"Expanding" Boolits for Deer Hunting in Minnesota

[AKtinman]

I hope to hunt deer in Minnesota this fall & was looking in the Hunting and Trapping Regulations book for information.

In the southern part of the state, shotguns and handguns are allowed. Handguns require the use of "expanding bullets". No more detail than that.

Would a solid lead boolit be OK, or would a HP be required?

Thanks for your help!

[Reload3006]

That would be open to the interpretation of the game warden that checked you. If you had hollow points he would have no debate. But we all know that a soft Pb bullet is going to mushroom. The question would be does the conservation agent know that?
Maybe you would convince a judge in court that soft Pb mushrooms and there fore is an expanding boolit. But use the HP and you won't have to hassle with it ... My .02

[Roundnoser]

I hope to hunt deer in Minnesota this fall & was looking in the Hunting and Trapping Regulations book for information.

In the southern part of the state, shotguns and handguns are allowed. Handguns require the use of "expanding bullets". No more detail than that.

Would a solid lead boolit be OK, or would a HP be required?

Thanks for your help!

I think I can help you with this...Lead bullets are OK to use...they are expanding bullets. Also permitted would be jacketed soft point bullets and hollow point bullets.

In conservation enforcement circles, the "expanding bullets" regulation is aimed at preventing projectiles such as FMJ, jacketed solids, copper solids, etc. Non-expanding bullets are not legal because they will not kill as quickly and cleanly as an expanding bullet (generally).

Be Safe and good luck with your hunt!

[Crusty Deary Ol'Coot]

In this Ol'Coots opnion, forget the hollow point cast boolits, as first off, if your using a reasonable caliber with proper boolit design, you won't need them.

As said in the post above, a lead nose boolit will qualify as an expanding boolit, and providing you are using a boolit design with the proper wide flat nose (WFN) you simply do not need expansion.

Now the game people will not be able to run fast enough to observe the impact of your boolit on a critter, and providing your caliber is large enough in dia, I can assure you that the wound channel will equal or better a jacketed bullet wound channel from a Hunting quality bullet. Not talking a varmit boolit type of wound channel here!

Have been very impressed with the wound channel from my 45/70 at velocities in the 1600 - 1700fps range. AWESOME to say the least.

Keep em coming!

Crusty Deary Ol'Coot

[JonB_in_Glencoe]

I think I can help you with this...Lead bullets are OK to use...they are expanding bullets. Also permitted would be jacketed soft point bullets and hollow point bullets.

In conservation enforcement circles, the "expanding bullets" regulation is aimed at preventing projectiles such as FMJ, jacketed solids, copper solids, etc. Non-expanding bullets are not legal because they will not kill as quickly and cleanly as an expanding bullet (generally).

Be Safe and good luck with your hunt!

I would assume a MN Conservation Officer would know this...but if you think
a C.O. in your area doesn't know this, I'd consider carrying a sample of a recovered
boolit along with an original "as cast" to show him/her.
Jon

[GLynn41]

But if the the game warden wants to see the ammo- - the HP will certainly work for him. I agree with you on the LWN wound channels-- having killed deer with both cast HP and LWN -- HP will work and are not a problem -- especially since I have a Group buy MIhec mold which gives HP, Penta points and a LFNgc-- I guess it depends on who checks you and what they want to see- if like here you likely will never be check --since 1978 I have been checked once

[AKtinman]

Thanks for the replies!

My assumption (yeah, I know how to spell ***-U-ME :) ) is in line with what Roundnoser posted.

I have, at last count, 7 Mihec moulds, still new and unused. Sacrilege! Still waiting on the 452640 HP.

My opinion would be that both cast solid or HP would be considered "expanding", but my opinion may differ from the CO.

Last deer I killed with a handgun was in 1971 in south Texas with a Blackhawk .357 with 358156. Not the HP version.

I want to use a scoped handgun, so that means my 625-4 with Auto Rim loads, or buying a new 29/629 or a 625 in .45 Colt, as the 625-4 is my only S&W drilled and tapped for scope mount. Hey, any excuse to buy a new handgun!

I've hunted enough to not take the shot if things are not right. Older eyes don't help matters any, either.

Life has been pretty intense the last couple of years and I am now beginning to be able to breathe a bit. Looking forward to getting back into casting and shooting!

[AKtinman]

JonB in Glencoe had a good idea as well. Maybe I'll just call the DNR office in the local county and ask.

The 45 AR wouldn't be my first choice for deer, but I don't have a 44 with scope capability. In the AR, I would load the 270gr Ohaus GB, Mihec RCBS 270, or maybe the 250gr LBT WFN as I have those molds on hand. For the 44, I've got SSK 285gr, Mihec 429640 HP, Mihec 503 HP, LBT 432 250 LFN, and a few others.

I've got an Oehler 35, so will work up an appropriate load, whichever caliber / boolit combination I pick.

I have seen the 629 and 625 Hunter models and those seem just the ticket, but $1200 or so might be just a bit more than I want to spend. Lots of fun to dream, though.

Thanks for the input!

[btroj]

Missouri has a similar regulation and I use cast with no fear. The regs are intended to preclude the use of FMJ type bullets. I don't see how anyone could call a cast bullet non-expanding. Most will assume that a lead bullet must be soft and will mushroom like no tomorrow.

I would cast, load, and go hunt without a second thought.

[Roundnoser]

Guys,

I check hunters all the time. Lead bullets are "expanding", and are perfectly legal. If you are stopped and checked, just show the officer one of your loaded rounds. You'll be good-to-go.

FMJ's and similar jacketed solids that are designed NOT to exepand are illegal.

Enjoy your hunt!

[Larry Gibson]

HP cast bullets certainly are not needed for killing deer but consider the reason "expanding ammuntion" is required. The reason is that it kills better and quicker than FMJ type that does not expand. Regular cast bullets may not be FMJs but the law there says "expanding bullet" and not FMJ. If you go with a HP there will be no doubt as to it being an "expanding bullet" to the mostly non savey game wardens. I worked with lots of game officers for 18+ years and can tell you real quickly what they don't know about guns and ammunition. What you decide to use may be dependent on how much of your hunting time do you want to lose and do you want to spend additional time and expense in court trying to prove yourself innocent?

I've been using HP'd cast bullets for 40+ years to kill deer with along side non HP cast bullets cast hard for no expansion and soft for expansion. The HPs kill quicker with heat/lung shots simple because they do more internal damage and transmit more "energy" to the deer. Lot less tracking that way. I've come to using soft cast HPs exclusively for hunting deer, elk, pigs, etc. With a proper alloy and design the bullet will give all the penetration required (most often through and through).

There are numerous very good handgun cartridge HP bullet moulds available. The Forster HP tool can also be used to quickly HP the loaded cast bullets from non HP moulds. I also suggest a GC'd bullet so the alloy can be very soft and malleable for proper expansion.

What cartridge are you going to use or are considering?

Larry Gibson

[Roundnoser]

Heres the info from Minn. DNR website (link is at the bottom of my post):

Legal Big Game Cartridges

■It is at least .220 caliber and has center fire ignition;
■It is loaded only with single projectile ammunition;
■The projectile used has a soft point or is an expanding bullet type;*
■The muzzleloader (long gun or handgun) used cannot be loaded at the breech (muzzleloading revolvers are not legal for taking big game);
■The smooth-bore muzzleloader used is at least .45 caliber and
■The rifled muzzleloader used is at least .40 caliber;
■Muzzleloaders with scopes are legal during the regular firearms deer seasons, but are not allowed during the muzzleloader season except by special permit for hunters with a medically certified visual impairment.
* Note: Hunters are reminded to select bullets that are suitable for taking big game. Most major manufacturers offer either bonded or all-copper bullets that are appropriate for taking big game. Hunters are advised to select a proper bullet design and weight that is suitable for humanely taking big game.

http://www.dnr.state.mn.us/regulations/hunting/legalcartridges.html

[Crusty Deary Ol'Coot]

Larry, You clearly have lots more experience then I do in this department.

However, from my limited experience with the 45/70, and WFN boolits, I surely don't want any more of a wound channel then I am already seeing.

Am currently shooting a 465gr WFN booit with fantastic results. Velocity 1600 - 1700fps.

BUT, for the 2010 season I was using a 355gr LBT/WFN at 2290fps and I felt the wound channel was over the top.

I had read about eating up to the boolit hole with cast boolits, and yes I guess I could have done that on that deer.

HOWEVER, I was very surprised to see the size of the wound channel!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Way larger then anything I expected.

I have only 4 cast boolit eat'in type critters harvested to date, 3 deer and one elk, but would want nothing beyond what I am seeing in terms of wound channel or effectiveness.

Because of the WFN, the wound channel begins MUCH sooner, in fact the hole where the boolit impacts the critter is MUCH larger then with a "J" bullet, and the wound channel just goes and goes and keep on going.

Do I want the expansion of a soft nose cast or H.P. cast boolit? No way! Already have more then enough wound channel.

OK, game people are many times like cops, in that they oft times know little to almost nothing about the realities of firearms and/or the effectiveness of different boolit types/designs beyond what some instructor has told them during class time.

Therefore, I guess I'd buy into the thought of making personal contact with the local game officers, and higher up the ladder if possible, and while keeping your mouth shut, simply ask if your cast lead meets the state's requirements.

To introduce anything into the conversation about alloy, hard cast, soft cast, soft nosed cast, water quenched, Wide flat nose etc. etc. etc. will just provide info beyond most peoples ability to understand.

You simply want to know if your "cast LEAD bullet" meets requrements. And everybody knowing how soft "LEAD" is, of course it will.

Keep em coming!

Crusty Deary Ol'Coot

[pmer]

There used to be something that said the 45 ACP was not legal while the 10 MM was legal. In recent years they made the .223 legal for big game in Minnesota.

I would like to think lead SWC designs are good since they state "proper weight and design" in their description of Legal Cartridge. It's easy to find industry literature that describes SWC, WFNs as hunting projectiles.

So to me it would be a reach for game officer to call you out for using :cbpour: on game.

[9.3X62AL]

Have a look at the "stickied" thread describing the "BruceB Softpoint Casting Method".

I use BruceB softpoints in the California zones that allow the use of lead boolits. My testing in a couple calibers has shown no trajectory behavior differences between homogenous-alloy boolits and the two-alloy boolits at 100-300 yards. No discernable accuracy difference, either. 30-06 will be my next test-bed, likely with #311284 or the Lee 311-200. 45-70 and 9.3 x 62 are largely dialed in.

For purposes of demonstration to conservation officers, these bullets show a metallic shading differential between the shank and the softer point. If a question persists, just gouge the tip with a thumbnail--that should answer.

[Larry Gibson]

Crusty Deary Ol'Coot

Larry, You clearly have lots more experience then I do in this department.

However, from my limited experience with the 45/70, and WFN boolits, I surely don't want any more of a wound channel then I am already seeing.

Am currently shooting a 465gr WFN booit with fantastic results. Velocity 1600 - 1700fps.

BUT, for the 2010 season I was using a 355gr LBT/WFN at 2290fps and I felt the wound channel was over the top.

Your experience with the larger 45 caliber bullets at those velocities is typical. I also have shot deer, elk and pigs with the 45-70 from TD velocities of 1200 fps up to 2300 fps out of my Siamese Mauser. I've used WFNs, FNs, RNs and HP'd cast bullets. Above 1500 fps there is really no need for the HP as the wounds are massive as you say. I'm not disagreeing with you at all.

Point is the OP is talking about handguns. Unless he is using one of the real mondo magnums he will be shooting a lot less bullet at a lot less velocity that either you or I are using in out 45-70s. There is a big difference in impact at 1100 - 1400 fps from a 240 - 300 gr bullet from a .44 Magnum or .45 Colt, even with a WFN or an HP, than from a 465 gr bullet at 1600 - 1700 fps. Now if the OP is using .357 Mag or .41 Magnum the bullet weight drops to 150 - 220 gr with standard weight bullets so the impact is even less with those. Using an expanding bullet or a HP'd bullet in those cartridges at those velocities increases the terminal affect without creating any where near the wound damage your 45-70 does. The prperly chosen expanding bullets, whether SP of HP, will also make a larger wound channnel through game than a WFN thus killing quicker.

I had read about eating up to the boolit hole with cast boolits, and yes I guess I could have done that on that deer.

HOWEVER, I was very surprised to see the size of the wound channel!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Way larger then anything I expected.

Really surprised me too the first deer I shot with a 457483 at 1700 fps!

I have only 4 cast boolit eat'in type critters harvested to date, 3 deer and one elk, but would want nothing beyond what I am seeing in terms of wound channel or effectiveness.

Again, no dissagreement from me except to note the difference between your rifles effect at higher velcocity than what a handgun bullets efeect will be with a smaller, lighter weight bullet at less velocity.

Because of the WFN, the wound channel begins MUCH sooner, in fact the hole where the boolit impacts the critter is MUCH larger then with a "J" bullet, and the wound channel just goes and goes and keep on going.

A good HP of proper alloy will begin opening up very quickly and will make a larger expanding wound channel through the game. They also will, with a proper ally and HP design,"just goes and goes and keep on going".

Do I want the expansion of a soft nose cast or H.P. cast boolit? No way! Already have more then enough wound channel.

OK, game people are many times like cops, in that they oft times know little to almost nothing about the realities of firearms and/or the effectiveness of different boolit types/designs beyond what some instructor has told them during class time.

Therefore, I guess I'd buy into the thought of making personal contact with the local game officers, and higher up the ladder if possible, and while keeping your mouth shut, simply ask if your cast lead meets the state's requirements.

To introduce anything into the conversation about alloy, hard cast, soft cast, soft nosed cast, water quenched, Wide flat nose etc. etc. etc. will just provide info beyond most peoples ability to understand.

The problem is if they don't understand it they will say "no". They are not going to authorize anything they know whether it's legal or not.

You simply want to know if your "cast LEAD bullet" meets requrements. And everybody knowing how soft "LEAD" is, of course it will.

May get you by with the person you talk with in the office but odds are that's not who you will run into in the field. I was told many times in the field "wel I was told by the guy at the office it was ok.". If I thought it was a violation the citation was issued. I could care less what someone at the office said if I thought it contradicted what the law/regulation said. LEOs in the field will make the call based on what they think the law/reg says.

Larry

Keep em coming!

Crusty Deary Ol'Coot[/QUOTE]

[TXGunNut]

I certainly agree that the statute is poorly written by folks that know little about hunting firearms, especially the ones we like. I would definitely seek clarification.
The logic I would use in the field is that a "soft point" jacketed bullet is defined by exposed lead. You can't get any more exposed than all lead! As pointed out above a discussion of alloys is problematic, just call it lead and leave it at that. Even the hardest lead boolit expands somewhat on impact. If you are cited simply take a bullet to court, drop it point-first on a hard surface from about 6' and present it as evidence. Then explain that it will be going 800 fps (or whatever you expect your terminal velocity to be) when it hits a game animal. Could even convert it to mph for ease of understanding. That and the above definition of a soft point bullet should get your point across.

[Reload3006]

Ya all know the funny thing about this whole conversation is we are all arguing sort of saying the same thing. Plane ole Lead boolits expand I know that you know that just about every person on this site knows that Most LEOs will know that. If I had an inkling that I may have an issue (I dont live far from a conservation office) I would take a boolit in and ask, and ask for a written statement that this boolit is an expanding boolit. However to just avoid all the hassle if I had a mold where I had a choice to hollow point or not I would be using a hollow point so no citation.
Right or wrong once the citation is written you are the looser. Its going to cost you court costs and a days work to prove your point. If you could have made some HPs and avoided the whole issue? Was your principle worth it? I guess we all stand or die on our beliefs.

[AKtinman]

The DNR regs are rather vague. Page 58 of the 2011 Hunting and Trapping Regulations Handbook has the same paragraph as the DNR website posted by Roundnoser. BUT, the heading states “LEGAL FIREARMS (INCLUDES HANDGUNS) FOR BIG GAME” They stated it in all caps, so I’m not “yelling” at anyone ;)

Page 61 is devoted to the concerns of lead in venison.

The southern area of the state allows use of shotguns and handguns on deer. No rifles, as I read the regs.

I’m thinking a HP boolit will meet DNR requirements for “expanding” bullets.

As to calibers I intend to use... I have a 5” 625-4 which is drilled and tapped for scope. My 29-2, 24-3, and 25-7 are not, and I won’t modify them. I would prefer to not use open sights, so that leaves the 625 in .45 ACP/AR. Not my first choice of a deer cartridge. Will it do the job? I am sure it will. BUT, given the choice, I would rather have a 250 grainer at 1100 fps vs the same boolit at 900 fps. Inside 50 yards, probably not much difference.

Right now the 625 will get the nod as I have it and am confident in it. I think I will keep an eye open for a 29/629 set up for scope. Always fun to get another gun.

Thanks to all for your replies.

[Roundnoser]

I have been asked many times for clarification on many different fishing / hunting laws and regulations. Unlike many officers described here as not knowing very much, I do. When an angler or hunter wants some kind of assurance, I provide my business card as a courtesy. If he is stopped by another officer, I tell him to explain the circumstance to the officer and provide him/her with my card, and ask that they call me. This way, there is no misunderstanding. I don't do this in all situations. Just the ones where the sportsman really wants some piece of mind,and is genuinely concerned about doing the right thing. (to the contrary, I occassionally get a few people that will try to use it as a "get out of jail free" card)

As for contacting the higher-ups, don't expect some super-duper answer. They will tell you the same thing you will hear from the local officer. Or they will read the rule to you right out of the book! And as a higher-up, they will be even more reluctant to give you a written assurance (even most field officers aren't going to do that).

I know there is concern here about lead bullets and the "expanding bullet" rule. As has been said here a few times, and as is well known in the conservation LE profession, LEAD bullets are definately and historically considered as "expanding."

If you want some more clarification or you don't trust what the LEOs migh tell you, you could contact a local sportsmans club, or big hunting club in the area you want to hunt, and ask the members what is lawful to use in that area. Surely they would clear things up, and would know as much as you do about bullets, cartridges, etc.. You could get the verification you need in one phone call.

I assure you that officers are not running around with harness testers to check BHN. IF they even check your bullets, they will ask you for a loaded round. If it is lead, lead tipped, or a HP metal alloy of any design, you will meet the "expanding" requirements with no problems.

Feel free to shoot me a PM if you'd like.

[Crusty Deary Ol'Coot]

Well said Jon.

CDOC

[AKtinman]

Roundnoser, you have gone out of your way to put my mind at ease. Thank you!

I really appreciate everyone's comments. As I look back over them, I’m realizing I was over-thinking what should have been more obvious to me. I want to obey the law, so want to make sure I use the right boolit. Lead it is!

[Larry Gibson]

AKtinman

Enforcement differs from state to state and local to local depending on the different depatments attitude toward enforcement. John is correct to not expect much more than a quote from the law/reg from higher ups. You willhave to determine what is the enforcement attitude in the area you hunt to be on the safe side.

However, since you've chosen cast in the 5" m625 then you might try to find a Lyman 452490 mould. It is a GC mould and casts a very nice Thompson SWC. Mine weigh right at 245 gr when cast of 20-1 alloy or WW +2%tin/lead at 30/70. I size them at .452 as that is the throat size of my revolver. I'm pushing 1050 fps with Blue Dot. I use ACP cases and crimp in the crimp groove. A 3 shot half clip is used for headspace and with the obvious Keith SWC bullet and crimped case mouth they are easy to spot and not put in a 45 ACP semi. Besides the front driving band goes to hard against the leade and they don't chamber.

That bullet and load is very accurate and the soft lead alloy offers some expansion out to my own limit of 75 yards with an iron sighted revolver. I would HP the nose to 1/3 the nose length anyway for hunting. Should be good to 100 yards with your scoped revolver. That load is as good as a heavy .44 special load or a top end standard .45 Colt load. I put several injured deer down with heart/lung shots with that load as a LEO and wouldn't hesitate to hunt with it. The deer died very quickly.

Larry Gibson

[nanuk]

...Unlike many officers described here as not knowing very much, I do....

When an angler or hunter wants some kind of assurance, I provide my business card as a courtesy. If he is stopped by another officer, I tell him to explain the circumstance to the officer and provide him/her with my card, and ask that they call me. This way, there is no misunderstanding....
...,.
As for contacting the higher-ups, don't expect some super-duper answer. They will tell you the same thing you will hear from the local officer. Or they will read the rule to you right out of the book! And as a higher-up, they will be even more reluctant to give you a written assurance (even most field officers aren't going to do that)....
....
I know there is concern here about lead bullets and the "expanding bullet" rule. As has been said here a few times, and as is well known in the conservation LE profession, LEAD bullets are definately and historically considered as "expanding."
....
I assure you that officers are not running around with harness testers to check BHN. IF they even check your bullets, they will ask you for a loaded round. If it is lead, lead tipped, or a HP metal alloy of any design, you will meet the "expanding" requirements with no problems.

Feel free to shoot me a PM if you'd like.

Roundnoser, thanks for the response

this exemplifies what is wrong with the Legal (there is NO Justice) System in my Country!

We as law abiding citizens should NEVER have to use the courts to define what the law should clearly state.

You should NEVER have to give your Opinion on a law. You should be able to clearly state what is meant, and what is needed to clearly operate within it. And EVERY LEO, CO should be able to state it exactly the same way, in total agreement.

and as nice as it is, Your opinion would probably not work well for a defense in one were to end up in court.
I for one do not trust the courts in MY country as Everyone in Canada KNOWS they are Corrupted!

I DO NOT believe most of these laws are written by Incompetent idiots, but rather by very smart folks who make their living off the Legal System, and design into the laws the very means to keep them all employed. I would wager that 90% of them have Legal Backgrounds!

<<Big Rant edited out here>>

I am thankful there are members out there like yourself who offer help! But alas, you are too few and far between!

[Roundnoser]

Thanks Nanuk (of the North?!). I try really hard to be one of the trusted "good guys".
I don't sweat the small stuff. I have bigger fish to fry...Looking for poachers, polluters, etc. I rely on law-abiding folks to help me get the bad guys, so the good guys get as much help as I can give them....advice, hunting / fishing hot spots, maps, directions, courtesy checks, etc.

Sorry to hear that Canada has LE problems. I have relatives in Quebec, and I used to go hunting up there. I once tried contacting a Provencial game protector, (I asked for prefessional courtesy for the return call), and never heard from him. I was disappointed.

To the contrary, I have contacted COs in other states I visited and asked to meet them with great success...They took me and my wife out to dinner, gave me a tour of the area, etc.

[BOOM BOOM]

HI,
I bought the Forester hollow pointer for my hunting bullets. Just an easy quick solution to this issue. Do 6-20 rifle & 6-20 pistol rounds, all done, no argument.

And as an ex LEO, I can tell you that in my experience 75% of the officers I worked with had little or no interest or much experience with firearms & ammo. They only knew & shot enough to QUALIFY which only required a 70% hit rate on a siil./torso target.:Fire::Fire:

[TXGunNut]

Yes, Roundnoser, you are the exception to the rule, thank you for that. OTOH most of your colleagues are not interested in citing folks that are trying to do the right thing. They, like most LEO's, have bigger fish to fry. I think the problem arises when the CO is unclear on the law and needs guidance from a potential violator because of a poorly written law. That's a bad situation but we have to deal with it. As responsible hunters, shooters, reloaders, and boolit casters we need to be able to clearly articulate the law and be able to explain why our choice of equipment, while seemingly primitive, is actually very adequate and effective. We shouldn't have to do so, but getting the facts straight ahead of time may make an ally in the CO field and save a citation.
And yes, I'm an ex-LEO who made many more arrests than he wanted to. For most of my career I had the luxury of only making arrests or writing citations when other measures failed. Unfortunately, that was all too often.
BOOM BOOM: agreed. The last qualification course I fired I would have passed blindfolded, it's rumored some instructors did so. It amazes me that so many LEO's simply aren't interested in firearms.

[Roundnoser]

Thanks TXgunut: You are right about qualifications. Majority of officers attend the required 2 qualifications per year and nothing more. those quals only test the officer's "technical" proficiency with a firearm. -- An interesting factoid (I know we have gotten WAY off topic here!), FBI studies have shown that the majority of officers who were killed in shoot-outs (not ambushes) with the bad guys had no firearms training or practice other than what whas provided by the department...

[a.squibload]

OK, this was a LONG time ago...and not necessarily boolit-related.

A friend and I went dove hunting in a legal, open area.
First a County officer stopped, asked why we were shooting at night.
We explained about the allowed 30 min before sunrise 30 min after sunset thing.
He drove on.

Next a City officer, outside his jurisdiction, stopped, asked if we were shooting
toward "those houses over there", more than 2 miles away.
We explained how our #7½ birdshot didn't have a chance to make it that far,
and that we were way out of the city limits.
He drove on.

Next a Federal game warden stopped, what he was doing there I don't know.
Had his kid in the car so maybe was on the way to school (on the weekend?).
Checked our licenses, checked our magazines with a cut off piece of hose, and
drove on. He was the only one with any knowledge of hunting regs.

It was an OK place for doves but we never went back there.

[AKtinman]

Larry Gibson: Thank you for your suggestions. I will add your info to my files.... And maybe order another mold :)

There have been a lot of interesting comments posted here. I particularly appreciate the LEO comments.

Off topic, but maybe germane, when I was in the first grade, I lived with my grandparents in a small south Texas town. The county sheriff was a frequent visitor to my uncle’s Ford tractor dealership and visited with my granddad and my uncle. The sheriff took me to his office in the court house and showed me his revolver and introduced me to some of the fellows in the jail. He had the inmates tell me what they had done to land in the “calaboose”, and it was a strong lesson for a young lad. Today, that would be considered abuse to the inmates.

I am blessed.

Thanks to all.