ND or AD, what's the difference?

[Jim]

Down at the lodge last night and got into a conversation about ADs. I told the guy the term had been redefined to 'ND' and explained it. He says there are ADs.

So, what's the difference? Court is in session.

[ErikO]

AD is when you do it, ND is when someone else does it near you. ;)

Personally, I believe that 'safety is no accident' so AD's don't really exist to me.

[Trey45]

People who call them AD's are still looking to blame someone or something other than themselves for something everyone else knows is an ND.

Personal responsibility minded people call them ND's, all others call them AD's in order to escape the personal responsibility aspect.

[Reload3006]

sounds like lawyer speak to me. When a gun goes off by "Accident" the lawyers say it was negligent. For most people it went off when we didn't want it to. I guess its negligent so the Lawyers can make some money off of it.

[Sasquatch-1]

When I went through the acadamy, I was told that there was no such thing as an accidental discharge by our range oficers and that was back in 1974.

[Jim]

One example of an AD my friend gave was "A gun could be sittin' on a table and an earth quake makes it fall off and it goes off." OK, whatever.

[geargnasher]

One example of an AD my friend gave was "A gun could be sittin' on a table and an earth quake makes it fall off and it goes off." OK, whatever.

I believe that particular instance would be regarded as AG.

Gear

[JonB_in_Glencoe]

First, I'd like to clarify that in any shooting competition,
there is no such thing as an AD

In a casual range visit, I would consider the following option:
AD if the shooter is not trained in firearm safety
ND if the shooter is trained in firearm safety

[Reload3006]

OK Take some of the old SKSs were prone to slam fires. AD or ND? the arm discharged when we didnt want it to. Yet probably was safe as the weapon was pointed down range.

[Jim]

.....In a casual range visit, I would consider the following option:
AD if the shooter is not trained in firearm safety
ND if the shooter is trained in firearm safety

If that be the case, my friend would be making NOTHING BUT ADs! :bigsmyl2:

[rockrat]

To me, a accidental discharge is when you have no control over what lead to the discharge. I.E. you have been shooting a revolver with no problems, you cock the hammer and somehow the trigger/hammer notch surface breaks and it goes off. AD. Small meteorite crashed thru the range ceiling and has just enough energy to sting you, just when you were pulling the trigger. Gun goes off. You shoot the light out. AD (at our range, you better have the meteorite and the bruise to prove it!!:))

ND, would be when you have had trouble with it and it does the same thing, goes off. You knew of a problem, but had not tried to correct it. Your negligence.

[Moondawg]

Sometimes a pistol will go off out of battery. This is usually a design fault in the pistol, a malfunction of parts failure in the pistol, ammo failure, or in the case of a 1911 style a too sensiative primer hitting the ejector, when ejecting the live round from the chamber at the end of a stage. In those cases, I would call it a accidental discharge. It was not because of an unsafe act, thoughtlessness or negligence on the part of the shooter. A neglegent discharge is the fault of the shooter, though carelessness or inattention to what he is doing.

[frkelly74]

I was thinking Anno Domine as opposed to North Dakotah, But I didn't understand the context.

[Love Life]

People who call them AD's are still looking to blame someone or something other than themselves for something everyone else knows is an ND.

Personal responsibility minded people call them ND's, all others call them AD's in order to escape the personal responsibility aspect.

What he said ^

[Ickisrulz]

If you talk to a safety professional, there are very few events that cannot or could not have been controlled. Most "accidents" are due to unsafe actions by people. Some are due to unsafe equipment that may or may not have been neglected by people. This leaves very very events that can be called accidents or possibly "Acts of God."

[firefly1957]

If a loaded gun fell off a table even if it was by "ACT OF GOD" the person who left it loaded is still responsible for a NG! Some have also thrown in a third option a "MF" so I do not get banded that is Mechanical Failure i.e. sear breaks while gun is carried or to soft primer on closing action ....etc.
I am of the opinion there is no accidental discharge they are all NG or intentional discharge (meant to shoot) however that does not mean the guy is legally responsible as not all negligence meets that standard..... (I may not of explained that well enough)

[Sasquatch-1]

I did have a case where it was an accidental mechanical failure discharge. I took a friend shooting and he brought one of the old TRUE Saturday night special semi pistol with him. He fired a shot and the next round chambered but the slide did not return completely forward. A gap of less then a 1/8 inch. I took the gun from him and luckily with it pointed at the ground down range push the slide forward. The gun went off. My fingers were no where near the trigger. I unloaded the gun, handed it back to him and told him the best thing to do with it was take a hammer to it so no one else could use it. He ended up giving to a friend who had some gunsmithing experience.

[Bullet Caster]

I guess I've only had one AD with my 1911; however from the discussion above it would have been a ND. After removing the mag, I forgot to pull the slide back and eject the chambered round. I let the hammer down a little too swiftly and it went BANG. Thank goodness I had the thing pointed in a safe direction and ended up shooting the seat in my Explorer. So I guess you'd have to call it negligence. I've been very careful with ever since. BC

[cajun shooter]

There are no AD as a person has to have something to do with it. The earthquake example is not valid as any revolver made in the past 45 years or more has that problem covered.
I have testified in court about this very thing and used the following to show what I was telling them was a fact.
Take any modern S&W and put a blank in the cylinder and cock the hammer. Now with the revolver in the cocked position, take a pencil and slap at the trigger. Don't push it with the pencil and hold the trigger as if it's a finger but just slap it as if to hit it quick. The hammer block will rise and stop the discharge of the blank when the hammer falls. It will show all the people who remove this part how important it is.
The design will only fire with the finger maintaing a constant pressure.
If this revolver was in a cocked position and fell to the floor during a earthquake it would not fire.
We had a officer that said his revolver fired by accident while cleaning and that it was the revolver and not him. He changed his story after my demostration.
The 1911 has several of the same fail-safe parts. The pistol can't fire unless the grip safety is held down and the slide all the way forward. If the slide is out of battery then the gun will not fire or the manual safety engaged.
I carried a 45 auto as a duty gun in both uniform and Detectives and went all day long being told that my gun was cocked and ready to fire.
Any gun may lay in a full and ready to fire position for several years and not fire unless picked up by a untrained person.
One of my wife's 4 brothers called me this past week to ask me about a Savage rifle with the Accutrigger. It was firing when the bolt was closed after chambering a round. I advised him to not load this rifle and that someone had been inside it who knew nothing about guns and was a "KITCHEN TABLE GUNSMITH". He called my wife yesterday and advised that someone had removed the adjustment screw from the trigger group which led to the dangerous rifle.
Take any safe gun and put it into the hands of untrained persons is the sure way to observe the fictitious AD.

[frkelly74]

Negligent people do tend to have more accidents.

[nanuk]

I work in the Aviation Industry

we say there are NO accidents.

there is a chain of Events that leads to a crash

[canyon-ghost]

AD...ND....it's a misfire. A misfire is when it goes off when it shouldn't or won't go off when it should. That simple, to me.

[220swiftfn]

The last page and a half is why I just say "UD" (unintended discharge)...........

To all who think that a mechanical failure is negligent, when's the last time you magnafluxed your fire control parts????

Don't get me wrong, negligent discharges happen, usually because of a person fooling around or doing something *really* dumb. On the other hand, accidental discharges exist as well, and I'm not sure why everyone seems to have the "holier than thou" attitude that every discharge is the direct fault of the owner..... For instance, if a person is struck by lightning and their gun fires, are they negligent??? What about in a car accident? There is a place for both.

Jim..... to me, the difference would have to be called the "bone-head equivalence" also known as the "******* standard".


Dan

[williamwaco]

As usual, this old F***has a different opinion.

My opinion is that it is an AD if the jury says it is.

To make along story short, when I was about 30, I was on a jury panel for a murder case. The deceased and the accused had been "mortal" enemies for years and everyone in the county knew they hated each other.

The accused walked into the VFW hall with a revolver, walked up to the victim and shot him in the chest six times. His defense was that he was merely trying to sell the gun to the victim and it accidentally went off - six times.

When the defense attorney proposed this defense to the jury panel I tried to bite my tongue but would up laughing until I nearly threw up. I was held "in contempt" and thrown out of the court room.

But after the first trial ended in a hung jury,the second jury acquitted him.

[Reload3006]

in almost 45 years of firearm handling I have only had one negligent discharge. I have had a couple of rifles double fire "I call that an AD" as soon as that rifle did that it was unloaded and put in the case until I could get it to a gunsmith to be checked out. I did do a Negligent discharge when I was a young boy I was playing with my shotgun in the house. There wasn't a a round in the chamber but one in the magazine. I thought I would unload the gun by pumping the action. the firing pin was broken I didnt know it and the gun went off I shot a hole in my parents wall. Trust me it wasnt fun telling my dad I was playing with my shotgun. That was a negligent discharge even though it was caused by a mechanical defect. It should not have had a round in the magazine (my fault) I should not have had it out fooling with it (my fault) It was not pointed in a safe direction (my fault) the good thing was no one but me was home at the time. Yea I was a kid but I knew better. Fortunately nothing but my behind and the wall was hurt. It was a lesson that has been with me since no one has ever had to stress safe gun handling to me since.

[Suo Gan]

When either happens it is nice when the muzzle is pointed in a safe direction.