.460 s-w

[ss40_70]

2 years ago my family went together and bought me a .460 bfr with a 10 inch barrel for christmas
i think its time to break it in this spring
i havent loaded much handgun ammo so i have a few questions

1. boolits and bullets
i plan on most of my shooting to be with boolits ...... what style and weight or a particular boolit to be most useful to me .. think multi use .. paper hunting etc etc etc
bullets .. open for bullet suggestions using those evil j words

2. powders .. is there a single powder that will work well for .45 colt style loads on up to full magnum loads , i open to any suggestions an what not

[subsonic]

You will not find much sucess with one-size-fits-all here. The .460 is like a Ferrari and isn't much good for hauling groceries.

You'd be better off picking 2 sets of boolits and powders to accomplish your 2 goals OR focusing on just one of the two kinds of loads.

I have not loaded for the .460, but have looked at what some others have done with it and cartridges of similar capacity and bore size. I'd suggest something like a 350gr LBT style WFN with a gas check and load it over a case full of SR4759 with a large pistol mag primer.

I am hoping whiterabbit tells you what he is doing and has tried with his.

[subsonic]

If you are trying for a plinking load, try something like the LEE 452-255 RF boolit over trailboss powder with a standard primer.

Both loads would be in .460 brass. You CAN use .45 colt or .454 brass, but I don't think you will like the results.

[ss40_70]

ok maybe this will help . with cast boolits i want to be where the gun will shoot its best ... if its a 250 grn boolit at 1600 fps or a 300 grn boolit at 1000 fps

jacketed bullets .. well whats the fun in having a magnum if you arent going to shoot a magnum

[Whiterabbit]

I am so unqualified to talk about results, I'm just happy we'll have a second person here working on the 460 BFR. I tell you what SS, I find something that I think has potential I'll send you bullet samples to corroborate my results.

What I can tell so far is that with #9 (maybe all powder, I don't know) it seems to want to shoot a given cast bullet slower than an X frame smith and wesson for equal group size. This is at 15 yards though, because the two S&W shooters I know locally don't often take their X-frames past that and it's hard to get good comparable data.

[44man]

I have no experience with the .460 to speak of but it was designed for long range with fast, light bullets. Gain twist that works for the purpose in the S&W.
The large case will not take well to tiny amounts of fast powders and I don't know about real heavy boolits.
The BFR might be a better choice for heavier boolits but like Whiterabbit said, guys are shooting 15 yards and that just baffles me.
The BFR has a 1 in 16" twist so it should be at home with boolit weight but why load light loads in the gun?
So I sit here and think a little---DANGEROUS! :Fire:
The .45 Colt with a 1 in 16" rate shoots best with a 335 gr boolit at 1160 fps. Now with the huge .460 case, what do we use with a heavy boolit? Could the BFR be better with 350 and up boolits shot to stability? Or would a light boolt shot fast do good?
I can only say, the larger the case capacity, the harder it is to work with. My 45-70 BFR took a long time to find the powder.
So the BFR .460 will need a good powder choice and I am sure it will shoot good. So will the S&W once it is found but I am not going to buy one to find out. :mrgreen:
I am to lazy! :coffee:

[Whiterabbit]

What factor would differentiate one powder from another with respect to the good performance you are talking about? Burn speed? Something else? Guess-and-check takes a LONG time, but if we know what factor (hopefully not factors or too many if it is plural) affects good powder performance from one gun to another, it makes it easier to select candidate powders to try.

For example, if the factor is speed, it's relatively easy to select a few at the top end for speed, some more traditional slow pistol powders, and then try some rifle powders suitable for 45-70, a "similar" cartridge. If powder burn speed has nothing to do with it, I would be wasting my time and money chasing shadows.

[44man]

What factor would differentiate one powder from another with respect to the good performance you are talking about? Burn speed? Something else? Guess-and-check takes a LONG time, but if we know what factor (hopefully not factors or too many if it is plural) affects good powder performance from one gun to another, it makes it easier to select candidate powders to try.

For example, if the factor is speed, it's relatively easy to select a few at the top end for speed, some more traditional slow pistol powders, and then try some rifle powders suitable for 45-70, a "similar" cartridge. If powder burn speed has nothing to do with it, I would be wasting my time and money chasing shadows.
You almost never need top end speed. But case size and boolit weight must be considered.
Pick a boolit and work loads to find the velocity it is best with. Try powders to find the one that fills the case best with bulk and does not slam the boolit all at once. You might even need a filler of Dacron.
The 45-70 drove me nuts. I tried every powder from Unique to 4895 and even some slower. I had extreme poor accuracy to powder that did not burn. I knew the case was too large for a revolver even with a 10" barrel.
I tried SR4759, it is a fast powder with bulk and burn characteristics that fit just right. I use nothing else.
It was not easy and took time but the worst part was finding load info so I was on my own for a lot of it. For a cartridge so old and great there is just nothing for a short barrel.
The .460 should be much easier, the case is not as large and powder choice will be wider.
Just don't think a 4" barrel will work, I am going to say a 10" is tough enough.
Top end loads in the .460 might want 296, great powder. The Hodgdon site has a lot of loads but it is up to you to test the powders for each boolit weight. I would stay away from Lil'Gun unless you find it does not get too hot in your gun.
Any new caliber you buy needs work. To pick one powder and load just puts you in a rut. You will not find the best.

[Whiterabbit]

You almost never need top end speed. But case size and boolit weight must be considered.
Pick a boolit and work loads to find the velocity it is best with. Try powders to find the one that fills the case best with bulk and does not slam the boolit all at once. You might even need a filler of Dacron.
The 45-70 drove me nuts. I tried every powder from Unique to 4895 and even some slower. I had extreme poor accuracy to powder that did not burn. I knew the case was too large for a revolver even with a 10" barrel.
I tried SR4759, it is a fast powder with bulk and burn characteristics that fit just right. I use nothing else.
It was not easy and took time but the worst part was finding load info so I was on my own for a lot of it. For a cartridge so old and great there is just nothing for a short barrel.
The .460 should be much easier, the case is not as large and powder choice will be wider.
Just don't think a 4" barrel will work, I am going to say a 10" is tough enough.
Top end loads in the .460 might want 296, great powder. The Hodgdon site has a lot of loads but it is up to you to test the powders for each boolit weight. I would stay away from Lil'Gun unless you find it does not get too hot in your gun.
Any new caliber you buy needs work. To pick one powder and load just puts you in a rut. You will not find the best.

Thank you so much. I'm hoping you can elaborate on burn characteristics to add to burn rate and powder bulk, which are very easy concepts to understand.

The reason I ask is because with the 300 grain LEE cast bullet my results are best with H110. But with the 340 grain Penn bullet, H110 loaded fast or slow(er) never yielded good results (I'm not talking about groups, I'm talking about the bullet passing through the paper sideways), even loading with trailboss yielded long narrow bullet sized holes. Loading with #9 fixed the problem. The reason has always eluded me because I loaded max pressure and high velocity, very low cowboy style velocity, and used a very very fast powder and a relatively slow powder. And #9 and H110 aren't THAT far apart on the burn rate chart. #9 worked, H110 didn't.

So, it's interesting data, but being ignorant on alternative "burn characteristics" besides burn rate and energy density (speed vs volume of case used), I can't really understand why #9 worked and H110 and trailboss didn't at ANY safe velocity. Nor why #9 gives me quantitatively poorer groups with homecast 300 grain LEE bullets vs #9.

(doing some quickie research on SR4759, it looks like that powder generates reduced velocity without a reduction in generated pressure. would this be one good characteristic to track, the theoretical textbook pressure required to achieve a particular velocity?)

[subsonic]

The penn bullets were probably weaker where they grab the rifling an were prone to stripping. I am not sure why#9 helped with that, but maybe there was another factor that you changed unknowingly, like case neck tension, primer, or even some of your boolits were from a different production run and were sized differently or cast from another alloy, or heat treated differently.

[ss40_70]

:popcorn:

[44man]

4759 can actually give very high velocities. I love the stuff.
Subsonic has good thoughts. Boolit size and alloy can change everything.
I hate books and only use them for minimum and max loads with a powder because safety is first. But none tell you anything about accuracy so while we do need the books, I do not depend on any except for the vital stuff.
To see the range of powders for a caliber is mind boggling, yes all shoot but none will be the same at the target and is why we go nuts.
I am no different then all of you. I try and try over and over. I have never found an easy way and then there we go, change the boolit and alloy!!!!!!!
You have to know I DO find a difference between H110 and 296 in my guns, always did and prefer 296. Yeah I know, same powder but it does not act that way. The RH loves the stuff, the SRH, SBH and BFR's do not and shoot better with 296. So did my S&W's.
Even the change from H110 to 296 can go either way.
4227 is fantastic in some calibers but sucks big time in the .44.
How I wish I could make a list and make it easy but it is still mass confusion.
After working for over 56 years with the revolvers I still find stuff I can't answer and to read a gun rag with all the answers I just cuss.
Why do my .430" hard boolits shoot sub 1" at 50 yards from a .4324" throat and .430" bore with no leading? Not supposed to! I am supposed to need FIT and soft lead to expand. I cant shoot soft and never could except with BP. Even they need fit over expansion but just how important is it in a revolver? Is .432" better then .430"?
Powder is another story and I found Varget works like gangbusters in the 7R and 7BR after hodgdon said no, too slow. Also 4759 works great. 322 does not work until I get to 175 gr bullets in the 7BR. All loads call for 748---no not in my lifetime.
The burn rate chart is not something to follow because it tells you nothing about what a powder does in your cartridge case.

[MaxEnergy]

4759 can actually give very high velocities. I love the stuff.
Subsonic has good thoughts. Boolit size and alloy can change everything.
I hate books and only use them for minimum and max loads with a powder because safety is first. But none tell you anything about accuracy so while we do need the books, I do not depend on any except for the vital stuff.
To see the range of powders for a caliber is mind boggling, yes all shoot but none will be the same at the target and is why we go nuts.
I am no different then all of you. I try and try over and over. I have never found an easy way and then there we go, change the boolit and alloy!!!!!!!
You have to know I DO find a difference between H110 and 296 in my guns, always did and prefer 296. Yeah I know, same powder but it does not act that way. The RH loves the stuff, the SRH, SBH and BFR's do not and shoot better with 296. So did my S&W's.
Even the change from H110 to 296 can go either way.
4227 is fantastic in some calibers but sucks big time in the .44.
How I wish I could make a list and make it easy but it is still mass confusion.
After working for over 56 years with the revolvers I still find stuff I can't answer and to read a gun rag with all the answers I just cuss.
Why do my .430" hard boolits shoot sub 1" at 50 yards from a .4324" throat and .430" bore with no leading? Not supposed to! I am supposed to need FIT and soft lead to expand. I cant shoot soft and never could except with BP. Even they need fit over expansion but just how important is it in a revolver? Is .432" better then .430"?
Powder is another story and I found Varget works like gangbusters in the 7R and 7BR after hodgdon said no, too slow. Also 4759 works great. 322 does not work until I get to 175 gr bullets in the 7BR. All loads call for 748---no not in my lifetime.
The burn rate chart is not something to follow because it tells you nothing about what a powder does in your cartridge case.

i like the 460 just dont like the size of the gun. to big in my opinion for me at least

[subsonic]

If my range was as close to my house as 44man's, he and I would have a lot of notes to compare, but since mine is 45min one way and I just don't get to test things anywhere near as much as I would like, I'm stuck guessing and trying to extrapolate or even just copy other's work to get great results.

If you guys were trying to get a .44 mag or .45 colt to shoot, your job would be much easier since that path is already very worn and they are the type of cartridges that the powders, boolits, and even guns are really designed around. But the .460 is a niche cartridge that doesn't follow (any of?) the normal trends for revolver cartridges and is probably closer to a .45-70 for what works than it is to a .45 colt.

I'd try the 4759 witha very strong gas checked boolit and see if that works. If not, maybe AA 1680 is the right medicine. But I think the key is to get a boolit with a lot of bearing surface (read as: long, heavy for caliber and WFN shaped), cast of a tough alloy, size it right, and strap on a gas check for insurance purposes. If you can't get a boolit like that to work, I don't think you're going to have much luck otherwise unless you like mouse fart loads @ 7yds.

[Whiterabbit]

oh! I wasn't gonna say anything about those, but I had great success with that right away months and months ago with little fuss. I can upload pretty groups too. But seems unnecessary to use a 5 lb gun to shoot low pressure/power loads at 7 yards..... :)

You should try the stability calculators for 460. Everything completely and totally breaks down. I thought the calculator was the problem (maybe pistol rounds no good, or maybe large diameter rounds no good) till I confirmed that 45/70 and 45 acp worked just fine with the calculator. Simply put, the "math" tells me this cartridge should inherently never work.

Unless something else happens, like precession is insufficient to destabilize performance until the velocity can slow to a sufficient level to allow existing spin to actually stabilize the bullet. But that would be weird, right? a bullet that wouldn't group at 25 or 50 yards, then start to tighten up at 100+? (Sounds REALLY strange to me. Like impossible.)

[Whiterabbit]

So the BFR .460 will need a good powder choice and ....


I tried SR4759, it is a fast powder with bulk and burn characteristics that fit [the 45/70] just right.....It was not easy and took time


The burn rate chart is not something to follow because it tells you nothing about what a powder does in your cartridge case.

So to determine a good powder choice, it seems to me that your recommendation is empirical testing only (buy a pound, try it, doesn't work, move on, repeat till one works...). That trying to figure out WHY one works only works in reverse. As in, the working powder works BECAUSE of burn characteristics, but trying to set up a design of experiment to test specific burn characteristics to find out what the cartridge/gun likes is not possible?

In other words, now that you know 4759 works for your 45/70, you can say it's because it is a fast powder with bulk and good burn characteristics, but you weren't able to conclude that it had potential after trying so many other powders, and basically tried it at random?

[44man]

True, I used every other powder first for rifle loads. I did have good groups with a 300 gr Hornady and 4198 but had huge pressure and velocity swings with cast.
No way I could guess at the start. I would still be in limbo if I did not have some to try. Powder DOES change depending on case size.
I could make the gun go bang with anything but my search was pure accuracy.
I tried it because it fills the case decent, was made for reduced loads in larger cases and was fast enough for the short barrel. I guess I did do some thinking. [smilie=l:

[subsonic]

Just try a lb of SR4759:drinks:

Try it with your LEE 310 cast of WDWW with a little tin and a gas check. Size it to barely slip fit the cylinder throats. Probably .452"

If you need a starting load, weigh a .45-70 case and your .460 case with spent primers in them. Then fill them both to the top with water without a meniscus. Weigh both with water and subtract tHe weight of the case to get the weight of the water. Divide the .460 water weight by the .45-70 water weight to get the percent of case capacity. Take a .45-70 load with SR4759 and multiply the charge weight by your percent of change in case capacity. Subtract 10% and work up until velocity matches the .45-70 velocity in a similar barrel length. Because the case is smaller, pressure will be slightly higher at the same velocity, but it should still be well below the SAMMI max for the .460, which is a much higher pressure round than even the most enthusiastic .45-70 load data for modern rifles.

If you need water weight for a .45-70 case, let me know.

[Whiterabbit]

wow, that is simple and awesome advice. Lee 2nd has the water volume of all these cases, so I'm good to go there.

I've also been recommended N110 which I'll also nab as soon as I can find a shop that actually carries VV. Every one I've asked so far says the local distributor is an *** and noone wants to deal with him. Sad for me and anyone else looking ot buy VV powder...

[44man]

wow, that is simple and awesome advice. Lee 2nd has the water volume of all these cases, so I'm good to go there.

I've also been recommended N110 which I'll also nab as soon as I can find a shop that actually carries VV. Every one I've asked so far says the local distributor is an *** and noone wants to deal with him. Sad for me and anyone else looking ot buy VV powder...
I have the same problem with my store. He only carries what sells best and will only get me a certain powder if I order 8#.
Makes no sense because he can mix 1# canisters with an order.

[ss40_70]

hey i have a dumb question

what about using good old reliable cheap easy to find 2400 for a cast boolit powder
all the talk about case volume and 45-70's ... heck 2400 works great for me in the 45-70 and i have it handy in a 8lb jug .. and thinking along the same line .. why not aa5744

[subsonic]

Try it. I think the reason SR4759 is so effective is that it's super bulky and so fills the case and stays oriented against the primer pretty well. It's hollow tube shaped.

If you have Varget, it might be worth a try.

[ratboy]

is there any other gas checked boolits available for the 460 other than the lee 300 grain?
i have been looking for something in the 230-250 range to play with. i have been unable to find anything and dont want to be stuck with jword boolits.

:Fire:
perhaps this would be a good idea for a group buy?
before i try to make my own mold?:coffeecom

[ss40_70]

as a matter of fact i have a brand new can of varget

[subsonic]

The .460, can be loaddd with any .452"ish boolit like for a .45 colt or .454 casull. But I am taking a guess that you are going to have your best success with heavier boolits, like 340gr and up.

I don't own one. But if I had one I'd experiment to find out what works. Anybody want to donate one to science?[smilie=1:

[subsonic]

Another guess here, you're only going to be able to get about 40gr of Varget in a .460 with a 300gr boolit before you run out of room and prussure and velocity will be well below the top end. There is a little 4227 & 4198 data in the Hodgdon annual manual.

[aussie460mag]

Hi,

I have been tuning my 460 S&W using adi2205 (4227) and the 300gr lee using WDWW, I found 36gr of 2205 tightened up the groups with that powder, still nowhere near the groups of 34gr of 2205 using 250gr XTPs.

I experimented with some 296 yesterday with no luck, i think i might have to start changing other variables.

[Whiterabbit]

Hi aussie,

S&W X-frame, or BFR460?

Thanks,


Edit:

I've got my long bullet sampler all set up to play with, should all be very slow, and very very long.

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=40014&stc=1&d=1327199180

330 grain GC, 370 grain PB (different oal not a mistake), 450 grain GC, and 500 grain GC (comes out to about 512 after the gas check and lube)



I'm surprised how easy it was to size the .457 down to .453

[aussie460mag]

S&W x frame 8 inch bbl

I have been wondering what it would be like to size a 500gr .457 down... I was thinking in 2 stages .454 then down to .452

[subsonic]

Just go easy with the stuff over 400gr as there is no data for that and pressure may climb very fast with small changes in charge weight. If there is a place for slower powders (1680, 4198, Varget), this is it. You might not have enough twist for the heavier stuff. I like the looks of that 450gr! You might look at Ranch dog's 350gr GC for the .45-70 leverguns if you are sizing down.

[Whiterabbit]

Aussie, the Xframe is easy. It likes the light hot stuff. that 300 grain bullet of yours will shoot great with 28 grains of #9. At least to 25 yards, I can guarantee that.

The 500 grain 457 sized from 457 (or whatever it dropped at, I don't know, actually) to 453 in one shot and worked GREAT. Not any more difficult than a 454 to 452.

sub, I may just be pinging you and the others for advice on my loads, after dinner or later, just as a second pair of eyes, though I am darn sure my test loads are WAY conservative.

http://www.reloadammo.com/460sw.htm

Bottom of the page. 30 grains lilgun, 500 grain bullet @ 1400 fps. does NOT sound like fun. My loads should be a good bit slower than that!

[subsonic]

Looking at some of what you have, you may have trouble with some of those shallow seated boolits pulling from recoil. Can you crimp in a groove?

Make sure they all exit the barrel before firing the next shot, in case you have gotten *too* conservative.

[Whiterabbit]

Sub, you bet. Thank you for the reminder. Easy to get complacent. I've done as much testing as I possibly can with jumping crimp, and rounds much much hotter than these never did. They were of course all lighter bullets too. I will absolutely keep an eye out.

These rounds have light or moderate crimping into lube grooves or crimp grooves, I don;t expect problems. We'll see though! Frankly, any change would be welcome, even if for the worse. I've already learned a TON about what doesn't work in the bfr!

My powder charges should be in the same category, conservative but not TOO conservative. I have lilgun and AA#9 data for cast performance bullets which is linear and interpolatoable to 500 grains. I've done it before with AA#9 and the 340 grain penn bullet and hit the max load square on the nose. Since I don;t want to be anywhere near max, I took 10% off my theoretical max #9 loads and used THAT as my max (after I rounded down to the nearest grain). I'm testing three loads, subtracting a smidge more powder for lighter loads.

I know I'm not TOO light because LEE manual says I can go to 50% max with AA#9 without ignition problems, and I've tested this with the 300 grain LEE bullet and know it to be reliable (for me). As long as I use magnum primers. So none of my loads are anywhere near 50% and my max loads are still just under 10% the theoretical max.

Maybe no accuracy. But should give me a baseline.

[Whiterabbit]

actually, I have this aesthetic thing in my head that demands I seat every bullet I can to absolute max OAL. I really just don't need the case capacity here though. I could almost actually fill the end of the cylinder with the 500's, though. Almost. So these are quite a bit deeper.

[subsonic]

You may find that seating deeper works better as long as you have some full caliber driving band in the throat of the cylinder. It's all a compromise.

Ideally, the case will have zero air space for the powder to move around in, but the powder will not be compressed. The boolit will have a short jump the forcing cone (so it doesn't get much of a run at the rifling and engraves at a slower velocity instead of trying to strip), and there will be enough boolit in the case for it to stay put under recoil and stay in the case until the powder gets going (boolit pull). So far I have had decent luck with half of the boolit length in the case and at a bare minimum one caliber (.452" in your case) of boolit length in the case.

But try it and see what works for you.

What alloy are you using?

[44man]

I used to believe all the stuff years ago about needing a boolit close to the forcing cone. Those thoughts have taken some fine, expensive guns being made with cylinders too short for much use requiring bullet makers to move crimp grooves.
The very most accurate revolvers I have ever shot are the BFR 45-70's and the boolit nose is 9/16" from the end of the cylinder. Mine has done well under 1" at 100 and friends bring 4 more out to shoot. All have done as well.
Over the years many boolits have had large jumps in my revolvers. Yeah, I looked at them but found it means nothing at all.
In the end it is very bad to load to the very end of the cylinder. For instance we shot some factory cast from a .454 that had super tight crimps and after 2 or 3 shots, the gun was locked up from a boolit moving a few thousandths. Now imagine shooting at a bear coming and having the gun lock! These rounds even locked a SRH.
I then shot my loads from the guns and never had a boolit pull but I would never put my faith in anything for dangerous game.
Then, moving to test boolits too heavy for a caliber had about every boolit pull, no way to hold them with brass unless you pin them in. There are limits and it is best to leave well enough alone.
We have never found accuracy with over weight boolits, some hit sideways at 50, penetration was poor and boolits turned in wet paper tests.
We even tried the 405 gr .44 and the 700 gr in the .500 S&W. Both were sad, sad, sad. Just fun tests in the end.

[Whiterabbit]

good stuff to know. the overweight bullets are just a tester to see if 1:16 really does prefer long stuff to 100-to-20 gain twist. Like you said, a fun test.

I just realized that I WON'T be able to test for bullet pull this time around because the plan is to shoot them one at a time. All of them. So if I see any success here or potential, the pull test will come next. Also good to know heavies may have more tendency to pull. Based on my reloading methods, I can't physically get 300 grain bullets to pull no matter how hot I load.

As for alloy, I notice my alloy is a bit softer than another member here, also slightly softer than commercial hardcast. Not a scientific test, I just used a spring loaded center pinch on the noses and noticed my own bullets imprint a very slight but noticeably larger hole.

Big reason I'm using aa#9 for these tests (besides that I have it) is that it is super forgiving on cartridge airspace. As long as I use a magnum primer I can severely download and have no ignition problems (yet). That's been absolutely tested in the past with 300 grain LEE bullets, running a single variable test changing nothing except powder charge.

Hopefully I get some free time today to go plinking.

[ratboy]

is there any other gas checked boolits available for the 460 other than the lee 300 grain?
i have been looking for something in the 230-250 range to play with. i have been unable to find anything and dont want to be stuck with jword boolits.

:Fire:
perhaps this would be a good idea for a group buy?
before i try to make my own mold?:coffeecom

has anyone tried the saeco 945 in a 460?

[Whiterabbit]

no, but I've shot PB 250's, they seem to do WAY better than 300+ PB.

But here's the result from the 500 grain bullets:

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/imagehosting/200824f1cbda4a5d70.jpg

Which I am thrilled to see. Keeping in mind I am not the best pistolero so there must be my own induced error there. Shot off hand, and I only loaded 15 of those, 5 each of 3 different powder charges. With a bullet I've never used before with no existing load data! Shot-in-the-dark, and I got a group like that. I'd say there is potential there!

SWAG speed is around 1000 fps, peak pressure (with lilgun, not #9) should get me to 1400. Meaning I have plenty of room to move, up and down. Recoil was fantastic, a pleasure to shoot. I REALLY want to try this again on sandbags to see what I can do.

I think you guys were right (REALLY right) about the BFR preferring really heavy bullets over the light ones shot at ultrahigh speed.

[44man]

I have three BFR's and friends have many, many more. The large range of boolit weights we have shot with superb accuracy is amazing.
The .475 does not like under 400 gr.
The 45-70 is confusion because it loves 300 gr but all the way to 450 gr that I have tested so far, it is deadly accurate. The 1 in 14" twist? The darn gun has shot a bunch of 1/4" 50 yard groups with 350 to 360 gr boolits. My 317 gr does 5/16".
The .500 JRH is amazing and I only made one mold for it so far. It has done this at 50 yards with the boolit so I don't think I am going to change any more then the alloys.
Don't ask me to do it again! [smilie=l: These are normal 50 yard groups for 10 shots.
Pictures came out reversed.

[subsonic]

How did the other boolits do?

I would have put money on something in the 350-400gr area doing best, but maybe not.

What range did you shoot the 500gr target?

[Whiterabbit]

the 370's shot JUST like the penn 340's. Keyhole. I don't know why, but below the 340 they don't tumble, and the 450 500 were both no problem.

The 330's are almost identical to my LEE mold, and shot the same at the range.

----------

Looks like the 450 is actually a 425 gr mold which comes to about 435-440 grains in reality, after gas check and lube.

The 450 shot just as well as the 500's, sort of. I had some flyers which I have to attribute to the shooter, not the loads. But just like the 500's I only loaded 15 of the 450's, 5 each of 3 charges. The WEAKEST 450 load shot about as good as the STRONGEST 500 load. Both 20 grains of powder.

The 450 group that did the best might have more potential. The group size was about the same, but there was one flyer (first shot, and the first time I've ever shot anything over 400 grains, maybe psychology there), and the other 4 made two 2-hole groups, about 2.5-3 inches apart. Literally bullet holes touching, but 2 distinct locations.

So maybe the 450's (435?440?) did better, and discrepancies with the poor shooter resulted in the different group. Maybe I changed my grip after the first three or something.

I would have taken a quick shot of that group too, but there was the flyer, and none of these groups are anything to write home about, compared to you guys. Sadly, the range was 25 yards, as I could not get out to the outdoor range this weekend and had to settle for the indoor one close by.

------------------

Actually, you can see the group. Look at the target picture, you'll see four pieces of masking tape to cover bullet holes. One in the middle/bottom is obviously covering two touching holes. the leftmost tape looks like a single hole, but it is actually two, the tape is holding one of the holes closed. But you can see it's a bigger than normal hole. The tape way at the top of the picture is the flyer.

pic is worth 1000 words:
http://castboolits.gunloads.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=40099&stc=1&d=1327362671

[Whiterabbit]

I'm told this is the mold for that bullet:

http://www.ranchdogoutdoors.com/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=1_5_14&products_id=30

[subsonic]

Don't forget that you have a lot more variables than just weight there. Boolit shape, gas checks or not, and I haven't heard anything about alloy or heat treat. Keep at it though, just remember to consider all the variables. Seems you are on the right track, but not at the destination yet. I'd really like to see what that RD 350 gr does...

[subsonic]

And maybe the heavies shoot better because the powder burns more efficiently behing them or they do better when slamming into the rifling?

[Whiterabbit]

it's all possible. I realize now that no matter the alloy, at the end of the day the penn bullet was without gas check, and so were the 370's. so it's definitely possible a good 350 with a gas check will be right where I want to be.

Next step for sure though is to retest the old test at a longer distance rested. I'll push the 500's a little harder too since they did best at the top of the loading.

[ss40_70]

a funny thing happened to me today .. i was cruising walmart sporting goods today and i noticed the hunting stuff was marked down .

and then my eyes happened upon something odd that didnt look right . hornaday .50 cal sst muzzle loader sabots for $3.79 per box of 20 . i bought the last 4 boxes . and sure enough the bullets are .4515

anyone else ever use these for pistol bullets ..
i am going to try them with 2400 maybe 33 grains to start with

[Thor's Daddy]

a funny thing happened to me today .. i was cruising walmart sporting goods today and i noticed the hunting stuff was marked down .

and then my eyes happened upon something odd that didnt look right . hornaday .50 cal sst muzzle loader sabots for $3.79 per box of 20 . i bought the last 4 boxes . and sure enough the bullets are .4515

anyone else ever use these for pistol bullets ..
i am going to try them with 2400 maybe 33 grains to start with

I may be new at this game, but I'd advise that you contact Hornady directly and ask them. Their digits are 1-800-338-3220.

If I had to venture a guess, it'd be that the sabot slugs are not up to the rigors that the .460 S&W puts forth upon a projectile.

In the end, there's only two ways to find out.

[subsonic]

You can use those sst bullets, but there is no crimp groove so they may pull. Depending on velocity, they may or may not work well on game.

[subsonic]

it's all possible. I realize now that no matter the alloy, at the end of the day the penn bullet was without gas check, and so were the 370's. so it's definitely possible a good 350 with a gas check will be right where I want to be.

Next step for sure though is to retest the old test at a longer distance rested. I'll push the 500's a little harder too since they did best at the top of the loading.

I would re-test with the 450 and 500s. Dry fire a little before you shoot and try to drop the hammer without moving the dot.

SR4759:wink: if it wasn't so much trouble to ship, I'd send you some powder to try.

[Whiterabbit]

Do you plunk your bullet on top of the powder for SR4759? Just a teeny amount of air in there? Can it be compressed (as in, I didn't perfectly measure powder volume and accidentally seated the bullet .5 mm too low kind of compression)?

I find it hard to judge with a micrometer where the powder level is inside a case, even with the wide mouth of the 45 straightwalls. Any good techniques for accurately measuring powder volume level inside a charged and ready-to-seat cartridge? If I stuck a .44" aluminum rod down there, would any of the powder tend to get stuck to the rod and pull out?

[44man]

Do you plunk your bullet on top of the powder for SR4759? Just a teeny amount of air in there? Can it be compressed (as in, I didn't perfectly measure powder volume and accidentally seated the bullet .5 mm too low kind of compression)?

I find it hard to judge with a micrometer where the powder level is inside a case, even with the wide mouth of the 45 straightwalls. Any good techniques for accurately measuring powder volume level inside a charged and ready-to-seat cartridge? If I stuck a .44" aluminum rod down there, would any of the powder tend to get stuck to the rod and pull out?
Not knowing the .460, I don't know. In the 45-70 there is a lot of air space. 4759 is a fast powder but it is bulky and was sold in 1/2# jugs for a long time. It is a little slower then 296 but not as slow as 4227 yet uses more air space.
The problem is finding starting and max loads for the powder. Nothing is listed.
I dare not suggest a load for the .460. Too light a load might not ignite and it does not have to fill the case to the boolit.
The powder is ignored too much in manuals.
I have contacted Hodgdon many times for a powder and the answer is always that they have no info.
I never had that problem from IMR, they always gave me answers.
Just why such a great powder is ignored drives me nuts.

[Whiterabbit]

What I meant by the question is when you are loading 45/70 using SR4759 for your load in your gun, do YOU plunk the bullet right on top of the powder, or do you leave lots of air inside your cartridge.

Do you ever compress any of your 4759 loads?

[aussie460mag]

What lube are you guys using for your 460s?

[44man]

What I meant by the question is when you are loading 45/70 using SR4759 for your load in your gun, do YOU plunk the bullet right on top of the powder, or do you leave lots of air inside your cartridge.

Do you ever compress any of your 4759 loads?
I just measured and I have 3/8" between the boolit and powder. I use some Dacron on the powder but my friend does not, little difference.

[subsonic]

I have some data for SR4759 in the .45-70 that I will dig up and share. Like I said, you can get pretty close using the percent of case volume thing. And the SR4759 data I have is for trapdoor rifles, and the .460 will take a lot more than they will.

BTW, did you ever figure out what the % change is Rabbit? The case is about .3" shorter IIRC.

[Whiterabbit]

First step was the translation from lilgun (only 500 grain data I have) to AA#9 (the safer powder I have), so I haven't done the calculation yet for volume % change from 45/70 yet. That'll be the next step when I source a pound of 4759 to play with.

If I start goofing around with powder charges, would you say its wiser to maintain uniform OAL or uniform distance from bullet base to powder top (or doesnt matter).

aussie, i'm using an equal part mix of paraffin, beeswax, and high temp oil. It still leads but any lead pushes right out if I care to clean, no stickage. I'm not saying it's good, but it works for me and is easy and cheap. The leading doesn't bother me if adhesion is poor.

[subsonic]

In general (with simlar boolit design), if OAL stays the same but powder capacity (air space) changes, boolit weight has changed. Boolit weight would be your primary factor in powder charge requirement. Heavier needs less, lighter can use more powder.

With revolvers, varying seating depth doesn't really work out, unless you have more than one groove to crimp in. You need to seat to a crimp groove and roll crimp if possible. If no groove is available, you should roll crimp over the ogive or front driving band.

Leave the OAL alone with a given boolit.

[Whiterabbit]

I don't understand the first paragraph, when you load a new bullet don't you try different powder charges with the same bullet to see if one is more accurate than the other? Like (fake numbers here) 20 grains of powder, 21 grains, 22 grains, etc. the bullet weight doesn't change when you load the same bullet into each of these.....

Did I miscommunicate something?

[44man]

He might have said it a little funny but what he meant was, as the charge changes, so does the airspace.
Seat the boolit the same all the time, like crimp groove only.
As you change boolit weights, powder requirements change and capacity also changes from different powder levels. Not overall case capacity of course. Just air space changes.

[subsonic]

He might have said it a little funny but what he meant was, as the charge changes, so does the airspace.
Seat the boolit the same all the time, like crimp groove only.
As you change boolit weights, powder requirements change and capacity also changes from different powder levels. Not overall case capacity of course. Just air space changes.

That's it. My brain don't work like most.:drinks:

[Whiterabbit]

ok, the suggestion is keep the OAL the same, sounds good. It's pretty much the way I and anyone else I read does it anyways too. I know there are some unconventional ideas here that certainly yield results, is why I ask.

As for different charges for different weights, that's reloading 101! I'd be up a creek without a paddle and only 9 fingers if I wasn't aware of that one!

[subsonic]

As in any experiment, change only one variable at a time if at all possible!

[Whiterabbit]

In my field we call that a single-variable test, as opposed to a Design of Experiment :).

[subsonic]

If you want to play, there could be some slight advantage to seating deeper with reduced charges. But by that I mean crimping over the ogive or choosing a boolit with a crimp groove located further forward. Think .38 wadcutters.

But by crimping over the ogive you may be giving up good alignment an support in the cylinger throat from a forward driving band area. As mentioned, it's all a compromise. A tight chambered gun that is well lined up, like most BFRs, might be ok without the extra support.

[Whiterabbit]

Got a chance to benchtest at 50 yards, here are some results.

Notes:

#1 - I am a crappy pistol shooter
#2 - Only made 5 rounds of each load. So if I was not "on", I didn't have a second chance. NO repeatability test rounds (yet!)
#3 - Previous best groups for me are basically "in the black" at 25 yards offhand, and "on paper" at 75 yards rested.
#4 - ALL groups are 5 rounds
#5 - Only intentional changes made are powder type and charge. Used AA#9 and IMR4198
#6 - One test group uses 440 grain bullets, the rest are 500 grain.

Enough with feeling sorry for myself! Here are the groups.

First group of the day. I hope round 1 and 2 are just warmup fliers! 500/#9/21gr
http://castboolits.gunloads.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=40481&stc=1&d=1328471145 (paper says 20 grains of powder, it was actually 21 grains.)

500/#9/20 grains of powder
http://castboolits.gunloads.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=40482&stc=1&d=1328471162

440 grain bullet test, 20 grains AA#9. Unfortunately POI was smack on top of a 7x57 test group, but there ARE 5 bullet holes in there.
http://castboolits.gunloads.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=40484&stc=1&d=1328471202

500/#9/22gr. Now we are cooking with fire! (recoil is getting a bit stiff. But STILL lighter than a 200 grain bullet with 50 grains of H110! I'm gonna stop using H110 from now on!)
http://castboolits.gunloads.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=40485&stc=1&d=1328471222

4198/25 grains. I like this one alot!
http://castboolits.gunloads.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=40488&stc=1&d=1328471326

4198/26 grains. If those two are flyers, there's some potential here!
http://castboolits.gunloads.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=40487&stc=1&d=1328471276

IMR4198/27 grains
http://castboolits.gunloads.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=40486&stc=1&d=1328471250 kinda crappy

4198/28 grains. opening up.
http://castboolits.gunloads.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=40489&stc=1&d=1328471351

Conclusions:

My gun DOES NOT LIKE 330 grain cast bullets. 440 and 500, seems like lots of potential. I'm excited about reloading 50 or so of the best loads and trying again at 100 yards.

I'm pretty happy with the groups, given my relative lack of skill.

[Whiterabbit]

oh and no one carries 4759, but after I called my favorite shop, they independently ordered it just for stock (they rock!) So I bought a pound right then and there before it was even shipped. So I'll get to start all over again with 4759, too.

[subsonic]

Looking good!

Good job!

[joie777]

In my 460 i cast 300 grain bullets with gas checks and lube them with hard lube and have had excellent results with it i use starline brass and h110 powder with Winchester lg rifle primers the mold i use is a lee six cavity its cheaper to shoot since i make my own bullets and store bought ammo is expensive when the weather get better i go shoot some targets and post them.

[ratboy]

i have a lyman 452490 that i am playing with. i got some loaded with 42 grains of h110 and i also loaded some with 32 grains of 2400 just to have a place to start. i have not gotten a chance to see if they will even hit the paper yet so maybe next weekend.:coffee: i am hoping to find some thing other than h110 because it is really loud in anything i seem to load it in. i will give 4198 a chance since i have some. this will all be going out of a s&w so my result may be different than many of you.
:Fire:

[Whiterabbit]

In my 460 i cast 300 grain bullets with gas checks and lube them with hard lube and have had excellent results with it i use starline brass and h110 powder with Winchester lg rifle primers the mold i use is a lee six cavity its cheaper to shoot since i make my own bullets and store bought ammo is expensive when the weather get better i go shoot some targets and post them.

is this a S&W? I had better luck with #9 and the LEE 300 grainers with an X-frame. care to share your powder charge? I was using about 42 grains.

[subsonic]

I was just looking on accuratmolds.com and saw these 3 molds listed "for" the .460 s&w:

http://www.accuratemolds.com/bullet_detail.php?bullet=45-400A-D.png
http://www.accuratemolds.com/bullet_detail.php?bullet=45-400B-D.png
http://www.accuratemolds.com/bullet_detail.php?bullet=45-500S-D.png

Interesting, no?

BTW, I plan to order some more molds from Tom. Very nice!

[Whiterabbit]

Very. I've had my eye on them for some time now. NEVER even considered it because "the 460 was designed to launch light bullets at warp speed" and all my loads had been going down that path for the past year. Never even gave the heavies a third thought till I exhausted my other options. Kept thinking "make light bullets work" at all costs.

Till I nabbed that lee mold and figured it was only $30 if I can't size 458's down to 452. (didnt know it was workable)

Definitely looking at them with a closer eye now, but at the end of the day I keep asking myself what they would do that the lee mold I have now doesn't. Tom could put crimp rings wherever I want, but none of my loads has jumped crimp yet. He could change the lube grooves, but I don't have a big leading problem yet with these. Tom might make a mold that is a JOY to use, and the lee could never. But at least it's better than the 300 grain mold (real clunker), and the bullets keep falling right out so far. They get sticky, I'll rush to accurate molds right quick.

That's the bottom line though. I have a hard time seeing what a new 500 grain bullet mold can do that the current one doesn't.

gosh they look fantastic though, don't they?

[Whiterabbit]

Looking at them real quick with a new eye, I can tell you for ABSOLUTE sure that they were made for shooting in a S&W. The crimp groove is located so they will fill the cylinder of an X-frame to the very end.

Were it a BFR, it wouldn't matter. Seating just the gas check and nothing else, the bullet still wouldn't reach the cylinder end! :)

[subsonic]

While you are having good results with your Lee molds, and I also would be happy with that, there is room for improvement with a boolit that is optimized for the job from a mold that starts closer to the right diameter and casts better quality boolits.

Places the lees will let you down are:
Square boolit bases (sprue plate not held down)
Concentric boolit halves (worse with wear)
Uniform diameters (has to do with closing)
Longevity
Limited designs or poor copies of good designs
And overall production satisfaction and speed.

There is no reason to spend more if you're happy though. I like the Lee 6 cavity molds a lot when they are avaialable in a design I like. The 2 cavity....:takinWiz::takinWiz:

[Whiterabbit]

Yeah, I can tick off the limitations I experience right down your list. closing the mold on those 2 cavites. I was seriously impressed with the 500 grain mold cause it's OK, (unlike my lyman which is an utter joy), but my 300 lee is AWFUL. It feels like I'm closing an accordion.

I suppose I could see that alone as a reason to buy an Accurate Mold, and in steel.

[Whiterabbit]

OK, got to get out to 100 yards, shot better than I ever have before. Feels like I'm actually making appreciable forward progress with respect to accurate shooting.

This was the best target for the day, it has five 5-round groups on it:

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=40772&stc=1&d=1329086668

Each is a different load I was testing. Best group by far was The same load that shot best last week:

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=40773&stc=1&d=1329086760
3.25" is a personal best for me, for sure. And still room for improvement!

But by far the biggest surprise was this group:

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=40774&stc=1&d=1329086840

I bought some .458 plain base bullets from another member here to try, identical to the LEE bullets but without the flat nose and without the gas check.

PB bullets NEVER worked before. No load, no powder, no way. Nothing I ever did. Now this load without the gas check is only 1" bigger than with GC! And this is just a first pass test. They had lube on them already, so maybe my own lube will shrink the group to an identical size.

Which if it did, would let me ditch gas checks entirely. That would open up a WHOLE NEW WORLD to me trying to get all this to work well.

[Whiterabbit]

Most important, more so than groups, is that this is gonna be a hunting gun. So with these loads I went over to the steels area and shot at some dinner-plate sized hanging steels completely freehand at 100 yards. Was not hard at ALL to hit steel. on a simple rest (single carpeted block) 100% of the shots made steel. 3 of 5 or better off hand were in the steels.

Little more fine tuning and ALOT more personal improvement/practice and this gun will be good to go off hand for hunting (still animals) within 100 yards. I'm thrilled.

[subsonic]

Looking pretty good. Keep at it.

Do you have any idea what velocity you're getting?

[Whiterabbit]

sadly, I've gotten so deep into uncharted territory I can't even SWAG anymore.

The load is 25 grains of IMR4198 pushing a 500 grain bullet in a case that is somewhere between 72%-75% the case capacity of 45/70.

http://www.reloadersnest.com/detail.asp?CaliberID=91&Powder=IMR+4198&LoadID=9942
45/70: 24 grains powder, 520 grain bullet, 1250 fps. (32" barrel?)

http://data.hodgdon.com/cartridge_load.asp
trapdoor loads, 45/70, 4198: 30.5 grains powder, 485 grain bullet, 1364 fps, 17ksi pressure.

--------------------------

Seriously NO idea, and can't afford a chronograph for some time. Do you have any SWAG? The perceived recoil is beyond ok. Seriously pleasant. tiny fraction compared to 200 grain bullet at 2400 fps (barnes max load)

[subsonic]

No swags. Maybe a wag of 1000fps.

You can catch a basic chrony on sale at times for $70 or so + shipping. Good enough for most uses.

I don't know if that's in your budget or not.

Here is some SR4759 and imr 4198 data from my Hornady 8th edition load book.
This is in a 16" .45-70 Contender:
http://i1179.photobucket.com/albums/x386/Dennis_Doza/ac34c804.jpg
This is in a 29" .45-70 trapdoor:
http://i1179.photobucket.com/albums/x386/Dennis_Doza/a357bb3e.jpg

You're still pretty far out dude.

This is from the 2012 Hodgdon manual. The data at the top with the 395 CPB WLNGC is .460 data in a 10.743" S&W. Below that is 15" .45-70 data, the bottom shows 485gr with H4198.
http://i1179.photobucket.com/albums/x386/Dennis_Doza/cc91f2b8.jpg
Sorry for the bad pic. The paper is very shiny on this one.

[Whiterabbit]

1000 is fine by me, 800 is fine by me, 400 is fine by me, with one caveat.

Let's imagine a 500 grain bullet travelling along at 1000 fps. What's the biggest animal I could take with that given standard vitals or shoulder shots? What's the heaviest pig YOU would be comfy taking with a round like that?

[stubshaft]

1000 is fine by me, 800 is fine by me, 400 is fine by me, with one caveat.

Let's imagine a 500 grain bullet travelling along at 1000 fps. What's the biggest animal I could take with that given standard vitals or shoulder shots? What's the heaviest pig YOU would be comfy taking with a round like that?

There isn't a pig alive that I would hesitate to shoot with a 500gr boolit at 1000fps.

[subsonic]

In your shoes, i woul make sure velocity was over 950fps. I doubt you are that low, but 400fps is scary slow, like asking for a squib.

You have enough weight and likely enough speed to do what you need to do. The question is how will that boolit perform on contact with pork. That is something I can't answer. I woul defer to the serial killers of big game on the forum.

The 500gr boolit in your pic on pg3 doesn't have much meplat. But the 450s do.
If you get expansion, the 500 might work well. It's hard to say.

What alloy are you casting from?

[Whiterabbit]

right now, minimal alloy lead. Minimal antimony, a bit of tin. That's not the plan for the hunting bullets. I don't really want to get into details about it right now because of the focus on accuracy and loading (for lead), but for hunting the alloy is going to need to be a non-lead alloy. Something tin, zinc, or bismuth based.

the 400 fps was just a random number stated, my intent was to communicate that my desire is load development for hunting, rather than trying to hit a velocity or energy target or even bullet weight. If my gun liked 165 grain bullets, great! That's all.

The 500 grain bullets I'm using are RN but flat tipped, you are right about the small meplat. But it looks like I won't lose too much bullet length if I use another mold with a larger meplat, the roundover on the RN is pretty sharp radiused.

[subsonic]

You must be trying to hunt in CA?

Read the third reply down about copper zink alloys. Bumped into it yesterday.
http://www.mountainmolds.com/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=11&t=201

[subsonic]

Also, alloy will play a large role in your accuracy quest. Soft alloys require more bearing length in order to not strip the rifling. Heavier boolits generally have more bearing length. Copper jackets and gas checks tend not to strip as easily as even hard lead alloy. Think about the "freebore jump" your boolits get before they crash into the rifling.... And now consider the S&W gain twist rifling on the X frame .460s.

[Whiterabbit]

absolutely noted. But I have to crawl before I can run, and if I try to crawl with jogging shoes I'm gonna get into trouble real fast.

3.25" at 100 yards, I'm still crawling! Especially when that's the "good day" or "good group" group. The "repeatable" group is more like 6" at 100 yards.

Definitely still crawling.

[subsonic]

6" @ 100yds is better than a lot of folks will tell you is possible with ANY handgun.... :bigsmyl2: I guess save for the "hand rifles" like T/C's and XP100s. Most people beleive those are more accurate than rifles.

So, you're doing fine there. You should be trying to shoot animals inside of 50 yards, or better yet, 20yds. Your accuracy is plenty good for that. I know, I know, pot calling the kettle black here because I'm chasing groups like 44man shoots.... :bigsmyl2:

When you go to a new non-lead alloy... your whole process will have to start over.

Myself, I'd move or shoot Barnes X-bullets. Monkeying with the non-lead stuff is probably not worth it for the few you will shoot when hunting. That zinc is bad stuff to breathe and must be run really hot.

[Whiterabbit]

Ahead of you there, too. ALready contacted Barnes and asked for confirmation of their longest bullet. It's the 290 grain tipped muzzleloader bullet, they say 1.3" long, will expand from 1000-1800 fps.

I don't know about the 1.3" though, maybe that's with the sabot rather than raw.

But I like it better than their XPB's, I understand they need to be shot FAST to expand. And they only come in 200 and 275, and the 200's group bigger than my cast 500's. It's like lose-lose-lose.

Good chance the TMZ bullets will do better.

----------

But that's still future stuff. Long ways off.

[ratboy]

i have a lyman 452490 that i am playing with. i got some loaded with 42 grains of h110 and i also loaded some with 32 grains of 2400 just to have a place to start. i have not gotten a chance to see if they will even hit the paper yet so maybe next weekend.:coffee: i am hoping to find some thing other than h110 because it is really loud in anything i seem to load it in. i will give 4198 a chance since i have some. this will all be going out of a s&w so my result may be different than many of you.
:Fire:

i got a chance to shoot these today. it was too windy and informal to try to get a proper group with them. they all shot minute of pop can at 25 yards and didnt lead the barrel. i prefered the 2400 loads because they were a bit quieter. i didnt chrony these so i do not know how fast they are but the primers show that the pressures are ok. now that i determined that these load are ok i will try to get some proper groups and some chrony #s. it was just too tempting to use the weather today to shoot water bottles:mrgreen:

[Whiterabbit]

Tried the SR4759 last weekend. the groups were TERRIBLE. 6" at best. I'm not done with it yet, but it's not looking good. I'll try to push a little more and re-test the best loads, but I'm not encouraged.

I really like how it meters compared to IMR4198. For that reason alone I bought some H4198 just to try, looks like it'll meter better.

[subsonic]

Which boolits did you try with the 4759? Round holes or signs of tumbling?

[Whiterabbit]

perfectly round holes with the 500 grain bullets, ~2.5 calibers long. Best bullet I've used yet (with imr 4198 though).

My gun only wants to tumble PB bullets 300-370 grains? weird.

I've tried these 500's with trailboss, #9, H110, 4198, now 4759, and soon 4895. None tumbled. Not even the crappy grouping (wrong powder charge) loads.

[Whiterabbit]

I have another clue.

demoralized with poor 100 yard performance, I moved to 50 yards and find the 4198's and 4659's shoot GREAT! really great. One 4759 load in particular shot close to 1 inch. across a 4 grain spread of powder charges, the groups stayed pretty consisted to 2.5-2" or better.

Moved back to 100 yards, the groups were terrible again!

Something is happening in between 50 and 100, and I don't know what it is.

[subsonic]

I have another clue.

demoralized with poor 100 yard performance, I moved to 50 yards and find the 4198's and 4659's shoot GREAT! really great. One 4759 load in particular shot close to 1 inch. across a 4 grain spread of powder charges, the groups stayed pretty consisted to 2.5-2" or better.

Moved back to 100 yards, the groups were terrible again!

Something is happening in between 50 and 100, and I don't know what it is.

You need a chronograph.

Did the 4759 loads seem to recoil less than the others? IE, less velocity?
Can you safely bump them up a little to get stability?

Hard to answer for sure without a chrono and also being that far out in space with loads.

http://www.midwayusa.com/product/531741/shooting-chrony-f1-chronograph

$75 plus shipping on sale til 4/30

Maybe not the chrono for measuring your benchrest gun, but good enough for what the rest of us do and way better than a guess. And you can always sell it and save for a better one later! :drinks:

Oh yeah, don't shoot it on accident. :Fire::groner:

[Whiterabbit]

Yes, I really need a chronograph. desperately! Based on what I'm interpolating, I have a LOT of wiggle room on the pressure front. But just to be sure, I've pinged IMR to ask their opinion.

[ratboy]

34 grains of 2400 topped with a 452490 = 1650fps

[Whiterabbit]

which I can verify shoots AWESOME in my gun at ranges closer than 15 yards. :)

[ratboy]

we were shooting at full soda cans at 30 yards just to entertain ourselves. at that range the soda gets scared right out of the can.

[Whiterabbit]

X frame smith and wesson?

[ratboy]

yes sir with a 10.5 barrel which makes it awful hard to miss a pop can at 30 yards. i am trying to get some paper up to really see where i am at but there is always some kind of snag. dont like to shoot it at the public range because you cant get anything done. weather and time have been difficult to get to a friends house. a couple of quick blasting sessions is all i have managed so far with it.

[Whiterabbit]

yeah, those x frames seem to like light bullets. My best load for the X frame is the 300 grain lee bullet with #9.

On the 10.5" xframe, I have to say when I first saw the lineup the 10.5 was by far the ugliest X-frame (maybe ugliest revolvers) I had ever seen. Now that I've shot the 8 10 and 12 the 10 is by far the best looking x frame in the lineup :p

[Whiterabbit]

You need a chronograph.


Borrowed one. Means limited data, but even a couple data points without statistical significance is better than NO data!

Results:

275 grain barnes bullet w/ 42 grains H110 (control) - 2243 fps :shock::veryconfu

Good stuff, all 500 grain RNFP LEE mold:

25 grains IMR4198: 1000 fps
27 grains H4198: 1040 fps
22 grains SR4759: 1135 fps (sd of ZERO!:shock:)
24 grains SR4759: 1200 fps
27.6 grains H110: 1330 fps

So, I showed a 3.25" group a few weeks ago, I think that's like me showing my hunting rifle groups with all the holes touching. It happens, but only on a very good day.

So the any-day-of-the-week group I shoot with 3 of 5 loads up there (I'm not shooting H110 anymore. ouch!) is 8" at 100 yards. Given good days (like the 3.25"), I'd say average is 6" at 100 yards. I can do 4" at 50 yards on command, usually better. Bad day is about 9" @ 100.

Not good enough.

Another clue though. My group size does not change if I use my fancy rear "bag", a sand bag, or even limited (barely) rear resting. If I do my breathing right and get surprise trigger pull, or if I have a brain fart and jerk the trigger, no change. Whether my grip is (in my mind) consistent, or varies slightly, no group size change. If I use bare hands or wrap my palm with a strap, no change.

With these loads (I verified this), I can hit 8" steel at 100 yards with the frame rested and NO REAR SUPPORT at all.

Does this tell you the problem is the shooter?

[subsonic]

Just keep shooting and dry firing. The recoil will seem to matter less and your groups will shrink - but practice proper form only. When you notice bad habits or get tired or sloppy, stop and/or correct them. Do not re-inforce bad technique by continuing it, flinching, etc. 5 good shots are better than 100 trigger slaps. Place your trigger finger carefully on the trigger so that you are not moving the gun to the side as the trigger breaks. Pull the trigger very slowly, adding pressure until the shot breaks. Practice holding the trigger back after the shot and staying focused on the optic/sights (recoil will make this a bit tough) with your eyes open to follow through. Double up hearing protection to make the noise less - I know for me, the noise is worse than the actual recoil - even with good hearing protection.

Also, I think you know enough about statistics to realize that even a bad load can generate a few shots clustered together once in a while.

The more you shoot, the more you will realize what is really happening.

[Whiterabbit]

SOLVED.

My ultradot doesn't hold zero. Never did. Shame on the person that sold it to me.

To idiot check my ultradot, I put a 1x RIFLE scope on the BFR and just tried to do the best I could. The sight picture was terrible, the target seemed to SHRINK, not grow in the lens, but it was just supposed to be "a datapoint".

These are the results:

50 yards:

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=44739&stc=1&d=1338155696
http://castboolits.gunloads.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=44740&stc=1&d=1338155711
(can't really see because of the pasters but they ARE all clustered in darn near the same spot to the right of the 10 ring.)
http://castboolits.gunloads.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=44741&stc=1&d=1338155753

100 yards:
http://castboolits.gunloads.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=44742&stc=1&d=1338155769
This is a hunting bullet I want to use, solid copper 290 grains moving at 2000 fps. Needs a little more work. But good promise.

edit: I just measured with a ruler, that group looks deceptively big. It's only 1.75 inches across from center to center! That makes me feel even better. My goal right now is 2" at 100 yards (repeatable on a good day, 5 rounds)

The other groups at 100 were similar. for some reason I don't have photos of them.

I am MUCH, MUCH happier with the performance now. Now I feel like I am at a good "starting point" to try to practice and pretend I can one day be as good as 44man.

Rather than being to the point of throwing the towel in.

----------------------

The question is, what do I do about the ultradot? can I get it serviced? toss it and buy a new one? stick with 1x scopes, find an EER model and move on with life? Try to find irons that give me the same target acquisition speed as the ultradot?

Suggestions?

[subsonic]

See if Ultra-Dot will swap you for a good one under warranty. I'm guessing they will, if it wasn't the base or rings moving.

BTW, Great shooting!

[44man]

I have another clue.

demoralized with poor 100 yard performance, I moved to 50 yards and find the 4198's and 4659's shoot GREAT! really great. One 4759 load in particular shot close to 1 inch. across a 4 grain spread of powder charges, the groups stayed pretty consisted to 2.5-2" or better.

Moved back to 100 yards, the groups were terrible again!

Something is happening in between 50 and 100, and I don't know what it is.
Normally caused by the boolit itself, just not a good fit for velocity to twist. I would say to spin the boolit faster. The BFR has a 1 in 16" twist so it might just take a small velocity increase. Everything I have seen with the BFR's is they don't like slow! Sounds funny with the faster twist rates so imagine how hard the slower twist guns are to work with. I am still trying to figure what twist changes actually do with each gun and boolit because some with slower twists still can be accurate and even shoot slow.
The BFR 45-70 is a mystery with the 1 in 14" rate. It plain shoots anything and loves 300 to 317 gr and all the way to 450 gr. With 4759 my 317 gr is doing 1632.2 fps. The powder choice was strictly case capacity versus barrel length (10") so a shorter barrel would be even tougher to work.

[44man]

I have to add fuel to the .460 question since it has the same twist rate as the Ruger .45 Colt and this is confusing me for boolit choice.
I use a 335 gr LBT or the Lyman 452651 with 21.5 gr of 296 from my old Vaquero and both have done 1" at 75 yards from Creedmore (side of my leg.) I have dropped deer just over 100 yards off hand with those crummy sights.
These boolits are only doing 1160 fps!
It does lead me to think the longer .460 case will do better with a heavier boolit because you can bring the velocity into range but what speed would they be best?
The X frame was made for a light, very fast bullet so I don't think you can compare to the BFR.
The BFR .454 also has a 1 in 16" while others have a 1 in 24". I never liked the .454 for several reasons and found the 1 in 24" very picky. Most boolits need driven to the max.
The .460 BFR should be better because the longer case should reduce pressure with the same boolit and even with heavier.
I still have no idea how to help! :confused: Without a gun, it is guesswork for me.

[subsonic]

I think the .460 causes trouble with the lighter boolits because it CAN push them so fast. I think they simply stripping when they hit the rifling. The success with the heavies comes from the reduced speed when they hit the rifling and increased bearing surface..... or at least that's my best guess.

If it was my gun, I'd be trying something between 350-400gr with a gas check and a lot of bearing surface for weight over something like SR4759 or AA1680.

I actually think my next purchase could be a BFR in .454..... because I want a 5 shot .45 something and that gun makes the most sense.

[Whiterabbit]

Some ideas on these thoughts, cause I've been thinking about that alot too.

Miller stability numbers seem to suggest meaningful data, even with 45/70 and larger diameter bullets. But the calculation completely breaks down with 460, especially with the 200 grain bullets moving at 2400 fps.

X-frame isn't comparable at all to the BFR. the muzzle is 20" and that's awesome for stabilizing 300 grain bullets, I've done some awesome 3 round groups (if that means anything) with the LEE 300 grain bullet. Just doesn't shoot in my gun. We'll be trying the 425's and the 500's in the X-frame eventually, but it's what the BFR likes for sure. The longer the better.

I wouldn't want a 24" twist in 45 cal ANYTHING. I'd be limited to 200 grain weight class bullets driven way over 2000 fps which would pretty much limit me to jacketed or solid copper. I'd have to cast tin or zinc to shoot that twist! but I found it way easier to load for 20" twist as compared to 16".

I haven't tried 1680, but 4198 and 4759 seem to be the winners. With the 16" twist, treating the 460 like a baby 45/70 seems to yield much better results than a hot-rodded 454. Which makes me happy because it's way more pleasant to shoot, makes less noise, and a 425 or 500 grain bullet is gonna put a world of hurt on whatever's at the receiving end I am sure! Who would shoot a 200 grain solid at 2400 fps using 50 grains of H110 when they can shoot a 500 grain lead cast bullet over 25 grains of 4198?

Last thing I wanna say is that I got a chance to chrono my BFR on the same setup as a 12" X-frame. That's 10" bfr vs 12" xframe. same bullet, same load yielded a 200 fps difference between the two. My gun was faster. :)

Current favorite bullet is the ranchdog 425 grainer which is about 80% bearing surface and lube grooves about nil after sizing down to 452. I'm gonna try filling with real lube at 457 then sizing to see if that maintains the groove size (more lube) and lengthen the bullet (better for me). That might be the killer combination. But not very far off your idea of a 350-400 with lots of bearing surface. That's almost exactly what I have my best results with.

[subsonic]

Let me know when you want some of those 300gr WFNGC....

I also just got a 340gr mold. Specs in link:

http://www.castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?t=153123

When I get some of those 340gr cast up, you are welcome to a few of those too. They are not gas checked, but have plenty of bearing surface.

Tell me about this casting from pure tin.... Wal-Mart here in Missouri was clearancing some Winchester .22LR 27gr pure tin lead free ammo so I bought a box of 50 to play with. Seems like an interesting concept. Not sure why they'd stock it here in Missouri?

[Whiterabbit]

Will do. Still need to hook up with SOMEone that shoots an X-frame, since the development is for one of them (guy who hooked me up with lots of brass and lead). Missed the opportunity last weekend because I was on the 200 yard range for another project while he was on the 100.

I haven't forgotten though. Though I do have very high expectations that the hard(er) cast LEE 300's will do just fine at 100 yards through the X-frame. Seems to be an ideal bullet weight for that gun.

Maybe you are gonna have to watch your back, the non-lead folks are everywhere I am sure, trying to sneak the legislation in there.

[ratboy]

im still working on my Xframe. got sidetracked.
you know how that goes.

[Whiterabbit]

"Ultradot Distribution Inc., warrants Ultradot electronic sights to be free from defects in materials and workmanship. (Please see: Covered Defects) Ultradot Distribution, Inc., will repair or replace, as it deems most suitable, any product which is defective in material or workmanship without charge (above shipping and handling) during the warranty term of the original purchaser, provided the product is returned by the original purchaser. All costs associated with the shipment of the product are the responsibility of the original purchaser. "

The original purchaser gave me his invoice, but I'm the second owner. Seems like ultradot would either call me for a repair quote authorization (ask for money), or just turn the unit around and tell me I am SOL? Or do you read this as discouraging just anyone from sending in the UD and just buying another one?

[subsonic]

The worst thing they can say is no. Call and ask.

[44man]

It is true that you must be the original purchaser of the Ultra Dot.
Yet the thing is so tough I can't see it drifting. They are too simple inside.
The one that gave me trouble was the one that has different pictures you could dial up. Each changed POI.
Heads up displays can not take recoil with the mounts. Mount screws shear or bend.
I stay with the straight 25 or 30 mm. No dot size adjustments either.
Then you need a target you can center on and see good.
Simple is always tougher.
I will not vouch for every model Ultra Dot makes, many are made for less recoil. Just like any other red dot or scope.
Makers do not understand the severe recoil of revolvers.

[Whiterabbit]

you want to give it a try, 44man? I guarantee it'll double your group size!

[44man]

you want to give it a try, 44man? I guarantee it'll double your group size!
No, because some things just go bad. I have ruined too much.
I believe you.
Your problem is you need the original invoice from the other owner and need to go by his name. Cheating, yes and it irks me that Ultra Dot does not honor warranties for other owners.
That is not the case with Leopold and many others. Ruger does not care.
I have issues with the policy. The warranty should be transferred.

[RobsTV]

you want to give it a try, 44man? I guarantee it'll double your group size!

I had drift with a brand new 1" UltraDot used on a S&W 500 that was giving me 18" groups at 25 yards. Sent it back last week, and hope it won't take long for them to fix or repair. They replied to email the same day, and so far seem very helpful.

On a .22 pistol the dot held, but on a 500, could never get anything close to a good group. Using Warne QD rings, moved the UD to a light recoiling .40 carbine, and instantly saw the majority of issues or group size were UltraDot related. The Carbine easily allows co-witness of iron sights through the red dot. I could start with red dot on tip of front sight, then 6 shots later see the dot had moved left a good amount. 8" groups at 25 yards were result with the .40, but the drift was not consistent linear, more like jerky, so I would get 3 holes touching, then a few inches away a couple holes touching, and a few more to the left a couple more holes touching.

[Whiterabbit]

Not comfortable going by the old owners name (he did send me the original invoice with the UD). Cheating is about the nicest word for that. Not to mention the "check or money order" for return shipping would be in a different name. that would be kind of strange, yes?

I called to ask about a billable repair service, but with the multiple issues they suggested it's impossible to even get me to the ballpark without seeing it. Meaning I'll be in for $25 worth of shipping just to find out if it is worth paying to repair. That's a snowball that I'm not willing to start, anyone who's had a major car malfunction can attest to what happens when that game is played.

The lesson here is do not buy an ultradot used. It's game over if there is an issue.






FYI Robs, their tech is on vacation for a week this week. If they haven't already turned it around, it'll be a week later than you expect.

[subsonic]

Send the bad one back USPS flat-rate for $6 and see what happens. If it gets repaired you're GTG. If it's not repairable, you're only out $6 shipping. I don't know what else to tell you at this point. Sounds like you have the same luck I do!