Trapper Length Muzzleloader?

[G. Blessing]

Hey, had a thought today while moving some rifles, my trapper length (16.5" barrel) lever action, and my Traditions hawken... I've never seen a "trapper" muzzleloader...

Do they exist? either modern or historically?

I'm thinkin' how much fun a short cut .50 could be... Or, even better, I've been wanting a .32 or .36, and how much fun that would be short cut in the thick brush chasin' small game...

I'm really temped to cut off my .50 hawken to 16.5".
And, a bonus, the almost foot of barrel that comes off could easily make a companion pistol.

Thoughts?

G.

[idahoron]

Green mountain had a fast twist stainless 50 cal and I think it was 20". Ron

[2571]

Not that short but I've got a .54 flintlock that was made short so it could be transported in a brush plane for AK bear hunting.

[excess650]

Historically you will find Jaegers in the 20"-24" range, and possibly American made "buggy guns", but not common.

Thompson Center made some short sidelock MLers namely Tree Hawk, White Mountain Carbine, Pa Hunter Carbine to name a few. I think these were all 21" or so. The 50cal Tree Hawk had a 1-20" twist, so would be for sabots or conicals.

BP rifle velocities are noticeably lower in less than 26"-28" range. Pistol barrels have much quicker twists than rifle barrels, so I doubt that either( 16.5" rifle or pistol made from shortened rifle barrel) would be terribly useful.

[subsonic]

TC makes (or made) several shorter carbines. The most recent was the Katahdin (sp?) 20" barrel for the Encore.

I am not sure how much speed you loose, but I think it might be more than a centerfire rifle, or maybe since you don't start out with as much, what you loose is more important.

[Good Cheer]

Here's one of the 20" GM fifties, 1990's production. It's a cuddly little booger with 400 grain conicals.
http://i791.photobucket.com/albums/yy192/SNARGLEFLERK/Ren.jpg

[mooman76]

I got a cheap CVA 50 with a 24" barrel and a 32 Traditions at 24 also.

[swamp]

What about the canoe guns?

[10 ga]

I've got a Lyman "Whitetail Hunter" with a short barrel. Has a pretty fast twist and likes 290-300 gr boolits. At one time Cabellas offered their sporterized "Hawken Hunter" with a short barrel, I think it was 20".

[DIRT Farmer]

I have never mesured the barrel on my Jackie Brown 20 ga canoe gun but it will do fine for rabbits if I do my part. 7/8 oz of 6s work and same load for clays in 7.5s. Some day I need to try a ball in it.

[bubba.50]

i have a charles daly(investarm) hawken carbine that has a 20in bbl and a t/c buckeye hunter with a 19in bbl both are under 3' and right handy.

[Geraldo]

What about the canoe guns?

Beware, nothing will start a war on traditional ML sights more than saying "canoe gun".

I've seen some cut down TC's and they look good. You'll lose some velocity but I'm sure it will still do the job. Chopping one of my barrels is on the project list, it just keeps getting put off for one reason or another.

[Potsy]

I've often thought of a late English gun (think big buttplate, possibly pachmayer rather than steel), those usually have short forends anyhow, with about a 20" .62 barrel with a roundball twist. Enough black powder to fling a 340grn ball to 1200-1500fps. I can't imagine what it wouldn't kill in Tennessee under 100 yards.
Not too heavy and really handy in the brush, tree stand, tractor cab, truck seat, etc.
I'm gonna do that someday.....

[Hanshi]

I've had a Traditions .50 DeerHunter for well over 20 years. The barrel is 24" which compares favorably to a cartridge gun with an 18" barrel. Ballistics with a prb are still good and the little rifle has taken a good number of deer. It seems almost too short to me.

[G. Blessing]

Well, looks like carbine length around 20" is pretty common! And looks gooood too!

Yeah, I figure a loss in velocity, but a short barrel gun ain't exactly what ya grab for a 100 yard thumper, even in cartridge guns... I think the loss for short range fun shootin would be acceptable..

So, anyway, I got bored yesterday... Went ahead and cut it down. I even looked up the federal regs, there is no legal required minimum on muzzle loaders. So I could have cut it to the front of the stock, at 14", for a short full stock look... But, i figured I'd stick to my original idea, a trapper, and go with 16.5" That actually comes out shorter than cartridge equivalent, since here is no receiver/chamber length of 3" or 4"... It also would have looked too short at the end of the stock anyway... It almost looks too short at 16.5 honestly... but it points fabulously, and the light swing/balance is great!

Forgive the cell phone pics please... my camera is in my truck. With frozen dead batteries(its-40F here right now).


http://akadventurer.files.wordpress.com/2012/01/1.jpg

http://akadventurer.files.wordpress.com/2012/01/2.jpg

http://akadventurer.files.wordpress.com/2012/01/3.jpg

If your wondering, the gun is a Traditions St. Louis Hawken kit that I put together in 2005..

Only took me an hour and a half to do by hand, including take down and re-assembly... carefully cut it down with an extremely fine tooth blade and a guide to keep it square, trued up with files, re-crowned with stones and files to clean the rifling up, cut down the under barrel rib... Was gonna re-mount one of the ram rod pipes, but it makes the muzzle area look a lil too busy with it on there.

Getting ready to go out to the back yard and test fire it into the wood pile right now. Am curious how the muzzle blast and recoil will be with it lighter.

I'm currently browsing sights online, since I have to cut a dovetail for a front anyway, I might as well pick what I want, and what I want for a rear to go with it, and re-mount the rear back closer to the breech end... The original sight position only provides about 8" of sight radius now... a bit short and it looks dumb with the sight half way up the barrel.

And, as a bonus, I end with 11.5" piece of barrel to make a pistol out of.


G.

[excess650]

Well its short! I would expect the light show from the muzzle to be pretty spectacular in low light with even fffg. You did mention its purpose would be for small game, so even a short .50 with PRB will accomplish that.

You could mount a tang sight to increase your sight radius.

From your locale I doubt you'll be shooting any groups soon unless you do all of your reloading indoors, but I'll be curious to see your handiwork performs on paper.

[Geraldo]

Nice, plus you've got a pistol tube now.

I've got a lot of TC Contender sights, and my thought was just to drill and tap the barrel and mount one of them instead of dovetailing.

[Tatume]

The T/C Pennsylvania Hunter Carbine is a very short flintlock rifle. Mine is 50 caliber and is very pretty. It's possible I could be talked out of it, as I'm expecting delivery of a Danny Caywood rifle next week.

[starmac]

My TC scout is just about an inch and a half longer than my 10/22, not what you would call a traditional though.

[DIRT Farmer]

I have seen a few full length guns that the owner has moved the rear sight up the barrel to make sights work for ageing eyes. three to four brass inserts in dove tails then the rear sight, and the did some good work with them. You might try them as they set.

[Alan]

IIRC Hopkins & Allen made a UH "buggy rifle" in .45 or .36 that was about 20". I have been looking for on for 20 years.

[G. Blessing]

Well, the light show was interesting, even in daylight! That muzzle blast go a lo closer!

Can't remember what size measure is on my powder horn, but I didn't get any un-burnt powder dropped on the fresh snow i was shootin over, so looks like its not too much to burn up in the short barrel... I'll have to try the bigger measure i have too.

First shot didn't go off, I some how missed oil or moisture in the bottom of the barrel when cleaning it after cutting... had to pull the ball, and ran the rod down it,came out with a slurry of wet powder on the end. Pulled the flash hole screw and put some powder in under the nipple and into the barrel, some more dry powder in the bore, and touched it off with no ball.... Flame thrower! Cleared the bore out nicely. Next 4 shots were fine.


Its good and accurate, to minute of milk jug at around 40 feet, even with no sights just sighting along the barrel top. If it ever gets up above 0F again (Soon I hope!) I'll get out to he range and put it on paper, and over the chrony at 25 to 30 yards, see what she does.

I think I've decided on skinner sights express model, in all brass for a rear peep. Should look real good with the brass already on there. Easier to mount too, just drill and tap. Not sure on a front, a simple blade with a gold bead would be nice, and look authentic, but a fiber optic for brush busting would be fabulous... Then again, I've been wanting to try a globe front too.... Too many options!


G.

[excess650]

Yeah, I expected the light show.:popcorn:

I'll suggest that you use fffg and keep your powder charges lighter than you would have in the full length barrel. Find an accurate load and call it good. Your chronograph will tell you how slow you're going, so don't expect it to be a moose crusher. [smilie=l:

As for sights, everybody's eyes are different. I prefer a silver blade, gold bead, or GREEN fiber optic front sight. A globe will definitely work against you in other than bright light.

[troy_mclure]

i just cut 9" of my cva .50 hawken bbl. its at 19.5", and the only reason i didnt cut it shorter is aesthetics.

it shoots just as good as before i cut it, and only lost <200fps with 50gr pryodex.
btw, the federal 16" rifle law does not apply to muzzleloaders.