast/gas check designs (not in all cases).

I have a little more experience than I let on. I regularly compete in the NRA BPCR silhouette and longrange national championships. 15 – 20 years ago Lever silhouette was being contested around the country at a lot of local ranges. I shot some of these matches now and then. Having a championship Cowboy Lever Silhouette match was gaining a lot of interest nationwide. In response to that 7 or 8 years ago, NRA put on a demo/regional Lever silhouette match just before the BPCR championship in Raton, NM. I shot that demo match with Kenny Durham using a 45 Colt. It shot fine but was lacking in the fine accuracy I would like to have to compete at a match level.

I own a first year production Winchester 1892 in 44WCF and used it in Raton the next year, which was the first year there was an official National championship. With the 44WCF I was the only competitor to shoot all ten Rams and went for the, as yet un-established “long run Record”. It has long since been broken and re-broken. Then I stopped going to the lever nationals because it took too much time away from home and family trying to shoot all the events available. That trip stretched to almost three weeks to do it all. Something had to be cut out and I am a Singleshot-BPCR man. Lever matches had to go.

So since then I shot a few local matches every year, both the rifle caliber cartridge and pistol caliber cartridge. The rifle caliber I have down and use what I use. The pistol matches need a change from the less accurate 44WCF to the more accurate _______?

I feel I can greatly improve accuracy and by extension, my score, by shooting a different cartridge.

So, I am going to buy a second rifle for the 100m game. I like old rifles. I like Winchesters. I could like OLD Marlins. It is going to be the most accurate caliber available…… whatever that is.

I thought about the 357mag years ago as this is such an obvious choice, in the power range and common. None of those are old but I would try it. What troubles me is the 357 mag. chamber geometry might not be set up for best accuracy. You would not know until you had one. That is expensive and not a good use of my time. I am not sure that the best 357 out there is as accurate as the best 25-20 or 32-20. ….Or maybe it is! I don’t know. The 32-20 and 25-20 have the accuracy reputation. Or It is I think that just because I do not have any experience with them?

Remember, power is not what is required to win. These targets go down when hit with a feather. The Ram takes 3 feathers.

So, the real question Is, what legal chambering for Pistol Cartridge Lever Silhouette might be most accurate with cast?

Thanks for your input,

[Baja_Traveler]

I chose the Rossi 92 in .357 as my pistol cartridge lever rifle. If I could have found a 32-20 I would have chose it instead - like you said, accuracy and good bullet placement is more important than power for this particular game. I'm also a bit of a cheapskate, so I use just enough bullet to get the job done without wasting powder or lead needlessly.
Post #1 is in error though - .22LR and .22 mag are legal to use for the pistol cartridge match. I made it to AAA using my Marlin 39a in .22LR even though I rang 3-4 rams every match...

[btroj]

I really like my Marlin 32-20 for this game. I have rang a couple rams but that is due to a pretty light load.
I think my Marlin 357 would work well but I don't like the shorter barrel on it. The short sight radius can make a difference and the front sight is close enough to the eyes that it appears huge in compairison.

You are dead on about accuracy being most important.

[Chill Wills]

Post #1 is in error though - .22LR and .22 mag are legal to use for the pistol cartridge match. I made it to AAA using my Marlin 39a in .22LR even though I rang 3-4 rams every match...

Baja Traveler, Agreed 22rf, 22rf mag. are very legal, did not say they weren't.
I wrote in post #1

"25-20, 32-20, 357mag, 38-40, 44-40, 44mag, 45 Colt. I am sure I have missed a few….. "

I find half of the enjoyment of the shooting games is the casting. They are reasons to develop cast bullet loads and compete with them so the 22RF holds no interest for me.

OK, so much for that what we said, what is your opinion of the accuracy you are able to get from your 357? Do you think it is it as accurate as you would like? What kind of group are you shooting at rams, average size not one time wall hanger:wink:
Baja, Thank you for you response! The input is good.

[6pt-sika]

When I used to put lever silhouette matches on at my home club I shoot either a 25-20 or 32-20 in the pistol cartridge class .

We had a couple guys that came and shot the rifle and pistol cartridge classes with 357's and 44 MAG's .

[fecmech]

I would think the .357 would do well in both classes. We don't have the full target event at our club but I shoot the Lyman 358429 at 1600+ out of my lever guns. It's 173 grs and would arrive at the 200 yd mark a little over 1200 fps. Accuracy is in the 3 MOA range so I don't think you would lose too many rams to the gun or load. As I said before I use the 130 gr lee rnfp at 1200 fps for the 100 yd event with no problem at all.

[Chill Wills]

Woops

Baja, Now I know where (22rf mag) I say they are not legal. And that is true at our local match, not sure why but it is not a NRA approved match.

So sorry. You said in post #1 and I looked and responded to that. I stand corrected, or in this case sit correct. I'm sorry I did not read the whole set of posts or I could have found it.
:kissarse:

All the best,

[Baja_Traveler]

Really my mistake - it was post #5....

As to my Rossi .357 - not quite as accurate as my 39a, but I put 100 rounds into the 100 yard pig sighter and smacked the thing all day long off hand on a practice day. I haven't put it on paper yet, and intend to this coming weekend.
One thing I did discover at the last match is that I do not like the Marbles tang sight I put on it at all. I could never really tell exactly where the sight settings were, and that cost me a bunch of targets. My score should improve when I get an MVA base for it so I can swap the schutzen sight off my Buffalo Bill.

[Chill Wills]

Check this out, I was unable to get it into this post.
These are made be my friend and longtime shooting partner.
They work very well and are cheap.

albums/ab60/rwoodhttp://i849.photobucket.com/albums/ab60/rwood_80469/IMG_0778.jpg_

[MakeMineA10mm]

Chill, I can't say from experience, because no one around these parts puts one on, but if I were you, I'd pick up a nice 32-20 and not look back. There's lots of good mould options, and I have an easier time making good boolits at .32-cal, than anything smaller than .30. That factor would shy me away from the 25, but if you can cast them little boolits well, it sounds like that'd be a good caliber too... Definitely a lot to be said for velocity in this game, as a component of accuracy (fewer hold-overmisses), and full power (higher velocity) 32-20 loads won't kick even as bad as a 357.

[Chill Wills]

MakeMineA10mm;
Yup, That is about were I am going with this I think. However thinking hard about the 25-20. Just not sure that is smart for the reasons you covered.

Dalyoke, your comment ....not sure what you are saying: "IF I were to start over, a 32-20 lever or HiWall would be my choice. "

Can you explain the Highwall part?

Thanks and great input all,

[6pt-sika]

MakeMineA10mm;
Yup, That is about were I am going with this I think. However thinking hard about the 25-20. Just not sure that is smart for the reasons you covered.

Dalyoke, your comment ....not sure what you are saying: "IF I were to start over, a 32-20 lever or HiWall would be my choice. "



When I was shooting this stuff I tried the Marlin 1894CL and a circa 1902 Model 1894 in 25-20 . I shot three bullets in these , the Ranch Dog 258-85GC , the Lyman 257420 and the Lyman 257312 . The RD and the 257312 both did better then the 65 grainer and I tried them all with 5 grains of Unique . All three bullets knocked the ram over at 100 yards if I did my part .

With the 32-20 I used a circa 1906 Model 1894 , a 1894CCL and a 1894CL . With these three I tried the Lyman 313419 which is a 90 grainer , the Lyman 313316 and the Ranch Dog 313-115GC again I loaded all with 5 grains of Unique . The 90 grainer knocked the rams over better then any of the 25 cal bullets and the two 115 grain 32-20 bullets did a better job then the 90 grainer . None of them had any noticable recoil . I also drew my bullet performance conclusions from shooting at the bench off the bags . I wanted to take my ability or inablility however you look at it out of the equation .

I will say when shooting offhand the two old Marlin's in both calibers seemed easier to shoot but then they were a bit heavier .

One thing no ones mentioned I think is the fact that both these rounds are pretty easy on lead , meaning you can shoot alot with a lesser amount of the stuff !

[Chill Wills]

Baja_Traveler, My screen is small and I can not make out your Avatar clearly. It looks like Army's Tenth Mountain Division but I can not read the bottom.

[w30wcf]

Chill Wills,
Congratulations on the 10 in a row with your vintage 44 WCF.:D Personally, I like the historic levergun calibers 25-20, 32-20, 38-40, 44-40. I also like the .357. It is the most popular pistol caliber used today in NRA Cowboy Silhouette.

I do own a 25-20 and 44-40 (& 357). The current 80 shot record is held by a fellow who used a 25-20.

Over the past couple of years I have used b.p. pretty much exclusively in the .357 (using the original 38 Special b.p. charge of 21.5 grs.) and the .44-40. Using SWISS powder, I can shoot a whole match without cleaning or blowtubing and the accuracy is maintained throughout.

Here is a 10 shot group from the 44-40 made after 30 rounds were fired. I did have a 4X scope mounted for this accuracy test since I wanted a true indication of the accuracy capability of the load rather than a test of my ability on how well I could see iron sights and the target with my 68 yr old eyes....

http://i116.photobucket.com/albums/o25/w30wcf/Leverguns/44-40shots31-40a.jpg

Perhaps you may want to try some b.p. in Cowboy Silhouette.......

w30wcf

[Chill Wills]

"Perhaps you may want to try some b.p. in Cowboy Silhouette.......

w30wcf"

Thanks for the reply and great shooting (even scoped)I have an old (obviously) supply of DuPont FFg and for the times I just need a little ‘good old days’ mental pick- me –up. I walk my back 40 with this rifle. Does not fix the spirit but does help mend the sole.

I am mostly a gunpowder loader but am just now getting in some white powder shooting with the notion of competing in the Lever silhouette matches regularly.
My best,

[runfiverun]

you don't need to rechamber the 30 carbine to 32-20.
i just cut the 32-20 brass shorter and use 312 sized 98 gr rnfp boolits.
and loads from lyman for the 32-20 work very well.

[crabo]

you don't need to rechamber the 30 carbine to 32-20.
i just cut the 32-20 brass shorter and use 312 sized 98 gr rnfp boolits.
and loads from lyman for the 32-20 work very well.

How is the muzzle blast in the 32-20 compared to the 30 carbine?

[175lt2]

I shoot marlins in all three classes ,,Hard to beat a 39A for smallbore and the 336 cb in 38-55 is the best rifle there is for the long range game in my opinion. I shoot an 1894cl in 32-20 for pistol cal, 115 grain lyman boolit over 3.5 grain green dot, It's super accurate and I have never lost a ram ,,,,,However If you purchase a newer Marlin in 32-20 you WILL have feeding problems and dealing with marlin right now for repairs is a nightmare. I love the 32-20 cartridge but would not buy a new marlin.

[wrangler]

Go with the 32-20. I use an octagonal 24 inch barrel Winchester that I had relined .Marbles tang sight rear and marbles bead front. Takes down any steel animals that I can hit. 10.5 grains 2205[ADI] behind 118 grain cast boolit.

[luigi's mongey]

I am with Wrangler, I use a 32.20 Winchester with original octagonal barrel using an NOE 115 gn cast bullet and dare I say it 3.9 gns Trailboss. If I can hit the target it goes down.

cheers

Dave

[Chill Wills]

Go with the 32-20. I use an octagonal 24 inch barrel Winchester that I had relined .Marbles tang sight rear and marbles bead front. Takes down any steel animals that I can hit. 10.5 grains 2205[ADI] behind 118 grain cast boolit.

That is good advise and a wise rifleman would have picked the 32-20... so I just picked up a 1892-25-20 to shoot with cast. Might be hard. Don't know, this will be a new one for me. I hope the barrel is up to it on this old rifle!
It is all in front of me to learn.

Advice will be listened to.

[Sixgun Symphony]

Much (most?) of the horrendous muzzle blast of 30 Carbine in Ruger Blackhawks is consequence of unburned "rifle" powder needed to get 30 Carbine performance. Load down either 30 Carbine or 32-20 cases using faster burning "revolver" powders to muzzle velocities of about 1000 fps and muzzle blast is much reduced, in part because bullet is subsonic at most elevations. Use heavier bullets, like original 32-20 BP 115 grain bullet or even heavier ones (say 130-140 grains) and muzzle blast can be further decreased because of more complete burning of powder.

Dalyoke

I suppose that a 7.5" barrel is the way to go for the revolver.

[9.3X62AL]

I suppose that a 7.5" barrel is the way to go for the revolver.

Not for scaled-back loadings. The report from my 4.75" Colt SAA or 5" M&P is equivalent to standard pressure 38 Specials. Load data is 5.5 grains of SR-4756 under 115 grain boolits, SP primers, WW or RP cases.

[Longwood]

[QUOTE=Dalyoke;1577495]I sometimes shoot Ruger SAs in Pistol Caliber metallic silhouette matches.
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I used to shoot IHMSA. GREAT fun! Dan Wessons 44, 22.
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full caliber bullet dings as "knockdowns" on rams and turkeys).
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We had another name for them. "Miss",,, "Rats, rats, double rats".
We had to knok over the 200 meter, 53 pound rams. Even one foot off of the stand did not count.
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And, all these revolvers produce unpleasant muzzle blast when fired under covered firing positions. IF at all possible, I stand so that revolver is as far past edge of roof as possible. There is even some evidence that I shoot better when muzzle blast from these revolvers is decreased.
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Many shooters put side shields on the ear pieces of our glasses. They are simple to make and they not only help with the anoying blast from the guys next to you, they also sort of give you tunnel-vison for better concentration. I liked them and made mine so they stick out about an inch past the front of the lenses.
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Some fellow shooters are quite fond of Ruger SAs with 9+inch barrels. Both they and those Rugers are good shooters. I would note that these shooters are more like 1/2 my age and that I am experimenting with variable apertures on my eyeglasses (to allow sharper sight picture on my Ruger SA -- the kind of thing sneeky old men do).
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My Dan Wesson 44 was loaded hot and the muzzle blast fireball was the size of a good sized water melon. Very impressive at night.
I sometimes had to shoot-off and if the guy I was shooting against got his rythmn going in front of me,,, I usually came in second.
Dealing with the noise and muzzle blasts is the hardest part of the competition in my opinion.
You may want to try an iris on your glasses, they also help. There are cheap plastic ones that work just fine.

[forestgrump]

I use a 45 Colt to shoot either 200 meter Rams or 100 meter Rams. I just adjust the load. I like to see the Pistol caliber Chickens get launched over the dirt berm.

[durant7]

Interesting to me that no one has raised what I believe is one of the key factors in being successful in silhouette when using iron sights. SIGHT RADIUS!

For the 100m game or Pistol Cartridge Silhouette, a good shot with a 39A can often clean all but the rams. Our 100m rams weigh 14 lbs and 32-20 is a wonderful way to play the game. But, I would always take the gun with the best sights and the longest sight radius. Caliber be darned.

That said, in NH we have a small trend to play the game with a 44 Rem Mag. Ok, sure, no historical appeal. I agree. But, you can use this for BOTH the 100m and 200m game. And you know what they say, beware of the man with one gun! One mould, one die and ONE gun!

I use my 39A for the PCLA "heavy" animals for the challenge. When I get closer to my grand slam maybe I will move to my 44. I was able to get 35/40 with my 44 at CLA. Gun is a Marlin 1894CB with 24" barrel. Lyman 429215 over 5.8g of Titegroup. I skip putting on a GC as they cost as much as a primer. Looking forward to experimenting with the 429421 when the snow melts to see if the added driving ring surface area aids in accuracy.

HERE (http://durant7.blogspot.com/2011/07/more-44-tests-with-8-gr-of-unique.html) is a picture of my results without a proper rest.

Love to have more people join us in NH to play CLA and PCLA. See the schedule on my blog. New shooters will be welcomed with open arms. PM me with questions. This is such a fun sport. Some people plink, some people enjoy using their old guns while others admire. Some pursue the elusive grand slam pins while others enjoy tinkering with casting and hand loading. Me, I try to do all of it simultaneously! Have not been lucky enough purchase an old gun. Some day!

NH Silhouette blog with 2012 schedule. (http://durant7.blogspot.com/)