.45-70 Duplex Loading

[CollinLeon]

I was thinking about taking advantage of some of the cheaper pulldown powders for my .45-70 Marlin 1895GS and was wondering about how some of ya'll do your duplex loads.

If you are using a progressive press, do you have two powder positions -- one for the kicker charge and another one for the main slower powder charge?

My progressive is only 4 positions and I have all of them in use, so I think that is not an option...

Of course, with a 7-position turret press like the Redding T-7, I can see how you could possible have them all on a single turret...

Or do you just load the cartridge into the press multiple times with different dies / tools in the toolhead?

[Jim]

Welcome to the forum, Collin!

It would probably help us if you could tell us what bullet or boolit you're planning on shooting and what powders you intend to duplex.

Just outa' curiosity, why do you wanna load duplex charges?

[9.3X62AL]

Welcome to the board, Collin!

All of my larger rifle calibers get loaded on a single-stage system. I have a Ponsness-Warren P-200 for the handgun and small rifle calibers, and it has 10 stations--so conceivably I could take on the challenge with handgun calibers and duplex loadings. I don't see a way to do it without 2 powder measures and have the process be fully "progressive", though.

My method for single stage is to have sized--expanded and primed--cases at the ready. In this instance, it's 45-70, and they are in a coffee can. I pour my bottom charge into the cases using one of the Lee Spoons that corresponds to 6.0 grains of IMR-4198, then place them in a loading block. That done, I next pour the main charge (48.0 grains of WC-860) from the powder measure fixed in a bench stand. Next step is to seat boolits, usually Lee 405 grainers. This load equals 1873-level ballistics, and is 1.25"-1.5" at 100 yards pretty reliably.

P-W also makes a 5-station "semi-progressive) in a size that can accomodate up to 375 H&H-length cartridges. It has 5 stations. These P-W tools are more a modified turret arrangement than a pure progressive system, and unlike a lot of progressives they allow interruption of the loading cycle and removal of the case at any point of the process. I would find it easy to adapt duplex loading to such a system.

[CollinLeon]

Welcome to the forum, Collin!

It would probably help us if you could tell us what bullet or boolit you're planning on shooting and what powders you intend to duplex.

Just outa' curiosity, why do you wanna load duplex charges?

Currently the only mold I have for the .45-70 is the 405 gr one from Lee.

I was thinking of using Alliant Promo (Red Dot equivalent) for the kicker since it is the powder that I have the most of right now. For the main charge, I was thinking of using WC867 or WC872.

I'm also going to be buying some 8lb containers of WC844 for .223 and WC846 for .308...

The WC867 and WC872 is pretty cheap and I was thinking that I could possibly create a duplex load with one of them as the main powder for a .45-70 load.

As for the "why", well, I'm an engineer and I like to experiment... If I didn't like to experiment, I would just buy commercial ammo... Plus, if I can save a couple of bucks in the process, that's even better...

[Jim]

Load responsibly and shoot safely.

[Tatume]

A Dillon 450/550 can be used as a semi-progressive reloading press. My practice is to size and bell cases and remove them as they come from the belling station. Then I prime and charge the cases in batches of 50, and feed them through the seat and crimp stations. Personally, I would not use a fully-progressive procedure with duplex loads, even though I do have the stations to do it on my Dillon XL-650.

Recently I shot my most accurate load with commercial powder against my duplex load with WC860 over AA5744. I was delighted that the mil-surp powder out-shot the commercial load.

[CollinLeon]

A Dillon 450/550 can be used as a semi-progressive reloading press. My practice is to size and bell cases and remove them as they come from the belling station. Then I prime and charge the cases in batches of 50, and feed them through the seat and crimp stations. Personally, I would not use a fully-progressive procedure with duplex loads, even though I do have the stations to do it on my Dillon XL-650.

Do you think that there would be enough room on the 650 that you could put two powder measures on it in adjacent positions and they not interfere with each other?



Recently I shot my most accurate load with commercial powder against my duplex load with WC860 over AA5744. I was delighted that the mil-surp powder out-shot the commercial load.

What caliber were you reloading for?

[Tatume]

Do you think that there would be enough room on the 650 that you could put two powder measures on it in adjacent positions and they not interfere with each other?



What caliber were you reloading for?

I'm loading the 45-70. Yes, I believe so. The second measure might have to be manually operated, because of possible interference. If you are serious about setting up such an arrangement I can go out to my shop and make some measurements. It might be the weekend before I have time, as I am very busy during the work week.

That said, I do not recommend automatic operation when loading high performance loads. I use the XL 650 for mild loadings, primarily 45 ACP and 45 Colt. The semi-progressive operation of the Dillon 450 (I now have two of them, the other for 454 Casull) gives me greater control, and the ability to inspect charges before bullets are seated. It's still way faster than loading on a single stage press.

Take care, Tom

[CollinLeon]

I'm loading the 45-70. Yes, I believe so. The second measure might have to be manually operated, because of possible interference. If you are serious about setting up such an arrangement I can go out to my shop and make some measurements. It might be the weekend before I have time, as I am very busy during the work week.


Since I don't have a 650 nor do I see buying one in the near future, it's more of just a curiosity type of question, so don't make any special effort on my part. I was just curious if you had ever tried it.

With the 450, I'm not sure if there is enough room and even if there was, you would probably have to press the powder measure from the back side of the unit.

[Longwood]

Since I don't have a 650 nor do I see buying one in the near future, it's more of just a curiosity type of question, so don't make any special effort on my part. I was just curious if you had ever tried it.

With the 450, I'm not sure if there is enough room and even if there was, you would probably have to press the powder measure from the back side of the unit.

A thought without having a 450 handy .
Why not size and de-prime, clean brass, re-prime by hand, then temporarily add a Little Dandy to the Dillon.

[RevGeo]

The only duplex load I've used for the 45-70 was 3 grains of Bullseye followed by a case-full of FF black powder. Seemed to make for a little better ignition, but the accuracy was about the same. No pressure problems in an original '73 Springfield.
BTW, that was with an Ideal #457124 405gr.

George

[9.3X62AL]

Let me give a re-cap of the process I went through to arrive at the duplex "findings" I came up with in 45-70.

I began using a 100% density charge of WC-860 under the Lee 405 grain boolit--55.0 grains. Fed 215 primers were used initially, and that primer remained/remains in use throughout and to this day.

Results weren't impressive--velocity ran 950-975 FPS, and LOTS of powder trash remained in the bore after firing. After fired-case extraction, this debris interfered with subsequent cartridge chambering.

Next step was to try using 3.0 grains of IMR-4198 under a charge of 52.0 grains of WC-860. Velocity increased to 1100 FPS, accuracy was GOOD, and bore trash was reduced--but still present.

"Success" arrived by using 6.0 grains of 4198 under 48.0 grains of WC-860. 1873-level velocity (1300 FPS), no bore debris, and 1.5 MOA at 100 yards (or better).

[NSP64]

Welcome CollinLeon.

Why dont you build a 2 into 1 trough setup.
Make a stand to hold both powder measures , feed them into the trough manually.
The trough feeds into the 1 die station.
Problem solved.

[mroliver77]

These days the .50 powders are not that cheap. With the large amount used are you coming out ahead? Now if it is for knowledge's sake then price is not that big of a deal.

I knew 10 years ago and more that the cheap surplus powder days were going to end soon. I preached that we should all buy until it hurt. I wish I would have taken my advice more to heart!
J

[9.3X62AL]

J--

I haven't "run the numbers" on the question of .50 BMG powders in the 45-70 vs. standard loads of mainstream powders to derive a substantive answer. I do like how the duplex loads shoot, and as long as I don't "run out of sighting" the Ruger #1 can keep ringing metal capably to 300 yards. I use an NECG aperture rear sight that is retained in the rear scope ring dovetail, and there is enough adjustment to carry the 1873-level loads to 300 yards. I view the rifle as a hunting gun, so it has more than enough sight for humane shooting of game.

If I had to venture an educated guess, the duplex loadings as I assemble them likely don't save a lot of money over other mainstream smokeless loads giving 1873 velocities. If I run the #1 at its full capacity, there is a considerable powder cost savings--and no chiropractor visits, either.

[bfuller14]

Tell me if this is close!
For the 45/70 with a 405gr. boolit
8 pounds surplus=.03 per round
IMR 4198 =.01 per round
Total per round
(for duplex load)=.04

IMR 4198 per round= .12

[mroliver77]

I just seen that Wideners has the powder for $39 per 8lb jug. Buy 6 and they pay the hazmat. Like bfuller posted, $.03 per shot for the .50 powder. This is not bad at all! I therefor stand corrected.
J

[bfuller14]

I shoot the duplex load in 45/70 BFR
It is really fun too shoot and very accurate.
I used Unique over the primer with WC-860 as main powder
and a 405gr. boolit.

[CollinLeon]

Does anyone have a duplex load that they would like to share comes a bit closer to pushing the limits on the Marlin 1895 leverguns?

[bfuller14]

Send a PM to redneckdan. He has very good knowledge
on duplex loads.

Regards,
Barry

[redneckdan]

Collin shot my a PM and asked me to drop by. Been a busy winter and haven't been here much the last 3 months or so...any way.....



I bought 6 jugs of WC860 to use in a 30-284. Never did much with it and ended up trying it in a H&H buffalo classic in 45-70. Pretty much a recap of Deputy Al's experience. My current 45-70 is a ruger #3 and I still use the duplex loads.

I also used Al's work up method. However, I use Promo as the kicker and standard rifle primers. I settled on 5gr of Promo and 55gr of WC 860 under a 350gr paper patched bullet. This is with fire formed brass. With full length sized brass I drop the main charge 3.0gr. I try to get 1/8" powder compression when seating the bullet. Seems to help the powder burn cleanly. I get no kernels left behind. This loads kicks those puppies out there and is solidly in modern lever gun pressure territory. Don't shoot these in trap door class guns. You won't get 'ultimate' performance from WC 860, straight 3031 would be a better choice. But do you really need more than 350grs at mid 1500s for anything in the lower 48?

As for equipment, I use two powder measures and a RCBS rock chucker. The formed cases are partial neck sized and then primed and cases belled. First goes the Promo in a Lee Perfect measure then the WC860 in a RCBs Uniflow. Start a bullet and then seat in Lee Dies. I use a LEE FCD to remove the case belling but not crimp.

[afish4570]

22 yrs. or so ago the 860 and 872 powders were $16/8 #.....before the haz. mat came into effect. Needless to say I used some in my Ruger #3 but after shooting less than 100 rds. The load was 4 grs. Unique and 50 ish grs. (forgot exact #). The problem was the unburned kernels scratched the barrel enough to notice it.......So I shot the rest in a MK4 Enfield . The Enfield barrels are rough enough so that they really don't show any worse for the wear. Now I use 16 gr. of 2400 and get the same results without danger of wrecking a barrel....Just an ole guy's learning expierences.....afish4570