RCBS and Lee... if it ain't one thing...

[Danderdude]

Howdy guys. Long time lurker, first time poster. I want to thank everyone here for their posts and research over the years. I've probably spent 50 hours reading here.

I recently started casting and reloading at the same time. The things I have no problems with at all and would recommend to others:
Lee .357 Mag carbide dies
Lee Breech Lock Classic Press
Lee Scale (when you understand how to use it correctly)
Redding K31 Swiss dies
Lee Sizing dies
Lee Zip Trim (be gentle guys, it's plastic)
I recommend all of these without reservations.

Now, the problems:
Lee Powder Measure
Very small ball powder (H110 in my case) can bypass the wiper plate and wind up stuck in between the body, galling and gouging the plastic in the process. A take-down and clean-up, followed by a liberal application of agricultural graphite spray, fixes that. Always check the screw tension. I've had good results with 2400 and Unique.

RCBS Lube-A-Matic 2
I decided to ditch the pan lubing and Lee sizers to upgrade to a LAM2. Pan lubing is fine for small volume, but I'm conservatively shooting 800 rds/mo now that I can afford to. I had read one too many horror stories about Lyman customer service and the quality of the 4500, so I spent the $7 extra to go with RCBS.
In short, it's severely underwhelming.
The cast iron body was covered in iron filings, including in metal-to-metal contact areas where they could gouge if not spotted and cleaned out first. The enamel is extremely thin on the casting. The ejector arms that hang down do so very loosely, to the point that they don't align with the plunger unless held there by a rubber band.
Of course, I still haven't even used it yet, despite having it for two weeks, because RCBS didn't ship it with the nut that locks the sizing die in place. I called them about it and expected that great RCBS customer service I paid for. They guy I talked to was sympathetic, understanding, took my name and address and promised to get the part out. That was two weeks ago. I just now got off the horn with them, and was informed that the part still hadn't even shipped yet. [smilie=b:
To top it off, I realized that nothing keeps the lube piston from spinning. This might result in issues with pressure consistency. No tools are included, either wrenches or allen wrenches. This isn't a problem for farm boys, but some of you city slickers might not have the inventory I do. Upon review, I think the whole thing is probably worth half what I paid in reality.

The perennial favorite, Lee Molds:
Right now, all I own are Lees. That will change soon thanks to NOE. the GC .358 works fine. However, I have had constant issues with finning on the C312-185 and two C312-155s I have. I've gone over all of them with halogen lights and magnifying glasses and can't spot what is holding them apart, but there's something. Yes, I've used colder lead. Yes, I've cleaned them. Yes, they were lubricated. One worked for about 500 castings before falling out of alignment, which I remedied with a soda can shim, but now it fins. My brand new one is even worse. I'll fiddle with them a little more before returning them.

[MGySgt]

Lube Piston doesn't have O rings on it? It is suppose to.

I have never had a problem with the RCBS Customer support - always spot on and quick to respond.

I do still deal with Lyman - I just purchased 2 new M dies from them. One for .22 and one for .30 short.

[OuchHot!]

I have noticed the anti-Lyman onslaught myself and generally assume that where there is smoke, there is at least a little fire. Even so, my Lyman experiences from 35y ago to the present are generally positive. I do not have the rcbs lube-size but do have the Lyman it resembles. Like MGySgt, I can't see how the piston would spin if there are o-rings? Monday morning after a wild Sunday at RCBS??? Glad to hear you like the swiss dies from Redding, mine are lee and so far, I'm happy with them. For your powder measure, it might help to lightly strop the body on some emery to reduce clearance. I had to do that with one of my auto disks that insisted on piddling ball powder.

[Bret4207]

My beef with Lyman isn't their quality so much as their complete lack of appreciation or concern for the cast crowd. Take a look at Ebay or Gunbroker and see what a 358156 HP, 358009, 311440 bring and tell me WHY in the world any business that had any interest in cast would IGNORE a very profitable market? They don't care, people from here have talked to them and they just don't care. So I'm not going to rush out and offer them my support when they wont even consider offering products I would pay for.

[OuchHot!]

Bret, it kind of sounds like Lyman may have forgotten where they came from. I think that in some way, the biggest thing Dillon did for the market was convince RCBS and others that customer service matters. Then I hear a story like Danderdude and I wonder.......Two+ decades or so back, I would have much preferred dealing with Lyman over the blount/RCBS. With boolit molds, I think that the availability of cnc will likely favor the 1-3 person shop over the Lymans. What we get out of NOE, Mihec, accurate and others is a pretty hard act to follow. I expect my next 358156 to come from the current Mihec group buy, not Lyman. I doubt Lyman is shedding any tears. sad

[zuke]

" I expect my next 358156 to come from the current Mihec group buy, not Lyman. I doubt Lyman is shedding any tears. sad "

And that attitude is what's gonna kill'em

[Danderdude]

Lube Piston doesn't have O rings on it? It is suppose to.

I have never had a problem with the RCBS Customer support - always spot on and quick to respond.


And that's EXACTLY why I ponied up the few extra bucks, that great Johnny-on-the-spot service everyone talks about. Alas, they've severely disappointed me. On my first purchase, a new product shipped missing a vital part and after two weeks the piece still hadn't even been put in the mail.

And the design for the lube piston is just plain bad. Yes, the o-ring is present, but under pressure, the piston can (not saying it would, but could) spin in the cylinder while not moving in relation to the all-thread bolt. Machining a slot into the cylinder and putting just a small dogear on the piston would prevent that eventuality.


where there is smoke, there is at least a little fire

What else is a first-time lubesizer buyer to do when they read it over and over?


Then I hear a story like Danderdude and I wonder.......Two+ decades or so back

These things are cyclical. One day NOE and Mihec are gonna be big time producers, and the one executive at Lyman who still insists they keep cranking out mediocrity in mold form is gonna kick the bucket. But success breeds complacency and stubbornedness, two attributes that kill business. Then, if it's even still legal, the cycle will start again.

Also, I'm only 24 years old.

I know I'm just venting now, but for the money, I think RCBS could have milled a LAM3 out of billet aluminum that better than this. I have that old farmer's mentality, and when I see something, I figure out how to improve it. I didn't even have to try to find improvements on the LAM2. It's a damned shame Magma is so proud of their prices.

[OuchHot!]

You may have hit the lobotomy shift at RCBS. I recently had a very fast response from them at no cost to me. Maybe it is worth trying again. I am sorry for the experience you are having. When I was 24 Lyman was a very fine customer oriented organization and the folk owning RCBS were very intent on running the rest of the industry out of business but not paying much attention to the customer. As you say, the worm turns. I hope that this pursuit is still permitted by the govt. when you reach my age.

[Bret4207]

FWIW- the one time I tried to use the legendary RCBS "free replacement stuff" thing they failed me. I don't mind paying for something that wore out, but I do mind being charged if they are giving away the same part to other people free of charge for the worn out reason.

[Tom W.]

Sorry to hear of your bad experience. I've had nothing but excellent customer service from them. A lot of the problems were self inflicted, but that didn't seem to matter to them.

[Danderdude]

I need to make some amendments.

First off, the Redding 7.5 Swiss seating die does have an issue when loading cast. The die body simply isn't long enough to accommodate the NOE .311 180gr FN K31 bullet. I had to unscrew the seating plug and only put in 1 round of threads to avoid overseating. The die also severely overcrimps if the shellholder contacts the bottom of the die. This causes the early stage of the crimp to shave off a small amount of lead, as the bullet keeps getting pushed in after the crimp starts.

Second, and this is the BIG one...

The Redding 7.5 Swiss seater simply is not designed for cast boolits, especially those without cannelures.

To seat my NOE K31 boolits, I had to screw the seater all the way out and only engage 1 complete thread, then lock it down. It's still a hair too deep for my liking.

When crimping, the brass would rather try to collapse at the shoulder than crimp properly. The unsupported shoulder would bell out. Everything is designed for jacketed, not cast.

My email to Redding netted me a "Nothing we can or are willing to do about it". I didn't ask for anything to be done, though. I only asked if it were a known issue.

I posted that a week and a half ago in a thread about Redding dies. Right afterwards, I sent emails to Lee, RCBS and Lyman explaining the problem and asking if their respective seating dies would have the same issue. Lee and Lyman haven't responded, but I got an email from an RCBS tech saying their competition seating die would not work, but *maybe* their regular die would. I sent back an email, with a few answers to his questions, as well a few queries of my own.

Just an hour ago I got a call from Kent Sakamoto, former head engineer and current product marketing manager for RCBS, who wanted to understand the situation better and was extremely knowledgeable and mostly polite. We talked through everything for about 10 minutes.

10 minutes, on a long-distance call, supporting a product THEY DIDN'T EVEN MAKE. The guy didn't even put down Redding (although I certainly did). Didn't try to sell me anything, didn't pressure or insult me, understood the problem and actually cared that some young gun like myself was having trouble.

That did it. Apology accepted. That makes up for forgetting to put a part in the box. One thing I know for certain is that there will be less cheap red on my table and more green.

RCBS is good people.

[Reload3006]

I have always had RCBS gear. I started with a RCBS Rockchucker Master loading kit. came with most of the things I needed but not every thing. And Trust me at that time I was a young man starting out in life with a family and very little extra money. Every body I knew steered me in the Green direction. As time went by and family tragedies struck I found myself a divorced single father and so met a woman Ya di ya da ya da any way this new woman in my life came with a boy and was not a problem for me because I had 3 myself or at least I thought so. I went down in my reloading room and was going to load up some ammo and the site i beheld was amazing every thing I had was completely disassembled and all over the place. Lyman dies Lee Dies RCBS dies Hornady Dies. well I put everything back to gather as best I could but there were pieces missing from most of them. I emailed all the companies and explained what happened and was expecting to pay for the parts I needed. And I did from Lee and Hornady and Lyman .. But RCBS sent the parts I needed with no charge. That has been my experience with RCBS on every thing I have ever needed. You hear about Dillons NO BS warranty well they could take some teaching from RCBS.

[Frozone]

While that LEE powder measure will still have slight problems with fine ball powders, it can be improved immensely.

Use valve grinding compound and lap the 2 plastic parts together. As it comes from the factory it has small depression in the plastic surfaces (cooling shrinkage). these hills and valleys bind on each other and create space between them that the powder can get into.

Lapping not only removes these but, if done correctly, can help insure roundness of the parts as well. Once Lapped the measure will operate without leaking and with very slight force.

[engineer401]

I purchased a RCBS RC II kit when I started nearly 20 years ago. Being before the internet RCBS was just about all that was available here. That equipment never failed me. The Uniflow powder measure never needed cleaning, grinding polishing, etc. It just worked with every powder I used. H110 fed well and consistently. I will continue to buy products from RCBS.

I once called RCBS 5 or 6 years ago to explain a bench priming unit I received wasn't assembled properly. RCBS was helpful and courteous and wiling to talk about anything.

Lee was a different matter. I purchased several crimping dies. Of the 3, only 1 worked properly. I sent Lee an email to explain my problem. Lee simply replied the dies work. No help whatsoever.

The only products I plan to buy in the future from Lee are their mold handles. They are priced right a work just fine. I had good luck with a Lee auto prime I once owned. I own a 10# furnace. The furnace isn't perfect, but what do you expect for the price?

I gave up on my Lyman 4500 bullet sizer and bought a Magma Star sizer.

[ErikO]

I had a spindle on my .223 sizer die that got wrecked as per RCBS' support line suggesting that I use it to beat out the stuck case.

Email told me that it 'was shipping out' right away, after waiting over a month, I called them and they let me know that it should be going out today or tomorrow; they had managed to run a few weeks behind schedule and did not ahve the part to ship out. I wish I had been told that via email, but still I am getting a free replacement.