500 S&W water test

[375RUGER]

Shot the 500 saturday in my homemade water trough, lined with gallon jugs of water. 2 shots went through 5 full gallons of water and were stopped by the 6th.
1 shot went through 7 gallons of water and embedded into the dirt bank 6 feet behind and we didn't recover the bullet.
Caught it all on video too.
These were 325g JHP of some factory load that came with the gun. Can't wait to see what happens when I start loading 400 and 440s.

Anybody else do water tests or gelatin or newsprint?

My .44s will always be my favorite but this .500 sure is a lot of fun.

[Doc_Stihl]

You should try out the 700's. :)

[44man]

You should try out the 700's. :)
We just did and penetration was not any better and all boolits turned and tried to exit the top of wet newspaper.
We do a lot for fun but so far the .475 with a 420 gr was the most fun with water jugs. It blew 4 jugs sky high, split 2 more and exited the 14th jug never to be found.
The .500 JRH with a 440 gr boolit made 30 or 32" in wet paper and stayed straight. A gallon jug of water hit with it at 100 yards just explodes.
I love to shoot bottles of water but you sure need a lot of them! :drinks:

[ebner glocken]

Exactly how was you loading that 440? Is it the lee 440? My itch to get that JRH cylinder is getting much worse. You guys are terrible at feeding an addiction. :smile:

Ebner

[44man]

Exactly how was you loading that 440? Is it the lee 440? My itch to get that JRH cylinder is getting much worse. You guys are terrible at feeding an addiction. :smile:

Ebner
I made my mold and it is almost a WFN, 79% meplat. I use 29.5 gr of 296 and a Fed 155 primer. Water dropped WW, Felix lube, sized .501. It is somewhere near 1350 fps, I didn't chrono it but another close boolit does that. This is the boolit I shot a one hole group with at 50 yards.
Notice the thin base band---Crazy, isn't it but it is like my .475 boolit that shoots so good.
The Lee will work but needs those pure gold GC's! :veryconfu

[44man]

Anyone is free to copy my boolit from the picture.
I have to warn you if you shoot deer with it. Make sure it is a side shot. The doe I fooled into walking to me was hit in the neck at 30 yards, destroyed half a shoulder, lungs, liver, stomach and half the intestines before it left her side. The insides were a green slurry. :shock:

[x101airborne]

Say, 44 man,,,,,

I am loading for several beowulf rifles and for cast data I am using 500 smith data minus 10 percent. your load seems like it would work great in my rifles. PM inbound.

[375RUGER]

You should try out the 700's. :)

Yeh, I want to get some of those and load 'em up, just to have around. Just in case.
I think I want 440 boolits for my 'everyday load'.

[Whitworth]

Yeh, I want to get some of those and load 'em up, just to have around. Just in case.
I think I want 440 boolits for my 'everyday load'.

Don't waste your time or money. They don't track straight (not out of my 6.6-inch X-frame). Lighter bullets we tested penetrated deeper and went straight. Too much of a good thing IMO.

The load that 44man speaks of runs right at 1,350 fps out of my 6.5-inch BFR.

[saz]

I have not tested my 550gr or the Lee 440 for penetration yet, but I definately plan on it when I get back. Do yall think that the straighter penetration is from the smaller meplat, lighter weight or am I way off base.

BTW, if there is anyone out there lookng for a 500 JRH, Buds guns has a 5.5" JRH for $871......

That is the only place I have seen that actually stocks the JRH.

[Beagler]

here is a Lee 440 grain (SW500) I shot outa my Handi Rifle at 50 yards. I dug it outa dry oak round. shot it across the grain and made it 10.5 inches in. Cast out of straight WW and water quenched.

[44man]

I have not tested my 550gr or the Lee 440 for penetration yet, but I definately plan on it when I get back. Do yall think that the straighter penetration is from the smaller meplat, lighter weight or am I way off base.

BTW, if there is anyone out there lookng for a 500 JRH, Buds guns has a 5.5" JRH for $871......

That is the only place I have seen that actually stocks the JRH.
Not tracking is from a loss of stability with the rate of twist.
A lot of our military guns are now very fast twists so bullets tumble in humans to get around expanding bullet restrictions. Another way around it is calibers and energy so huge, like the .50 BMG, that it does not matter were the bullet goes. But a boolit not spinning enough goes off course. Off course is different and the boolit can go where you don't want it to go, like through guts. Off course also limits penetration the same as a tumbling bullet.
Now think about it. If a boolit goes 37" in wet paper but you shoot deer a foot wide, the extra penetration means nothing as does the energy loss. What counts is the energy applied in the foot wide deer.
If the bullet just dropped out on the other side of the deer after big damage, is it less dead then the bullet that went through 5 houses and a truck on the other side?
No, but the .50 BMG will leave you meat to pick up with a sponge.
Large, tough animals need more penetration but it still comes down to what the bullet did inside first.
Put up a long line of water jugs. A bullet goes all the way through and just splits the first jug but goes 30"--no good for hunting.
The next blows one jug and goes 30"---better.
The next blows 4 jugs and still goes 30", that will kill anything.
If applied energy did not count we could kill animals in their tracks with a .45 caliber stick (better then a .44) by pushing it through with a "C" clamp.
Push the .45 stick with a slow press and there is no limit to penetration but will it kill fast?
My 45-70 hard boolit is like the first in the water jugs, it is not leaving energy where needed but penetrates like crazy.
There is no connection. I need to shoot it slower or much faster.

[MaxEnergy]

Not tracking Large, tough animals need more penetration but it still comes down to what the bullet did inside first.
If applied energy did not count we could kill animals in their tracks with a .45 caliber stick (better then a .44) by pushing it through with a "C" clamp.
Push the .45 stick with a slow press and there is no limit to penetration but will it kill fast?
My 45-70 hard boolit is like the first in the water jugs, it is not leaving energy where needed but penetrates like crazy.
There is no connection. I need to shoot it slower or much faster.

applied energy in the animal? huh? sounds more like voodoo then science. if your 4570 isn't doin' the deed, i would blame shot placement first

[44man]

applied energy in the animal? huh? sounds more like voodoo then science. if your 4570 isn't doin' the deed, i would blame shot placement first
Nope, right behind the shoulders, double lung shots. I seen the hits.
Remember, this is a revolver with hard boolits at 1632 FPS.
I won't get farther into it, lost two deer, the rest went 200 yards with a small hole in both lungs. I went to an expanding boolit, no more loss and quick kills.

[MaxEnergy]

Nope, right behind the shoulders, double lung shots. I seen the hits.
Remember, this is a revolver with hard boolits at 1632 FPS.
I won't get farther into it, lost two deer, the rest went 200 yards with a small hole in both lungs. I went to an expanding boolit, no more loss and quick kills.

why do you believe that a boolit stops damaging the animal if going fast? this makes no sense and is not logical.

[44man]

why do you believe that a boolit stops damaging the animal if going fast? this makes no sense and is not logical.
I think it is a dead spot. Slower kills just great at 1300 or so but the same boolit at 1600 or so does not. Speed it way up and it might be super.
I can not explain it but after many deer shot, I see it.
I think the pressure wave moves tissue out of the way and is not violent enough to destroy it.
Only with hard lead and I tried a WFN and it did the same. Expansion changed it all and I even ruined half a deer.
Just changing alloy with the 45-70 and I can lose half the meat.
It seems to be something with the hard boolit.
Seems crazy because I killed many, many deer with the .44 and .45 so I also thought the faster 45-70 revolver would be better. I was shocked to say the least. I had to go to the 300 gr Hornady one year and to a Babore 420 gr, 50-50 hollow point the next deer. That one made a huge mess.
No, I can not explain it. I will not shoot at deer with my hard boolits anymore with the 45-70 at that velocity.

[subsonic]

I have not tested my 550gr or the Lee 440 for penetration yet, but I definately plan on it when I get back. Do yall think that the straighter penetration is from the smaller meplat, lighter weight or am I way off base.

BTW, if there is anyone out there lookng for a 500 JRH, Buds guns has a 5.5" JRH for $871......

That is the only place I have seen that actually stocks the JRH.

http://www.glockfaq.com/item/554590_Magnum_Research_Handguns_Pistols_MAG_BFR500 JRH_500_JRH_5_5IN_SS.aspx

http://www.thegunsource.com/item/554590_Magnum_Research_Handguns_Pistols_MAG_BFR500 JRH_500_JRH_5_5IN_SS.aspx

The neat part is that MR says they have not shipped any! [smilie=l:

I emailed to confirm whether they are truely 5.5" from the frame or cylinder, and they said none exist. They are all listed as .500 S&W as the caliber on those 3 sights. Kinda maybe not what we think they are?

I was already digging around for my credit card!:holysheep

[subsonic]

http://grabagun.com/catalog/product/view/id/53981
Out of stock.

[subsonic]

Bud's says they cannot verify caliber and won't look at the barrel length either. "We don't open the boxes". MR says they can't tell me what it is without a serial number. Bud's is now closed.

Guess they can keep them.

:roll::rolleyes::takinWiz:

You might think I had learned my lesson with BFRs.

[MaxEnergy]

I think it is a dead spot. Slower kills just great at 1300 or so but the same boolit at 1600 or so does not. Speed it way up and it might be super.
I can not explain it but after many deer shot, I see it.
I think the pressure wave moves tissue out of the way and is not violent enough to destroy it.
Only with hard lead and I tried a WFN and it did the same. Expansion changed it all and I even ruined half a deer.
Just changing alloy with the 45-70 and I can lose half the meat.
It seems to be something with the hard boolit.
Seems crazy because I killed many, many deer with the .44 and .45 so I also thought the faster 45-70 revolver would be better. I was shocked to say the least. I had to go to the 300 gr Hornady one year and to a Babore 420 gr, 50-50 hollow point the next deer. That one made a huge mess.
No, I can not explain it. I will not shoot at deer with my hard boolits anymore with the 45-70 at that velocity.

sounds like incorrect conclusion based on small sample. no support from science on this theory. the boolit doesn't stop making damage because it is running more than 1300. strange theory 44man!

[MajorJim]

applied energy in the animal? huh? sounds more like voodoo then science. if your 4570 isn't doin' the deed, i would blame shot placement first


Actually, it's not voodoo.

In the study of terminal ballistics, beginning with Fackler and continuing with Doctor Roberts (USN), there has been a ton of research on the issue.

Here is a sample: http://ammo.ar15.com/project/Self_Defense_Ammo_FAQ/index.htm

As a bullet slows down, it loses its stability, gyrates, and causes more tissue damage, thus creating a larger cavity. The trick is for that deceleration to take place inside of the animal.

Hollow points are a great example - they almost act like reverse parachutes, not only slowing the bullet down but creating a larger wound channel (sectional density).

A solid or high velocity bullet will certainly hit its mark, but if a pass through, will not stop an animal unless the hit is to the heart of the CNS. In other words, it is like bow hunting where the animal bleeds out. And a 1.5 inch arrow head is going to do more damage than a .45" hole. A bigger hole is always better when the goal is "terminal".

Spire point bullets have an advantage in that when they hit something or start to slow down, they tumble end over end. Of course, lots of ruined meat from that.

If you're interested, take a look at the tests done on the 6.8 SPC in comparison to the 5.56 and the 7.62.

Big difference between hole punching and killing.

[MaxEnergy]

Actually, it's not voodoo.

In the study of terminal ballistics, beginning with Fackler and continuing with Doctor Roberts (USN), there has been a ton of research on the issue.

Here is a sample: http://ammo.ar15.com/project/Self_Defense_Ammo_FAQ/index.htm

As a bullet slows down, it loses its stability, gyrates, and causes more tissue damage, thus creating a larger cavity. The trick is for that deceleration to take place inside of the animal.

Hollow points are a great example - they almost act like reverse parachutes, not only slowing the bullet down but creating a larger wound channel (sectional density).

A solid or high velocity bullet will certainly hit its mark, but if a pass through, will not stop an animal unless the hit is to the heart of the CNS. In other words, it is like bow hunting where the animal bleeds out. And a 1.5 inch arrow head is going to do more damage than a .45" hole. A bigger hole is always better when the goal is "terminal".

Spire point bullets have an advantage in that when they hit something or start to slow down, they tumble end over end. Of course, lots of ruined meat from that.

If you're interested, take a look at the tests done on the 6.8 SPC in comparison to the 5.56 and the 7.62.

Big difference between hole punching and killing.

i have read fackler and duncan macpherson. go back and read what 44man wrote. he says his boolits stop doing damage over 1300 fps. this doesnt happen in my experience

[subsonic]

It's odd, and I agree there are no facts to support it. But it's not the first time I've heard of it and Veral even mentions something similar in his "Cast with Jacketed Performance" book. He explains it as excessive cavitation reducing blood flow and encouragin clotting.

All I can say is that knowing how many deer 44man has kilt, I would not doubt *something* is happening that is causing his .45-70 to not kill as well as his .44

[jwp475]

It's odd, and I agree there are no facts to support it. But it's not the first time I've heard of it and Veral even mentions something similar in his "Cast with Jacketed Performance" book. He explains it as excessive cavitation reducing blood flow and encouragin clotting.

All I can say is that knowing how many deer 44man has kilt, I would not doubt *something* is happening that is causing his .45-70 to not kill as well as his .44



Acctually Veral says that too large of a wound channel kills slower with more tracking. Once one has achieved a large enough of a wound channel to bring the blood pressure to zero a larger one does not kill any faster.

The wound channel is created by 1-the amount of direct applied pressure, 2- the amount of hydraulic pressure (the hiogher the velocity the higher the hydraulic pressure) 3-the amount of momentum transfered

Duncan McPhearson's book is a great source of information on the subject. Since Mr. McPhearson is the only person to develope a math model that accurately predicts the depth of penetration and wound channel size in test media, I tend to believe what he has to say on the subject and so does Dr. Martin Fackler

http://i33.photobucket.com/albums/d62/jwp475/DuncanMacPhearson.jpg


As you can see by the diagram below that energy is not conserved in an inelastic collision

http://i33.photobucket.com/albums/d62/jwp475/BallisticsPendulum.gif

[subsonic]

Deer ain't made of test media.

What do those fellows say causes bullets or boolits to veer off course in soft tissue?

There are no nerves or blood vessels in test media and seldom bones, hair, sacks of air, or cavities filled with liquid.

I want to see more about that yaw, distance from muzzle, bullets going to sleep, and stability in meat.

[subsonic]

Why does a dead blow hammer transfer more force than a sledge hammer of the same weight and length?

[jwp475]

Deer ain't made of test media.

What do those fellows say causes bullets or boolits to veer off course in soft tissue?

There are no nerves or blood vessels in test media and seldom bones, hair, sacks of air, or cavities filled with liquid.

I want to see more about that yaw, distance from muzzle, bullets going to sleep, and stability in meat.



Read the book. Science doesn't change because of the target. Pointed bullets that fail to expand do not track straight in tissue or test media. Ballistics gelatin has been chosen as the professionals test media because it best simulates real tissue for bullets initial testing. All hunting bullets final testing is in the field. Bullets that are not Fully stable do not track straight in tissue. Bullets that veer off course, miss the vitals which is not a good thing

[saz]

http://www.glockfaq.com/item/554590_Magnum_Research_Handguns_Pistols_MAG_BFR500 JRH_500_JRH_5_5IN_SS.aspx

http://www.thegunsource.com/item/554590_Magnum_Research_Handguns_Pistols_MAG_BFR500 JRH_500_JRH_5_5IN_SS.aspx

The neat part is that MR says they have not shipped any! [smilie=l:

I emailed to confirm whether they are truely 5.5" from the frame or cylinder, and they said none exist. They are all listed as .500 S&W as the caliber on those 3 sights. Kinda maybe not what we think they are?

I was already digging around for my credit card!:holysheep

Yeah, I was thinking that it was a misprint but the item number is BFR500JRH. I can see a typo in the description that some kid getting paid minimum wage typed up, but not the Item number. Id love to see one. Would be one heck of a carry gun in bear country.

44Man,
"Now think about it. If a boolit goes 37" in wet paper but you shoot deer a foot wide, the extra penetration means nothing as does the energy loss. What counts is the energy applied in the foot wide deer.
If the bullet just dropped out on the other side of the deer after big damage, is it less dead then the bullet that went through 5 houses and a truck on the other side?
No, but the .50 BMG will leave you meat to pick up with a sponge.
Large, tough animals need more penetration but it still comes down to what the bullet did inside first.
Put up a long line of water jugs. A bullet goes all the way through and just splits the first jug but goes 30"--no good for hunting.
The next blows one jug and goes 30"---better.
The next blows 4 jugs and still goes 30", that will kill anything."

I agree with you on the subject of deer. Absolutely overkill with something that will penetrate 37" or so. But the desired results need to match the animal you are shooting at. I bought that 500 with an underlying intention- Kodiak/coastal Brown Bear. They are EXTREMELY tough and hard to kill at times. I have seen big brownies take shots and run away that you wouldnt think possible for any animal on earth to survive. In that case, penetration is key just to get to the vitals depending on the shot angle.

[375RUGER]

I think we need some test elephants and rhinos, that's the only way we're going to settle this.

44man, you are on the money with this one. Good case in point is the first Nosler Ballistic Tips. They were designed as a target bullet. When they started making hunting bullets with a poly tip, there were some that used their old stock of BT bullets and found they punched a nice clean hole thru a deer. This was partly Noslers fault because they called them all ballistic tips. Those target bullets penetrate deep but don't do a lot of damage.
We like bullets or boolits that expend their energy in the target and then penetrate deep enough to leave a place for the extra blood to spill out. The first couple of jugs filled with water will tell you about the bullets killing ability or ability to expand in flesh. And the extra jugs are just there to slow it down enough to recover it.
I like penetration as much as the next guy but it's the first 12" that tell the real story. Not long ago I shot 2 wild dogs at my place. The first one fell to my 110g 38special snubby, it was what I had when I pulled in the drive. First dog fell like a rock. I already knew what the potential was with this bullet/load. I had tested it in wet news print and was really impressed with the "wound channel" in the wet paper. the main reason for my testing was to make sure that I could depend on such a light bullet in case of 2 legged predators. Second dog was with 22-250 @ 250 yds as the rest of them were making for the safe zone which was a lot further out than they thought.
Penetration is prefered when all the targets cooperate and stand in single file.

[saz]

I think we need some test elephants and rhinos, that's the only way we're going to settle this.

Penetration is prefered when all the targets cooperate and stand in single file.

Too funny! Another point is look what a muzzleloader will do. The bull moose in my avatar fell to a muzzleloader loaded with a pure lead conical weighing in at 495grs moving at about 1050fps. That shot was taken at 115 yards and IMPRESSIVE penetration. Dead on his feet, just didnt know it yet.

I am hoping to have some real world testing when I get back. I will be leaving AK soon after and I am not going without a bear. And BTW, I have applied for my Kodiak tag. Fingers crossed.....

[44man]

i have read fackler and duncan macpherson. go back and read what 44man wrote. he says his boolits stop doing damage over 1300 fps. this doesnt happen in my experience
Not over 1300 fps exactly, just at about 1600-1630 fps. but I have no idea what each side of this does with a hard boolit.
I only can say what my 45-70 BFR does.
When I open a deer it is a hole through the lungs with very little trauma around the hole. Lungs actually look healthy except for the hole.

[Silver Jack Hammer]

I’ve tested a lot of bullets in water by just using cardboard boxes placed end to end lined with plastic painter’s drop clothes from the hardware store for just a couple of dollars. It’s pretty easy to catch .45 ACP hollowpoints and .223 rounds, they penetrate about 20 to 25 inches. It took several attempts to catch a .45 Long Colt 454190 ww over 8.7 gr of Unique at 900 fps through my 7 ½” Colt SAA. Finally caught one. It measured 56 inches of penetration in water. I figure water about doubles the penetration I could expect from ballistic gelatin, but the only gelatin tests I have seen are at ranges where the good ‘ol boys from Speer bring their semi-trailer with a kitchen and a refrigerator out on the road. Too much work for me.
I’ve been to Fackler and Roberts seminars, they said bullets in the air are stabilized like a child’s top spinning on the floor, touch the side of the top at it wobbles and falls over. Bullets do the same thing when they enter a media like tissue. They wobble, rifle boolits usually swap ends because the base has more weight than the point. The location along the wound track at which bullets wobble is where we see the temporary cavity. I can’t remember if my 454190 @ 900 fps came to rest backwards or not. Usually the .223 bullets are somewhat fragmented, of course the new fancy hollowpoints are all opened up. I’ve written down the results and kept the bullets along with a card with data from the ammo in baggies for future reference. We get different ammo issued off the State bid and then what gets turned in to the property room at the law enforcement agency I work for. One 20 year old box of Cor-Bon .45 ACP resulted in 4 inches of penetration in water, the bullet completely fragmented.
44man, that is one fine looking boolit in your 1/16/2012 pic.

[jwp475]

Not over 1300 fps exactly, just at about 1600-1630 fps. but I have no idea what each side of this does with a hard boolit.
I only can say what my 45-70 BFR does.
When I open a deer it is a hole through the lungs with very little trauma around the hole. Lungs actually look healthy except for the hole.



This flies in the face of all known science. The faster the velocity the higher the hydraulic pressure and hydraulic pressure is a factor that plays a roll in creating the wound channel. There is absolutely no way that increasing the hydraulic pressure results in less damage. No way no how is that possible

[MaxEnergy]

i have to agree with you jwp457.

[subsonic]

I would say that we don't know what happens exactly on the nose of a non expandin flat point. I would like to see some high speed photog of some WFNs and LFNs hitting clear "test medium".

I am pretty sure the angle of spray off of the nose changes with impact velocity and shape of the projectile.

You guys do know about tissue spray working to cut other tissue, right?

Exactly why is it that a 12ga slug will penetrate several (like 30) feet of water very straightly, but a FMJ from a pistol at similar velocity will not.

Does it travel in an open cavity created by it's own spray?

[MajorJim]

A couple of my favorites:



MAJOR MISCONCEPTIONS
1. Idolatry of Velocity:
A widespread dogma claims that wounds caused by
"high-velocity" projectiles must be treated by extensive
excision of tissue around the missile path (34-40),
whereas those caused by 'low-velocity" missiles need
little or no treatment (41, 42). Two half-truths nurture
this error. The first of these, *Cavitation is a
ballistic phenomenon associated with very high velocity
missiles" (7), is easily disproved. The wound profile in
Fig 1 shows a very substantial temporary cavity produced
by a "low-velocity" bullet. This bullet, fired from the
Vetterli rifle at 1357 ft/s (414 m/s), has ballistic
characteristics typical of those used by military forces
in the latter half of the nineteenth century. It is the
same bullet used by Theodor Kocher for most of his wound
ballistics studies (23-27). It is obvious from this wound
profile that temporary cavitation is not, as popularly
belivved, a modern phenomenon associated exclusively with
projectiles of "high velocity.'

http://www.dtic.mil/cgi-bin/GetTRDoc?AD=ada183285.pdf&Location=U2&doc=GetTRDoc.pdf

And a little more color. Injury described as consistent with a high velocity missile injury was actually caused by a low velocity, large mass, washing machine. Dr. Lindsey's conclusion - treat the wound, not the bullet.


http://ad-teaching.informatik.uni-freiburg.de/zbmed/LWW/gv023/00005373/00005373-198012000-00012.pdf

[44man]

MajorJim, good info.
I see that with a round ball from a slow muzzle loader and even a .45 flintlock does horrible damage. The .54 round ball is akin to a .300 Weatherby with bone and tissue damage. I might even say it is a lot worse.
Lung tissue is flexible, not like water or gel, lots of air. Air will compress and water will not.
If a pressure wave not violent enough enters, it will move tissue away from the primary wound channel into a secondary that will return to position.
Increase the violence of the wave and the primary channel will get much larger.
Decrease the velocity and less tissue is moved out of the way of the boolit path resulting in a larger primary again.
Some think energy dump will instantly destroy the entire lungs from "ripple effect", not so. The right energy will make a large primary and the rest of the lungs are flooded with blood loss.
Take the lungs from a deer after a good energy transfer and wash them off. They look pretty good except for the huge primary damage.
Deer shot with the hard WLN and WFN from my 45-70 BFR through both lungs have nice pink lungs and little blood flooding.
These deer die from blood loss out the holes, not drowning in their own blood.
Deer shot with the right gun will spray blood from the nose and mouth, mine had clean noses. Just pretty holes through both pretty lungs.
But book learning says I am wrong.
I have shot 7 deer with this gun and hard boolits, lost 2 and none of the rest went less then 200 yards. Only a softer boolit put the rest shot with it down fast.
To continue this folly of using the wrong alloy and depending on a flat meplat has gone out of my playbook.
My next work is to make a perfect soft nose, hard drive band boolit.
I never posted this for arguments, I posted because I opened deer and inspected the insides to see what the boolit did. It has been consistent and I am too stupid for book larnin! :-) That has led me astray.

[MaxEnergy]

MajorJim, good info.But book learning says I am wrong.
It has been consistent and I am too stupid for book larnin! :-) That has led me astray.

dont be upset or bitter you can always go back to school:bigsmyl2:

[44man]

dont be upset or bitter you can always go back to school:bigsmyl2:
I like you! :mrgreen:

[MaxEnergy]

I like you! :mrgreen:

im falttered but im already spoken for - by a woman :mrgreen:

[warf73]

44man your post #37 got me to thinking.
How far away were these deer shot at? What was the beginning fps (I'm guessing you chrony at 10 feet from muzzle) of these boolits.

The reason I ask is you might be going slower than you think on impact, resulting in bad boolit performance.

Have you thought about shooting over your chronograph at 100 yards to see what fps your boolits are going at that range?

[7br]

I seem to remember watching a History channel show about snipers. They said the insurgents moved from 200 yards out to 700 yards. The sniper said that at 700 yards, the 308 would do more damage than at 200 yards.

[44man]

44man your post #37 got me to thinking.
How far away were these deer shot at? What was the beginning fps (I'm guessing you chrony at 10 feet from muzzle) of these boolits.

The reason I ask is you might be going slower than you think on impact, resulting in bad boolit performance.

Have you thought about shooting over your chronograph at 100 yards to see what fps your boolits are going at that range?
20 to 25 yards most. 1632 fps at 10'.
I am sure a longer shot would have done a lot more damage.
I do not have a problem with the .45 Colt at 1160 fps. It is better then the 45-70. I have dropped deer at 100 with the Colt and the .44.
If I just take longer shots so the 45-70 boolit has slowed it would do better and maybe if I take the velocity much higher in a rifle it would do better.
I don't have an answer, I see what I see. That is all I relate but get a lot of resistance for some reason. I would love someone to test exactly what I use and post without quoting books.
I would not want someone breaking both shoulders either, I like shoulder meat. Shoot deer behind the shoulder. If the boolit works, it does not need bone.

[jwp475]

No way that less velocity will do more damage with a rib cage shot into the lungs with the same bullet simply not possible no way no how

[warf73]

Ya at 20-25 yards that boolit is still moving really fast, that shoots my theory out the window.
My thought was if it was moving to slow it was acting like an FMJ and just poking threw the deer and not causing trauma to the animal( like you said nice holes in the lungs but no damage to them).

[Whitworth]

Ya at 20-25 yards that boolit is still moving really fast, that shoots my theory out the window.
My thought was if it was moving to slow it was acting like an FMJ and just poking threw the deer and not causing trauma to the animal( like you said nice holes in the lungs but no damage to them).

My favorite .500 Linebaugh load exits the barrel at less than 1,200 fps and it does ungodly damage to animal flesh and bone.

[subsonic]

No way that less velocity will do more damage with a rib cage shot into the lungs with the same bullet simply not possible no way no how

LOL!:mrgreen:

What if one hits a rib and the other doesn't?

What if the bullet is too frangible for the higher impact speed?
Even a V-max will penetrate deep if you slow it down.
Even a decent big game bullet will blow up if the impact speed is high enough.

Too many what ifs that will prove that statement questionable.

[jwp475]

LOL!:mrgreen:

What if one hits a rib and the other doesn't?

What if the bullet is too frangible for the higher impact speed?
Even a V-max will penetrate deep if you slow it down.
Even a decent big game bullet will blow up if the impact speed is high enough.

Too many what ifs that will prove that statement questionable.




All of the scenarios that you pose do not change the fact that the higher velocity will create the most wound trauma with the same bullet always has and always will

[warf73]

My favorite .500 Linebaugh load exits the barrel at less than 1,200 fps and it does ungodly damage to animal flesh and bone.

LOL I bet it does.
My thought was under 800fps at 100+ yards.
I've seen bullets act like FMJ's if going to slow.
What kind of penetration are you all getting in wet news print at 100 yards with those loads.

[Whitworth]

LOL I bet it does.
My thought was under 800fps at 100+ yards.
I've seen bullets act like FMJ's if going to slow.
What kind of penetration are you all getting in wet news print at 100 yards with those loads.

I don't know how deep in wetpack at 100 yards, but I know they will exit a moose at more than 100 yards and leave a trail of destruction!

http://i47.photobucket.com/albums/f196/MarkoR/P1010649.jpg

[warf73]

All of the scenarios that you pose do not change the fact that the higher velocity will create the most wound trauma with the same bullet always has and always will

That is false to a degree, I've read way to may books on dangerous game were super fast loads didn't go deep enough to penetrate the animal to hit vitals. The bullet was moving so fast and it dumped its load in the first few inches on impact. But we are talking deer not cape buffalo :)

[warf73]

I don't know how deep in wetpack at 100 yards, but I know they will exit a moose at more than 100 yards and leave a trail of destruction!

http://i47.photobucket.com/albums/f196/MarkoR/P1010649.jpg

Wounder if a 480 Ruger would do the same...... Whitworth you have any rouge mouse (moose even) around for me to try that out :bigsmyl2:

[Whitworth]

Mouse or moose??:bigsmyl2:

.480 will do the deed, no problem!

[warf73]

moose :)

[jwp475]

That is false to a degree, I've read way to may books on dangerous game were super fast loads didn't go deep enough to penetrate the animal to hit vitals. The bullet was moving so fast and it dumped its load in the first few inches on impact. But we are talking deer not cape buffalo :)



If one exceeds the velocity limits of the projectile then it will loose it's form and penetration will decrease, but the wound damage will be greater in the distance that the bullet traveled in the animal and/or test media


Of course the claim in this thread is that the faster bullet does less damage in deer. This of course is incorrect

2 bullets of equal weight, shape and material one shot at 1350 FPS the shot at 1650 FPS. The faster bullet has more momentum, creates more hydraulic pressure on impact as well as more energy

The faster bullet has more of everything, no voodoo here the faster bullet will do more damage I've seen it in the game fields over and over and all logic, common sense and science say the same thing

[7br]

All of the scenarios that you pose do not change the fact that the higher velocity will create the most wound trauma with the same bullet always has and always will

I will agree that the higher velocity round will carry more kenetic energy and momentum to the target. I will not agree that it will deliver more energy to the target. Too many variables. Shoot an empty pop can, then shoot a pop can full of water and see what happens.

Assuming 44man is not telling us stories, his observations are that higher velocity means small holes going straight through the deer. My guess is that the higher velocity bullets remain stable going through the animal. At a lower velocity, the bullet looses stablity and tumbles through the animal.

This would also jibe with what the snipers were seeing in Iraq and Afganistan at longer ranges.

In theory, there is no difference in theory and practice. In practice, there is.

[jwp475]

I will agree that the higher velocity round will carry more kenetic energy to the target. I will not agree that it will deliver more energy to the target. Too many variables. Shoot an empty pop can, then shoot a pop can full of water and see what happens.

Assuming 44man is not telling us stories, his observations are that higher velocity means small holes going straight through the deer. My guess is that the higher velocity bullets remain stable going through the animal. At a lower velocity, the bullet looses stablity and tumbles through the animal.

This would also jibe with what the snipers were seeing in Iraq and Afganistan at longer ranges.

In theory, there is no difference in theory and practice. In practice, there is.



The faster bullet will carry more direct applied pressure, more momentum, and more hydraulic pressure to the target all of 3 essentials to produce a large wound is brought with the faster bullet. You scenario is only true if the faster bullet has a smaller meplat and therefore can't apply the direct pressure to as large of an area in the target, but that is not what this discussion is about. This discussion is about 2 bullet of identical shape and material at 2 different velocities



Our snipers shoot SMK bullets and they expand and or fragment in flesh so there is no connection there

[wtfooptimax200]

Great read...I just wish that I had enough experience with shooting handguns at deer that I could add something to the conversation!

[subsonic]

If 44man was the only credible person I had ever heard say this, I might not be inclined to beleive him. But I have heard this before too from hunters with a lot of experience shooting game.

I cannot explain it, but I can tell you that *something* is happening.

Since there is not a lot of money to be made researching this, and 99% of all the jello shootings are perpetrated with jacketed bullets, nobody is doing the research to find out what's going on.

And even with all the money to be made, they still don't have commercial jacketed bullets figured out 100%.

I don't have the means or time to conduct an exhaustive research program around cast boolit terminal performance. But it's OK. I much prefer backstraps to clear jello anyway.

[7br]

The faster bullet will carry more direct applied pressure, more momentum, and more hydraulic pressure to the target all of 3 essentials to produce a large wound is brought with the faster bullet. You scenario is only true if the faster bullet has a smaller meplat and therefore can't apply the direct pressure to as large of an area in the target, but that is not what this discussion is about. This discussion is about 2 bullet of identical shape and material at 2 different velocities


I am tracking on identical projectiles with different velocities.

You are assuming that the bullets have the same orientation going through the animal which may not be the case. If the lower velocity bullet is going sideways through the animal, you may have increased the effective meplat by about 50% . IE,
Your scenario is only true if the faster bullet has a smaller meplat. Exactly my point.

Another way to put it, which would cause more damage, an expanding bullet of the exact same weight and velocity or an non expanding bullet.

Couple of things to consider, the bullets exit the animal meaning that there is remaining energy and momentum.

[7br]

Our snipers shoot SMK bullets and they expand and or fragment in flesh so there is no connection there

If you mean Sierra Match King bullets, you will notice that Sierra does not recommend them for hunting.

[jwp475]

I am tracking on identical projectiles with different velocities.

You are assuming that the bullets have the same orientation going through the animal which may not be the case. If the lower velocity bullet is going sideways through the animal, you may had increased the effective meplat by about 50% . IE, Exactly my point.

Another way to put it, which would cause more damage, an expanding bullet of the exact same weight and velocity or an non expanding bullet.

Couple of things to consider, the bullets exit the animal meaning that there is remaining energy and momentum.

I Am assuming a properly stabilized bullet with a proper nose shape and meplat which will track straight and not tumble if a bullet tumbles penetration is very [poor and the direction the bullet takes is anyone's guess, not a good thing

We are talking about 2 bullets of identical shape and material in this thread. If ones uses a Punch Bullet one at 1350 FPS and the other at 1650 FPS the faster bullet has more momentum to transfer, will produce more hydraulic pressure and has more direct applied pressure. The faster bullet will impact with more force and the target will Punch back with more force, thus more momentum will transfer and the added hydraulic pressure will produce more wound trauma

Guys this ain't that hard, Duncan MAcPherson lays it out perfectly in this book

http://i33.photobucket.com/albums/d62/jwp475/DuncanMacPhearson.jpg

[Whitworth]

If you mean Sierra Match King bullets, you will notice that Sierra does not recommend them for hunting.

But great for hunting terrorists!:bigsmyl2:

[jwp475]

If you mean Sierra Match King bullets, you will notice that Sierra does not recommend them for hunting.



Yes, I do mean Sierra Match Kings. Sierra will never ever recommend them for hunting as long as the Military snipers are using them.

Do you want me to post the JAG ruling on the use of these bullets? The ruling readily admits that they expand and or fragment in tissue

I know this to be true because I have actually used the SMK to kill game and they doe expand/ fragment in tissue as I have seen first hand. Would you like to see pictures?

[Frank]

What if it goes through skin, muscle, bones, air, more muscle, skin? It needs liquid to make hydraulic. Right? :confused:

[jwp475]

What if it goes through skin, muscle, bones, air, more muscle, skin? It needs liquid to make hydraulic. Right? :confused:


Tissue such as muscle is a soft solid and there is plenty of liquid such as blood in the tissue. The hydraulic pressure is why a small caliber rifle bullet can in flick a large diameter wound. Also the reason that a 22-250 can blow a ground squirrel into small bits and pieces

[waksupi]

I'm not sure that this would even be related, but for some reason the term dwell time is in the back of my mind, in regards to slower bullets. I know it's a factor shooting steel, but would it relate to killing power?

[7br]

Hmm, I have been using SMK's since the 90's and as far as I know, they have never recommended them for hunting except for fur harvesting.

Now, properly stabilized bullets in the air does not mean they will be properly stabilized in flesh. It also does not mean they will be stabilized for all velocities. Loads that are extremely accurate at 25 yards can go to pot at 100 yards. ( conversely, over stabilized rounds can shoot tighter groups at longer ranges due to precession) I would also guess that a heavy bullet headed thataway is going to keep heading thataway whether it is tumbling or not. (Absent of hitting a bone, of course) Think about throwing a glass bottle. It is tumbling, but still is does not mystically wander around.

Look at the bullets on the cover of the book. The diameter to width ratio is a lot higher than the diameter to width ratio of 44man's hunting bullets. The hunting bullets will need to have either a faster twist rate or will need to be pushed faster to have the same amount of stabilization as the defensive bullets.

Frank does bring up a good point. A good chest shot will penetrate about 2 inches of meat and bone and about 10 inches of air filled lungs. Not sure where that leaves the hydraulic pressure. Really isn't much mass to react to KE or momentum either.

I seem to remember an article about a couple of ballistics experts that claimed that Billy Dixon's shot at adobe wells was impossible. A couple of long range BPCR shooters took them to tasked and empirically proved that it was possible.

http://www.thehighroad.org/archive/index.php/t-464078.html

[jwp475]

As I posted above I have shot enough bullets into game and media to understand what stabilizes a bullet in tissue and media as well as air. As I posted above a properly stabilized bullet with a proper nose shape and meplat will stay point forward as it penetrates and will be found point forward most of the time

[jwp475]

Hmm, I have been using SMK's since the 90's and as far as I know, they have never recommended them for hunting except for fur harvesting.

Now, properly stabilized bullets in the air does not mean they will be properly stabilized in flesh. It also does not mean they will be stabilized for all velocities. Loads that are extremely accurate at 25 yards can go to pot at 100 yards. ( conversely, over stabilized rounds can shoot tighter groups at longer ranges due to precession) I would also guess that a heavy bullet headed thataway is going to keep heading thataway whether it is tumbling or not. (Absent of hitting a bone, of course) Think about throwing a glass bottle. It is tumbling, but still is does not mystically wander around.

Look at the bullets on the cover of the book. The diameter to width ratio is a lot higher than the diameter to width ratio of 44man's hunting bullets. The hunting bullets will need to have either a faster twist rate or will need to be pushed faster to have the same amount of stabilization as the defensive bullets.

Frank does bring up a good point. A good chest shot will penetrate about 2 inches of meat and bone and about 10 inches of air filled lungs. Not sure where that leaves the hydraulic pressure. Really isn't much mass to react to KE or momentum either.

I seem to remember an article about a couple of ballistics experts that claimed that Billy Dixon's shot at adobe wells was impossible. A couple of long range BPCR shooters took them to tasked and empirically proved that it was possible.

http://www.thehighroad.org/archive/index.php/t-464078.html

As I posted above Sierra has never and will never recommend the SMK's for hunting as long as the military is using them as that is part of the JAG ruling that determined them to be a FMJ as far as the military is concerned

The lungs contain blood and are disrupted violently when a bullet passes through them, blood is about 90% water which is not compressible

Again, if the bullet is properly stabilized from the twist and is of of a proper shape and meplat then the bullet will penetrate STRAIGHT and will be found point forward most of the time IME in the 90 percentile range

:drinks:

[subsonic]

Just to yank this thread further off course, one of my other gun afflictions is precision rifle. I have seen both gellatin and wet paper testing of the 175 and 168 SMK. Depending mostly on the condition and dimensions of the tiny hollow point on these the can either pencil through deeply and then flip or flip soon after entry. They do not "expand" like a hunting bullet, but rather flip, bend, break and come apart like the common military FMJ.

[44man]

I get straight penetration with all calibers, the flat meplat is great. Only several things have changed that. My friend had two gut shot deer with the LBT 320 gr WLN from his .44. Both were hit in the shoulder broadside. Both boolits turned and were found in the hams. Both had wiped noses on one side.
Then I shot a large doe broadside this season with my 330 gr, 22 BHN boolit. Behind the shoulder and the boolit exited in front of the ham. It missed all of the guts and the exit hole was round and boolit size. I can't make anything of it and do not think the boolit turned. All I remember was the deer leaped hard at impact. Was the boolit going straight and she actually moved enough to alter the course of the boolit, like jumping through the boolit path? How did it miss the guts, the deer was clean inside? Lungs were destroyed only.
Veral Smith also does not agree with me. Then I went to his book and see the velocity I am using needs a 16 BHN boolit for hunting.
Well, I use 22 BHN for the accuracy. That is what everyone misses. His BHN recommendations means boolit upset, mine do not upset. Everything in his book says expansion without boolits breaking from being too hard. Mine don't break but do not expand. He has a list of BHN for each velocity that I agree with but soft takes away my accuracy. Yet changing the alloy turns the 45-70 into a meat grinder.
Do I have a "dead spot" with hardness and velocity? I think so. If I took it to 2000 fps I am sure it would become destructive the same as taking it down to 1300 fps.
I shoot too many deer with all kinds of revolvers to accept the poor performance of hard lead in the 45-70 BFR. It will get expansion or I will not shoot deer with it. I shot 5 this season but left the 45-70 at home.
Break both shoulders which I hate because that is good meat or hit the spine every time, you need not apply. I talk soft tissue damage.
A deer shot behind the shoulder with the .44, .45, .475, or .500 JRH are rendered DEAD right quick using a 22 BHN boolit.

[saz]

Just to yank this thread further off course, one of my other gun afflictions is precision rifle. I have seen both gellatin and wet paper testing of the 175 and 168 SMK. Depending mostly on the condition and dimensions of the tiny hollow point on these the can either pencil through deeply and then flip or flip soon after entry. They do not "expand" like a hunting bullet, but rather flip, bend, break and come apart like the common military FMJ.

I did a test a few years ago with my 35 whelen and barnes TSX's. I wanted to test the penetration of those compared to other "premium" bullets. The TSX is an EXCELLENT hunting bullet (not as good as cast though) and the weight retention and penetration is great. Now, if you are not familiar with the TSX, there is a very small hollow point that initiates expansion. I wanted to see what would happen if the small HP was pinched closed, say if the cartridge was dropped etc. It acted just like a FMJ and put pencil holes through my wet phone books, but went straight through. I am guessing it was because the bullet was hitting perpindicular to the target, so no slight "deflection" upon impact.

[warf73]

44man I just seen what the problem is
Break both shoulders which I hate because that is good meat your deer up north are to big meat wise lol.
That shoulder meat down here is turned into burger so even if you blood shot a 3" circle on both sides you might loose 1lb of ground meat. Not much of a loss considering the deer is within feet of were you shot it.

[44man]

44man I just seen what the problem is your deer up north are to big meat wise lol.
That shoulder meat down here is turned into burger so even if you blood shot a 3" circle on both sides you might loose 1lb of ground meat. Not much of a loss considering the deer is within feet of were you shot it.
I know but I turn the whole shoulder into BBQ or roast it. I think it is better meat then the hams.
One deer hit in the shoulder this season was bad and when skinning, I finished cutting half the shoulder off with the skin.
Another had shoulder and leg bones falling out as I skinned, The meat left was shot full of bone pieces.
I have a problem with grinding meat long before it gets put in the grinder! :x

[reader]

I bought the MacPherson's Bullet Penetration book. In fact by jwp475's recommendation here. Thanks!

MacPherson describes anomalous data with SWC bullets p. 186-193. The penetration suddenly increased anomalously after certain higher velocity threshold (e.g. 1500 fps). In addition, wound tracks were completely straight in gelatin and usual extended fracture cracks resulting from temporary cavity were missing. MacPherson states: "This confirms the low value of CDC [drag coefficient] suggested by the high penetration depths of these wound tracks". He explains this phenomen with lower bullet drag [after the higher velocity threshold] and with small differences of stability and angle of attack. He ignores these configurations from his penetration model and says high velocity SWCs have no practical use or are not effective in creating WTI [wound trauma incapacitation].

Could this data relate to the experience by 44man with the .45-70 loads? When the penetration suddenly significantly increases in regard to velocity, this would indicate less resistance. At least, this would work in the same direction 44man saw it. Any further reference about the matter would be interesting if available.

[44man]

sounds like incorrect conclusion based on small sample. no support from science on this theory. the boolit doesn't stop making damage because it is running more than 1300. strange theory 44man!
Many deer, not a small sample. I went to a softer boolit and cured it.

[MaxEnergy]

Many deer, not a small sample. I went to a softer boolit and cured it.


somewhere else you posted 7 deer -- a small sample

[MaxEnergy]

I have shot 7 deer with this gun and hard boolits, lost 2 and none of the rest went less then 200 yards. Only a softer boolit put the rest shot with it down fast.


in your own words.

[Bwana]

44man writes:

"Not tracking is from a loss of stability with the rate of twist.
A lot of our military guns are now very fast twists so bullets tumble in humans to get around expanding bullet restrictions."

Really? That's not my understanding of the situation. Of course things may be different in 44man's world. Where's that popcorn?

[reader]

Here's the rest of the story. MacPherson saw this anomaly first with a 10.08mm SWC. Penetration went suddenly trough the gelatin block at 1065 fps, when it should have been approximately a third less. This made him to arrange a special test setup for the configuration. He fired 5.54mm steel SWCs in a sabot, in order to obtain higher velocities without any deformation. The transition area of this phenomenon began at 1065 fps in the first test and with the 5.56mm bullet it began at 1100-1500 fps. Data was erratic in the transition area and one bullet trajectory was sharply curved, others straight.

He explains the theory: "The test results show that cylinders are stable in soft solid penetration at zero angle of attack because the trajectories are straight and the penetration dispersions are low. It logically follows that a symmetric bullet with a flat nose area that is "large enough" will also be stable at zero angle of attack, but may have smaller stability range than a cylinder." [...]

"The drag force on the bullet is minimum only when the bullet is near the perfect alignment condition that has been described as zero angle of attack. The drag force on the bullet during penetration increases significantly as the angle of attack increases." [...]

[...] "The existence of this stable angle of attack [non-zero] was verified by firing soft lead alloy 10.08mm semi-wadcutter bullets at velocities high enough to get some deformation (800 to 1100 ft/sec). The deformation on the shoulder of these semi-wadcutter bullets was obvious and clearly asymmetrical. These bullets had an angle of attack during penetration that was large enough for the bullet nose to shield part of the shoulder from the flow pressure." [...]

"It is not clear why the zero angle of attack point is stable throughout the wound track for the 5.54mm semi-wadcutter configuration when the initial velocity is above 1500 ft/sec. It is also not clear why a non-zero angle of attack is stable for the 5.54mm semi-wadcutter configuration when the initial velocity is below 1100 ft/sec. The combination of these two scenarios is even less explicable. It seems probable that both orientations are stable over small ranges of angle of attack, but consistency of stable point selection depending on initial velocity is unexplained. The erratic penetration in the transition velocity region is not surprising."

"It seems certain that the only stable angle of attack is non-zero for round nose, truncated cone, and 45° cone bullet configurations." [...] "The curved trajectories of these configurations are strong evidence of a stable non-zero angle of attack, but do not quantify the angle of attack contribution to drag. The angle of attack contribution to drag must be large to explain the otherwise mysterious low value of CDC [drag coefficient in the cavitation regime] for spheres (which cannot have any angle of attack effects)." [...]

"Cylinders are stable at zero angle of attack. Bullet configurations with flat nose diameter near the caliber (e.g. Keith semi-wadcutters) are probably stable at zero angle of attack and the values of CDC can be modeled as cylinders with a diameter of the flat nose face." [...]

--
Difficult to estimate if the stability explains this phenomenon completely. Interestingly, 44man also used ultra-hard boolits.

[Iron Mike Golf]

I am wondering if this threshhold velocity represents entering a supercavitation regime, dramatically lowering drag on the projectile.

[44man]

somewhere else you posted 7 deer -- a small sample
How many do I have to track over 200 yards or lose?
One is too many in my opinion. Deer are not test subjects and when something is not right, we have to quit right away.
My mistake, I seen poor results on the first deer. It was up to me to fix it but I kept trying, thinking it was just the hit position. Not so, all good right behind the shoulder, double lung hits. Opening the deer showed a nice clean hole through both lungs. Nice pink lungs with no trauma.
Yeah, I know shoot shoulders or spines but I get deer on the ground in 20 yards with arrows at those spots.

[subsonic]

Data was erratic in the transition area and one bullet trajectory was sharply curved, others straight.

Ok, I'm buying the book from Amazon. And oddly, there was a copy of Sixguns by Keith in stock for under a gazillion dollars that I picked up too. Ironic.

One of my local libraries had Sixguns and I had checked it out. People had cut pictures out of it so some of the text from the other side was missing. I will finally be able to read ALL of it!

[reader]

I am wondering if this threshhold velocity represents entering a supercavitation regime, dramatically lowering drag on the projectile.

Probably it is. The projectile would remain inside the cavitation bubble. The sharp edge seems important.

Here are few examples:
http://www.grosswildjagd.de/penetrat.htm
http://www.gsgroup.co.za/articlepvdw.html

It is interesting that MacPherson's 5.54mm SWC remained stable when the velocity slowed down to zero, assuming supercavitation.

[Iron Mike Golf]

Interesting links, reader. Thanks!

So, it would seem that knowing the velocity for supercavitation would be really useful.