New Way Of Thinking For Me

[Uncle R.]

Hi All:
Now that WI has become the second last state to allow concealed carry for ordinary citizens, I'm thinking a lot about what makes an ideal daily carry gun. (I'm also thinking about those poor folks down in Illinois, but nothing I can do about that.)
<
I'm no stranger to handguns - I've owned 'em and shot 'em and competed with them in various disciplines for many years. I'm just not used to the idea of carrying one as I go about my daily activities. It may sound a little strange to the rest of you - but please bear with me. I need your advice.
<
For "serious social encounters" I think a 1911 style is still likely the king, but does a single action auto cocked-and-locked make a safe carry gun? How about with a thumb break strap in front of the hammer?
<
I know that series 80 guns are much despised by competitors because of trigger pull issues, but it seems to me that the extra layer of safety from that firing pin lock makes sense in a carry gun. Yes? No? I'd like to hear your thoughts - and the reasons why.
<
I'm something of a dinosaur and there are so many different Colt GM style pistols. I'm familiar with the Government Model, the Commander and Combat Commander, and I at least know a little of the Officer's Model. There are so many new and different models and I've fallen behind the times terribly in the last several years. I'd like to avoid extremely short barrels, but I'm thinking a roughly 4" barrel something-or-other (Commander?) might be fine for concealment. Again - advice, opinions, reasons?
<
Alternates to the Colts might be better. I know the Kimbers are fine quality pistols, but I'm less familiar with Springfields and many others. I'd prefer to avoid lesser quality guns for serious carry. Best choice?
<
Finally, a backup .380 might be nice. Again I'm behind the times. I kinda like the idea of a small single action locked breech auto - maybe a Mustang or Government model .380 or? Maybe a snubby .38 would serve better as a backup. Once more - your thoughts?
<
Thanks in advance for your input. Although I've slowed down a bit in my advancing age, I've sent many tens of thousands of rounds downrange over the years in bullseye leagues and silhouette competitions and bowling pin shoots and IPSC / USPSA matches. I'm an experienced shooter but a novice at carrying concealed. I ain't too proud to take advice from those who've been there before.
<
Uncle R.

[Alan in Vermont]

People carry hammerless autos with rounds chambered and depend on the manual safety.

[M4bushy]

People carry hammerless autos with rounds chambered and depend on the manual safety.

Many people carry striker fired autos without a safety (me) ;-) ........I love my 1911's but carrying it condition 1 scares the snot out of me.

[subsonic]

There are entire forums dedicated to the information you are looking for.

In addition to looking around on those, I would suggest that you consider the fact that if you actually NEED your CCW gun, it will be under very dire circumstances and if you have any foresight that something bad is about to happen, you will likely avoid it or take more than just your CCW piece. So what I'm getting at is that whatever you choose, make sure it is something you are willing to strap on ALL the time and also willing to shoot often enough that you feel confident to make hits under the worst conditions.

It's really hard to go wrong with a lightweight J-frame loaded with good ammo.

But if you are willing to wear it, your odds increase greatly with a fullsize handgun in a powerful caliber with good ammo.

I would avoid a .380... Jams and lack of power and accuracy put me off of mine. But the ultimate choice is up to you.

Fortuneately most of us will never need our CCW, and for many of those that do, the mere presence is enough of a deterent.

I am not a 1911 enthusiast, so I can't help with that, but they do take a little more awareness and caution to carry and use safely when compared to a revolver or something like a glock.

[Uncle R.]

I am not a 1911 enthusiast, so I can't help with that, but they do take a little more awareness and caution to carry and use safely when compared to a revolver or something like a glock.

Thanks for your reply. My whole last paragraph was about trying to say that I AM a 1911 fan. After all of those years of competition a good Government Model feels like an old friend to my hand, and I can load and reload and handle and fire and manipulate the controls without much thought. There's little doubt that a 1911 would serve me well if I ever needed to use it. (Perish the thought!) I'm just a bit concerned about the safety of day-to-day carry.
<
As for S&W revolvers, I like them too. I like 'em a LOT. A 4" K-frame feels mighty comforting and right at home in my hand, and because of the thousands of rounds I've put through my K frames I'm sure I could comport myself well with a K frame Smith - even under stress. I still think a 1911 is an even better fighting tool - and probably easier to conceal because it is thinner, with no cylinder bulge.
<
But I'm not here to give my opinions so much as to hear yours. If I'm wrong, tell me - but tell me why too.
<
Thanks again.
Uncle R.

[subsonic]

The 1911 accidents I've heard of (both of them) were when the safety was rubbed off and clumsy grab depressed both the grip safety and trigger while adjusting the gun. One guy shot his butt cheek, the other his ankle.

A good holster (that doesn't shift around) and covers the trigger guard, as well as trigger finger awareness would all cure these issues.

The glock and revolver accidents have been when an elastic jacket cord got into the trigger guard of a glock during a reholster and pulled the trigger. I don't think anybody was hurt. And the revolver accident was when a rope (they think) cocked the hammer of the holstered gun and when removing the gun at the end of the day, the owner (who liked having his finger on the trigger at all times) touched one off into the floor of his cabin.

The more you have a loaded gun on you, the more times you roll the dice, the more you have to add extra caution to your gun handling.

Most accidents happen when taking the gun in or out of the holster. I remove my gun and holster together (covered trigger guard) and put them on the same way. Generally, when you re-holster, you are pointing a loaded gun at some part of yourself.

[Bullet Caster]

What's the matter with carrying a 1911 cocked and locked? I did it for nearly 4 years safely in the USMC. A 1911 that is not cocked and locked is just another club. I don't disregard safety. If carried correctly there's nothing wrong with a 1911 in .45acp. BC

[runfiverun]

the 1911 was designed to be carried cocked and locked.
notice the grip safety?
if yer worried about pistols being carried loaded use a revolver.
a gun that you have to rack and tap before you can use it isn't gonna do a whole lot of good if you are in a panic situation and forget.

[Love Life]

the 1911 was designed to be carried cocked and locked.
notice the grip safety?
if yer worried about pistols being carried loaded use a revolver.
a gun that you have to rack and tap before you can use it isn't gonna do a whole lot of good if you are in a panic situation and forget.

Amen +1

[357Mag]

Uncle R -

Howdy !

With all due respect, and IMHO....

For a sanity check, run this drill:

- GO to a well-stocked gunstore, where you can view their semi-auto selection
in good detail.

- Take a look at how their " 4 sale " 1911's are configured.

What you'll likely see are after-market mods, things like:
- Scalloped ejector port
- Smoothed feed ramp
- Beveled Mag well
- Extended slide release
- Extended skeletonized trigger
- A custom hammer
- Ambidextrous safety
- Extended grip safety
- Some sort of grip enhancement on the front strap
- An enhanced recoil buffer
- custom sights


Now, take a look at the new-wave autos ( mostly black guns ):
Either they'll have some of the above items already incorporated in the stock gun, or..... such mods have not " bought their way" onto the gun.
In other words.... most new semi-auto designs don't require such mods.

What does that tell you about carry-intended 1911s ?
They have a lot of this stuff incorporated, because they need it, in-order to be viable self defense guns. Especially, when/if the gun is not shooting " hardball ", which was great for meeting MIL needs/requirements; and not orginally intended for civie use.

OK.... go ahead an mod the bejeepers out of your 1911.
Now.... take it to some civilized & thoughtfull self-defense handgun class.
Or to "Gunsite", or "Thunder Ranch".

You know what part of your paid-for time will be spent doing ?
Running "clearing stoppages" drills. " Stove-pipes ", "Double-feeds", loose mags; and more. Ever heard of " Tap-Rack-Bang " ?
You can thank the 1911 for virtually single-handedly inventing/necessitating the need for these forms of training.

There's a whole bunch of that stuff that doesn't go-on, with a revolver.
Sure, revolvers canhave their tweeks, too. But in most cases, the revolver will require little " massaging", for it to be a reliable/dependable self defense gun.

Again, IMHO; and with no intent to offend delicate sensibilities.

With regards,
357Mag

[Uncle R.]

the 1911 was designed to be carried cocked and locked.
notice the grip safety?
if yer worried about pistols being carried loaded use a revolver.
a gun that you have to rack and tap before you can use it isn't gonna do a whole lot of good if you are in a panic situation and forget.

It ain't that I disagree. I'm inclined toward the 1911 myself but I wonder why they're not used more often for that purpose - why DAO pistols and Glocks are so much in favor.

I know that Glocks are popular carry guns yet it seems to me that a cocked and locked 1911 would be a lot less dangerous than relying on the "dingus" of a Glock trigger for your only layer of safety. It seems it would be pretty easy to bump the trigger of the Glock either with a finger or the edge of a holster or whatever - and then you have a hole in something you'd rather not.
<
On the other hand, to have an AD with a 1911 you'd have to snap off the thumb safety AND depress the grip safety AND bump the trigger. It all seems unlikely to happen in sequence, yet I know and have read experienced and intelligent people who don't like condition one carry - prefer the DAOs or Glocks. I frankly don't understand - and that makes me wonder what I'm missing. That's why I ask here.
<
I can and do draw a 1911 and the safety stays on until the pistol is clear of the holster and pointing downrange. At least - I can and do operate it that way in a combat match. Years of practice have made it automatic. Under stress? I think I would do the same - I hope I would.
<
Thanks again guys for your input, and keep it coming please. 1911 as a carry gun - crazy? Or the best of all? What about other brands than Colt - and other types?
<
Uncle R.

[Alan]

What I carry from time to time:
SIG P-6,
Colt Series 80 Combat Target - think Gold Cup w/ a solid bushing and parkerized
Kimber Ultra Carry
S&W M10-3 2"
S&W M15
Various Ruger Blackhawks

What I carry ALL THE TIME, no matter WHAT ELSE I CARRY:
Keltec P3AT in a DeSantis Nemesis pocket holster.

[waksupi]

I carry a Combat Commander every day. I have shot it, and my 1911 a lot over the years. They are second nature to me. Any malfunctions are VERY rare. If they happen, it is also second nature how to put the gun back into action again. No matter what you carry, if you shoot it a lot, you will be used to it, and will not have problems with it. When I need to draw it, it is automatic that it is pointed at the target before the safety is disengaged, and my finger goes anywhere near the trigger. I always carry in condition one, and use the air hose on it when I leave the shop each day to blow out any sawdust or whatever may get in it.

[subsonic]

What I was getting at, is it's a personal decision. If you are willing to keep "on your game" and obviously you have experience with the 1911, it is definitely a fine tool. But if you want your carry gun to be the firearm equivalent of a fire extinguisher, something more simple might e in order.

It's worth considering what might happen should your spouse, children, or friends be required to run the gun in an emergency. If they have to use it because you are unable to, thing are already going very wrong.

Simple is never a bad way to go.

Again, we are what iffing the slimist of odds by carrying a gun in the first place.

[Bret4207]

You should carry whatever you feel comfortable with. If it's a 1911 that's fine, just find a holster you like that fits your ideas. I carry a Star PD sometimes. My particular holster is junk and that model doesn't have a grip safety, so I tend not to carry cocked and locked, but that's just me.

Funny how easily a Smith Bodyguard slips into your pants pocket. No one even notices it if you aren't wearing disco tight pants.

[pdawg_shooter]

Carrying a cocked and locked 1911 CAN be dangerous. Carrying any firearm can be dangerous. But, isn't that the point? I WANT my firearms to be dangerous. I want them to scare the hell out of the gomers of the world. I don't carry them for ballast you know.

[shooting on a shoestring]

Uncle R. Kudos for asking a reasonable question. Sounds like you're familar with 1911s and K-frames. Yes I beleive either can be carried safe, between those two choices either is great. I am not a fan of autos, so I carry revolvers. One thing I keep in mind is how "drop safe" is the gun I carry, because I've dropped one before. It happened at the end of the day while I was peeling off clothes to shower and go to bed. Came time to pull my revolver out and put it on my dresser, I was amazed to see it tumble. First reaction was to grab for it, swift second thought was to let it drop, the SP101 had a transfer bar and would not fire if dropped, and it didn't. My worry about grabbing for it was I might further fumble it into firing.

When you carry every day, you handle your gun at least a couple of times, each time is a possible fumble.

Its my belief striker fired autos have the best chance of slipping their sear and dropping thier partially cocked strikers when subjected to odd angle forces applied to the slide. My choice is not to carry (or drop) them.

A 1911 with a firing pin block, or light firing pin, would be safe for some. I still choose to carry (and possibly drop in future) only transfer bar revolvers.

I frequently carry a 2 & 1/4 " SP101, or a 4" Security Six. I'm 165 lbs, 5 ft 9, not a big guy, but revolvers do conseal easier than some folks think.

My two cents is carry what you can feel you can shoot well, be drop safe, shoot alot, and spend several months, maybe a year trying different methods of carry, holsters, no holster, shoulder holster, find what works with your body and your gun.

[oscarflytyer]

I currently carry a Taurus 709 9mm in a Crossbreed Supertuck Delixe horsehide holster. I have tried everything from a 44 SPC snubbie, 45 Cdr, etc. never carried much because too big, too heavy, uncomfortable, not comfortable with the gun/hoslter combo, etc. ALL kinds of reasons not to carry.

With the current combo, I am very happy with the gun, the holster AND the combo for every day carry.

[MGySgt]

I carry a S&W 3913. If I could find a good light weight commander with an ambi saftey (left handed) that I could aford - it would be my new carry gun.

That CCW weapon can get heavy on your hip as the day wears on, you need a CCW that you put on when you leave the house and leave on until you return.

I use a Belt Slide that covers the trigger on the 3913 with a slight cant. I have never dropped it from this holster. Normally when I enter the house the first thing I do is put up my keys and then take the 3913 out, drop the mag and put it where it belongs. (It has a mag disconnecter).

Sometimes I will slip one of my Ruger LCR's in 38 in my pocket when I go out - haven't found a holster I like for them yet.

And +1 for the 1911 was designed to be carried in condition 1 - Cocked and Locked. I do have a 1911 and when I did carry it that is the condition I carried in. (gets to heavy at the end of the day and I am old out of shape. If the CCW is too heavy for you to carry all day - YOU WILL LEAVE IT AT HOME!

[pdawg_shooter]

I too am a fan of John Browning's finest, carried one for years. That said, I now carry a Sig P220. Just enough lighter to make a difference.

[saz]

I also carry a full sized 1911. It takes a little getting used to carrying, but you build confidence in it very quickly. I do like your thinking of having a backup gun too. I used to have a J-frame smith in 38, but it has since been replaced by a Ruger LCP in 380. That is my "gas station" gun. It goes in the front pocket to easy, it really feels like a pocket full of keys. I grab that one when I'm wearing sweats or something of the sort to run out for 5-10 mins. It isnt uncomfortable at all and pretty darn accurate for a little pocket rocket too. JMHO....

[gandydancer]

Cylinder & Slide Inc check out the SFS System for 1911 autos carry with hammer down safty on release safty hammer goes to full cock ready to shoot. pretty neat. GD

[shotstring]

If always felt that critiques of carry pistols such as the 1911 in condition 1 or any other quality pistol or revolver that was deemed "unsafe" involve too much reliance on the lack of ability of the person carrying. One should assume that a person has taken to time to become fully knowledgeable and functional with the weapon, not the opposite, as no one can control that except the person with the weapon.

It would be like pointing out the 1911 is an unsafe weapon because a blind man my choose to use it and pick it up by the barrel and slide my mistake and drop it unto a concrete floor while accidentally flipping the safety off while fumbling to recover the weapon. It's one of a thousand scenarios that could happen, but shouldn't.

For me, I pretty much like all my autos and revolvers but I have spent so much on my 1911s that it would wasteful not to carry them. My main grip with the CCW system is that you have to limit your carry guns to 3 or 4. How do you do that?

[MGySgt]

shotstring - don't know where you are at - but in Virginia there is no restrictions on the number of guns you could use as a carry gun. Weapons are not listed on our CCW's.

I know Pa used to require your gun on the CCW - don't know if that went away or not.

[revolvergeek]

The glock and revolver accidents have been when an elastic jacket cord got into the trigger guard of a glock during a reholster and pulled the trigger.

A variant of this happened to a local LEO that I know; the elastic cord got trapped in the trigger guard when he holstered his Glock. It did not go off until later thought when he took the paddle holster he was wearing off and the trapped cord end pulled the trigger. Minor wound to the butt and a lot of embarrassment.

In general a good quality holster that properly fits your gun and your belt, and practicing with both drawing and holstering A LOT is almost as important as the gun you choose to carry. Cocked and locked is fine if you 1) are very well practiced with the pistol and 2) have a well designed holster that protects the safety. The Milt Sparks VersaMax II is a very comfortable and stable option that will conceal a full sized 1911 / BHP on most people if you are careful with your wardrobe.

[big dale]

I carried 1911s for a couple of decades. Then I bought a Glock pocket pistol. I have been carrying it most of the time ever since. They both work fine and have much mnore accuracy than needed for a carry gun. Just do the one that feels best to you.

Am I the only one with a whisky case full of holsters in a closet somewhere around the house?

Have fun with this stuff.

[Blammer]

my carry firearm (not my carry ammo, but it will feed reliably in it. :) )

http://i54.photobucket.com/albums/g81/blammer8mm/ruger/DSCN7445.jpg

to become very comfortable and familiar with my fireare I UNLOADED IT and then made sure it was UNLOADED, then put it in my carry holster and then tried to manipulate the controls to MAKE it go snap. Make the hammer drop, make it fire, abuse, try to bypass the safety's etc...

This was giving me confidence in what the firearm would and would NOT do. Mainly it would NOT fire unless ALL appropriate actions were taken. Good grip for backstrap safety, the reg safety was off, trigger had to be pulled not just "touched" etc....

I did this a bunch.

I also spent a LOT of range time with it to get familiar with it. This familiarity and confidence helped me to understand that the way the 1911 was designed was to be carried cocked and locked and it is a safe way.

There is a large laundry list of things I tried to do to MAKE it fire when it 'wasn't suppose to'. It didn't, the firearm worked just the way it was designed.

If your 1911 functions properly then it is up to YOU to get comfortable with the function and operation of your firearm. If you are NOT comfortable, by all means choose something else.

as mentioned earlier others may critisize you for your choice of condition 1 in a 1911, perhaps it's because they 'see' something that "looks" dangerous but they don't 'understand' it.

the thing to remember is it's carry CONCEALED, meaning noone is suppose to see it.... if they do you are doing something wrong.

I was at my huntclub and carrying open my 1911 in cond 1 (a few bears were around and the possibility of coyote's were the main reason while participating in the work day), I got a few comments on it, but let it pass to those who don't "know".

[garym1a2]

My goto war gun is a Glock 22 and my Kimber TLE .45 full sizes is my backup. BUT I would not carry either type for CCW. I don't trust them accidents. I want a small 9mm with a big double action first pull.

[Alan]

I carry a S&W 3913. If I could find a good light weight commander with an ambi saftey (left handed) that I could aford - it would be my new carry gun.

That CCW weapon can get heavy on your hip as the day wears on, you need a CCW that you put on when you leave the house and leave on until you return.

I use a Belt Slide that covers the trigger on the 3913 with a slight cant. I have never dropped it from this holster. Normally when I enter the house the first thing I do is put up my keys and then take the 3913 out, drop the mag and put it where it belongs. (It has a mag disconnecter).

Sometimes I will slip one of my Ruger LCR's in 38 in my pocket when I go out - haven't found a holster I like for them yet.

And +1 for the 1911 was designed to be carried in condition 1 - Cocked and Locked. I do have a 1911 and when I did carry it that is the condition I carried in. (gets to heavy at the end of the day and I am old out of shape. If the CCW is too heavy for you to carry all day - YOU WILL LEAVE IT AT HOME!

Why do you take it off when you get home? :dung_hits_fan: can occur at any time.

[ColColt]

I'd have no hesitation of carrying the 1911 cocked/locked but no way I'd do that with a Glock-there's no safety like with the 1911. Lot's of people do and the LEO's at work do but not this ol' boy. Best of all and safest of all for me and solely my opinion is a 3rd Gen S&W or H&K USP with the decocker. You can also carry the H&K cocked and locked just like the 1911.

[Bret4207]

There's no safety on a DA revolver either! When we first got the Glocks I heard this a million times- no safety. I'm not a Glock fan, or a big 1911 fan or a fan of autos on any type really, but I've never had an accidental discharge that didn't involve my trigger finger.

[MGySgt]

Why do you take it off when you get home? :dung_hits_fan: can occur at any time.

I have enough guns stored around the house that it don't matter where I am - one or 2 steps and I have one in my hand.

May be a Ruger LCR, a double barrel 20 guage, S&W 4516, etc.....

[MtGun44]

A locked and cocked 1911 is perfectly MECHANICALLY safe. Some folks can't stand to
SEE a cocked hammer, yet they are comfortable with a cocked hammer inside their shotgun
all day in the hunting field, or a striker fired gun with the striker fully cocked, yet not
visible. Just a psychological effect, not an actual safety issue.

You CANNOT get a 1911 to fire without releasing the manual safety, depressing the grip
safety and pulling the trigger - with the pathological exception (see the original Army
testing) of dropping it about 6 ft onto concrete so that it hits exactly muzzle down. This can
create enough inertia in the firing pin to overcome the retraction spring and fire the
round. OK - so consider the effects of this event. The boolit will disintegrate into
fragments as it exits the barrel, making an eye injury the highest possible damage.

The majority of the new production 1911s have either a firing pin lock or a titanium
firing pin (too little mass for the inertial firing) so for these guns, even this mostly
theoretical issue is "fixed".

My primary carry gun is a 1911, carried locked and cocked.

Bill

[Christorbust]

I personally enjoy carrying a CZ75 SP01 Phantom, SA/DA decocker and I feel very comfortable with it. No safety, but I enjoy the long heavy first trigger pull. I personally want my CCW to go bang when I pull the trigger (no safety to manipulate), but if it's going to find a home in my pants it had better be a LONG HEAVY trigger pull!

If I had been raised on 1911's I'm sure I would want a safety.

Blammer gave sage advice, unload it and put it through vigorous holstering, moving, drawing, etc. It made me much more confident carrying.

Glad you'll be joining the CCW, nice to get a little closer to our 2nd Amendment freedoms.

[Snapping Twig]

Living in California and being a mere serf, er... citizen, I have no hope in hell of ever getting a CCW.

However...

I have and will again be a scofflaw should I feel the need.

My personal choices are a Sig P220, a DW CBOB and I recently started the process (it's involved here) on a S&W 65-5 3" .357 Ladysmith. The previous owner had the good taste to have Mag-Na-Port remove the Ladysmith logo, so for all intents it is a fixed sight 66 with a 3" barrel and a RB.

IMO, the gun has to be of sufficient power, readily controlled for follow-up shots and concealable.

Training is important, so whatever you choose, invest in training. I've been to a Gunsite course many times and feel right at home with a 1911 in condition 1. Presentation, safety, accuracy, speed.

Carry isn't just about packing a weapon.

[Christorbust]

Snapping Twig, the rules in your signature are almost verbatim what my father taught me when I was young and now what I always teach others. I always say if you follow them you can't lose.

[jblee10]

I love shooting my 1911 and think everyone should have one. It's a great pistol, but ----. I don't have a CCW, but when I go hiking I carry something lighter. It's hard enough to keep my pants up without a holster dragging them down. I also have no objection to the double action pull of a traditional double action automatic. I feel that when I have an emergency it will be at close range and a longer heavier trigger pull will make no difference.

[revolvergeek]

A locked and cocked 1911 is perfectly MECHANICALLY safe. Some folks can't stand to
SEE a cocked hammer, yet they are comfortable with a cocked hammer inside their shotgun
all day in the hunting field, or a striker fired gun with the striker fully cocked, yet not
visible. Just a psychological effect, not an actual safety issue.


Exactly my observation also. Years ago I worked at an indoor range / gun store and wore a cocked and locked Browning Hi Power on my hip in a Yaqui slide style holster. Probably two or three times a week someone standing near me would freeze, slowly raise a hand in warning, and much as if I had just stepped next to a bear trap or a coiled rattle snake they would slowly and quietly say "I don't know if you know it, but your pistol is cocked!" Me - "Yes, it is supposed to be" Them - "Isn't that dangerous?!! (horror and shock on their face" Me -"Yes, yes I am" :Fire:



my carry firearm (not my carry ammo, but it will feed reliably in it. :) )

http://i54.photobucket.com/albums/g81/blammer8mm/ruger/DSCN7445.jpg


Blammer, I gotta know, what is that slightly pointy little bullet? I love the look of those wadcutters!

[RKJ]

Uncle R.
I'm going to echo Blammer's response. I got my 1st 1911 25 years ago and it was a Series 80 GM. I ensured it was unloaded and then I tried every way I could think of to get that hammer to drop (except as 44man said dropping like the Army test from 6 feet) I couldn't get it to and that little experiment told me that I was safe to carry cocked & locked (or condition 1) and have ever since then. Whenever I get another I do the same test and so far all have failed to fire/drop the hammer when it shouldn't. I've got a SA GI Champion (Series 70 but with mainspring housing safety lock- removed) and a series 80 Officers. I feel very safe with any of them on my side C&L.