A couple of questions

[Dirty30]

I havn't started paper patching yet but have read a lot of material on both the BP and smokeless threads and am left with two questions. Is it critical to run patched boolits through a sizing die? Would there be any benefit to patching HB boolits or would it prevent obturation?

[Don McDowell]

I don't see the benefit of running patched bullets thru a sizer.
I was told a sob story about sizing a bullet before patching yesterday. A fella has a barnburner accurate load with bullet x and paper y. He got ahold of paper p and decided that as it was a twee bit thicker the finished patched diameter was just a tad to big. Sooooo he up and orders a size die to take the slick to size , wraps said shiny new sized bullet in paper p, loads a batch atop the favored powder charge etc and heads to the range......
What was a sub 2 in. load at 200 yds suddenly has turned into a 6inch Plus pattern....
Luckily he had loaded some without sizing the slick and they shot like they should...
Moral of the story? Don't ask me:roll:, but it would appear sometimes we can seriously outhink ourselves doing this stuff...

[Dirty30]

Thanks. I read some posts on the smokeless page where guys said you have to size them after patching.

[StrawHat]

...but it would appear sometimes we can seriously outhink ourselves doing this stuff...

And not just about PP boolits but nearly everything in life.

[Lead pot]

Thanks. I read some posts on the smokeless page where guys said you have to size them after patching.

When I have a bad day I go there and catch up on what they post there and get a chuckle that makes me forget the bad day I had. [smilie=l:
They are like a Dog chasing his tail trying to get at the flee. :bigsmyl2:

[Gunlaker]

The fewer steps you use the fewer opportunities for inconsistencies and errors :-)

Chris.

[montana_charlie]

Thanks. I read some posts on the smokeless page where guys said you have to size them after patching.
A lot of those guys are shooting regular grease grooved bullets which have been sized down to allow a paper patch to be applied. After patching, the 'package' may still be too big (or maybe there was springback in the bullet) so they size it down again.

CM

[Dirty30]

Will grease groove bullets not work well?

[waksupi]

A lot of those guys are shooting regular grease grooved bullets which have been sized down to allow a paper patch to be applied. After patching, the 'package' may still be too big (or maybe there was springback in the bullet) so they size it down again.

CM

Yep. Just because guys are shooting smokeless, don't assume they are dummies. I never have figured out where the arrogance comes from with some BPCR shooters, but it sure has driven people away from the endeavor.

[Don McDowell]

Will grease groove bullets not work well?

They work fine when used as intended. But to use a greasegroove bullet as a paper patch bullet is more or less a waste of time.
When you shoot a proper paper patched slug, you get an immediate increase in bc for the same weight of bullet, and you eliminate the air drag that comes along with the grooves in the bullet.
Shooting like weight bullets the paper patch bullet will generally take 15 minutes less elevation than the greasegroove. Along with the less elevation required you also have much less wind drift to contend with.
The one big elephant in the room is, most times it's much easier to get to an accurate load with a greaser than it is with a patched bullet.
If going to the trouble to cast a grease groove, then why not just lube it, load it and be done with it?

[Dirty30]

That's a good point. I can load 405 gr. HB that are .459 as cast and shoot well in my trapdoor which slugs .455, but I have read that the 500 gr. is much better at longer ranges. I don't have the scratch to spring for a new mold right now but wondered if that bullet cast at .457 would benefit from a couple thousanths of patch.

[Don McDowell]

Depends on which model trapdoor you have whether the 500 gr bullet shoots better or not. If it's post 1881 manufacture , then it very well might do better at long range.
If your bullet is dropping at .459 then just use it as is and be happy.
If your bore diameter is .455 then you should do well with a .450 diameter slick wrapped in some 9lb onionskin. But chances are pretty good then that the sight markings on your sight would be a good bit off.

[StrawHat]

...If it's post 1881 manufacture , then it very well might do better at long range...


Don,

With the exception of the Buffington sight, on the 1884, I am not aware of any other changes to the rifling or barrel. What am I missing? (Not trying to hijack the thread merely curious so if we need to open a new line...)

[Don McDowell]

I am under the impression they went from a slower 22 twist to the 20 twist barrel, and the throat is a little longer to accomidate the longer nose of the 500 gr bullet.
Not saying that's carved in stone.....

[montana_charlie]

Thanks. I read some posts on the smokeless page where guys said you have to size them after patching.

A lot of those guys are shooting regular grease grooved bullets which have been sized down to allow a paper patch to be applied. After patching, the 'package' may still be too big (or maybe there was springback in the bullet) so they size it down again.
Yep. Just because guys are shooting smokeless, don't assume they are dummies. I never have figured out where the arrogance comes from with some BPCR shooters, but it sure has driven people away from the endeavor.
I can't figure out why answering a guy's question with simple fact ... and no bias either way ... is considered 'arrogance'.
Is it your opinion that my remarks were arrogant ... or did somebody 'over there' come crying to you?

CM

[waksupi]

I can't figure out why answering a guy's question with simple fact ... and no bias either way ... is considered 'arrogance'.
Is it your opinion that my remarks were arrogant ... or did somebody 'over there' come crying to you?

CM

I don't see anything in any of your quotes that I was commenting on. Just stating facts, from what I have seen on the firing lines.

Ah, just read down. I was agreeing with you.

[EDK]

Some good references are THE PAPER JACKET by Paul Matthews...excellent book; was out of print and getting scalped for $60! Get yourself a copy ($20+/-) and read what he says about sizing paper patch, using lube groove boolits, etc. and see if would apply to what you want to do.

Another, and more recent, book is Randolph Wright's LOADING AND SHOOTING THE PAPER PATCH BULLET, A BEGINNER'S GUIDE. Again around $20 and worth way more in time and components not wasted.

A third book is Orville Loomer's booklet on paper patch, available from SHILOH SHARPS. (I've unfortunately mis-placed mine.) I wish I knew as much as Orville has forgotten.

There is a ton of stuff to read here and over at shilohrifle.com/forums and the bpcr site. Pick a cold/rainy day, make a pot of coffee, and do some reading...and take some notes.

The ONLY ABSOLUTE STATEMENT that can be made here, like a lot of other fields, is that anyone who thinks he knows everything DOESN'T! A lot of good advice has been offered, what you do with it and what you achieve is another question.

:redneck::cbpour::2gunsfiring_v1:

[Lead pot]

Charlie I think Waksupi is referring to my post above.

Waksupi if you feel that that is way out of line you can delete it or shut me down.
Some of the things they post will get some new guy hurt some day.

[waksupi]

Charlie I think Waksupi is referring to my post above.

Waksupi if you feel that that is way out of line you can delete it or shut me down.
Some of the things they post will get some new guy hurt some day.


Certainly nothing to delete or shut you down, just stating my own opinion, as others do here.

[Lead pot]

understood

[StrawHat]

I am under the impression they went from a slower 22 twist to the 20 twist barrel, and the throat is a little longer to accomidate the longer nose of the 500 gr bullet.
Not saying that's carved in stone.....


I emailed Al Frasca regarding the rifling twist. Here is what he had to comment.


... the arsenal used the 1/22" for the duration of 45-70 production.
Only a few 1/18" and 1/19.6" twists were tried on long range rifles in
1880-1881. However, by going to the 500 grain bullet , the need for the
tighter twist was eliminated.

Al
...

The lengthening of the throat seems to be the key and the change to a heavier bullet. I know tha Arsenal drew a lot of information from the testing done by the British in general and Whitworth in particular. He tested the 500 grain bullet in twists from 1/1 to 1/? ( I forget the slow end) before deciding on the 22 inch twist and hex bore. Of course it was later decided the hex bore was not needed.

I would like to find one of the long range Trapdoors with the odd twist!

[idahoron]

I am using a GG Lee C-501-440-RF for paper patching in my Muzzleloader. I pour them, and dry wrap them then run them through the sizer at .501 for my hunting bullets. I have found that after I size they tend to spring back a bit. When I load these they are tight. They would NEVER come off the powder due to carrying them while hunting or in a ATV or truck. Since they load rather tight the sizing helps keep the bullet from pushing through the paper while loading.
I am getting sub 2" groups at 100 yards and the load is so accurate I even take it on hunts where any rifle is legal. The Lee bullet has a wide meplat and works like the hammer of Thor on big game.
If I were to change anything about my load I might ty a .496 sizer. One of these day I might order one. Ron

[Don McDowell]

The twist thing is interesting, as I know of at least one 84 trapdoor that shoots 530 gr bullets very well.
Also interesting that Sharps, Winchester and Marlin all used 20 inch twist in the 45-70

[catkiller45]

They work fine when used as intended. But to use a greasegroove bullet as a paper patch bullet is more or less a waste of time.
When you shoot a proper paper patched slug, you get an immediate increase in bc for the same weight of bullet, and you eliminate the air drag that comes along with the grooves in the bullet.
Shooting like weight bullets the paper patch bullet will generally take 15 minutes less elevation than the greasegroove. Along with the less elevation required you also have much less wind drift to contend with.
The one big elephant in the room is, most times it's much easier to get to an accurate load with a greaser than it is with a patched bullet.
If going to the trouble to cast a grease groove, then why not just lube it, load it and be done with it?

Don---I have read your above post with great interest...Am I to understand you are saying that a correct PP bullet will shoot that much flatter than a GG bullet?

Please understand I am not doubting your word as I have NO experince with the paper patch bullets...I am trying to get these damn GG bullets to shoot first and be consistent at it..But I have been developing a great interest in the PP bullet and giving it a try...There sounds like it could be easier than a GG bullet..? Thanks John:coffeecom:coffeecom:coffeecom

[Don McDowell]

Yes a paper patched bullet, a proper one, will shoot that much flatter and use about half the windage of a similar shaped and weight of grease groove.
Get your grease groove shooting good first is a good idea. Paper patch can be and is super accurate, but it doesn't come as easy as greasers.

[RMulhern]

catkiller

Handy tools for use when shooting grease groove bullets:

http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7209/6923390927_8291e333ee.jpg (http://www.flickr.com/photos/61286670@N08/6923390927/)
mallet (http://www.flickr.com/photos/61286670@N08/6923390927/) by Sharps45 2 7/8 (http://www.flickr.com/people/61286670@N08/), on Flickr

http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7026/6836016367_13eda11756_z.jpg (http://www.flickr.com/photos/61286670@N08/6836016367/)
Lead-Clean Gun Cloth (http://www.flickr.com/photos/61286670@N08/6836016367/) by Sharps45 2 7/8 (http://www.flickr.com/people/61286670@N08/), on Flickr

:violin::veryconfu:popcorn: