Short/mini 12ga slug shells

[1n5ane]

Does anyone have any good recipes for short slug shells?

I am looking to loosely replicate the aguila mini shells since they aren't readily available up here in Canada.

Also, I have a whole bunch of hulls(AA, STS, Blue Magic) with cracked mouths, but otherwise in very good condition. I hate to throw them out considering they could be cut down and roll crimped.

[UNIQUEDOT]

I don't load them or know anyone that does and i wouldn't even have a clue as to where to start as far as powders and charges are concerned, but it seems like a saw a video on you tube about loading them. I could be mistaken though. I bought a box of the mini shells in 7.5 shot a few years ago and gave half the box away and don't even remember what i did with the rest. I just bought them because i had never seen them before.

[diehard]

http://data.hodgdon.com/main_menu.asp

Hodgdon has 2" loads for the hulls you listed. Ballistic Products has a data sheet for roll crimped loads that has a few similar loads but with other hulls, IIRC.

Happy Shooting

[shotman]

you can do good with them If you seal with beewax. beewax dont get hard like reg wax
this is pic of round ball load ball in case and drip beewax to seal the ball. case can be used many times
It works for 00 buck too if you are shooting at past 40 yds .

[UNIQUEDOT]

The mini shells are only 1.5" long... i think the open length is 1.75", but i guess that's close enough to get starting loads from 2" data assuming he wants to duplicate the length, but he did say "loosely".

[diehard]

I found the BPI "Roll Crimping Your Shotshells"data sheet. These loads are not for your hulls, but may help in the future:

Load #1
2" 12 gauge Fiocchi Hull
FIO616 primer
19gr Green Dot
X12X + 14CW(12GA)
7/8oz lead shot
COS12 overshot card
Roll Crimp
8800 psi, 1270fps

Load #2
2" 12 gauge Fiocchi Hull
FIO616 primer
21gr PB
X12X + 18FW(12GA)
1oz lead shot
COS12 overshot card
Roll Crimp
9500psi, 1275 fps


note: the X12X is an excellent overpowder gas seal sold by BPI
14CW is BPI's 12ga 1/4" cork wad
18FW is BPI's 12ga 1/8" felt wad


All I have for you.

I have roll crimped full power loads down to just under 2" ...but pressures are very high and I would not recommend it.

I am aware of the actual size of the Aguila shells, but I have never seen any published data for that size. Close as I could come.

[longbow]

A warning or two.

Do not use hollow base slugs in short hulls especially if you are using 3" chamber.

I had a "mishap" that cost me a gun using short hulls and Lyman Foster slugs.

I believe the causes were:

- I took a 2 3/4" load recipe but substituted card wads for a cushion leg wad
- the Slug bumped up to fill the chamber ahead of the short hull then met the forcing cone

The net result was a blown up gun. The recovered barrel showed lead in the chamber from the mouth of the hull to the forcing cone and the top half of the chamber was gone. The barrel left the gun and landed about 10' in front of me.

BPI warns not to make short hulls as pressures can rise significantly. I first wondered why but then it occurred to me that the recipe with the cushion leg wad is expecting some give at ignition resulting in larger effective volume.

My thinking is that when a hard card wad is substituted there is no give so a sudden pressure spike occurs.

The pressure increase due to a slug bumping up in the chamber then being swaged back down through the forcing cone is self explanatory ~ don't do it!

A solid slug like a Brenneke or a round ball should be fine since they do not expand. So, find yourself a shorty hull recipe but stick to solid slugs is my advice. BPI does publish shot load recipes in short hulls so you might check there. I do not know of any slug specific recipes for short hulls.

Longbow

[1n5ane]

Thanks for the advice guys.

My plan was to use a lee 1oz slug in WAA12L shotcup with a WAA12R cushion section. There is a good amount of slug data for the WAA12R wad; even though I'm only using the seal/cushion section, it should still be applicable.

[Bneuberger]

Thanks for the advice guys.

My plan was to use a lee 1oz slug in WAA12L shotcup with a WAA12R cushion section. There is a good amount of slug data for the WAA12R wad; even though I'm only using the seal/cushion section, it should still be applicable.

What was the outcome of this plan? Thank you!

[Whiterabbit]

click his name. Last activity was June 2013. He's long gone. In situations like this, I try shooting an email to them and hoping for the best.

I hope you end up connecting with the guy, good luck!

[Sitzme]

I did some preliminary testing using short shells made using BPI data. Since they sell the data sheet I will not publish the load except to say that I used Fiocchi primed hulls cut to length, SSW wad, Bullseye, and #0 buck shot that I cast. The 2" load is straight from their data except that the 9 pellets weigh a small amount over 7/8 oz. The 1-3/4 load is the same except the wad was trimmed by 1/4" and only 6 pellets were inserted. I used a Russian made roll crimp tool from eBay but I suspect that any are fine. The OAL of the 2" is 1.85" and the 1-3/4 is 1.62"

The guns were a Stevens 350 and a Kel-tec KSG. Both are bottom load and bottom eject pumps. In these guns the short shells functioned without any issues. The number fired was small so the testing is very preliminary. Recoil is light in my opinion particularly when compared to a couple slug loads that I also fired. The 350 held 7+1 of the 2" shells and the KSG holds 16+1 of the 2". I forgot to check the 1-3/4 capacity but it is probably 18+1 in the KSG.

Using the pre-primed hulls the only thing required was a Lee powder scoop and a drill press with the roll crimper provided that you bought the buck shot. I set the stop on the drill press so they all come out the same length. The next thing is to get several boxes loaded up to get a more valid test. It may take me a while though.

[filthygovmploye]

so i wonder about space efficiency with modern shot (slug) shells.... theoretically we could go with a less bulky cartridge and still be efficeitn and effective???

[Sitzme]

Many shotguns don't like the short shells but they work well in others. Aguila publishes a warning about function in certain models. There are some things that can be done for some guns if you are inclined. Short shells are a little more of a specialty item. That was my reason for mentioning the models used.

[GhostHawk]

I don't see any advantage for a single shot or side by side.

Semi's IMO tend to be a bit more finicky than a good pump, although they have come a long way.

Hunting we are mostly limited to 3 anyway. Plug in the gun.

So that leaves home defense.

Which is better, to figure out short shotgun shells and have a chance at one jamming up the works?

Or practice dropping single rounds in and shucking them home as you close the action?

Me I went with the practice dropping in single rounds as often that was handy in hunting situations with a good flight of waterfowl. With practice you can get pretty good. And make people wonder just how many your gun holds.

Left hand pulls back on the slide, maintains pressure, ejecting the last empty. As it hits home right hand drops into pocket, scoops up a shell, slams it in the reciever, grabs pistol grip. Left hand slams forward, align, shoot. Repeat. You can do it pretty fast with practice.

[filthygovmploye]

you forgot range toy!! not everything is gonna have a real good "reason" to own....

[M-Tecs]

The 3 gun comp shooters seem to love them.

[GhostHawk]

Mtecs I can believe that. Couple extra rounds would make a difference in competition.

[skeettx]

http://www.ballisticproducts.com/2-to-25-Shells/products/188/

[watkibe]

Maybe I'm just a cranky old man, but I actually went to the old school, so I can't help it. I was taught that shotshell loads must be used exactly as given: shell, wad, primer, shot, everything.
Ballistic Products has a data brochure on loading short shells, $4, and downloadable.
In the UK and Europe, short shells have been in use for a long time. The Aguila Mini Shells aren't something new or weird, only new to us. I bought a bunch of slug, buck, and shot shells from Graf's. I like strange things, and they interested me. Then I realized that they are a perfect way to introduce my wife to the 12 gauge. These shells shoot like a BB gun out of my 870 Express. Apparently the tactical and competition shooters like the increased capacity and decreased recoil. If you hunt with them, you need to have a little longer magazine plug. Game wardens are funny when it comes to magazine capacity.

[JBinMN]

Maybe I'm just a cranky old man, but I actually went to the old school, so I can't help it. I was taught that shotshell loads must be used exactly as given: shell, wad, primer, shot, everything.
Ballistic Products has a data brochure on loading short shells, $4, and downloadable.
In the UK and Europe, short shells have been in use for a long time. The Aguila Mini Shells aren't something new or weird, only new to us. I bought a bunch of slug, buck, and shot shells from Graf's. I like strange things, and they interested me. Then I realized that they are a perfect way to introduce my wife to the 12 gauge. These shells shoot like a BB gun out of my 870 Express. Apparently the tactical and competition shooters like the increased capacity and decreased recoil. If you hunt with them, you need to have a little longer magazine plug. Game wardens are funny when it comes to magazine capacity.

If you are a "cranky old man", then I am also. I was taught the same way....
;)

[Cottonpicker]

I am currently working up a load to duplicate the Aguila Mini Slug/Buckshot load. I am using a Maverick 88 12ga with an Op-Sol mini-clip I bought on Amazon. I took apart an Aguila slug and the components are powder, gas seal,and 7/8oz slug. I took a 3/4in pvc pipe and cut it to 1 3/4in to use as a guide to cut hulls.(I think I'm going to reduce length to 1 5/8 cause I'm having to use a 1/8in felt wad right now). I'm using pure lead with a Lee 7/8oz slug and Lee OO buckshot molds. I can load 6 OO buck which is equivalent to the 7/8 oz slug. The Aguila slug chronographed at 927 fps MV, I'm currently getting 950 MV using 12gr Red Dot. I'm going to reduce load to 11.5gr Red Dot and see what I get. Currently I'm using straight walled Euro hulls with a Ballistic Products GS-2 gas seal,1/8in felt wad, and clear plastic overshot card. (I plan on eliminating the 1/8 felt wad when I reduce length of hull to 1 5/8in) I'm roll crimping the hull with a Ballistic Products roll crimper and drill press with the BP Hull Vise. When using published load data for 7/8 oz loads I get around 1300 fps which produces more recoil than I'm looking for. Using the Op-Sol mini-clip I'm getting 100% cycling in the Mossberg 88. Pleas accept my info with caution. It is up to you to develop your own load. What works for me may not work for you!

[GhostHawk]

If you are going to do it, do it right. Take chances and cut corners and you lose parts.

I had an uncle who was a walking lesson in this. Part of it was not his fault. He was injured driving heavy equipment in the pacific island hopping in the big WWII. D6 cat's mostly from the story's he told.

But by the time I got out of high school he was down to a thumb and a half, an index finger and a half, 2 stumpy middle fingers and that was it for hands. He managed, but he took chances and cut corners and he paid the price, again and again.

[shadowcaster]

I am currently working up a load to duplicate the Aguila Mini Slug/Buckshot load. I am using a Maverick 88 12ga with an Op-Sol mini-clip I bought on Amazon. I took apart an Aguila slug and the components are powder, gas seal,and 7/8oz slug. I took a 3/4in pvc pipe and cut it to 1 3/4in to use as a guide to cut hulls.(I think I'm going to reduce length to 1 5/8 cause I'm having to use a 1/8in felt wad right now). I'm using pure lead with a Lee 7/8oz slug and Lee OO buckshot molds. I can load 6 OO buck which is equivalent to the 7/8 oz slug. The Aguila slug chronographed at 927 fps MV, I'm currently getting 950 MV using 12gr Red Dot. I'm going to reduce load to 11.5gr Red Dot and see what I get. Currently I'm using straight walled Euro hulls with a Ballistic Products GS-2 gas seal,1/8in felt wad, and clear plastic overshot card. (I plan on eliminating the 1/8 felt wad when I reduce length of hull to 1 5/8in) I'm roll crimping the hull with a Ballistic Products roll crimper and drill press with the BP Hull Vise. When using published load data for 7/8 oz loads I get around 1300 fps which produces more recoil than I'm looking for. Using the Op-Sol mini-clip I'm getting 100% cycling in the Mossberg 88. Pleas accept my info with caution. It is up to you to develop your own load. What works for me may not work for you!

I know it's been a year since your post.. any updates, sucesses, failures?
Also, you stated that you got 1300 fps with published data.. is that data for a standard 2 3/4 length shell which you then used in the shortend hull?
Thanks..

[longbow]

Watch out for pressure spikes with short hulls if using data for cushion leg wads. I cannot say positively but it appears from comparing reloading info that short hulls with no cushion leg wad develop higher pressures for given powder charge and payload than with cushion leg wad.

I have some short hull reloading data for birdshot from BPI and that is the way it looks to me. My suspicion is that the cushion leg collapses producing more volume so keeping pressure lower. Remove the cushion leg and a pressure spike may result.

Not sure on this and it would be nice to have some pressure testing done. Just saying be careful and if you get sticky extraction you are over pressure so stop there and drop the charge some.

Also, watch for hollow base slug expanding to fill the chamber then having to squeeze down in the forcing cone. I had what I'll call a reloading mishap that way several years ago. Slightly different circumstances but resulting in a slug expanding to fill the chamber then not quite squeezing down through the forcing cone in time. You do not want to experience that! Nor do I again! The Lee Drive Key slugs should be okay. I was using a Lyman Foster in pure lead and they do expand to fill the bore quite easily. In a short hull they can expand to fill the chamber.

Play but play safe!

Longbow

[HiVelocity]

Watch the video, excellent!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kzStAOvVKJY

HV

[W.R.Buchanan]

OK this guy has some really good ideas. I especially liked his hull vise. His hull trimming method is cheap and works well to the point I don't see why we are buying hull trimmers when we could just get a piece of 3/4" PVC and make all the different lengths we could ever need.

His solution for Roll crimping with a drill motor and getting the crimp on strait was pretty simple too.

I was impressed and his ammunition looked pretty decent. Just goes to show you, there's a lot of people out there working on the same stuff as we are.

Randy

[RustyReel]

Watch the video, excellent!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kzStAOvVKJY

HV

GREAT Video. Simple solutions.

[longbow]

Yes, I like his hull vice! Simple and effective. I was thinking about making a nut cracker style with a hinge but his is simpler. Simple is good when it works. I'll save some big bucks on a hinge for sure!

Not sure I've got any decent plywood but I'll find something to copy that simple squeeze vice.

I wonder how short I can go with my Brenneke'ized Lee slugs. They are almost ready for testing. I guess I should find out if they are any more accurate than as cast first. If so they are good candidates for fairly short hulls and I have lots to shorten. I use 3/4" steel pipe cut to length for hull trimming. I've them for 3", 2 3/4", 2 1/2", 2 1/4" and 2" haven't gone as short as 1 3/4". I'll have to see what the Slugster will feed.

Longbow

[Hogtamer]

Some great ideas ther but I'm suspicious of the load. I suspect without the overpowder cup there will be huge gas blow-by. He's also cut off the compression legs which seems to me would be a high pressure load.

[longbow]

I have to watch the video closer, just scanned though quick like. I didn't notice if he had nitro card wads or other gas seal but as I have mentioned, I had some shotcups I had cut gas seals off for full bore slug loads and a whole whack of 12 ga. nitro card wads so decided to try using two nitro card wads over the powder then a hard card wad then shotcup with wad slug. Blow by was much more than I expected! The shotcups were burned and black with gas cut petals! Plastic gas seal make a huge difference in containing gas compared to nitro card wads!

[bikerbeans]

Without a gas seal the gas bypass will limit the pressure and velocity of the load. A shortened hull will increase the jump to the bore and will decrease the accuracy of the load. Other than 3 gun competitions, short hulls are fairly useless.

BB

[longbow]

A good gas seal should help control leakage some but true enough the jump from a 1 3/4" hull through a 3" chamber isn't likely to do much good for slug accuracy. Might not be too hard on buckshot loads though.

A guy would have to try each length with slugs and buckshot to find out how they perform but the gas leakage won't help either.

It would be interesting to compare old timey load data pre plastic gas seal to modern data. I'm betting powder charges were heavier to offset leakage. Those loads could be dangerous if a plastic gas seal was used.

I don't have any load data that old but there must be some around.

Longbow

[Treeman]

I have some of that data. I would have to dig it out to give comparative numbers but it is indeed higher in charge weight--around 20% as I recall.

[longbow]

Treeman:

Any possibility you could post some or all of those old timey loads? I know I would certainly be interested and I am sure there are others that would be too.

A guy can never have too much info for shotshell reloading! This guy can't anyway.

Thanks,
Longbow

[Treeman]

Longbow, I went looking and didn't find it....yet. I'll look some more and try to locate it to share.

[longbow]

Not a problem. If you find it eventually though that would be great!

I'm surprised there doesn't seem to be much old shotshell reloading info around. Lots of old brass cartridge reloading info but not much shotshell info ... at least that I can find.

Longbow

[Treeman]

So I'm back with what I was able to dig up in the old data I have. I THOUGHT that I had some 12 gauge Red dot and Unique data with card wads but I haven't found it. I do have some .410 and 28 gauge data....Plastic wad columns or at least a plastic gas seal have been standard in 12 gauge for a LONG time!

1968-1969 Dupont Handloaders guide.

.410 skeet load(1/2 oz 9s) Rem plastic Hull rem 69 primer 18 grains 4227 3/16 +1/8 felt wads 8400psi a

.410 skeet Rem plastic rem 69 primer 19 gr 4227 3/16+1/8felt 9300p b

28ga skeet 3/4 oz 9s Rem plastic rem 57 primer 20 gr 4756 card and felt 8300

28 gauge skeet Fed paper Win 209 primer 15.5 PB card and felt 9700


28 ga Fed paper Fed 209 primer 19 4756 card and felt 9200

1986 Dupont Handloaders guide

.410 skeet load Rem plastic Fed 209 primer 15.5 4227 sp410 10300

.410 skeet load Fed plastic Fed 209 primer 15.5 4227 sp410 11100

28 ga skeet Fed Hi Power CCI 209 14 PB Sp28 10100

28 ga skeet Rem SP Fed 209 16 4756 Sp28 9800

28 ga Rem SP Win 209 17 4756 Sp28 8400

I have tried to select loads with as many components in common as possible. I believe that the a and b notations on the oldest 410 data reflect 2.5 versus 3 inch pressure gun chambers but did not find that in the source document.

[Treeman]

I have found some 1974 Hodgdon data with card wads and trap 100 versus plastic shotcup wads. Charge weights are higher with the card wads but not as great a percentage as demonstrated in the .410/28 gauge data above. Interestingly the Hodgdon data cautions strongly against substituting plastic wads in place of cards since "This variable alone can cause a 25% difference in breech pressure."

[Cottonpicker]

I just wanted to give an update on my 12ga minishell loads. These loads are not hunting loads, they are close range loads! I chronographed an Aguila Mini Slug at about 927 fps.The mini slug load I use (7/8 oz Lee mold with 11.5grs Red Dot) gives 926 fps so it's pretty close velocity wise with the factory load. This involves the use of a gas seal between powder and slug with a good roll crimp. I use 6x OO buck with 11.5 gr Red Dot,or 19x 4 buck with 12.5 gr Red Dot for similar loads. I've loaded some birdshot loads using a 1/8" felt wad over the gas seal. I guess if your looking for something up close with minimal recoil a minishell is the way to go.

[Hamish]

For those who seek the OpSol mini clip on Amazon, you won't find it, Amazon went full snowflake:

http://www.opsolmini-clip.com/counterfeit-products

Buy directly from their site.

[W.R.Buchanan]

Ghost Hawk: Just wanted to share some operational techniques for operating a pump shotgun when port loading. I have been to 3 Front Sight 2 and 4 Day Tactical Shotgun Classes and am starting to get the hang of it.

First see the pic below. This is the way you grip the individual shells, in your left hand.

The motion is,,,

1. Rack the slide all the way open to eject the spent round.

2. Go to your shell carrier with your support (left) hand and extract a shell using your left hand and two middle fingers. If you are coming from a side saddle, the rounds should be brass down and you extract the shell with your thumb and ring finger, and then transition the shell to the grip shown below.

3. Then you tilt the gun away from you, and go under the receiver and up, and then roll the shell into the ejection port.

4. Move your support hand forward and close the action and reacquire the target, and fire if needed.

All of this is done with the gun on your shoulder. All you move is your support hand.

You only reload a magazine,,, "When Time and Cover Permit." Otherwise you are port loading single rounds to keep rounds going towards an adversary.

Now don't think you are just going to pick your gun up and follow my instructions and be good to go,,, This takes lots of practice, and practice, and practice. Dry practice with some dummy rounds is what I do at least once or twice a week.

However the key to the whole show (90%) is how you handle the shells. Put one in your pocket and start getting the feel of gripping the shell like this.

You use the same handling to load the magazine only once you've got the shell in the loading port you transition to your thumb to push the shell all the way in.

Then practice.

Hope this helps you out.

Randy

[dverna]

Resurrecting this old thread from a search I did to find information on reloading short shells.

Does anyone have any updates to share? I am looking at loading for a Mossberg 500 with both slugs and buckshot. I have a Lyman slug mold but am now thinking about getting the Lee 7/8 oz mold.

This is for self defense use primarily and the occasional coyote that wanders down the drive. Looking for low recoil loads and increased magazine capacity.

[swamp]

Mossbergs sometimes have a problem feeding the short shells. There is an adapter that fits the lifter so the shorts will feed.
swamp

[SHORT SHELL]

I have a greener single shot with a rifled barrel that I had accuracy problems with a 3 inch chamber using 2 3/4" hulls as 3" are rare here in Australia but I rechambered the barrel to a 2 inch chamber to take a cut down hull of 1.7/8 inches & a smooth forcing cone with no step. The shorter hull of 1.7/8" is to allow for the stretch of the plastic hull on ignition which I have found happens with all chamber sizes & can cause pressure problems especially if there is a step to the forcing cone. This is why one sometimes can find a taper formed at the lip of the hull after firing. The short chamber will not allow a 2.3/4" loaded shell to chamber for safety reasons. This setup does not need anything other than 21gns of Ap70 (unique) & a Svaroghunt slug with a BP flex-seal screwed to it sized & alox coated with a roll crimp. Accuracy is around 3-4" at 100m. I have tried 20gn to 24gns of the same powder but lower recoil with accuracy makes 21 to 22 gn AP70 the best & no leading.

[Newtire]

I read an article in a gun rag or outdoor magazine article about making short shells back in 1966 or thereabouts. Got me a roll crimper and made 12 gauge shells as short as 1-1/2”. It was back in the days of paper cases and I tried to get the most mileage out of my cases as finding good empties was not easy. I don’t think it’s a good idea to load slugs that way as it would cause too much obturation in the chamber it would seem. However, I killed a fair number of game animals with them loaded with shot. I used the same recipes as I used for longer shells only a shorter wad column. This was in the days of good old “Feltan Blue Streak” fiber wads over a nitro card or plastic gas seal. Powder was Red Dot. My Dad’s Model 12 would hold 4 of those. Not a big deal loading with data for longer shells if using shot I think as the wad is right on top of the powder no matter how long the case is.? It’s not the same thing as when one deep seats a boolit and definitely raises the pressure. I still shoot a lot of these in older 10 gauge guns using 2-7/8” data from Double Gun Journal. 1 oz. and 1-1/8oz. loads are real doable. Apologize for dragging this out as the OP was just asking about single projectile loads. So, I think short shells might not be the way to go except for shot loads myself.

[BJK]

I've been loading a mess of 2" shells as learned from the video posted earlier. I have a Keltec KS7 that I had one malfunction in with Aguila minishells. The shell turned itself around and of course that's one heck of a jam. The rim resists being loaded into the chamber first :D. But the 2" minishells I make haven't done that yet. Of course they increase mag capacity and they're also reduced recoil.

I tested the gents info in the video by converting WW 1oz #8 shot loads. I used the factory powder charge that was for 1oz of shot and reduced it to 7/8 oz'. This worked fine. How does one "see" pressure problems in a shotshell? Yeah, I didn't know either, but I saw nothing in measuring the shell before and after firing or with extraction. But the goal was reduced recoil #4 buckshot loads. Buckshot was unavailable so I started casting my own. I think I saw somewhere in this forum to just keep the shot connected in the "strings" that come out of the mould. That makes putting 15 buckshot into one pretty easy. The payload weighs .7oz and I'm using 20gr Red Dot. I started with a much smaller charge weight but it was clearly anemic. The gent in the video uses 20 grains so that's what I worked up to. It works fine. At about 10 yards with a cyl'bore gun I'm getting approx' 6" spread. The strings can be seen to make one hole and others make a slice in the paper full length for the string. I haven't chrono'ed any of them yet. Next up are 7/8 oz slugs once my mould arrives. 2" slugs were also a goal and that's why I first tested this radical idea with 7/8oz shot.

The folks who advise that getting rid of the shock absorber under the wad increases pressure I think is valid. But there is also lots of blow by. Maybe that will change with the slugs because of full support of the wad base by the slug. I'll drop the powder charge back and start that testing all over. But I see these shells as being more like a huge handgun round since they don't use the shock absorber base of the wad.

Benefits? At least with the 15 pellet buckshot I get substantially reduced recoil, and of course increased mag' capacity. The KS7 has a 2 3/4" capacity of 7 shells. With the 2" minishells I get 10 in the mag' for a capacity of 11 in the gun. The Aguila minishells would get more in the gun, but malfunctions are unacceptable. The flipped shell wasn't the easiest to fix and under the wrong conditions could make for a really bad day. But reduced recoil, while it was a goal for my aging carcass, could also be beneficial when introducing others to the shotgun. For myself I see it as giving faster follow up shots if needed. The payload is decreased, but I think 15 pellets in a smallish area would be quite devastating. I hope I never get any volunteers to try it out on.

Cutting down hulls is pretty fast using the 3/4" PVC pipe idea. I pierce the hull using the pipe as the gauge of course, using a sharp blade in a utility knife (box cutter). Then I use an other utility knife with what looks like a box cutter blade that's 6" long*. The same PVC pipe, again, is the gauge. They come out perfect every time. The knife edge has a bevel, one wants to cant the blade so that it pulls the hull into the pipe, but not so much that the blade slices into the pipe. Start and complete the final trim to length cut using the piercing first cut as the starter.

*Found in the paper industry, it's called a tailcutter blade. But the notch found in a box cutter blade needs to be ground into the tailcutter blade. You'll need to find your own slicing solution or find a papermaker who can get one for you.

My #8 test loads using converted WW shells next to Aguila minishells.
https://i.postimg.cc/nhvGgFb2/12-Ga-Short-Shells-cropped.jpg (https://postimages.org/)

One of my #4 buckshot loads
https://i.postimg.cc/wvcRFrLf/12ga-Short-Shell-Buckshot-1-small.jpg (https://postimages.org/)

The length difference that makes a functioning difference, not much but it's enough
https://i.postimg.cc/ZnbBQLLT/12ga-Short-Shell-Buckshot-2-small.jpg (https://postimages.org/)

[BJK]

I'm so glad I learned to cast the #4 buckshot first. The slug mould came in yesterday and today was a clear blue sky with no wind. A perfect day for me to cast, so I did. One problem I had was in keeping the mould too hot (maybe) and not allowing the slug enough time to get solid. I was moving pretty fast. Including melting the lead, in slightly less than 1.5hrs I made a hair over 124 slugs. I lost count but that's pretty close :D .

The first to come out of the preheated mould had what I consider to be minor cosmetic lines that look like creases, but I see no reason they can't be used. Then as the mould heated up some more they were perfect. I just need to slow down a bit and allow them to get a bit more solid. I looked at the sprue and they looked solid, but clearly some weren't. Many had the sprue cut off and others had the sprue smeared off if that makes sense.

But everything considered I think that if someone can't cast slugs they should just give up. It was that easy.

Now I need to cast a few hundred more so that I have enough to play with through the winter.

[longbow]

I'll second what Newtire said about slugs in short hulls... at least soft HB slugs in short hulls.

I had an unpleasant experience loading short hulls with Lyman Foster slugs. The load was essentially a Lyman manual load but using short hull, plastic gas seal, no cushion leg and filled soft lead Lyman Foster slug. I had shot these loads through my Browning BPS with slug barrel and found heavy recoil and some sticky extraction (that is your pressure sign!). I should have stopped there but wasn't smart enough!

Next time I took out my Remington single shot. First pull of the trigger the barrel blew up! A chunk of barrel full length of the chamber blew off. Fortunately, I only got a few small punctures and lost a bit of hearing in my right ear.

Examination of the barrel later showed that the slug had obturated to fill the 3" chamber right at the case mouth showing lead streaks to the forcing cone. My guess is that since I filled the slugs to keep wads from blowing into the hollow base, the slugs and filler expanded to fill the chamber then met the forcing cone and didn't want to swage back down easily.

So that and the fact that the load recipe called for a cushion leg wad and I removed the cushion but used the plastic gas seal are likely the main causes.

To qualify, this was a book loading that had been used before in full length hulls with no issues. Then I shortened the hulls and removed cushion legs from wads to load short rounds. There was no room for double charge, I only had one powder (PB) on hand and slugs were filled to prevent wads from blowing into the HB as had occurred in some cases without filler. Chamber was 3" and hulls were about 2" or 2 1/4" long.

I wouldn't be concerned about birdshot or buckshot loads or solid slugs but would be wary of HB slugs than can obturate to fill the chamber before hitting the forcing cone. I will also repeat the warning about removing a cushion leg when using a plastic gas seal. I think removal of the cushion leg results in a pressure spike at ignition, at least with fast powders, due to reduced volume of combustion chamber.

If you load over card wads and do not use a plastic gas seal there is significant leakage so a pressure spike is not likely. However, I'd still err on the side of caution.

Just some thoughts from my unpleasant experience that I wouldn't wish on anyone else.

Longbow

[BJK]

Longbow, I know you wrote that for everyone, but thanks for those words of caution.

I tried one gas seal and decided that was venturing into an area I didn't really want to go into. I had downloaded the shell substantially and clearly even with that it was entirely different than what I'd been shooting. No sticky extraction at all so far, even with that shell, and I don't want any. The thin brass bases expand slightly, but not as much as I would expect if there was "high pressure". I really dislike having no pressure signs as I have with metallic reloading.

That one gas seal load told me exactly what you wrote, that the wad alone has plenty of blow by to act as a pressure relief valve and I intend to use that to my advantage from now on. No more gas seals. Once was enough. Pressure is a friend but it can turn into an enemy really fast.

I cast more slugs today and I have enough for any potential needs over the winter.

[longbow]

You should do a search for RanchDog's posts on loading Lee slugs ~ his latest posts. Here's one:

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?386060-Western-Field-170-Slugster-Lee-1-oz-without-Tail-Feathers&highlight=ranchdog

After much experimenting he went to 3" hulls and stacked card wads but no plastic gas seal. His intent was to reduce the jump to the forcing cone by using 3" hulls and lots of stacked wads. Yours is opposite in that you want short hulls but his load data with reduced wad stack to suit short hulls should be completely safe.

I agree with your comment on no pressure signs completely! When I first started reloading slugs I wasn't aware of some of the issues of shotshell reloading especially with regards to high velocity slug loads and in particular the effects of primer substitutions.

On that note, if you are not aware, a primer substitution (just brand, not standard to magnum) can affect pressure by up to 3000 PSI! Not a big issue if you are loading what would be an 7,000 PSI load and it become and 10,000 PSI load but could be a concern if the recipe is for an 11,000 PSI load. 209 primers are not created equal!

BPI has load data for short hulls and for loading card and fiber wad stacks (no plastic gas seal) if you are interested. They have published data sheets available inexpensively. As far as I recollect these are all shot loads, not slug loads but by subbing equal weight they will work for slugs.

Play but play safe!

Longbow

[BJK]

Interesting read, I appreciate knowing it existed. Yes, the jump from the hull through the chamber and into the barrel also concerns me re: accuracy. But I have my fingers crossed. The Aguila mini slugs appeared to be accurate. At least when I adjusted my sight I got the same movement of the slug on paper. I'm hoping my loads will do the same. Next I need to build some and test for velocity and accuracy.

My choke tubes will be in on Monday unless they aren't. Sorry, but that's the way deliveries seem to be anymore. I plan to test the buckshot loads some more too. At this point I know that they go bang and appear good on paper at 10ish yards which is all I really want from them. But if I can change the spread from 6" to less that'll be better. Even better if the same choke tube will handle slugs accurately.

[glenr1]

Here's is a free downloadable PDF http://www.fourten.org.uk/mini_shells.pdf also the mini clip http://www.opsolmini-clip.com/ works well in the mossey's 500's and shockwave But I will say that making the shells 2"s they work with out the adapters. Haven't had a problem cycling. Here is the BPI downloadable shortened hulls https://www.ballisticproducts.com/Brochure-Loading-Shortened-Hulls/productinfo/00XSHORT/ have it and it is great.
Here are some U Tube vid's as with all Utubes caution is advised.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kzStAOvVKJY
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZXA1WWbwmIM&t=1016s
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l3XXoI77aD0&fbclid=IwAR1HNOpde7BU2b9WG05TOykM63331HDvkM8m-K6BWCjESDsc42nYsObdNjE
This is an article https://www.americanrifleman.org/articles/2017/12/19/latest-loads-12-ga-2-inch-shotshell/
Federal is now selling them
https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/50022733432_88baca894a_z.jpg
as with all info posted on the web use your uncommon sense

[BJK]

I updated a different thread and forgot to update this one. I loaded some slugs using the data found here and load data found in the text below the video:
https://youtu.be/kzStAOvVKJY

I downloaded the powder charge to 16 grains.

The accuracy was the pits. It would be OK for close range though and when I write close range I mean not more than 15 yards. I have the short 2" #4 buckshot loads that will do that.

I'm dropping back and doing more research, maybe even going to round balls. But it's going to take time for me to do that, maybe not until spring when I can get back to this.

[BJK]

More data, and a lesson in humility. :D I expected the test loads to be what I wanted and they aren't.
But it wasn't all lost, I learned what won't work. In the meantime I also acquired some load data from Ballistic Products for future test loads.
So basically I'll be starting all over. It will take time to do so though, I have so many irons in the fire.

Part of today was also learning how to use the brand new LabRadar. There is a learning curve but it's so much easier than using a sky screen type chrono'.

Data follows as it came out of the LabRadar, cleaned up quite a bit for clarity.

First up:
Aguila Mini slugs

Total number of shots;0002
Units velocity;fps

Shot 0001; 1235 fps
Shot 0002; 1173 fps

I had intended to fire at least 5, I took 6 "just in case". Four were lost to the learning curve. I didn't have the invisible radar beam aimed correctly and while it detected the trigger it never "saw" anything bouncing the signal back.

Next up were
Cut down WW 12ga 2 3/4" 1 oz #8 shot 1290fps
turned into: 2" .700oz (15 #4 buckshot)

Series No;0002
Total number of shots;0004
Stats - Average;704.42;fps
Stats - Highest;767.54;fps;
Stats - Lowest;650.59;fps;
Stats - Ext. Spread;116.95;fps;
Stats - Std. Dev;48.05;fps;


0001;768 fps
0002;700
0003;699
0004;651

Since I got more data I left in the stats. The shells as loaded at the factory show a huge difference in velocity. I expected that, just not so much of a difference. I consider these unusable for HD.

Next up, basically data from a YouTube video. Yeah, I know. This result proves the point.
From virgin hulls, loaded from "scratch"
2" 12ga, 15 #4 Buckshot (.700oz), 20gr Red Dot, Rio hull
No gas seal used, just the wad cup for the shot

Series No;0003;;
Total number of shots;0004

Stats - Average;425.60;fps;
Stats - Highest;470.79;fps;
Stats - Lowest;349.66;fps;
Stats - Ext. Spread;121.13;fps;
Stats - Std. Dev;53.37;fps;

0001;350 fps
0002;429
0003;452
0004;471

At first I thought the chrono' was picking up the wad, but I don't think plastic returns a signal. I need to check with the manufacturer.

This is laughable. It would make a really good training shell for someone new to shotguns. It makes noise, has flash, and no recoil worth mentioning and you can see why. I wouldn't want to be hit by it but to use it for HD would be even less under consideration than the test shells above this.

So as I sorta mentioned at the beginning of this post, I learned what won't work. Now I drop back and make something that will. I'll reclaim what I can and junk the rest.

The LabRadar? It gets really high marks for ease of setup and saves me all sorts of work writing stuff down. Now I just need to keep track of what I shoot for each string and come back later to get the data. There's nothing to get shot up when shooting wads or sabots. And did I mention the ease of setting it up? The downside? It only measures up to 3900 fps and I have velocities higher than that (4200+).

[W.R.Buchanan]

Next up, basically data from a YouTube video. Yeah, I know. This result proves the point.
From virgin hulls, loaded from "scratch"
2" 12ga, 15 #4 Buckshot (.700oz), 20gr Red Dot, Rio hull
No gas seal used, just the wad cup for the shot

Series No;0003;;
Total number of shots;0004

Stats - Average;425.60;fps;
Stats - Highest;470.79;fps;
Stats - Lowest;349.66;fps;
Stats - Ext. Spread;121.13;fps;
Stats - Std. Dev;53.37;fps;

0001;350 fps
0002;429
0003;452
0004;471

So you only got 425 ish FPS out of 20 gr of Red Dot?

In a 2 3/4" hull 16 gr of Red Dot which is a very common Trap Load would yield 12-1300 fps with 1 1/8 oz of shot!

Something is drastically wrong. And I'm thinking you are getting massive amounts of blow by because 20 gr of Red Dot with 3/4 oz payload should be a pretty hot load. and well past 1300 fps.

Randy

[BJK]

Because the wad is cut off right behind the wad cup, yes, I expected massive blow by. But that blow by wasn't unwelcome (it's discussed earlier in the thread) because I was using youtube data and superfast powder. I trust youtube posters even less than I trust the talking heads in the media. Frankly I was scared to add a gas seal. When I did I backed off on the powder and the load was entirely different. But I have no way to monitor what was going on in the barrel so I just left it alone. I had no idea what I had for velocity until today. All I knew was that they went bang and the recoil was extremely light.

[longbow]

Did you recover any shotcups? If so I am betting they were in rough shape.

When I tried shotcups that I had cut gas seals off over nitro and hard card wads the blow by was enough to melt and shred the plastic!

Those loads should have been about equivalent to an old style load before plastic wads with gas seal were invented. If so then those old loads did have considerable blow by that would have been accounted for by larger powder charges.

Longbow

[BJK]

Longbow I didn't even look for them but I could probably find them on top of the snow if I looked. I saw them landing. Yeah, I'd be willing to bet the 3000° flame did a number on them.

[longbow]

Recovered wads, or in this case shotcups, should tell a story.

I always look for wads if using a wad slug to see what condition they are in. Generally if the gas seal is blown or petals sheared or crumpled accuracy is poor. There are exceptions but in my experience if the wad is in poor shape the accuracy reflects it. A better fit or different wad required.

Support under the slug can be an issue too. My first lesson was in loading Lyman Foster slugs to Lyman book recipes. One recipe had the petals cut off a wad and the Lyman slug sitting on top. I had wads blowing into the base of the slug and in some cases blowing right through the slug. These were pure lead slugs. I also found out quickly that if using round balls on top of a cushion leg with petals cut off or round ball inside a shotcup that the gas seal and bottom of the shotcup tend to fail as pressure distorts the shotcup and gas seal around the ball. A nitro card wad or two and/or some COW/buffer under the ball solves that one. Without looking at recovered wads I wouldn't have known what the problem was.

Some wads get driven into the cavity of Lee Drive Key slugs so distorting the bottom of the shotcup and cushion leg and sometimes they even stay with the slug which of course ruins accuracy. Again, a nitro card wad solves it.

In your case I'm betting there was enough blow by to frazzle those shotcups.

Longbow

[BJK]

The loads were actually #4 buckshot. The slug load experiment has been shelved for now, but I had to chrono' the buckshot.

I found many wads and they were totally mangled. I also added a 1/16" thick fiber wad under the shot as a stiffener (split from a 1/4"FW). I have no idea if that worked or not but I did find one. The imprint of the buckshot was plainly visible and where the buckshot made their mark and kept the fiber clean the rest was soot black. :D That tells me that the shot did it's job and kept the fiber wad partially clean. OK, that was a joke. I look on this experiment as a total failure, but again, I know what doesn't work.

I'm going to revisit all of this, probably in the spring when the shooting isn't quite so cold. At least that's my plan, but plans do change.

I have the Ball' Prod' brochure and that will be a huge help.

[longbow]

With buckshot payload I'd think blow by would be even worse than with a tight fitting slug and for me that blow by was BAD! Wads were burned black with melted and stretched petals... a real mess! And that was with a nitro card wad over the powder then hard card wad column and snug fitting slug in shotcup.

It would be interesting to pressure test the same load with plastic wad/gas seal and then with nitro card and hard card wads under a shotcup with no cushion leg or plastic seal. Or for that matter, just the card wads and a same weight payload. That blow by has to drop pressure a lot... probably more so with slow powders.

Longbow