38 SPL 158 Grain LSWCHP "FBI-Load" Hardness

[curioushooter]

I would like to duplicate the 38 SPL "FBI-Load." NOT +P (going ~850 FPS)

I have a Lee tumble-lube semi-wadcutter 158 grain mold. I plan on lathe boring the hollow-point with a d-bit reamer.

I have the brass, powder, etc.

The only think I do not know is exactly what is the optimal hardness. I have read it is supposed to be "soft," but are we talking pure lead soft, some admixture of pure lead and wheelwright, or something else more precise? Does anybody know the BHN of the lead alloy used? From what I understand Remington makes the FBI load still, so that bullet can be tested.

Thanks in Advance,

Anthony

[aarolar]

Watching this one closely

[MtJerry]

What do you plan on shooting it out of? A snub-nose handgun generates far less velocity (and that is the key to expansion in .38 special IMHO) than say a 4" or 6" handgun.

I am assuming you are looking for the performance (man-stopper) that has come to be known with that load. If so, you need to understand that velocity and alloy must be matched to obtain the expansion qualities of that load.

I did a good bit of alloy testing in my Ruger LCR with the Lyman 358439 (the boolit used in the old FBI load). It takes a dead-soft alloy (with enough tin to obtain good mold fill) going at least 950 fps to get reliable expansion.

Here is a link to my expereinces -
http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?t=113158

[lbaize3]

I have been having excellent luck with 4 grains of Winchester 231 powder under 158 grain SWC boolits in my 38 special loads. It does well in snub nose, 3 inch, 4 inch, 6 inch and 8 inch barrel revolvers.

[williamwaco]

I have a Lee tumble-lube semi-wadcutter 158 grain mold. I plan on lathe boring the hollow-point with a d-bit reamer.

The only think I do not know is exactly what is the optimal hardness. I have read it is supposed to be "soft," but are we talking pure lead soft, some admixture of pure lead and wheelwright, or something else more precise?

Anthony


"Soft" doesn't mean pure lead soft. You don't mention where you are going to get your alloy so I will assume maximum flexibility.

If you can, try an alloy of 20/1 lead/tin. This will have a BNH or around 10. It will be a relatively expensive alloy because of the tin cost. 30/1 lead/tin will give you around BNH 8-9. 40/1 is also a popluar old time alloy. It will be very soft.

I buy some pistol range scrap and find it is usually around BNH 9. Most of that hardness comes from antimony instead of lead. It works well in the .357 but is too hard for the .38.

In my experience, you will not get any meaningful expansion of the hollowpoint with wheel weights - BNH 12-14.

If you must start with wheel weights, try 50/50 WW/soft lead.

You will need an ultimate BNH in the range of 8 to 10 depending on barrel length.

Don't worry about leading. If they are lubricated and sized correctly they will not lead. Factory wadcutters I have tested test around BNH 6.


.

[Larry Gibson]

The "FBI 38 SPL load" is a +P load. This a 150 gr LSWC. I have pulled several Winchester bullets and they are dead soft at 5.5 -6 BHN. I use a Lyman 358477 mould and cast them of dead soft lead or at most a 40-1 lead - tin alloy. % gr of Unique give a standard 850 fps load (4" barrel) and 5.5 gr Unique boosts it to +P at 925 fps (4" barrel). Those are measured psi's with an Oehler M43 and velocities out of a 4" M15 S&W. The +P load is the same psi and velocity as the Winchester factory +P load.

Larry Gibson

[runfiverun]

40-1 was used by winchester and remington forever and a day in their lead loads.
44-40,45 colt,38,44 special, and the mags even.
i really hate to say this but lead got it's bad name from many of these factory loads...
it couldn't be the guns themselves.
or you know the 1400 fps loads.

[centershot]

+1 on what Larry said! The factory loads of this type are pure lead, or darn near so! You can cast these slugs from pure lead, just crank up the heat to get good mold fill-out. I load mine over 4.5 of bullseye, it duplicates the factory load. And yes, it leaves a small bit of lead in the barrel, just like the factory load. Easily removed!

[375RUGER]

I loaded mine with 4.1g W231 and a CCI 500, 158g ( I didn't have 150s)
It is supposed to be dead soft lead if memory serves me. And I heard it from a friend who heard it from a friend who heard it from a friend that W231 is almost identical to the origianal Winchester power used in "The Load".
I believe that Remington load you mention is one of, if not the softest bullet in this class of ammo. But I wouldn't use that bullet as the basis for hardness unless you know for certain that ammo was made per FBI specs.
probably 6 or 7 BHN is about right.

[mpmarty]

Never heard of an FBI 38spl load. Only FBI load I'm familiar with is a reduced power loading for the 10mm also known as 10 light or 40 short and weak.

[MtGun44]

I have the commercial version, reg P and +P. Rem and Win. both are dead soft lead, near
as I can tell.

Bill

[aarolar]

Why not dead soft? Your only going to shoot 5 times max 10 maybe if you have a speed loader and can use it effectively and you arn't going to lead the barrel to the point of being unusable in 10 shots...

[Got-R-Did]

Well Marty, many of us predate your obviously extensive experience; and I say that with the utmost respect for your Marine background. Started my civilian L.E.O. career with a revolver, after my .45 ACP M1911A1 carry days with the Military Police. I already felt somewhat undergunned when I went through the Academy after leaving the Army and trying to make a living outside the Military. Simply could not understand how some of my classmates could not handle the recoil of the .38 Spl. 148 gr Wadcutter target loads used for training! Once I graduated and earned my Single Officer Car status, I worked diligently to shoot my Python carry weapon with equal accuracy of my previous .45 ACP. As events in history progressed, we were allowed to carry whatever ammunition we could qualify with and I aspired to and quickly earned the right to carry the Federal 125 gr .357 Magnum load (the best of the day). When politics interfered with this and many Dept.s caved under pressure to "stop" miscreants and not neccessarily kill them, we went to the so-called FBI load. The 158 gr. LSWCHP +P gave nearly the same results of ending confrontations in our Department's encounters. This is not to be construed as an endorsement by me, as usually the subject survived the wounds. On an related track, but one that can not be covered here, the 9MM 147 Sub-Sonic FBI loads for Duty Carry semi-auto pistols were an abysmal failure.
Back to the 158 gr LSWCHP +P loads I used and shot in qualification. They were relatively soft, very accurate, and effective for the purpose of stopping the aggression of anyone on the other end of the muzzle. I have two boxes remaining from my days of actually carrying them to protect me and the Public. They have their place in this world for everyone depending on them to protect one's life. I like them because they are easy to control in smaller revolvers and they are effective in the ultimate desired end result. Better rounds out there now for self defense, yes, but for the average boolit caster that can build an unlimited supply to work with, it is still a good choice.
Got-R-Did.

[mpmarty]

No offense Got-R and thanks for the education. I have never been in Law Enforcement and had no knowledge of the specific round you discuss. I agree the 9mm is a very poor performer as carried (or used to be carried) by LEOs nationwide. This fact is the reason for the 10mm and finally the 40 S&W. I, personally still carry a 45acp but not in the 1911 as I find it just too heavy to pack around all day and feel more comfortable with an eleven round polymer snubby.

[Bret4207]

There have been several "FBI Loads" in several calibers. Some worked great, some were dismal.

Re the OP- IME a simple load of 5.0 Unique behind that 158 LSWC will do about all you could ask of a 38 Special in lighter framed guns. In K/L/N frames you can up it towards 5.5. I haven't had a lot of good results with getting HP's to open under 1K fps.

[curioushooter]

I think I will try with some pure lead and a bit of 50/50 tin/lead solder to achieve decent mold fill out per Mt. Jerry. This is exactly what I was thinking would work. It will be lubricated with Lee Liquid Alox as it is a tumble lube groove design, and it is out of a 2.5" Colt.

[fredj338]

I have the commercial version, reg P and +P. Rem and Win. both are dead soft lead, near
as I can tell.

Bill

Yep, swaged lead bullets. I have the Rem, Win & a few Federal left. All expand the same runnign +p vel within 15fps of each other. I think any diff will be in the HP shape. Nothing wrong shooting dead soft lead @ 900fps. If you add a bit of tin, like 30-1 ratio, they'll still expand down to 800fps w/ the right HP design.

[Boolseye]

I use a 50/50 mix of range lead (bhn around 12) and pure lead for my expanding bullets, but I drive them a bit hotter, 900-1000fps. They mushroom good and penetrate well, too.

[Bonz]

I've been buying the 158 gr. SWC-HP ( 5 bhn ) with gas check from Rim Rock Bullets. I would love to find a mold to make my own but no luck so far.

[bhn22]

Lyman 358156 HP. Be prepared to spend over a hundred dollars for one. Plan B: watch NOEs page for a gascheck design to come available in and RG@ configuration. Plan C: find a clean 358156 mold and send it to Hollowpoint Mold Service for conversion. You'll still have a hundred bucks in it, but that'll likely happen whatever you do.

[HiVelocity]

I would love to find a mold to make my own but no luck so far.

Lee makes a 158gr gas check design bullet that will work fine, #90322. It doesn't make much sense to spend all your hard earned money to "make" (a) custom hollow point mold(s) until you've had time to test what you've put together first and do the R&D with what you have.

I think all of us who handload pistol calibers will agree. Personally, I hand load the NOE 358-135-HP (originally for the 9mm) that drops at .358 over **gr of Titegroup or 231 powder.

HV

[Larry Gibson]

RE the 358156 HP.....I HP mine with the 1/8" Forster HP tool. Been doing that to that bullet since the early '70s. Works slightly better than Winchester or Federal 158 LSWCHPs +P (the "FBI load" back in the day......) at the same velocity from a 4" M15 (930 fps) because I can tailor the HP depth for the expansion wanted. Of course the Forster HP tool can be used on the factory service load to "enhance" expansion......not that I ever did that....or at least carry them on duty........

Larry Gibson

[fcvan]

Years ago, I purchased a Lee C358-158 SWC HP single cavity, back when they made such things. I don't recall when they stopped making HP molds but it has been a while. There may be few of those laying around in the hands of someone who doesn't use theirs and would like to get rid of it. I'm going to hang onto mine.

I had always planned on getting a 2 cavity non HP version but ended up buying the 358-158 RF. I would really like that boolit in HP and may send one of for an HP modification. I don't need it but I want it :)

[Outpost75]

The FBI 158-grain lead HP +P .38 Special load is still available under the Remington symbol R38S12 or Winchester X38SPD. The equivalent Federal 38G has been discontinued. Alloy was 2% antimonial lead, which when fully cold worked and recrystallized is about 8 BHN. A cast HP of shape similar to #358429 with cavity 0.6 of the meplat diameter, with 15 degree included angle draft on the core pin, cast of 1:40 tin/lead has very similar upset characteristics but is a bit heavier at 162-164 grs. Velocity of the X38SPD with which I am most familiar was 855+/- 30 fps from the 4" SAAMI "vented" test barrel, which simulates revolver ballistics wth a 0.008" cylinder gap.

This velocity is approximated with 158-162-grain cast LHPs using canister powders with either 4.2 grains of Bullseye, 4.8 grs. of W231, 5.2 grs. of Unique or 5.5 grs. of PB, at a minimum cartridge OAL of1.50". All are +P loads!

[Bonz]

Waiting for my new Ruger LCR 357 to arrive. My plan was to load the dreaded "FBI Load .38 Special +P" for my new pocket pistol. I rented one of these a few weeks ago and loved shooting it, except for the full load .357 rounds stinging my hand, lol. My Ruger GP100 is way to big & heavy to CC. Have fired quite a few 38 Special +P out of the GP100 just to test different powders. Believe that the 158gr SWCHP on top of 6gr of PowerPistol is gonna be my first choice. Won't know for sure until I fire a few out of that little 17 oz pocket revolver.

There are probably enough members that would be interested in buying a fancy NOE 158gr SWC HP mold. Could probably sell the other 19 on our site ;-)

[chill45100]

Food for thought since the thread is about close range defense loads in a light weight revolver. In the 60's it was popular to load a hollow base wad cutter backwards over a moderate charge of Bulleye's or Red-dot. The penetration wasn't much because energy transfer was nearly complete.

[C. Latch]

This thread interests me. When available I prefer the speer 135-grain gold Dot load but I would love to be able to cobble together some ammo that equaled the old FBI load.

FWIW, and since I'm cheap and already have a jug of 700-x, if I stick with a max load of 700-x (4.4 grains, IIRC, was what I used as max based on the Lyman manual), how much velocity will I be giving up in a 2" snubnose?

[MtGun44]

How about this?

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=52430&d=1307446037

Bill

[Bonz]

i'm just looking for a round that if I was forced to use it, would "probably" not go all the way thru someone and hit someone behind them. the "fbi load" was supposed to be that round.

[Tim357]

Bonz, not sure if you chrono'd your 6.0 PP loads, but my experience is 970 avg from a 3" bbl with Lee 158 RNFP and .38 Special cases

[bhn22]

i'm just looking for a round that if I was forced to use it, would "probably" not go all the way thru someone and hit someone behind them. the "fbi load" was supposed to be that round.
There are no guarantees in life, or bullet performance. This is an admirable goal, but you needs to address your tactics too. You can't just "shoot them a little bit", the ammunition companies can't meet that criteria even with their massive R&D budgets, and complete ballistic labs.

[Bonz]

Bonz, not sure if you chrono'd your 6.0 PP loads, but my experience is 970 avg from a 3" bbl with Lee 158 RNFP and .38 Special cases

I don't have access to a chronograph, just "guessing" because I can't find any load info regarding speed for a barrel as short as the Ruger LCR 357 barrel which is 1.875"

From what I have read so far, out of a .38 special +p case, i'm going to get my fastest speed out of PowerPistol

[Larry Gibson]

Here's what the Winchester "FBI Load" looks like. Note the HP'd bullet is also HB'd. HBN on these runs 5.5 -6 as previously noted. Velocity of 12 shots each out of 23 department 4" barreled M15 S&Ws ran an average of 930 fps (Oehler chronograph with tests run for department records and bullets samples for potential forensics....). Also note the shape of the LSWCHP as it sits in the cavity of a 358156 mould, close to identical profile. 5.5 gr under the 358158 cast of 40-1 and HP'd or the 358477 cast of same alloy and HP'd had identical +P pressures and velocity of 925 fps +/-.

Larry Gibson

9010190102

[LuckySavage]

I'm gonna stick my neck out here, only because I spent a fair amount of time trying to develop a .357 bullet/load that could be used for whitetails AND self defense. I understand it's all been done before, but this was a learning process for ME. Please feel free to let me know if I'm off base.
I ended up with a .359 WFN 150gr. Boolit cast at an assumed 8 BHN, maybe even softer. (5 lbs. pure PB to 2 oz. tin). In all my testing, which was admittedly backwoods, (shot my 2" S&W, 3 & 4" SP101's thru an old Carhartt w/ a piece of 1/2" plywood inside, in front of 3- 5 gal. Plastic pails of water.
Almost invariably the boolits ended up going thru to the second pail, and were fished out with very little expansion. Same size Jacketed bullets fared even worse, they came out clean as the day they were made, NO expansion whatsoever. Figured 2 things needed to happen- needed to speed the boolit up and entice it to open quicker. Had Erik Ohlen HP one side of my mold, which brought the weight down to 145 gr. and gave reliable expansion at lower velocities. The velocities I refer to are just over 1000 FPS. I was trying to duplicate the venerable FBI load, which I had read many times was fairly warm for .38 Special. Long story longer, I ended up using 7.5 gr. of HS-6 under the HP boolit, averaged 1050 FPS, and got the expansion I was looking for. Wish I could have included pics of the expanded boolits, but I must have melted them already!
NOTE: if you're trying to create a SD round, make sure that you use something like HS-6, or some of the Ramshot powders like Silhouette. They're flash suppressed, and work well. If you go out there with a full load of power pistol or something like it, you're only gonna get one shot in a dark SD situation. You will be blinded by your own muzzle flash, and that doesn't bode well for your extended health.

90111

My fat stubby boolit w/Rimrock 158gr. 358156 for comparison. Dang, pic upside down....

[Larry Gibson]

Didn't the wife complain when you glued them to the ceiling?

Larry Gibson

[MT Gianni]

i'm just looking for a round that if I was forced to use it, would "probably" not go all the way thru someone and hit someone behind them. the "fbi load" was supposed to be that round.

If you ever need to shoot your justification will be to stop the threat against you. You should shoot until the threat is neutralized. Even if you can put 10 shots in the X ring @ 50 yards it will be different when you ar actually being shot at or your life is threatened in another way. The reason LEO's miss frequently is not lack of training but the stress of the situation. The probability is that you would do no better. Get loads that work for what you need them to do without overthinking what might happen. If you are at home shooting at an armed assailant with your kids bedroom as a background you have already done too many things wrong, IMO.

[Bonz]

Must be old age setting in hard, have no idea why I decided to use .38 Special +P cases… New pistola is chambered for .357 and I have plenty of .357 nickel cases to practice with. Now with the .357 cases, I can now try some low power .357 loads: 8.0gr Accurate #5, 10.0gr VV N-105, 6.0gr VV N-340, 6.2gr Win231, etc...

[Bonz]

If you ever need to shoot your justification will be to stop the threat against you. You should shoot until the threat is neutralized. Even if you can put 10 shots in the X ring @ 50 yards it will be different when you ar actually being shot at or your life is threatened in another way. The reason LEO's miss frequently is not lack of training but the stress of the situation. The probability is that you would do no better. Get loads that work for what you need them to do without overthinking what might happen. If you are at home shooting at an armed assailant with your kids bedroom as a background you have already done too many things wrong, IMO.

I agree with you completely. I have pulled a gun twice in my life to defend myself and didn't have to shoot either time, the gun pointed at them was enough to end it. I'm switching to a revolver just because I won't carry a semi-auto with a round chambered.

[bhn22]

Yes, use 357 cases. You'll have more flexibility in load data.

[Super Sneaky Steve]

I don't have access to a chronograph, just "guessing" because I can't find any load info regarding speed for a barrel as short as the Ruger LCR 357 barrel which is 1.875"

From what I have read so far, out of a .38 special +p case, i'm going to get my fastest speed out of PowerPistol

I've tested the 6.0 PP load with a 158LSWC bullet. From my 642 with 1.87" barrel I got 876fps or 269ft/lbs. This load created the most energy tested. More than Winchester PDX1 130grain +P and Winchester White Box 125 +P.

Out of a 3" SP101 I got 933fps or 305ft/lbs. With the same 6.0PP load.

I have the lee gas check mould and I cast a few with pure lead. I'd like to test it as a soft point.

[Menner]

I don't have a snub nosed 38 but I do have some questions my cc gun is a 3" barreled taurus 740 slim and I bought a HP mold from Erik (great mold) so far have casted nothing but straight WW. the boolits I have recovered (set over 4.5 gr red dot right at 950 fps) I have not been completly happy with the expansion my thinking is alloy is to hard. my next step is to try pure lead looks like from info here I should not have any problem with leading at 950 fps I was reading another thread about soft nose boolits for game with a WW base and a lite went off why would this not work with a HP boolit or am I over thinking this as a pure lead boolits should function fine with little or no leading?

[C. Latch]

I don't have a snub nosed 38 but I do have some questions my cc gun is a 3" barreled taurus 740 slim and I bought a HP mold from Erik (great mold) so far have casted nothing but straight WW. the boolits I have recovered (set over 4.5 gr red dot right at 950 fps) I have not been completly happy with the expansion my thinking is alloy is to hard. my next step is to try pure lead looks like from info here I should not have any problem with leading at 950 fps I was reading another thread about soft nose boolits for game with a WW base and a lite went off why would this not work with a HP boolit or am I over thinking this as a pure lead boolits should function fine with little or no leading?

In a defensive situation, is there ANY possibility of shooting enough rounds, at a great enough distance, for leading to become an issue?

[Forrest r]

You might try mixing ww & pure lead in a 50/50 mix. You're looking for a 9bhn to 10bhn hardness for 950fps. I shoot range scrap & it's in that hardness range most of the time. When I smelt a batch (100# @ a time) I'll test it. If it's on the soft (around 8bhn) I'll use it to cast hbwc's & hp for the snub noses (850fps tops). If it's around 10bhn I'll use it to cast hp's for multiple calibers for bullets moving 900fps to 1100 fps.

40 to 1 lead/tin ='s 8bhn 800fps
20 to 1 lead/tin ='s 10bhn 1000fps
10 to 1 lead/tin ='s 12bhn 1200fps

ww are around 12 bhn.

[Michael J. Spangler]

Tagged for updates.

[harley45]

Tagged this is the load I'm trying for with my new MP 358156

[Menner]

I agree that the number of pure lead rounds that would go down the pipe would be for expansion testing. for practice I would use the WW boolit I will compare the two booloits for accuracy and run them through the crony will try both pure lead and a mix of 50/50 WW/PL
I think it was the idea of experimenting with the combination bullet that made think about trying it I live in Delaware a shotgun only state for deer and that is the only large animal that we have and my varmit gun is a 204 and no need for a soft point cast boolit to punch paper
Thanks

[Forrest r]

Lucky dog!!! You need to post some pics of your experimenting, these bullets are a ton of fun. Sold an old lyman single cavity hp 358156 mold years ago & have regretted it ever since.

A little reading material (70 years old), I like these links because they show pictures of the bullets for the different alloys/velocities. They might help you as a visual aid to compare what your bullets look like after impact compared to their at the different velocities/alloys.

http://www.goodrichfamilyassoc.org/44_Special_Articles/44%20spl%20-%20may%201953%20american%20rifleman.pdf

http://www.goodrichfamilyassoc.org/44_Special_Articles/44%20spl%20-%20oct%201953%20american%20rifleman.pdf

[Tatume]

The one detail I don't see mentioned in this thread is that the 158 grain, hollow point, 38 special +P ammunition purchased by the FBI was Federal Ny-Clad. The nylon outer cover offers no ballistic or terminal advantage, it was for reduction of air-borne lead in indoor ranges. This is the ammunition I carry in my backup S&W Airweights to this day.

[Larry Gibson]

the 158 grain, hollow point, 38 special +P ammunition purchased by the FBI was Federal Ny-Clad.

Should change "was' to "is" as in currently.

Back in the day (mid '70s) the Winchester pictured in a previous post "was" the FBI load. That's where the box of ammo in the photo came from? I was given a case of it by the FBI at an Oregon BPST (Board of Police Standards and Training) firearms instructor training session, still have 5 boxes left. I was an advanced firearms instructor in Oregon at the time. That same W-W +P 158 LSWCHP ammunition became the duty load for my department after it was thoroughly tested.

The Federal Ny-Clad wasn't around then.

Larry Gibson

[Tatume]

Cool. Thanks for the clarification.

[Bonz]

From Wikipedia http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/.38_Special

"Typically, the FBI Load utilized a very soft lead alloy of 5.5–6 as measured on the Brinell hardness scale to ensure reliable expansion."

[Crash_Corrigan]

When I carried a .38 Special revolver for the NYCPD we were issued 158 GR LSWC ammo. It came in a nice nickled case and was easy to shoot and very accurate. However the terminal ballistics were not so good. One of my friends was a reloader and he came up with a loading which utilized the department issue case and a much softer boolit. It looked just like department issue ammo but had a healthy charge of 5.8 gr of Unique powder to move it along better.

It was so much better that I had problems with cases sticking in the chambers. My answer to that was to carry a NY Reload. A 2nd revolver strapped to my left ankle. It was much faster to grab another gun than it was to reload the Smith Model 10. The only time I had to reload under stress was after I had pumped 6 rounds into an armed felon and he kept on running. After I popped up from behind a USPS mail storage box and pointed my snub nosed Smith Model 10 at this guy has was falling down. I had placed all my shots into a small circle in the midst of his chest and he was DOA.

My luck held true and none of the projectiles were recovered from this guy. All had gone through and left the area.

[35remington]

Let me add the cautionary note that a lot of the loads posted here (I'm not singling anyone out as many have advised due caution) are not only Plus P but somewhat beyond that to very well beyond that.

Don't try to duplicate some of these loads without checking a loading manual first. If your pistol is not rated for Plus P duplication of the factory Plus P load at standard pressures is certainly not possible with many if not most of the powders used here.

One probably should remember that since 950 fps from a four inch barrel is most certainly Plus P ballistics from a 158 SWC, any velocities that approach or exceed that from shorter barrel lengths are most likely higher pressures than Plus P.

[35remington]

Attributed to SSS (see post under this name on the previous page):

"I've tested the 6.0 PP load with a 158LSWC bullet. From my 642 with 1.87" barrel I got 876fps or 269ft/lbs."

That's just about the velocity I get from my shorties (1 7/8 -2" bbls) using the same charge of Power Pistol and the Lee 158 TLSWC. I should note top end standard charge (not Plus P) is 5.4 grains and gets around 815 fps or so. From a short barrel neither figure is bad.

[Menner]

I will post pics. The Boolits I have recovered so far have been from a boolit trap made from pieces of old tire and rags stacked in a box not sure how this would effect expansion I would like to use something more consistant in density and from what I have read wet magazines make a good media for exspansion testing how thick would I need from say 10 yards (165 gr hp 40cal at 950 fps) I was thinking 8" would be enough but I have never tried any serious expansion testing so that is a shot in the dark.

[35remington]

For a nonexpanding 40 you'll need at least 16-18" of wet phone books. Two feet should stop them for sure. If your HP's do indeed expand you'll need anywhere from 8-14" depending upon just how well they expand. 8" is a bit on the low side.

[dondiego]

" I'm switching to a revolver just because I won't carry a semi-auto with a round chambered".

Why wouldn't you?

[1950Hudson]

With a revolver, don't you have at least five rounds chambered??

[Bonz]

" I'm switching to a revolver just because I won't carry a semi-auto with a round chambered".

Why wouldn't you?

It's specific to my normal CC, a Ruger LCP 380 pocket pistol. The hammer is "pre-cocked" after chambering a round. I have heard of a few instances where it has fired after being jostled around, etc. Ruger has a disclaimer stating that having a round chambered may allow the gun to fire prematurely. The only semi-autos that I have where I could "drop the hammer" are too big to CC, to me anyway. So now I wait for my new CC, a Ruger LCR .357 magnum, which is light, very small and hammerless.

[Bonz]

With a revolver, don't you have at least five rounds chambered??

Most revolvers have a safety feature built-in that make it virtually impossible for a round to fire without pulling the trigger, even if it is dropped.

[LuckySavage]

Didn't the wife complain when you glued them to the ceiling?

Larry Gibson

She complains more about my moronic tendencies....

[Larry Gibson]

I resemble that! My wife notices those things about me too.........

Larry Gibson

[Super Sneaky Steve]

It's specific to my normal CC, a Ruger LCP 380 pocket pistol. The hammer is "pre-cocked" after chambering a round. I have heard of a few instances where it has fired after being jostled around, etc. Ruger has a disclaimer stating that having a round chambered may allow the gun to fire prematurely.

My experiance with the LCP is that it has a very long double action pull. I find it very hard to believe it would go off being jostled around. I would trust it free balling in my pocket, but I prefer revolvers for most situations.

[MtGun44]

The Ruger (and Keltech) precock is about 50% of the travel, no way it can go off with
"jostling". Now, hook your key chain ring around the trigger and pull it out . . . . . . yep.

Not "jostling". I carry my Kel Tech in a pocket holster, which covers the trigger. Free
floating in the pocket is not a good idea, although if it was in a pocket that was NEVER
used for additional gear. . . . maybe. The chance error of dropping your keys or something
in with it and then fishing the keys/whatever back out with bad consequences makes me
a strong advocate of a pocket holster.

Bill

[bhn22]

She complains more about my moronic tendencies....

Oh, I thought you were from Australia.

[Low Budget Shooter]

Australia - funny! :)

[Elkins45]

Most revolvers have a safety feature built-in that make it virtually impossible for a round to fire without pulling the trigger, even if it is dropped.

So do most modern autos. The problem is that the trigger DOES get pulled sometimes...but that isn't the fault of the gun.

FWIW, I pocket carry either a 340PD (J frame) or a Kahr CW9. I don't feel more unsafe with one than the other in terms of drop safety.

I carry the Winchester FBI load in the J frame, but my reload is the Nyclad version so the bullets don't get imbedded with grit in my pocket. That may be dumb but it probably doesn't hurt anything.

[LesNoLess]

Lyman 358156 HP. Be prepared to spend over a hundred dollars for one. Plan B: watch NOEs page for a gascheck design to come available in and RG@ configuration. Plan C: find a clean 358156 mold and send it to Hollowpoint Mold Service for conversion. You'll still have a hundred bucks in it, but that'll likely happen whatever you do.

Folks, I’m new to the website as a member but have used it for ‘Load-Data’ and various information for a long time. But Now….. even 8 years after the original Lyman 358156 HP FBI post, I could use some help regarding:
IDEAL Bullet Mold 358 156 LSWC/HP/GC cal.38-357. I know this is now a LYMAN mfg’d mold.

My question is simple: the Mold Information notes; 156 Gr., and yet the finished Gas Checked bullet weighs in at 148 Gr. I’m puzzled at the disparity of the stamped label.
I have been loading the 156 LSWC/HP/GC (load data from RCBS 'Cast Bullet Manual' #1) @ 4.5 Gr. Bullseye for years without issue but have yet to find the answer to my query. (Why is the stamped bullet weight different?) Any thoughts?

[Outpost75]

Weight is alloy dependent. Pure lead is heaviest, as you add additional alloying elements weight decreases. Linotype about 5 grains lighter than pure lead. 1 to 30 tin-lead or 50-50 COWW and pure lead with 1% tin added have similar weight and hardness to factory swage lead 97-2-1 Pb-Sb-Sn at about 8-9 BHN

[USSR]

While cast bullet weight is associated with the alloy being used, with an 8 grain discrepancy such as you have, I would check the accuracy of my scale.

Don

[rintinglen]

The hollow point version weighs less than the original solid nose.

[USSR]

The hollow point version weighs less than the original solid nose.

Thanks for pointing that out, rintinglen. I missed the "/HP".

Don

[Kuduking]

I'm glad someone else resurrected this necro-thread! :-)

I joined the FBI in 1986 and the issue load at that time with .38 Special +P 158 LSWCHP, either the Winchester X38SPD or Federal 38G load. Federal was probably the low bidder on the current contract, although there was still plenty of Winchester in inventory. At some point after I graduated the Academy, the equivalent Remington load, R38S12, was also procured.

The issue gun was the S&W Model 13-3 3" round butt, and all the guns had a Pachmayr grip adapter installed. A few of the female trainees had very small hands, and their guns had the stocks replaced with the Pachmayr Professional Compact grip, with exposed backstrap.

I recall the Federal bullet being softer than the Winchester, recoil about the same. Couldn't really tell what kind of accuracy these loads got, as all the practice and qualification was with factory Remington .38 Special 148 Targetmaster wadcutter load 38S3. The service load were only shot on "combat style" target arrays, in which a hit anywhere on the silhouette was OK. To me it seemed inconsistent.

When the FBI got around to doing actual 10% ballistic gelatin testing after the 1986 Miami shooting, they worked up a big test protocol. They found that the Winchester load didn't expand much when fired from the 3" barrel. The Federal load did measurably better, but the Remington load had the best performance. However, none of the loads could penetrate the car door simulation test. Even worse, the accuracy of the Federal load was atrocious: at 25 yards, the test gun group (10 shots from Ransom Rest) was in excess of 6", and the test barrel group (10 shots from the test fixture) was in excess of 9". The Remington and Winchester loads were nothing to write home about either (test gun groups of 4" and 5", respectively).

After these tests, the Bureau asked the Big Three for a 147 grain jacketed HP .38 Special load that would fire at 900 fps from the 3" gun and pass the test protocols. The 147 grain Winchester 9mm JHP load, which they euphemistically called "Open tip Match", had already been adopted for the the 9mm pistols used by SWAT. Only Federal and Winchester submitted samples, and the loads were listed as ".38 Special +P+". Both were authorized, although I recall seeing a lot more of the Federal 147 HS available. It had a higher velocity than the Winchester JHP and also somewhat better overall performance in the ballistic gelatin tests.

Once the +P+ JHP loads were adopted, the 158 grain SWCHP loads were relegated to training loads. The +P+ loads stayed in inventory for almost 20 years until revolvers were finally completely phased out.

[ddixie884]

The hollow point version weighs less than the original solid nose.
True that...............

[Tim357]

I'm glad someone else resurrected this necro-thread! :-)

I joined the FBI in 1986 and the issue load at that time with .38 Special +P 158 LSWCHP, either the Winchester X38SPD or Federal 38G load. Federal was probably the low bidder on the current contract, although there was still plenty of Winchester in inventory. At some point after I graduated the Academy, the equivalent Remington load, R38S12, was also procured.

The issue gun was the S&W Model 13-3 3" round butt, and all the guns had a Pachmayr grip adapter installed. A few of the female trainees had very small hands, and their guns had the stocks replaced with the Pachmayr Professional Compact grip, with exposed backstrap.

I recall the Federal bullet being softer than the Winchester, recoil about the same. Couldn't really tell what kind of accuracy these loads got, as all the practice and qualification was with factory Remington .38 Special 148 Targetmaster wadcutter load 38S3. The service load were only shot on "combat style" target arrays, in which a hit anywhere on the silhouette was OK. To me it seemed inconsistent.

When the FBI got around to doing actual 10% ballistic gelatin testing after the 1986 Miami shooting, they worked up a big test protocol. They found that the Winchester load didn't expand much when fired from the 3" barrel. The Federal load did measurably better, but the Remington load had the best performance. However, none of the loads could penetrate the car door simulation test. Even worse, the accuracy of the Federal load was atrocious: at 25 yards, the test gun group (10 shots from Ransom Rest) was in excess of 6", and the test barrel group (10 shots from the test fixture) was in excess of 9". The Remington and Winchester loads were nothing to write home about either (test gun groups of 4" and 5", respectively).

After these tests, the Bureau asked the Big Three for a 147 grain jacketed HP .38 Special load that would fire at 900 fps from the 3" gun and pass the test protocols. The 147 grain Winchester 9mm JHP load, which they euphemistically called "Open tip Match", had already been adopted for the the 9mm pistols used by SWAT. Only Federal and Winchester submitted samples, and the loads were listed as ".38 Special +P+". Both were authorized, although I recall seeing a lot more of the Federal 147 HS available. It had a higher velocity than the Winchester JHP and also somewhat better overall performance in the ballistic gelatin tests.

Once the +P+ JHP loads were adopted, the 158 grain SWCHP loads were relegated to training loads. The +P+ loads stayed in inventory for almost 20 years until revolvers were finally completely phased out.

Thanks for the history lesson! Good stuff!

[ddixie884]

Yeah, what he said............

[Outpost75]

In 1972, the FBI adopted the Winchester XD38SPD .38 Special +P all-lead, hollow-point semi-wadcutter. This expanded well in ordnance gelatin tissue simulant when fired at typical velocities produced by the service revolvers then issued. The FBI load proved highly satisfactory in numerous officer involved shootings using both 2- and 4-inch barreled revolvers and was widely adopted by many Federal, state and municipal law enforcement agencies.

Remington and Federal thereafter developed equivalents to be able to compete in contract bid processes. Remington's R38S12 was a stellar performer in short barrels and is still manufactured.

Federal never seemed to get the alloy, lubrication or cavity geometry right and was a poor substitute, and is no longer manufactured.

[LesNoLess]

Good history lesson, thanks KuDuking.
As suggested by USSR, I checked my scale with other items of ‘known’ weights and various LSWC, from 125- 300 gr.
The scale was +/- .1 gr. across the board.

The LSWCHP/GC, which I questioned were cast from W/W and dropped into a full 5 Gal. water bucket direct from the mold to be used for .357 loads. (10.1 gr. Alliant 2400 @ 1330 fps), using MIDWAY Data loading charts for 148 gr. LSWC BN (NOT the 156gr. labeled on the mold.)

“Rintinglens” reply: “hollow point version weighs less than the original solid nose”, seems to carry some relevance regarding why the difference (Thanks Rintinglen!).

[Tim357]

The LSWCHP/GC, which I questioned were cast from W/W and dropped into a full 5 Gal. water bucket direct from the mold to be used for .357 loads. (10.1 gr. Alliant 2400 @ 1330 fps), using MIDWAY Data loading charts for 148 gr. LSWC BN (NOT the 156gr. labeled on the mold.

Did you chrono that 10.1 gr 2400 load? Last I checked, 10 gr 2400 w/ 158 boolit only gave 912 fps from a 4" bbl. That was in .38 Spl cases

[techie]

Midway chrono'd their .357 magnum loads through a 10 inch unvented barrel.

[Kuduking]

I did some shooting into Clear Ballistics gel with the FBI .38 Special service loads, and a similar cast bullet handload. Chronograph results are of the actual fired projectiles. Test firearm Ruger Police Service-Six .38 Special stainless revolver with 4" barrel (catalogue GF-84). Temperature 70 F.

The Remington ammunition is about 30 years old, the Federal and Winchester about 25 years old. Stored in controlled conditions.

The handload is about 5 years old, using the Rimrock SWCHP gas-checked cast bullet at a claimed BHN 5. The HS-6 charge is 1/10 grain above the starting charge for a jacketed bullet in the Speer Atomic Manual (Number 8). Primer is Federal 200M.

I have an equivalent jacketed bullet handload, but since this is the Cast Boolits forum, I left it out of the picture, so as not to set off too many members... :Fire:

Results pictured.

[USSR]

Kuduking,

FWIW, Winchester lists 7.1gr of W540/HS-6 as the maximum load for a 158gr Lead SWC .38 Special +P load.

Don

[Kuduking]

Don,

Thanks. I know you mean well, and there may be newer inexperienced reloaders on here (although this seems to be a more sophisticated membership than the average internet forum). I've been reloading for 45 years, shotshell and metallic rifle/pistol, at least 3 dozen calibres, and scores of firearms. I'm aware of what the various manuals say now, as well as what they have said in the past. I have a bunch of them, plus online resources.

The new data/old data debate is a long-beaten dead horse, especially when it comes to .38 Special. A brief internet search will reveal numerous discussions from experienced reloaders regarding .38 Special load levels, the watering down of factory ammo and reloading data, the history of +P and +P+, the equivalence of .38/44 loads in todays reloading environment, and the strength of modern revolvers (and revolvers from the 1940s too).

Having said that, I'm not recommending anything. My loads are safe in my guns. No one should load anything without careful testing.

YMMV

[USSR]

Don,

Thanks. I know you mean well...

Well, yeah. Anytime I see someone using loads well above Max by using loads based on load data from the Speer #8 Manual, I tend to speak up.

Don

[Kuduking]

Yes, caution should always be exercised when reloading. The novice is best advised to stick to contemporary data, as they don't have the experience or knowledge to judge anything else.

However, Speer never repudiated the Number 8 manual, nor advised not to use the data. The .38 Special data therein was developed in a S&W K-38. Considering that the pre-1957 S&W "Military & Police" K frame revolvers were specifically deemed by S&W to be perfectly fine with factory .38/44 ammunition (which is estimated to have produced 24,000-26,000 cup), there was no reason to repudiate it.

281323
281324

The modern .38 Special +P+ factory loads mentioned above, produce pressure between 23,000 and 25,000 psi. I observed that ammunition being used, without issues, for years in smaller S&W steel J-frame revolvers including Models 36, 49, 60 and 649.

Winchester never sold HS-6, and also hasn't produced a manual in many moons. I'm aware that Winchester 540 is the exact same powder as Hodgdon HS-6.

The Winchester Reloading guide to its credit listed pressure levels for their various loads, something many manuals no longer do, perhaps because they don't want you to know how weak the data is. The last guide I could find to show 540 (HS-6) data is from 1997. Winchester listed a max of 7.1 gr of 540 (HS-6) in .38 Special +P with 158 lead SWC at 17,300 psi. That is well below the SAAMI 20,000 psi limit for .38 Special +P. Using the data they provided under .38 Special, 6.8 gr of 540 (HS-6) with the same bullet produced 15,900 psi.

HS-6, especially at these low pressure levels, has a very reliable pressure curve. Using simple progression, 7.6 gr of 540 (HS-6) produces 19,600 psi, which is still under the SAAMI +P limit.

I won't mention the maximum HS-6 load in the Number 8 manual, but it appears to be under the modern .38 Special +P+ limit as well.

This information may be of interest to the experienced and careful reloader. As always, YMMV.

[Forrest r]

Actually speer has advised not to use the #8 data in their speer manual #10 page 107

[Wireman134]

Actually speer has advised not to use the #8 data in their speer manual #10 page 107

Not true. Speer states only "The data in the Number Eight and earlier Manuals was based on primer appearance, ease of case extraction, and case head expansion. These methods are still valid, and are the only ways the handloader can estimate the saftey of his loads without some rather complicated laboratory equipment. Tosupplement these methods , the SPEER Ballistic Lab Staff, using SAAMI test barrels, standard test barrels, reference ammunition, and copper crushers". etc... No where says not to use data in Speer #8

[mehavey]

See https://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?366065-New-Lee-Hardness-Tester&p=4437398&viewfull=1#post4437398
Use pure lead, or at most 30:1 or 40:1
Effectively pure lead.


FWIW: Binary tin/lead mixes are far softer than "Internet Lore" would have one believe.

.

[rintinglen]

Not true. Speer states only "The data in the Number Eight and earlier Manuals was based on primer appearance, ease of case extraction, and case head expansion. These methods are still valid, and are the only ways the handloader can estimate the saftey of his loads without some rather complicated laboratory equipment. Tosupplement these methods , the SPEER Ballistic Lab Staff, using SAAMI test barrels, standard test barrels, reference ammunition, and copper crushers". etc... No where says not to use data in Speer #8

A phone call to Speer will elicit the advice to put all manuals before #11 in plastic wrap and disregard the data. At least, that is what I was told last year when this topic came up in another thread.

I have used 30-1 for my own efforts and obtained expansion down to the ~800 FPS range from 2" revolvers. I use the MP 359-640 which I highly recommend. Higher temperature for the melt is necessary to get good fill out.