1899 303 Savage help

[frnkeore]

I took my 1899 out for the first time today with 2 loads to sight it in and shoot some groups. Flip up tang sight and post w/bead front. The loads were as follows,

150 gr flat base spitzers (m2) .3075 dia.
34.0 gr 3031, F210 primers, WW brass
Loaded as long as I could @ 2.6

311413 U sized .308 w/GC
29.5 gr 3031, F210 primers, WW cases
Loaded to 2.6 OAL

The rifle has a octagon barrel and the groove diameter is VERY small at .306. I've heard they could run big but never heard of a .306 groove!!

I got sighten with just a few shots at 25 & 50. I took it out to 100 yards and fired 3 shot groups.

The group ran 6 - 8" vertical, first 3 shots were 6" by 1/8" wide, second 3 were 6.5 by 1/2".

I cleaned the barrel and tried my cast loads, they ran about 7" by 1 1/2 wide. I then went back to jacketed and fired my last 4 rounds and they went about 8" by 2" with the 2 highest shots within 1" of each other.

I forgot to take my spoting scope with me so, I can't tell you the order of the shots but, ALL groups went high with very little horizonal.

Any sugestions on what is happening? I plan to take it out next time and shoot w/o the forearm then put it back on to see if that effects it. I've never owned a 1899 or 99 before so, I have no experiance with them. I've read many times that they are very accurate rifles though and waited a long time to fine a 1899, 303 or 30/30 with a octagon barrel.

Frank

[TXGunNut]

In my experience a vertical group at the upper end of the powder charge indicates a need to back off the powder or in some cases the crimp is inconsistent. Could also indicate forend pressure but you're already supecting that.

[Bret4207]

Okay, I have a similar rifle. 26" barrel? Where were you supporting the front of the gun? That long hunk of steel hanging out there can act as a lever. Make certain you are using the same spot each time and try different areas, There will be a sweet spot someplace. Question 2- Is there any play in the butt stock at all? It's 100 years old! Wood compresses over time and if things aren't up to snuff you'll get what you speak of. #3- Is that sight solid? Check it. #4- Is this a take down? If it is there is likely play in the joint.

What are you using for brass? If you are using new brass and are "fireforming" sometimes you'll get a round or 3 that seems to be a little lower powered than the others.

.306 groove diameter? From what I've read it's entirely possible. Art Savage was the type to try the new and untested. I think Newton was big on tight barrels and he and Savage seem to have been buds.

Considering you have the same issue with jacketed and cast I'd look for a mechanical issue.

[gnoahhh]

In all the years I've been having a love affair with Savage lever guns, I never heard of such a problem. Erratic grouping caused by inconsistent forearm pressure/rest location- yes, but never in the way you describe. Definitely try it again using Bret's advice. It rings true.

My favorite hunting load in my 1899 .303's is 28.0 gr. 3031 under any good 180-190 grain lead bullet. It seems to me to be a sweet spot for the .303. Target/practice favorite load is 14 gr. SR-4759/180 grain bullet. They are universally accurate in all my .303 savages, even the takedowns.

Just had a thought. Does the fore arm bear firmly against the front of the receiver? It should just barely kiss it, or not quite touch. Excess pressure there can sometimes make these guns do squirrely things, but alas, not necessarily.

[frnkeore]

Bret,
Yes, It's the 26" octagon barrel (I believe all octagons are 26") It's not a take down, The butt stock is nice and tight (it will be replace with in the next year though, it has a fair size chip on the toe). I just bout the tang sight for it and installed so, I know that it's tight. I bagged it near the center of the forearm each time. The brass is once fired,neck sized ( I have no new brass :( ) and I only have 21 cases of WW Super Speed.

I was just informed while writing this that I had a lot of muzzle jump that I hadn't noticed while firing the shots. Maybe that is it!

I'll next try gnoahhh's 14 gr load next time out, w/the forearm and then take it off at the range if it's still vertical.

gnoahhh, what bullet are you using with your cast loads, I have the RCBS 180 FN that I will try.

Thank you all,

Frank

[gnoahhh]

Old NEI 308180 RN. Several work really well for me (311241 PB, 311466, 311291, and a 190gr. custom FN design from Saeco) but the old NEI is my favorite.

[bandit7.5]

Are you using 303 brass or resized 3030 brass.

[frnkeore]

Just regular 303 Savage brass, that's why I only have 21 cases. They are very hard to come by.

Frank

[Boerrancher]

Bret is correct about the placement of the support under the fore end. I have been shooting Mod 95 and 99 savages for over thirty years. I love them they are my favorite lever gun, and you will rarely get one to shoot good unless you put the front support directly under the receiver of the rifle. It is awkward at best to shoot this way with all that weight out front, but you have got to get away from any upward pressure on the barrel, or it will string them up and down. Some rifles are worse than others. Also make sure there is plenty of clearance between the forestock and receiver. The forestock should not touch the receiver anywhere only look like it is touching it. If you remove the forestock and shoot it, do not let the barrel remotely touch the sand bags. Keep them under the receiver and see how it shoots. Put the forestock back on and try it again with the bags under the receiver if it strings them it is the forestock touching somewhere. If it doesn't then it was just the placement of the sand bags.

If it strings them with the forestock off and the barrel not touching anything. You need to find out the order and direction of the string. I can't make anymore suggestions until I know that. I sure hope this helps you out as those are really neat guns. I would love to have one myself. I past one up in a 30-30 back about 20 years ago for $100, and I had the money in my pocket. I have been kicking myself in the butt every since.

Best wishes,

Joe

[Bret4207]

The RCBS 30-180FN is THE 303 boolit as far as I'm concerned. You can easily duplicate factory ballistics with it.

FYI- You can make 303 Sav brass from 220 Swift. The rim is slightly smaller, but it works. 307 Winchester ammo is also supposed to work, but that seems rarer than 303!

I have seen octagon and half octagon carbine length.

[shotman]

Dont take this the wrong way . If your getting about same string with cast and jacket I bet its the sight picture. That tang peep Is very close to your eye . Does it have the rear sight on the barrel? try that one .
I have a peep on a 25-35 99 and I cant do any good with it.

[gnoahhh]

Ok, I'll bite. How would a tang sight mounted close to the eye be a detrimental sight picture? It provides a helluva longer sight radius than when using the barrel mounted open sights. Sighting errors are magnified as the sight radius decreases, no?

[frnkeore]

I don't really think it's my sight picture. I've been shooting aperiture sights in single shot competion for more than 25 years. The aperiture is fairly large when compaired to a target size aperiture that I would use if it were threaded so it could be used with a merit disk but, I was careful in getting a sight picture. Plus, the windage never varied on any shots.

Regarding cases, I've read that you can also machine a ring to go on a 30/30 case to bring them up to 303 head size. I may do that if I can't fine more WW cases. I don't want to mix cases and if I wasn't so cheap, I'd buy new Privi's ay Graf's. I'm a machinist so the ring wouldn't be beyond what I can do but, it's time consuming (read cheap & lazy :) ).

It's snowing here now so, it will be at least a few days before trying again.

Frank

[Bret4207]

Geeze Frank, for the price of the 30-30 brass and the rings and the work you can buy that bag of Swift brass, run them through the die, anneal and trim. Seems like a lot less work to me. Plus, no one is going to try and jam a case marked 220 Swift in a 30-30.

[gnoahhh]

Not to mention PRVI brass is available for the .303. I bought a bunch from Graf's recently. Good stuff. $50 for a bag of 100.

[Bret4207]

Really? I was unaware of that. Is it made correctly? Dimension-wise I mean?

[gnoahhh]

Good stuff. I can't tell the difference between it and old R-P or W-W brass. Dimensionally it's dead-nutz. This is the first I've tried it, haven't fired any of it yet. Fellow Savage shooters report they get as good, if not better, case life as with American brass. I just double checked and Graf's has it in stock. Admittedly, they seem to run in spurts as to when they have it, like with a lot of the odd ball brass they sell. $50/100 is right in line with the per 50/bag cost of domestic brass for standard calibers.

Guys were making .303 brass out of different stuff like .220 Swifts and .30/40 Krags back when there wasn't any available commercially. While they work, they are a pain to make and not quite right dimensionally hence leading to not so great case life. As long as demand is high enough for the PRVI brass I'll bet Graf's (and undoubtedly others, I haven't looked) will make an effort to keep it in stock.

About using .30/30 brass. I think it's a waste of good .30/30 brass. It's so much smaller in diameter than the .303 savage that the brass bulges like crazy- if you can get it to go off. As an experiment I purposely tried to fire a .30/30 cartridge (squib load) in a .303 to see just what would happen. It wouldn't even fire. I didn't keep trying as I was making myself nervous. I have seen pics of other's attempts though, and noted the huge bulges. It just seems a fool's errand to me.

[blindeye]

My '99 G 26" .300 and '99 H 20" 30/30 both shot better grasping the forearm and resting my wrist instead of resting the forearm or frame upon the bag. I don't know why, maybe the light rifles needed a little recoil dampening. Of course I might have poor bench technique.... but haven't had the same experience with heavier bolt actions or single shots. Worth a try for a few shots maybe.

[stocker]

blindeyes advice to hold the fore end in your hand and rest the back of your hand on the rest is good advice. Try it. These rifles have lots of drop to the heel of the stock and can be quite sensitive to vertical stringing from recoil particularly if cheek pressure on the stock is not consistent.

[frnkeore]

Good advise, I'll try that, too.

Frank

[Big Dave]

A little off topic but does anyone know if 99 Savage take down barrels are interchangeble within a case group. 30 30, 32 special 32 40.
A friend with a 30 30 takedown asked me and I have no idea so thought I would inquire here.

thanks for any input.

[shooter93]

There have been several large runs of correct 303 Savage brass run lately. Privi, Norma and Huntingtons.

[Bret4207]

A little off topic but does anyone know if 99 Savage take down barrels are interchangeble within a case group. 30 30, 32 special 32 40.
A friend with a 30 30 takedown asked me and I have no idea so thought I would inquire here.

thanks for any input.

In general terms as far as I know, yes. Old catalogs offer barrel sets. My only concern would be proper headspacing. A bit of fiddling may be required.

[gnoahhh]

Prior to 1920 the TD threads were interrupted, which is to say one slides the barrel in the whole way until it bottoms out, and then twists it 1/4 turn to tighten it. After 1920 the TD threads were full, which is to say they have to be turned around and around until they get tight, just like a regular screw. All Savage 1899/99 Takedown threads were the same dimension, meaning you can put a full thread one in an interrupted thread receiver and vice versa. Warning: make doubly darn sure the action is open all the way before attempting to un-screw or screw in a barrel. The extractor will be in the way if not. Lots of guys think their barrels won't unscrew when all it is is that the extractor is locking it in place.

Note: TD threads are exactly the same as non-TD threads on all Savage 99's with serial numbers pre-1 million. (And even a few thereafter. The non-TD barrels are simply torqued up tighter at the factory.) The barrel address of Westfield (versus Utica or Chicopee Falls) is another giveaway. The difference between the two are the older ones used a square Acme thread, the later ones a vee-thread.

Good advice re: checking headspace after screwing in a barrel not original to the gun. They were hand fitted before leaving the factory. In all honesty I have found them to all be pretty darn close though in real life.

[Bret4207]

Huh! Learn something new everyday. I don't think I've ever seen a non-interrupted thread on a 99 TD. Of course I've only seen maybe 15-20. Interesting!

[gnoahhh]

The change order went out in 1920 Bret, but like all things Savage, never say never. Evidently they had a ton of interrupted thread versions on hand that they continued to use up from time to time during the 20's. They also turn up quite often mounted on solid frame guns in the 20's- merely torqued up tight instead of left hand turn-loose. The TD officially came to an end in 1940, but started petering out long before then.

I think the TD was most popular during the train travel era. The broken down rifle was handier to transport and not conspicuous on public transport. When train travel waned, and more people had their own wheels, the popularity of TD's started to slide.

They're still my favorite Savage though.

[Big Dave]

Thanks to all of you for the info. I will pass it along.