Questions - Lyman 4500 & .480 Ruger Boolits

[ricklaut]

Good morning -

I'm a new caster, and just wanted to confer with the experts here before I touch off my first 400 grain .480 Ruger boolits.

How do these look? (unsized on the left, two examples of sized .476's on the right). Anything I'm missing before loading these up?

http://www.rnlvideo.com/reloading/IMAG0207a.jpg

I got my Lyman 4500 last night, and worked through getting about 25 boolits lubed with Lyman Orange Magic. My mold is dropping .480; when I resize them it's moving (smearing) a lot of lead up (boolit going into the sizer base first, per Lyman's instructions). As you can see, some of the grooves are getting very thin in the sizing process. Is this any cause for concern?

I should have bought the heater... a hair dryer pointed at the base of the frame helped to get the lube softer.

[btroj]

You don't look to be getting good lube fill into the grooves. More heat might help there.
As for the smearing, that is normal. The lead being sized has to go someplace.

They look fine to me. Go load some up and see how they shoot. Best way to learn is by doing.

Let us know how they do.

[44man]

You are sizing too much. Have you measured them? I bet the die is off. It also looks like boolits are not going in straight. The mold might be too oversize too.
Orange Magic is not very good either, too hard and brittle.
Looks like a bevel base or you are not filling the mold, the edges should be sharp enough to cut your fingers.
I see places where the die is not touching too.
What lead, looks too soft?
I have .476" boolits that age expand to .480" and get hard to chamber. I get no change when I run them back through the .476" Lee die.
Something is ruining your boolits.

[44man]

Here is a .480" boolit I just pushed through a .476" die.

[41 mag fan]

Unless I'm mistaken, that center boolit has lube on the base. Could be since you're using hard lube, too much pressure causing lube to get onto bases of boolits.

[ricklaut]

Here is a .480" boolit I just pushed through a .476" die.

That looks a lot better than mine. What do they measure out of the mold? Mine are coming out of the mold at .480 - .481 and when resized, they're correctly sized at .476 to .4765. But they're certainly not pretty. Maybe my mold is oversized... Are they shootable though?

I was having a bit of trouble with some coming out of the mold out-of-round. I attributed that to their weight and dropping them too soon. I culled a bunch, but these could have that problem - and I'm I'm surmising that the spots that don't look like they touched may have been around .475 because of that (although as hard as I try to measure on that spot, I'm still getting .476 now). The picture makes them look a tad worse than in reality.

The lead is wheel weights. I have some that were air cooled and some that are water dropped. These two were air cooled.

On the bases - I think I still have a bit of work to do to get my technique down. My .358 boolits have a much better base than these. Interesting how each mold has its own character.

And yes, there is a bit of lube on the base on the middle one - lesson learned there about not keeping enough pressure on the handle and / or too much lube pressure.

[44man]

I made the mold and they drop .477"-.478". I size .476" but if let them age before sizing the water dropped WW lead will expand to .480". Some sized soon after casting still go that large.
I made a mistake once and loaded some and had trouble chambering but these boolits have done less then 1" at 100 yards. My normal 50 yard groups will run around 5/8" if I am seeing straight. Sometimes to 1/2".
I use a Lee .476" push through made for me by Lee and hand lube with Felix before pushing through.
I am concerned about your Lyman lube sizer, something is not right.
No, your boolits go bang, no accuracy.
This is the boolit I used to hit a 6" rifle swinger 4 out of 5 times at 400 yards from Creedmore. The first shot missed ranging an aiming point.
I gave my spotter the gun and he hit the swinger 3 times. We actually had half the rifle shooters pack up and leave but the rest came to see what we were doing, they had no idea at all we were shooting a revolver! :bigsmyl2:
You really need to find the trouble and get perfect boolits. Do not give up, the answer is here at this site. I think you have a crazy mechanical problem and might have to send dies or something back. Boolits should never look like that.
You are new to casting and in the greatest part of shooting and fun, but it might not be your fault. Some stuff we buy is just not right.

[thos]

Is it possible that your sizer top punch isn't centered, or that it doesn't fit the boolit correctly so that the boolit can be out of line? This is something to get right. It looks like they may not be lined up in the die.

[44man]

Is it possible that your sizer top punch isn't centered, or that it doesn't fit the boolit correctly so that the boolit can be out of line? This is something to get right. It looks like they may not be lined up in the die.
Way too much damage from a punch. There is something wrong he can't control.
How I hate to see anyone get a start like that. The poor fellow has a large problem and I don't like it. Some of the stuff we buy just is not right.
I would box up all of it along with some boolits and send it all back to Lyman and tell them to fix it or refund the money.

[ricklaut]

I'll look again when I get home from work, but my sense is that most of what I'm seeing is from the difference in the size from the mold (.480 ish) versus the size they're coming out of the sizing die (.476).

To me, that means my first problem is with the size of the mould - I would like to see how the sizing die works when the dropped boolit is closer to spec. Are there any hints on technique that I can use to get smaller boolits straight from the mould?

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[44man]

I'll look again when I get home from work, but my sense is that most of what I'm seeing is from the difference in the size from the mold (.480 ish) versus the size they're coming out of the sizing die (.476).

To me, that means my first problem is with the size of the mould - I would like to see how the sizing die works when the dropped boolit is closer to spec. Are there any hints on technique that I can use to get smaller boolits straight from the mould?

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No, the proper alloy for the .480 will be large. I would try water dropped WW metal because it will shoot best. Size right after casting.
If the size die keeps doing that, it is wrong.
Why don't you load a dummy round aged a few days right out of the mold to see if it will chamber. You might not have to size at all.
It is very rare to have a Lyman mold over size, most are too small.
Are you sure there are no lead smears in between the blocks? Do the blocks close with no light between them?
Still, you should not ruin a boolit from .480 to .476.

[45-70 Chevroner]

If your boolit is .480 out of the mold then you are sizing them down too much. My Lyman #47 says that it is not good to size down more that .003". That is why you are getting the lead smearing that shows in your picture. I would try a larger sizer that would bring it down to
.478" and no less than .477". A lot of people don't like to size down much more than .002".
44man doesn't see a problem with sizing down that much and he could well be right, but I personally don't do it. When you get that much lead smearing something is definitely wrong. I also believe you are getting some tipping of the boolit in the sizer.

[ricklaut]

I think we're all agreeing that there is too much of a difference between what the mould is dropping and the size of the sizer... so I measured the inside of the mould. I think the pictures tell the story about why I'm getting big boolits... Looks like I'm asking the sizing die to reduce it too much.

http://www.rnlvideo.com/reloading/IMAG0211a.jpg

http://www.rnlvideo.com/reloading/IMAG0210a.jpg

This is the mould (http://www.midwayusa.com/product/266174/lee-2-cavity-bullet-mold-476-400-rf-480-ruger-475-linebaugh-476-diameter-400-grain-flat-nose) I have (supposed to drop .476). Based on the comments of others, their bullets are dropping much smaller than mine. I think I need to talk with Midway and get a replacement. I bought 3 moulds - a .358, a .452 and this one. The other two are dropping exactly as advertised.

[ricklaut]

...and a new mould is on its way from Midway. I should be reporting back in a couple of days.

[M4bushy]

I just got 2 new lee .476 molds from Midway and they do drop larger than my old lee.476 mold. Lee will replace them but I'm going to try them through the .480 to see how they shoot first.

[runfiverun]

a 480 mold size should not drop a 480 boolit.
the resized boolits just look.....well, wrong like they aren't being sized round.
more like octagon or something.

[ricklaut]

a 480 mold size should not drop a 480 boolit.
the resized boolits just look.....well, wrong like they aren't being sized round.
more like octagon or something.

It is a bit of an optical illusion... where they are resized - around the bearing surface of the boolit - they are indeed round (but they sure don't look like it in the pics!). The lead that got smeared up across the grooves and onto the ogive isn't coming up evenly. It's kind of hard to explain, but that's giving it that octagonal appearance.

M4bushy: Do you know yet what size your new Lee molds are dropping at?

Thos / 44man: I think I've ruled out the top punch. It fits the profile of the bullet nicely, and I confirmed that the boolit is sitting squarely when it first goes into the sizing die. The more that I look at it, I really think it's that .004 - .005 worth of lead getting pushed around from the mould being too big.

All - I'm pretty new here, but I REALLY appreciate all of your knowledge / time that is helping me get this figured out! Although I can't play with my .480 Ruger yet, my cast boolits for my .357 and .45 Colt are coming out marvelously! Even without the .480, I still have plenty to do to keep me from being bored (smelt 39 pounds of lead, load some precision .380 rounds, maybe cast some more .357...).

[M4bushy]

It is a bit of an optical illusion... where they are resized - around the bearing surface of the boolit - they are indeed round (but they sure don't look like it in the pics!). The lead that got smeared up across the grooves and onto the ogive isn't coming up evenly. It's kind of hard to explain, but that's giving it that octagonal appearance.

M4bushy: Do you know yet what size your new Lee molds are dropping at?.
The first batch dropped at .480-.482 after discovering this, I disassembled the mold, deburred all sharp edges. I also noticed the mold halves didn't fit tightly together. I did a little stoning in the v-grooves and lubed it good with synthetic 2 cycle oil. It is now dropping around .478


Ron

[ricklaut]

Interesting - thanks!

[44man]

It is hard to measure a round hole with calipers unless they have true knife edges.
Molds are cut a little oversize, around .002" but that depends on boolit diameter. Lead shrinks slightly when it cools and the cavity shrinks when hot.
If you took an accurate measurement of a .476" mold and it is .476", the boolits would drop at .474" so the mold should be .478"-.479" when cold. That would make boolits .476" to .477". Hard lead will grow a little as it age hardens.
A .480" mold should drop a boolit of .478" and depending on mold temp could go to .477".
Remember the hole gets SMALLER in separate blocks as it gets hot.
When I make a mold I cut the cherry .002" larger then the boolit size. After the first cast I usually find the boolit is too small so I put the cherry back in a real hot mold to remove more metal.
Now look at the caliper reading. If they have standard jaws it is measuring LESS then actual size so I figure the cavity at .483".
Much too large!

[ricklaut]

Well... the good news is that the UPS guy is working late and dropped off my replacement mold. The bad news is that it is the wrong mold in the right box. Uughh. This is frustrating. Right box, wrong mold - they sent me a 90359, which is a 300 gr .45 mold. Now, that is a boolit I could use - but I already have a different .45 mold.

Back on the phone with Midway... I REALLY wanted to make some boolits for my .480 Ruger tomorrow. Obviously that won't happen.

[M4bushy]

Both mine that I got from midway last week, are going back to lee. I bet all the ones that midway got are bad. I'm hoping that lee has some from a different lot.


Ron

[ricklaut]

Both mine that I got from midway last week, are going back to lee. I bet all the ones that midway got are bad. I'm hoping that lee has some from a different lot.


Ron

I bet you're right. Midway is now out of stock... I'm trying Midsouth.

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[DLCTEX]

The lube on the bases is caused by the rounded edges on the base. Either cast hotter or heat mould more. I don't know what size my moulds cast as they clean up nicely in the .476 die and don't lead the barrel, so I never bothered to check.

[M4bushy]

The lube on the bases is caused by the rounded edges on the base. Either cast hotter or heat mould more. I don't know what size my moulds cast as they clean up nicely in the .476 die and don't lead the barrel, so I never bothered to check.

I have another lee 476 mold that I bought last year when I started casting. This drops boolits between .4765-.477 they size nice too. The latest molds suck, they are dropping at .480+ when they are sized they smear so bad you can feel a ridge at the top of the boolit.



Ron

[DLCTEX]

Another possibility of curing the rounded bases is to either loosen the sprue plate or with a fine file, break the edge of the blocks (slightly, not much)where they meet under the sprue plate to let air escape.

[223Pitbull]

My Lee mold drops them at .479 and after I run them through the Lyman sizer they are .477.
Unsized on the left and sized on the right.
http://i264.photobucket.com/albums/ii166/223Pitbull/DSCF1914.jpg

[MtGun44]

It looks like the sizer is 'fluted' slightly, perhaps a reamer chattered or something. Looks
like it is not a smooth circle, sizing in lines, not sizing in lines.

Bill

[warf73]

Sure wish you guys didn't send off your molds that are dropping .480" I could use them. I have 2 lee molds that drop .476~.477" and I need .478" to fill my cylinders.

[M4bushy]

Sure wish you guys didn't send off your molds that are dropping .480" I could use them. I have 2 lee molds that drop .476~.477" and I need .478" to fill my cylinders.

I haven't returned them yet. I've got $43.00 into them if you want them let me know......

Ron

[ricklaut]

Alright - we're making progress... got the new mold; they're dropping at about .478 - .479 now. Much better than the other mold. Using the same sizer as before, here's what I'm getting:

http://www.rnlvideo.com/reloading/IMAG0222a.jpg

I need to take better pictures... the pictures & real life aren't quite the same.

They're not perfect yet - still working on it, but at least I feel more comfortable loading a few up (compared to my original batch). I think it's obvious that the sizer isn't working as hard and pushing as much lead around.

Again - thanks for all of the help as I work through this!

[M4bushy]

Alright - we're making progress... got the new mold; they're dropping at about .478 - .479 now. Much better than the other mold. Using the same sizer as before, here's what I'm getting:

http://www.rnlvideo.com/reloading/IMAG0222a.jpg

I need to take better pictures... the pictures & real life aren't quite the same.

They're not perfect yet - still working on it, but at least I feel more comfortable loading a few up (compared to my original batch). I think it's obvious that the sizer isn't working as hard and pushing as much lead around.

Again - thanks for all of the help as I work through this!

Are you lubing the crimp grooves on purpose? I find I have plenty of Lube using only the lube grooves.


Ron

[ricklaut]

I was trying to keep it out of the top groove, but I grabbed one that I did before I adjusted the sizer up more. Started off using the "more is better" principle I guess you could say :).

[Lefty SRH]

What lube is that?

[ricklaut]

What lube is that?

Lyman Orange Magic. Remembering that I don't know what I don't know yet, I'm not real impressed with it. Lube experimentation will follow.

[Lefty SRH]

I'm pretty happy with my home brew even in my .480.
I'm not knocking your lube, I'm new to casting also. It looked like bore butter for black powder is reason I was asking. Bore Butter is VERY yellow colored.

[ricklaut]

The picture makes it look more yellow than it really is. It is really hard... and I'm not using a heater.

[M4bushy]

The picture makes it look more yellow than it really is. It is really hard... and I'm not using a heater.

Be careful with orange magic unheated, it is so hard you can snap the lube screw out of the casting. I too use orange magic it is the lube that came with my sizer and it seems to work for me. It also looks like a Pain to remove it from the sizer to try another lube.


Ron

[skandic]

Rick try some LBT soft blue as it flows perfectly with no heat in my 4500 and is a high quality lube

[ricklaut]

Be careful with orange magic unheated, it is so hard you can snap the lube screw out of the casting. I too use orange magic it is the lube that came with my sizer and it seems to work for me. It also looks like a Pain to remove it from the sizer to try another lube.


Ron

That brings up a question I've been wondering about... how DO you go about removing one kind of lube from these things in order to switch out...?

[ricklaut]

Rick try some LBT soft blue as it flows perfectly with no heat in my 4500 and is a high quality lube

Thanks - I just read up on it and may have to try some. Out of curiosity, how long does a stick last?

[Bwana]

Only thing I have to offer on the boolit size is to check your mold faces and make sure there are no bits of lead or burrs which could prevent the mold from closing completely. The main thing that concerns me is the appearence of the top of your mold. With the amount of what appears to be scoring going on that mold won't last long. I use beeswax to lube my molds and others use other lubes. The point being you need to lube your mold and keep lead buildup off the plate.

[M4bushy]

That brings up a question I've been wondering about... how DO you go about removing one kind of lube from these things in order to switch out...?

Heat gun or propane torch would be my course of action.

[ricklaut]

Thanks, Bwana - I'll keep an eye on that with this new mold and will make sure it's maintained well.

I had a chance to go test 10 of these .480 cast boolits today :). Finally! They did good - I only had 25 yards available and am still getting used to this thing, but I'm happy. I ended up with a vertical string that was about 3 inches long. Between me likely developing a recoil induced flinch (haven't done much big bore shooting before this) and the new loads, I have some work to do. But - they came out the right end of the revolver.

Again - THANKS to everyone who has offered advice / encouragement / etc!

[ricklaut]

Heat gun or propane torch would be my course of action.

Uugh. Ok.

[DLCTEX]

Boiling the lubesizer will remove the lube and the lube can be reclaimed after it cools. Just melt it and pour into the reservoir to reuse it.

[M4bushy]

Boiling the lubesizer will remove the lube and the lube can be reclaimed after it cools. Just melt it and pour into the reservoir to reuse it.

So the lube won't combine/ dilute in the water? I never though of reclaiming the lube, this is good to know.


Ron