HP-38 mishap

[PacMan]

Most probually already know this but this is what happen to me this morning.

Little history first. I had been loading and shooting 6.7 grains using WSMP behind a 160 FN GC LBT bullet in my ruger SP101 with good accuracy and no presure signs.

This morning while hog hunting the dogs crossed the river and in an effort to call them back i took aim on a spot high up in an old oak and let one fly. Well the dogs came to the shot and after catching them up i decided to reload the empty chamber.

The fired case would not bulge. Had to cut a saplin and finaly afer a lot of effort removed the case. The primer was flat/flater than any i had ever seen.

Wont go into all the details of the process i went thru after i got home (which included pulling sever and checking the charge) but bottom line is that i had always shot holding the gun level or pointed down. After a good bit of testing i realized that the HP-38 was very position sensitive and pointing almost straight up gave me a excessive over presure situation.

I was working to close to the edge and did not realize it.

I got lucky.

[btroj]

Good Example of why I don't like to push the pressure envelope with reasonably fast burning powders. Do that with 2400 or something like that and no problem. Then again, 2400 would about fill all the space in the case.

Glad you and your gun weren't hurt. This is a good learning lesson.

[35Whelen]

Sorry, from what I understand when loading position sensitive powders, isn't the idea to keep it against the primer flash hole so you don't have a flash over ( when held horizontal) and get a detonation. That is what I have always believed and been taught. That is why we use poly fiber to fill that void and keep the powder against the primer.

Sounds more like a double charge to me .

I always visually inspect all my cases after charging them with powder. A small mag light can save a big problem at the range. Learned the lesson once when a cartridge simply popped.....primer fired OK , but no boom. Got lucky and bullet stayed in the case. Pulled it when I got home...no powder.

[GabbyM]

Yep double charge.

No way a position of HP38/WW231 caused a case to stick so hard you had to drive it out.
There is a huge difference between a flier from position sensitivity and almost busting a gun. Besides that HP38 / WW231 isn't very position sensitive.

[PacMan]

First off i inspect ever charge before i seat a bullet. Secound once i got home and after i pulled three and found that the charges were right i fired two into the ground without any problems.I then fired one with the gun pointed almost straight up and again the case stuck in the cylinder.Not quite as bad but it still had to be driven out and the primer was flatten as bad as the other one was.
I also loaded two more rounds and tested,one up and one down. One pointed down was good.One pointed up the primer was flatten until the primer pocket was filled completly and the case had to be taped out.
Maybe i just happen to have two that i fired in the up pointed position that were double charged. I really doubt it.

There could be some other reason for what is happening but double charge is not one of them.

[GabbyM]

Well then that does sound shocking.
Since you can repeat it. I stand corrected.
Never was much a fan of 231/HP38 and am less of one now.

[M4bushy]

I think it's more running that load at the hairy edge of the pressure curve than position of the gun. That is a max load with a jacketed hollow point bullet, I would bet your boolit seats deeper into the case than a jhp does thus building even more pressure.

[PacMan]

I think it's more running that load at the hairy edge of the pressure curve than position of the gun. That is a max load with a jacketed hollow point bullet, I would bet your boolit seats deeper into the case than a jhp does thus building even more pressure.

Yes like i stated in my op i was working right on the edge but i had also worked up to 7.5 gr before i saw any real presure signs.I then backed dow until i got good accuarcy.

I have shot 100 + of the 6.9 gr loads with out any problems but droped to 6.7 because of a little better accuracy.

I guess my point in telling what happen was more of a heads up for guys working on the upper limit with this powder.

Another hunting trip this morning and then i plan to do some more test this afternoon.

But with limited testing yesterday i can point the gun down with a reduced load 6.5 grains and the primer will have rounded edges and cases fall out. Point it up and i have flattened primers,not as bad as the 6.7 load but flatten and the cases have to be pushed out with some force on the ejector rod.

As far as position of the gun goes all i can say is i know what my results are and they show that position of the load does have an effect on presure.
I think that with a double charge i would now be the owner of a 2 or 3 pcs Ruger


Dwight

[PacMan]

I think it's more running that load at the hairy edge of the pressure curve than position of the gun. That is a max load with a jacketed hollow point bullet, I would bet your boolit seats deeper into the case than a jhp does thus building even more pressure.

While wating for the brother to show i dug out some HP/XTP 158 grainers i had. When seated to the top of the XTP crimp grove the 160 Grain LBT takes up less powder space. When seated to the bottom of the crimp grove the LBT FN still gives a little more powder space.

Hogdon shows a max load for this bullet of 6.9 grains.

Thanks
Dwight

[Greg in va]

Most powders will do this, if you have a chrony....shoot some across it gun level, then cock the hammer back point the gun straight up and give it a shake, slowly bring the gun to level and shoot, almost always that shot will produce a higher velocity. Some powders not a lot but some a whole lot.

[Matt_G]

This is very interesting. Thanks for posting about this Dwight.
Have you run that 6.7 gr. load over a chrono by chance?
It might be worthwhile to call someone like Sierra and ask them if they had ever seen anything like this before. (position sensitivity)
Just thinking out loud here...

[PacMan]

This is very interesting. Thanks for posting about this Dwight.
Have you run that 6.7 gr. load over a chrono by chance?
It might be worthwhile to call someone like Sierra and ask them if they had ever seen anything like this before. (position sensitivity)
Just thinking out loud here...

Have not chronographed the 6.7 load but did check the 6.9 before the problem and it averaged 1103 fps for five shots in the 4" gun at 12ft.

[M4bushy]

While wating for the brother to show i dug out some HP/XTP 158 grainers i had. When seated to the top of the XTP crimp grove the 160 Grain LBT takes up less powder space. When seated to the bottom of the crimp grove the LBT FN still gives a little more powder space.

Hogdon shows a max load for this bullet of 6.9 grains.

Thanks
Dwight

That's interesting, HP-38 is my goto powder for lead boolits in 45acp. No thinking about it, as the slide chambers a round the powder must go forward once the cartridge headspaces in the chamber. Maybe that is why I don't see any position sensitive results. I also use it for 158gr cast boolit in my 627 smith but I'm only at 4.5-4.8 gr.

[Echo]

Interesting. Good work, Dwight.

[GabbyM]

That's interesting, HP-38 is my goto powder for lead boolits in 45acp. No thinking about it, as the slide chambers a round the powder must go forward once the cartridge headspaces in the chamber. Maybe that is why I don't see any position sensitive results. I also use it for 158gr cast boolit in my 627 smith but I'm only at 4.5-4.8 gr.

Fast powders work better in big bores with big cases. Room for expansion of fast burning powder. OP ever stated but I assumed a 357 magnum case. I have discovered the hard way then learned many more have also that WW231 isn’t worth a dawdle in 9x19mm except as reduced loads like 4.0 grains under a 122gr cast bullet. Go for max and things go down hill. Not to surprising it may be no good for a 357 except for light target loads.
WW231 isn’t even listed in my books with bullets over 105 grains in 357 magnum.

Have had great results with 231 / HP38 in 45 acp under 200 grain bullets. Favorite target at picnics is the big campfire marshmallows at 25 yards. 50 ft for the kids.

[Dale53]

Hodgdon's web site shows 5.0 grs of 231/HP38 MAXIMUM is 5.0 grs with a 158 gr LSWC. The OP was just loading too hot.

Bad things can happen with fast burning powders when they exceed permissible pressures, and FAST!

FWIW
Dale53

[MakeMineA10mm]

This is a good example of a characteristic of SMP231 (W231 / HP38) that is not publicized enough. This is not a position-sensitivity issue per-se. The problem is, 231 does not like to work in high-pressure loads. It is a 38 Spl. / 45 ACP powder, and it works well in other (typically high-pressure) cartridges, as long as one is loading moderate-loads in those cases. It is not a max-load, high-pressure friendly powder.

I learned this when loading the 44 Magnum. I was working on a load that moved my 270gr Heavy Keith around 1000 fps without going supersonic. I guestimated that 8.5grs was right around the 1050 area, but when I loaded some up, it was clearly supersonic. Also, the recoil, muzzle blast, and pressure signs were clearly and significantly different than when I dropped back to 8.2grs, which was subsonic (barely). Dropping back a little more to 7.5grs, and the recoil, blast, and pressure signs all dropped to nothingness - it's a very pleasant load. Now, keep in mind, 10.0 to 11.0grs of 231 is the max load range for 240-280gr bullets, so all of my testing was well below max.

If you want a warm load, look elsewhere than the 231 family of powders. In full-power loads, it's good in things like 44 Spl. (within SAAMI spec of 14,000), 38 Spl., 45ACP, 380 ACP, etc. It will work best in high-pressure & high case volume cartridges like 45 Colt, 44 Mag, and even 357 Mag, if you stick to plinking, low-pressure loads that are equivalent to the "special" caliber loads of each bore size. My guess is, it's designed to work best at or below 25,000psi.

The ONLY place I've found 231 to work well in high-pressure loads is in the 9mm. (Gabby - 4.0grs is close to max in the 9mm, depending on what bullet you're using.) 40S&W and 10mm I stick to the lower-pressure guidelines I've set for myself with the 44 Mag, 41 Mag, and 357 Mag. I haven't figured this 9mm thing out yet - perhaps it's because there's little to no unused space inside the case, so powder positioning is consistent?

[M4bushy]

Hodgdon's web site shows 5.0 grs of 231/HP38 MAXIMUM is 5.0 grs with a 158 gr LSWC. The OP was just loading too hot.

Bad things can happen with fast burning powders when they exceed permissible pressures, and FAST!

FWIW
Dale53

That would be correct for a plain base lead bullet, but the op was using a gas checked bullet. With a gas check you can dabble with the jacketed loads.



Ron

[btroj]

That would be correct for a plain base lead bullet, but the op was using a gas checked bullet. With a gas check you can dabble with the jacketed loads.



Ron

What? Pressures Is pressure. If the book says a charge is max with a lead bullet then adding a gas check doesn't increase the max charge.
The gas check may increase the pressure a bullet can handle without leading but that is not the same as talking about the max pressure for a cartridge. Don't mix apples and oranges.
Sounds to me like an example of a poor powder choice for the load. Hp38 is a great powder for low end to moderate loads. If you ant a higher velocity load then use a more suitable powder.

[Bwana]

OK, I get to be the stick in the mud since no one else is. What the heck? Have we not learned anything? There is no good reason to, "took aim on a spot high up in an old oak and let one fly." Those boolits go up and they come down. Need I remind you of the Amish girl killed because a good old boy cleared his black powder gun by firing it into the air? Stop doing this. Of course the response is, well I'm so good a shot that I don't miss. Really? Go sell crazy somewhere else, we're full up around here.

[M4bushy]

What? Pressures Is pressure. If the book says a charge is max with a lead bullet then adding a gas check doesn't increase the max charge.
The gas check may increase the pressure a bullet can handle without leading but that is not the same as talking about the max pressure for a cartridge. Don't mix apples and oranges.
Sounds to me like an example of a poor powder choice for the load. Hp38 is a great powder for low end to moderate loads. If you ant a higher velocity load then use a more suitable powder.

The max load for a pb boolit isn't near the max pressure for said cartridge. It it based on velocity due to the lead melting/eroding. If you look at the same weight jacketed bulet the powder charge is higher. That is the whole reason to gas check a bullet to get higher than plain base velocities .weather the op's load is more than a g/c boolit can handle, I don't know without developing it myself.

[excess650]

I'm a little late in chiming in here, but here goes....Charlie Dell and Wayne Swartz wrote a book about schuetzen rifles. One of the topics mentioned was fillers, wads, and chamber ringing. As I recall, Charlie was able to ring chambers simply by firing vertically. Too, as I recall, this phenomenon happens when using low density charges, and not necessarily high pressure loads. As related to the low density charges often used in older schuetzen rifles, the point was made to NOT put an over powder wad directly on the powder, but ringing had been accomplished without a wad, and firing vertically.

The OP here may have experienced the same.

[PacMan]

The only reason i posted what had happen was to hopefully keep someone out of trouble. A lot of replys have sugested diffrent things one being that HP-38 should not be used in max.loads.That may well be true and if so maybe i have helped someone keep out of trouble. Now all we got to do is get Hogdon to state so or take it off their load charts.

I can take the load and point it down and shoot it without one over pressure sign but pointed up it becomes a completely diffrent animal is the point i was trying to make.

I may be the only person that uses a faster powder working up max loads but i doubt it very much. Wonder how many other powders would give the same results in the same situation.

Bwana- all i can say is (better keep my mouth shut)

Take it all for what ever you think it may be worth.
Dwight

[btroj]

The max load for a pb boolit isn't near the max pressure for said cartridge. It it based on velocity due to the lead melting/eroding. If you look at the same weight jacketed bulet the powder charge is higher. That is the whole reason to gas check a bullet to get higher than plain base velocities .weather the op's load is more than a g/c boolit can handle, I don't know without developing it myself.

In this particular case that is true.
What I am getting at is a generalization that max loads for a gas check bullet are higher than that for a plain base bullet. Load up a 359429 Lyman bullet with a max load of 2400 in a 357 magnum. Place a plain base checking it. Same powder charge is still max as it is the pressure that determines max, not the bullet.

In the exact load data listed Hodgdons does lost a higher pressure load for a jacketed bullet than for a cast one. This is NOT always the case. I can actually think of many cases where cast bullet data is listed at max pressure for the cartridge.

Making a generalized statement like this is potentially dangerous. It is pressure that determines a max charge, not a bullet or gas check. The gas check may increase the max load you can use with good accuracy or no leading but it doesn't have much to do with the actual "max load".

[M4bushy]

In this particular case that is true.
What I am getting at is a generalization that max loads for a gas check bullet are higher than that for a plain base bullet. Load up a 359429 Lyman bullet with a max load of 2400 in a 357 magnum. Place a plain base checking it. Same powder charge is still max as it is the pressure that determines max, not the bullet.

In the exact load data listed Hodgdons does lost a higher pressure load for a jacketed bullet than for a cast one. This is NOT always the case. I can actually think of many cases where cast bullet data is listed at max pressure for the cartridge.

Making a generalized statement like this is potentially dangerous. It is pressure that determines a max charge, not a bullet or gas check. The gas check may increase the max load you can use with good accuracy or no leading but it doesn't have much to do with the actual "max load".

Yes, re-worded exactly what I said. It wasn't a broad cover every load known to man statement, it was about this 357 mag load!

Ron

[Rocky Raab]

Dwight, you have achieved your goals.

I think you've conclusively shown that there is position sensitivity in THIS load; you've shown that there are probably better powder choices for near-top loads; finally, you've shown that posting such experiences is indeed a great teaching tool. You've also shown a lot of courage by doing so.