.32 Seneca value help

[Fishman]

I am looking at a .32 caliber Thompson Center Seneca at the gun shop and it is in fairly rough condition. The stock is well dinged, but not so much that a light sanding and refinish won't make it look new again. The ramrod is a replacement and a poor one at that. The barrel (4 digit serial) is off the stock and the nipple is being soaked with penetrating oil before trying to get it out. The inside of the hammer is rust damaged but there is only light rust spots here and there on the barrel. No rust is evident in the end of the barrel but I can't see much past a inch or so.

They want $200 plus tax and I would like some advice on whether that is a good price and what my odds are with the bore. Also, if the bore is pitted, what are my options? They are holding it for me for a while while I think about it.

I've wanted a Seneca for a while and haven't ever seen one locally. However I don't want my judgement to be compromised by that.

So advise away and please be quick :)

[wv109323]

I admire the Seneca 32 also. The last one I seen at a gunshow was like $425.00. It was in about the same condition you describe except the wood may not have been as bad .
I think the internal condition of the barrel would be the deciding factor. Ask the shop owner if you could take the barrel and clean it. You should be able to tell what shape the bore is in.
Here in my neck of the woods 50 and 58 cal percussion and flintlocks are a dime a dozen but you just don't see .32 caliber.
I definetly like the T/C Seneca over the Traditions.

[Mk42gunner]

I liked the Seneca that my cousins' uncle used to let us kids shoot, I wouldn't mind finding another one.

Kit gun or factory finished? From what I have read, the kit guns s/n will begin with a K.

Since you said it has rust on the hammer, I would want to run a patch down the barrel to check it out. $200.00 doesn't sound bad if the bore is still good. If you would need a replacement barrel, the deal gets pretty iffy.

Robert

[Fishman]

It does not have a K in front of the serial number, which is 8xxx.

[eljefe]

If the bore is good, offer them $100. The bluebook
of gun values online subscription I have only goes
down to 80%, and that value is $185.

I am a dealer, and can tell you that most dealers
pay little or nothing for used muzzleloaders.

They may jump at your $100 offer.

[BDJ]

I think if the seneca has a good bore the $200 asking is just a little high. Maybe he would take $175.00

Most seneca's in .32 shot very well, they made great Squirrel guns.

I own a T/C Cherokee w/double triggers in .32 w/ T.C maxi and round ball molds and handles.
My son tells me it shoots well, I have never shot it. I used a 36 cal. seneca.

[smoked turkey]

I agree that you should run a few wet patches down the bore. If the bore is rough you can feel it. After half a dozen patches it should start to feel better. I was told that a light small enough to run down the bore was available at auto stores like O'Reilly Automotive. I don't know that for sure. You should be serious about it for that money. I would say that one in any condition is still worth looking at. I think you will be able to negoiate for a better deal than the asking price, expecially since it is rusted up pretty good. The nipple has a different thread on that one, so be careful when threading in another one. The Seneca nipple uses a 12-28 thread. I'd get a new one with a spare from TC if I were you.

[Fishman]

I appreciate everyones input. It turns out it is a Cherokee, I didn't pay as close attention to the barrel markings as I should have. I decided to put it in layaway until next week when I'll rescue it. The gun really spoke to me and I want to put it back in good working order. The gun shop manager is a friend of mine and I think I got the best deal I could. He had another buyer that wanted it so I had to buy or not this afternoon.

[Arnie]

I have bought a few TC Seneca's on line and they all had rusted barrels down toward the bottom .It doesnt show up till you shoot it and then try to load another round with out a good cleaning .The ball will catch and not seat easily like it should .Either way clean or fouled it tears patches because of the rusted areas down by the breach .These were in excellent looking condition and the one your looking at is a beater so im sure its rusted too .Arnie

[HARRYMPOPE]

Seneca's or Cherokees in 32 or 36 bring $350-450 typically.In good shape of course.

George

[BDJ]

Hi Fishman

Yea, kinda wondered about the Seneca in 32. Not saying that T/C never made the Seneca in 32, but . I have only seen a few and they were rebarreled.

You did OK on your purches. Pirodex P or fff worked great in my 36, my son used it in the 32 and it shot well. My son only shot the Cherokee maybe ten times, so can't tell a lot about a gun that was only shot ten times.
I myself did not like the Cherokee, the gun was not heavy enough.

Good luck with the Cherokee, them little cal. M/L are fun to shoot.

[Fishman]

I managed to get the little gun out of layaway today! Now that I have it I have a couple of questions.

The ramrod isn't original and it isn't very good. Does anyone have a recommendation for a small caliber ramrod suited to the cherokee? I did a google search a couple of weeks ago and couldn't find much and what I did find wasn't well described.

The barrel is loose even when seated in the hooked breach and the wedge installed. In fact, it can shift around. There appears to be no damage to either location but I can't think this is a good thing. Is this common, and is it something I should be concerned about?

I am going to check on the barrel interior tonight.

[TNsailorman]

Mountain States Muzzleloading sells flexible synthetic ramrods and I have one in my little .32 Cherokee. They are better than the wood ones, which are easily broken and are very thin little devils in .32 caliber. James

[smoked turkey]

As to the looseness of the barrel in the stock, you might try a couple of things. Try the barrel wedge in all its combinations. By that I mean turn it over and try both sides. Also try the same thing from the other side of the stock. Normally I can find a place where it will be more solid than others. You might have to try another to see if it can be improved.

[Fishman]

Mountain States Muzzleloading sells flexible synthetic ramrods and I have one in my little .32 Cherokee. They are better than the wood ones, which are easily broken and are very thin little devils in .32 caliber. James

Thanks, that was exactly the advice I was needing.

[Mk42gunner]

Yes to the synthetic ramrod for hunting. For range use I would get or make a metal (brass or steel) one.

Is the barrel loose in the hooked breech before you put the wedge in? Neither of my T/C's (a Renegade Deluxe and and a New Englander) are loose even with the wedge out.

Robert

[Fishman]

As to the looseness of the barrel in the stock, you might try a couple of things. Try the barrel wedge in all its combinations. By that I mean turn it over and try both sides. Also try the same thing from the other side of the stock. Normally I can find a place where it will be more solid than others. You might have to try another to see if it can be improved.

I flipped the wedge over and it did make a big difference. I guess the hooked breach is supposed to be that sloppy? I don't have a great deal of experience with traditional muzzleloaders.

It also turns out that I think it's loaded !:holysheep

The ramrod stops about 1.25 inches from the junction of the breech block and the barrel. Can anyone tell me if this is the case or the best way to check to make sure?

Gosh, I feel like such a noob. I guess that's a good thing because it means I'm doing something different than I've done before, and that's how you learn.

[Mumblypeg]

I have three Senecas. One 45 and two 36's. No 32's but one of the ram rods was missing on one of the 36's and I used an aluminum arrow shaft that works perfect. I think that you can fine one that will work for 32.

[Fishman]

Yes to the synthetic ramrod for hunting. For range use I would get or make a metal (brass or steel) one.

Is the barrel loose in the hooked breech before you put the wedge in? Neither of my T/C's (a Renegade Deluxe and and a New Englander) are loose even with the wedge out.

Robert

Yes it is loose enough to rattle when the wedge isn't present. It rotates on the axis of the bore from side to side. The tang and hooked breach doesn't appear to have ever been removed.

[Fishman]

I have three Senecas. One 45 and two 36's. No 32's but one of the ram rods was missing on one of the 36's and I used an aluminum arrow shaft that works perfect. I think that you can fine one that will work for 32.

I just checked and you are right! It's a perfect fit also for some extra carbon arrows I have. I don't know if the insert threads match the loading jag I have yet to acquire, but I'll find out. Thanks for the tip!

[mooman76]

Mountain States Muzzleloading sells flexible synthetic ramrods and I have one in my little .32 Cherokee. They are better than the wood ones, which are easily broken and are very thin little devils in .32 caliber. James

Mountain State Muzzle loading went out of business quite some time ago. I guess the two partners had a parting of the ways but one of them started up cainsoutdoors and still sells ML products. I bought my 32 cal ramrod there a couple years ago.

[waksupi]

Don't be afraid to put a little extra bend in a barrel wedge to tighten things up.

[pietro]

T/C made both Seneca's & Cherokee's in .32 - I had a Custom Shop .32 Seneca with a very high-polish bluing & upgraded wood.

The only difference between the two models is that the Seneca has a longer bbl & brass patchbox, etc.

Now, as to the OP's gun:

1) The barrel fit can be tightened via suspending the wedge between two hard edges, like the jaws of a vice, and give it a thwack with a heavy hammer to put a slight bow in it. When the bowed wedge is properly installed, it will pull the bbl down tighter than when it was straight.

2) To check for a loaded bbl, drop a dowel downbore until it stops, mark it at the muzzle, then withdraw the dowel & lay it alongside the barrel with the new mark at the muzzle.
Since T/C's have a patent breech, with the powder chamber in the snail area, if the rear end of the dowel falls anywhere short/forward of the barrel/breechplug seam, it is loaded with something.

The load is best removed with a screw-type bullet puller on a range rod, and the compacted powder dug out with the same; but it's also possible to remove the nipple & trickle in small amounts of powder, tap, trickle, tap, etc until the snail is full of new powder, re-install the nipple, cap & fire remotely w/string. (It may be loaded with smokeless powder & blow up)

.

[405]

Whew! Sounds like another project... all too common amongst the modern sidelock muzzleloaders of the recent past. Shoot, don't clean put in the closet. Or shoot, load then put in the closet. Ughh

If a screw type ball remover doesn't work, this may be one of the few instances where I'd recommend just finding a smith with the right vises and tools to remove the breech plug. If you decide to go that way be sure to tell him it may be loaded! Once the plug is out and bore cleaned, you'll have a much better chance to judge the condition of the bore.

As to the barrel wobbling in the channel with the wedge removed??? that doesn't exactly sound right. Loose to tip up and out- yes. Wobble or rotate sideways- no. Maybe I missed something in your explanation of that.... To tighten using the wedge tension- it takes VERY LITTLE bend to change that tension so go slow. The best way I know to do that is by putting about half the wedge in a vise then while "feeling" and watching as closely as you can, use a strong pair of pliers to bend it. Small steps!!! Check in the gun often. For tightening.... the hump of the bend will have to be away from the barrel. Alternately, you can take two strong pliers and grab each end of the wedge (being careful not to bugger the wedge head) and "feel" bend the wedge, again small steps and check in the gun often. Good luck!

[smoked turkey]

Let me speak to unloading the muzzleloader. I'd go to the top of this page and click on the "search" function at the top. Type in "unloading a muzzleloader". An excellent thread will pop up that has a few different ideas on what works in this situation. As always there are more than a couple of ways to go about it. Handle with care until you are sure it is unloaded. Keep the muzzle away from anything you don't want to shoot. It is not as big a deal as it might seem. You can do it.

[Fishman]

Lots of help here and I really appreciate it. It is definitely loaded so I will have to deal with that. The gun shop manager had put penetrating oil on the nipple to make sure it would come out so I guess I will have to get a screw bullet puller.

The barrel is definitely loose in the breech. I'll investigate further tomorrow when I get time.

It sounds like special tools are needed to remove the breech plug.

[Fishman]

Let me speak to unloading the muzzleloader. I'd go to the top of this page and click on the "search" function at the top. Type in "unloading a muzzleloader". An excellent thread will pop up that has a few different ideas on what works in this situation. As always there are more than a couple of ways to go about it. Handle with care until you are sure it is unloaded. Keep the muzzle away from anything you don't want to shoot. It is not as big a deal as it might seem. You can do it.

Thanks, I read that thread and will try using the vacuum hose and air nozzle first. Easy to try and I have the stuff for it already.

[405]

It sounds like special tools are needed to remove the breech plug.

Well, since the breech plug is likely rusted in pretty good (very normal with any muzzleloader no matter its history) it will likely take quite a bit of torque to get it started. Plus the T/C factory put those in very tight and with a bit of swage fit. Just a regular bench vise, padded jaws of some sort (aluminum, lead, etc.) along with a heavy duty open end wrench with a cheater might do it. But, it could also really mar up the flats on the barrel and the plug. Most gunsmiths have experience in removing barrels from actions and should have the better suited tools.

[Boerrancher]

I have several MLs that came from the factory with the breach plug screwed in so tight there was no way to remove it. Heck I figured they were silver soldered in. The only breach plug that I have ever removed from a ML is the one on my inline. I keep it coated with a liberal application of boolit lube so I can easily remove it, but I haven't taken it out of the rack in years. I just figured on traditional ML's you weren't supposed to remove the breach plug.

best wishes,

Joe

[Fishman]

Well good news and bad news. The good news is that the gun wasn't loaded. It was just a narrowing of the breech or something. Water flows through unimpeded and the bore is now free of fouling.

The bad news is that the bore literally looks like a moonscape. Once the fouling came off, the damage was clear. Pitting so bad that even entire lands are eaten away. Yikes!

So what to do? It occurs to me that I have a .36 round ball and a maxi mould too. How expensive would it be to get the barrel bored to .36 and hot blued? Who would do a good job? Is there a
better option? I know John Taylor is extremely well thought of, so I thought about asking what he could do.

So stupid tax has been paid. Now to make the best of it. I kind of like the .36 idea.

[mooman76]

If you do a search here. Someone mentioned about a month ago someone who will bore an recut what twist you want and for cheaper than a new barrel.

[smoked turkey]

Just a thought..you might try shooting it with a small charge of say20 gr (by volume using a black powder measure) and a PRB. You might not be as bad off as you think. Since I can't see the damage I can't tell if that is a good idea or not but I don't think it would hurt to try.

[pietro]

[The good news is that the gun wasn't loaded. It was just a narrowing of the breech or something. Water flows through unimpeded and the bore is now free of fouling. ]

T/C patent breech's have two features:

They unhook from the rear tang, staying attached to the barrel, to make removing the barrel from the wood EZ for cleaning.

They contain a powder chamber that's smaller in diameter than the respective bore(s).

For a rebore/rerifle from .32 to .36, Bob Hoyt's rep is good, but IDK if he's still doing the rebores.

Bob Hoyt
700 Fairfield Station Rd
Fairfield, PA 17320
717 642 6696

FWIW, There's plenty of sage ML advice, over on the Traditional ML forum:

http://www.muzzleloadingforum.com/fusionbb/index.php?



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