Primer ID

[44man]

My primer selection is low and I want to know which brand and size a primer is, standard or magnum.
It is a LP and the compound is yellow. The cup is silver color.

[cajun shooter]

I have three brands of primers. I use thge Federal first and the others on a have to time. They are Federal, Winchester and CCI. The federal has a siver cap and a greenish mix. The Winchester have a brass colored cap and a red mix. The CCI have the silver and yellow mix and they are LP Magnum. Later David

[44man]

I have three brands of primers. I use thge Federal first and the others on a have to time. They are Federal, Winchester and CCI. The federal has a siver cap and a greenish mix. The Winchester have a brass colored cap and a red mix. The CCI have the silver and yellow mix and they are LP Magnum. Later David
Thank you very much. That is what I thought they were.

[mpmarty]

I'm not bright enough to keep track of primers by type1 mod0 eyeball. Therefore my only primers are Winchester and Wolf. Wolf are all brass color metal and the Winchesters are silver colored. I do mike them from time to time to separate the LR from the LP. Difference in how "tall" they are. Pistol primers are shorter.

[MtGun44]

Interesting.

All mine come in little boxes with the type and application printed on the outside.

Bill

[Reload3006]

Interesting.

All mine come in little boxes with the type and application printed on the outside.

Bill

and that is the best way to keep them. I have some old winchester Large rifle primes they were silver cup with blue mix. I have some I bought a year ago they have a Brass colored cup and Red mix. Think I would be very careful about using them especially in Max loads you may not like what you get.

[cbrick]

Interesting.

All mine come in little boxes with the type and application printed on the outside. Bill

Yeah, really. When I first read the OP I was confused enough I didn't post. All primers are stored and kept in the original box, it's hard to wrap my mind around not doing so.

There is only one primer box on my bench at any one time exactly like powder, there is one can of powder on my bench at any one time, the same powder that's in the measure and the primer box is the one that's in the brass I'm loading. When that batch of brass is completed the powder measure is emptied and the powder can put back into the locker. The primer box if empty is thrown away, if not empty it's put back in the primer cabinet.

So what is there to identify? Confused.

Rick

[prs]

I store all of mine in a half gallon mason jaw with tight lid way up high on a shelf I can barely reach. That way if I drop them I don't have to worry about picking them up. ;-)

prs

ps: You do know I am kidding, right?

[Tatume]

Color of the primer cup will not tell you anything. I've seen nickle and brass colored cups in the same box of primers many times.

[44man]

Interesting.

All mine come in little boxes with the type and application printed on the outside.

Bill
It is because I said some factory loads had LP mag primers and my friend said no. So I pulled one, .44 mag, found 18.5 gr of powder for a 320 gr boolit and a yellow primer compound.
I do not know the powder, looks like H110. Might be Accurate no 9???
The argument we have is I said the loads shoot like they have LP mag primers in them.
Every indication says I am correct and the primer is a CCI 350.
A CCI 300 is orange in color.

[rond]

Winchester uses the same LP primer for regular and magnum ammo.

[44man]

Winchester uses the same LP primer for regular and magnum ammo.
I have them but they are not yellow.
I have no other way to identify these. I have many different primers but no CCI LP mag primers to see but I have to assume that is what they are.

[Stove_Pipe]

I only have CCI primers, but the small and large rifle are yellow and the pistol ones are orange.

[Shuz]

If my memory can be depended on, I recall seeing different colors of the primer mix in the same size and type of primer (but in different lots of 1000) from the same manufacturer down thru the years. I would not try and identify any primer based on color of primer mix, or anvil and/or cup color.

[Mal Paso]

I have them but they are not yellow.
I have no other way to identify these. I have many different primers but no CCI LP mag primers to see but I have to assume that is what they are.

Shoot em and see if your groups open up. :kidding:


The CCI LP Mag, Federal 150 (Std.) and 155M (Mag.) in my stock are all silver with yellow compound.

[Flinchrock]

I don't think he's working up a load,,
Just trying to identify components used to load a batch of ammo...

[cajun shooter]

Boy, I'll tell you this is something. When I first came to this board everyone was was ready to give a helping hand and now it seems that we have members that can't wait to start a disagreement.
I understood without asking what 44 man was needing. He either had a load that he was trying to see what components were used or like me had several primers that had spilled and trying to ID them.
I will at times either drop because of bad hand a box of primers and put them on my shelf. Then do it again with a different type of primer. When it comes time to put them in the correct boxes I need to figure which ones they are.
For you posters who claim to have different colored metal and mixes in the same box. I have been loading since 1969 and for three of those years worked in a gun store that had many types of primers, even some made in other countries and I have never once encountered that.
Don't show me no pictures as that is a easy set up. I even loaded ammunition for our 600 man force and I dare to say in my 15 years HAVE NEVER VIEWED DIFFERENT PRIMERS IN ONE BOX.
Stove Pipe if you take a look at the CCI large pistol magnum primer you will see the yellow mix. The orange is the standard primer. Later David

[mroliver77]

I somehow ended up with a couple hundred mixed loose primers a few years back. I thought about pitching them along with some small rifle that had definitely been very wet and stored in a falling down building. I was shooting some .22 pellets in the .223 powered by primer only. The wet primers had been in a dry drawer for a couple years so I tried them. All performed as new!

Willbird made me a swage die for double ended wadcutter. 224. We had a menagerie of .222, .223 and .224 odds and ends. I swagged then to .224 and loaded over 8gr Unique. From my upstairs computer room window to the garden was 30 - 40 yards. The wadcutters worked great for whacking garden munchers. It mattered little if a pistol or rifle primer was used with the 8 gr load. Magnum or standard hit to same point of aim. I used up all the odd primers this way. Lubed cast boolits were swagged to wadcutters also. They make a mess out of blackbirds and grackles!

Keith type pistol boolits in the 30-06 over a dose of Unique again cared little what primer and took bunnies and chucks down with great authority Loaded backwards they hit like a wadcutter!

[WILCO]

and now it seems that we have members that can't wait to start a disagreement

I didn't see it that way. Just seemed like some flying by the seat of your pants reloading techniques in the OP and other folks were scratching their heads, thinking "Huh?". There's reasons why all of my reloading manuals say to never mix gun powders in an effort to get that "magic" blend. [smilie=s:

[Jim]

A friend once gave me a 500 count Tylenol bottle full of large primers. No clue what they were. I made a label for the bottle, "REC. LOADS" (recreational), and used 'em for bangin' ammo.

[Gtek]

Even if you pay $40.00/1000 that is $.04 a piece. Really? Is it worth even the time of loading a POSSIBLE UNKNOWN or the risk that could be induced? Properly dispose of and get off your purse Mildred. I am as CHEAP a Bast**** as they come on most things, I also struggle with where the line is, but four cents? Gtek

[44man]

Now that sounds like fun, a pellet from a rifle! :bigsmyl2:
Been doing some work testing pellets for a friend out of his RWS, at 10 yards. I put a bipod on and had many, many different pellets make one hole, impressive! I shot prone and I can say "don't do it." I had to get up off the basement rug so many times to cock the gun I got rug burns on my elbows. [smilie=l:
Back to the primers, the loads I tested shot large groups, 3-1/2" to 4" at 50 while my loads would do down to 1/2" with many at 1".
We did not argue but I said they shoot like mag primers and my loads will do the same if I use the mag.
That brought me to pulling one.
Wonderful boolit, Starline brass but the yellow primer stared at me.
Fed primers, LP and LP mag are all green so I can't tell. If I drop primers, find them later, I toss them. Powder from factory loads also will be tossed out. I don't fool with that stuff.
I was just trying to prove a point, don't know how successful I was! [smilie=s: He still says I am wrong.
I do not have the CCI 350 primers, used them all up and have been staying with Fed primers so I could not tell.
Yes, I use a lot of mag primers, just not in the .44.
I can't explain 100% why but even working loads will triple my groups with mag primers so I got away from them in the late 70's when I started IHMSA. I could not shoot decent scores until I changed.
I shot this practice chicken at 200 meters with my 7R, put it down and shot it twice with my SBH. I could barely hit a ram with mag primers. I am not pulling your chains. I used the Hornady 240 sil bullet, 23.5 gr of 296, open sights, Creedmore position. Fed 150 primers. I know, the dreaded "J" word! :razz:
Somewhere along the line, my eyes fell out, rolled in the dirt. Now when I hunt deer I see stuff moving, it is all the floaters in my eyes! [smilie=l:

[44man]

Even if you pay $40.00/1000 that is $.04 a piece. Really? Is it worth even the time of loading a POSSIBLE UNKNOWN or the risk that could be induced? Properly dispose of and get off your purse Mildred. I am as CHEAP a Bast**** as they come on most things, I also struggle with where the line is, but four cents? Gtek
You are correct, never save anything unknown but that was not the question.
I just wanted to know what primer it was to try and settle a little argument.
I have heard of some that punch out primers and use them again---sorry, it does not compute, the compound has been ruined and the anvil pushed in.

[Rocky Raab]

The whole issue seems moot to me. Factories seldom use canister powders, so it is impossible to identify what was in that one disassembled load - other than to describe it as a fine spherical powder. The comment that the loads "shoot like they have LP mag primers in them" is perplexing; I have NO idea what that might mean. Nor do I believe anybody could make such a discrimination by shooting a given load.

The only thing I would venture for sure is that the factory .44 Magnum load in question uses a primer that is compatible with the powder. Anything beyond that is simply a wildass guess.

Edit to add: One other thing. The color you see inside a primer is probably not the mix itself. The priming pellet is covered with a paper or foil disc and lacquered to seal the pellet against moisture. So you are seeing that lacquer, which may or may not be tinted as a type identifier.

[44man]

The whole issue seems moot to me. Factories seldom use canister powders, so it is impossible to identify what was in that one disassembled load - other than to describe it as a fine spherical powder. The comment that the loads "shoot like they have LP mag primers in them" is perplexing; I have NO idea what that might mean. Nor do I believe anybody could make such a discrimination by shooting a given load.

The only thing I would venture for sure is that the factory .44 Magnum load in question uses a primer that is compatible with the powder. Anything beyond that is simply a wildass guess.

Edit to add: One other thing. The color you see inside a primer is probably not the mix itself. The priming pellet is covered with a paper or foil disc and lacquered to seal the pellet against moisture. So you are seeing that lacquer, which may or may not be tinted as a type identifier.
I just called a friend that has CCI 350 primers he just bought today. They are Yellow, no doubt at all.
Now just what powder in the .44 really needs a mag primer? A lower charge with a faster powder sure does not need a mag primer.
There is no powder compatible with the .44 that needs a mag primer.
You better be sure that I CAN tell the difference after shooting the .44 since 1956. I never guess.

[Rocky Raab]

I'm sure you believe you can discriminate between standard and magnum primers by shooting. And I'm equally sure I don't believe it. But as it is pointless to debate it, we'll just let that pass.

I will debate your comment about powders, however. Both Winchester and Hodgdon say that W296/H110 requires a magnum primer (or Winchester's extra-hot standard) and I'll rely on their expertise for that.

[44man]

I'm sure you believe you can discriminate between standard and magnum primers by shooting. And I'm equally sure I don't believe it. But as it is pointless to debate it, we'll just let that pass.

I will debate your comment about powders, however. Both Winchester and Hodgdon say that W296/H110 requires a magnum primer (or Winchester's extra-hot standard) and I'll rely on their expertise for that.
Yes, that is also in every loading manual.
But why has Fed switched to the 150 for all their factory .44 loads?
Case size dictates the primer, not the powder.
I even use the Fed 150 in the .45 Colt with heavy boolits and loads of 296, Mag primers are still not as good.
296 and H110 only need HEAT, not pressure. Fire lights powder.
If you shoot 6" at 50 yards and try different primers with out a change, I believe you. When you are able to get to 1/2" and tell me they are the same, you will be wrong.
Test results for many years and thousands of groups is what counts. Even this shot at -20* shows the standard primer works better.
OOPS, lost picture. Next post.

[44man]

Try this. I really want you to test, not read stuff.

[303Guy]

I'm thinking that 44 man has done enough precision shooting and loading to be able to tell, using his guns. He's posted some of his range results and I believe him. I've seen two guns using the same powder and one 'needed' mag primers to burn the powder fully while mine didn't. No target comparisons, just the partially burned powder kernels in the bore. Mine did need enough powder to burn fully so perhaps at lower loadings the mag primer might have been indicated.

[44man]

I'm thinking that 44 man has done enough precision shooting and loading to be able to tell, using his guns. He's posted some of his range results and I believe him. I've seen two guns using the same powder and one 'needed' mag primers to burn the powder fully while mine didn't. No target comparisons, just the partially burned powder kernels in the bore. Mine did need enough powder to burn fully so perhaps at lower loadings the mag primer might have been indicated.
Thank you, I have worked very, very hard for a long time.
Bring your loads, same boolit, powder, etc and try to slip in mag primers for the .44, I will tell you.
It is like wine tasting. I can't tell anything and will drink cheap stuff.
Some will explain every smell or nuance . Sorry, I can't but I will tell you about a primer.
Cheap whiskey is still good to me, better lasts no longer. Don't fool me with a primer, you can't. [smilie=l:

[geargnasher]

44Man,, you've probably demonstrated the difference in primers with more than just one or two pistols too, I would think. If 50+ years of dropping the hammer doesn't start to reveal some pretty solid trends, I don't know what will.

Gear

[MtGun44]

OK, makes sense now that you explained it. I was confused as to how an undentified
batch of primers would come up.

If you have it narrowed to CCI, then it sounds like you have it nailed. I am pretty
certain that the manufacturers are real consistent with their own color codes,
which would not apply across brands.

Bill

[Olevern]

Bill,
If you have reloaded for as long as I have, and you probably have (45 years) you might have noted a couple (maybe two in 45 years) incidents where a factory has gone from brass colored primers to 'silver', plated in a particular priimer, however this kind of change has only been observed by me, like I said, perhaps one or two times over a very long time period.

I noticed it when changing boxes half way thru a particular run of loading (used to load for my dept. of about two hundred men, we used reloads for a practice run at qualifications, then factory loads for the qualification run that counted), so I loaded over the years hundreds of thousands of loads of, back then, 38 spl. double ended Wadcutter loads on a star reloader.

When we quit loading our own (new boss worried about liability, 'though we never had an incident) that old Star and the molds and three Star boolit sizers mysteriously disappeared from the ammunition magazine. I got permission from the boss to take home the remainding primers and powder (two unopened kegs of bullseye and another with little less than a half remaining) I loaded with that bullseye for years for myself. The kegs were considerably larger than those avail now, IIRC they were 15 lbs each.

Alas, it is all gone now, and I didn't have the forsight to keep the kegs, they were common in the day.

As for identifying loose primers on the bench, yes, I have from time to time found such, but discarded them rather than attempt to use them. I burn most of my trash up here, and they can be quite a surprise when they find there way into the burn barrel.

[44man]

Long ago I would buy 4831 in a 40# keg.
I still have half a can of Red Dot in a big red metal can. :veryconfu
I still have some shotgun primers that must be 50 years old.
I have3 MEC shotgun loaders but hardly load or shoot shotguns anymore, no birds here. Snow killed all the quail and pheasant. I can't hit beans with the things anymore anyway. I would have to hold the barrel up and let a bird fly into it! :shock:
Good time to bring up a problem for you to watch for. If you shoot traditional muzzle loaders, be careful of caps. I have some RWS caps and some other foreign brand I won at shoots. The cups are brittle and pieces can hit you in the face and stick in your skin. I use nothing but Rem or CCI caps now. I hate to pick metal out of my nose or chin. I have scratches on my glasses.
I now use them to clear the nipples before loading but I drape a rag over the guns. They scare the heck out of me.
Primers do not bother me, I can't count how many live ones I have pushed out even with hand tools I made. I never had one go off.
One friend did have one fire. He lost one by his vise and was soldering something with a torch---SURPRISE! [smilie=w:
Our little argument has gotten a little heated with E mail from my friend so I quit. No more sense in it.
I want to thank all of you for your input.

[Bwana]

QUOTE=44man;1544764]Yes, that is also in every loading manual.
But why has Fed switched to the 150 for all their factory .44 loads?
Case size dictates the primer, not the powder.
I even use the Fed 150 in the .45 Colt with heavy boolits and loads of 296, Mag primers are still not as good.
296 and H110 only need HEAT, not pressure. Fire lights powder.
If you shoot 6" at 50 yards and try different primers with out a change, I believe you. When you are able to get to 1/2" and tell me they are the same, you will be wrong.
Test results for many years and thousands of groups is what counts. Even this shot at -20* shows the standard primer works better.
OOPS, lost picture. Next post.[/QUOTE]

Just a few thoughts: Regarding case size dictating the primer and not the powder. Generally the larger cases use slower powders which, in the case of "ball" powders have more deterrent coatings. These powders work better when fired by a hot primer. In handgun rounds, if you are using heavy bullets and or heavy crimps this can mitigate the need for a hot primer. One other instance where hot primers are a plus is when shooting in cold weather. This discussion has led me to dig out back issues of Handloader and Rifle Magazines and read some of the articles. Kinda nostalgic. Also kind of saddening that articles with that kind of depth are not available these days.

[44man]

QUOTE=44man;1544764]Yes, that is also in every loading manual.
But why has Fed switched to the 150 for all their factory .44 loads?
Case size dictates the primer, not the powder.
I even use the Fed 150 in the .45 Colt with heavy boolits and loads of 296, Mag primers are still not as good.
296 and H110 only need HEAT, not pressure. Fire lights powder.
If you shoot 6" at 50 yards and try different primers with out a change, I believe you. When you are able to get to 1/2" and tell me they are the same, you will be wrong.
Test results for many years and thousands of groups is what counts. Even this shot at -20* shows the standard primer works better.
OOPS, lost picture. Next post.

Just a few thoughts: Regarding case size dictating the primer and not the powder. Generally the larger cases use slower powders which, in the case of "ball" powders have more deterrent coatings. These powders work better when fired by a hot primer. In handgun rounds, if you are using heavy bullets and or heavy crimps this can mitigate the need for a hot primer. One other instance where hot primers are a plus is when shooting in cold weather. This discussion has led me to dig out back issues of Handloader and Rifle Magazines and read some of the articles. Kinda nostalgic. Also kind of saddening that articles with that kind of depth are not available these days.[/QUOTE]
I used jacketed 240 gr bullets for IHMSA. Good and even case tension, moderate roll crimp.
I use 296 in the .44, .45 Colt, .475 and .500 JRH. Only the last two shoot better with mag primers but standard primers will fire them, no failures.
I consider primer pressure and primer heat two different things. Both have heat but more compound has more pressure.

[jwp475]

I just called a friend that has CCI 350 primers he just bought today. They are Yellow, no doubt at all.
Now just what powder in the .44 really needs a mag primer? A lower charge with a faster powder sure does not need a mag primer.
There is no powder compatible with the .44 that needs a mag primer.
You better be sure that I CAN tell the difference after shooting the .44 since 1956. I never guess.



Yes CCI primers are YELLOW both LP and LP mag


http://i33.photobucket.com/albums/d62/jwp475/Photo049.jpg

[snuffy]

http://www.shootingtimes.com/files/2010/09/st_mamotaip_200909-a.jpg

Quoted from and picture from a shooting times article here;

http://www.shootingtimes.com/2011/01/04/ammunition_st_mamotaip_200909/


Most component primers have a little disk of paper between the anvil and the priming mix. Called the foil paper, it covers a priming pellet and is simply a manufacturing expediency. The anvil is omitted in this view for clarity.

By manufacturing expediency, they mean the paper/foil is used to prevent the priming pellet, which is inserted into the bottom of the cup wet, from sticking to the punch. The primer manufactures use the different color papers to identify their own primers.

I doubt they would ever supply us with a chart to help us out, if we forget, then leave primers in a primer feeder WITHOUT remembering to empty back into to their boxes. Or remembering to mark that tube with something to remind ourselves of what's in them.

[jwp475]

Excellent illistration

[44man]

http://www.shootingtimes.com/files/2010/09/st_mamotaip_200909-a.jpg

Quoted from and picture from a shooting times article here;

http://www.shootingtimes.com/2011/01/04/ammunition_st_mamotaip_200909/



By manufacturing expediency, they mean the paper/foil is used to prevent the priming pellet, which is inserted into the bottom of the cup wet, from sticking to the punch. The primer manufactures use the different color papers to identify their own primers.

I doubt they would ever supply us with a chart to help us out, if we forget, then leave primers in a primer feeder WITHOUT remembering to empty back into to their boxes. Or remembering to mark that tube with something to remind ourselves of what's in them.
Yes, you are right. Many are the exact same color and that can change over time. Some show the same color from mag to standard and Fed's are all the same color, green.
All of my CCI standards are orange and if they changed, I will not argue about it. They just might be all yellow now but the results on the target can be discerned. If you can't, it is you or your loads, maybe the gun.

[jwp475]

Yes, you are right. Many are the exact same color and that can change over time. Some show the same color from mag to standard and Fed's are all the same color, green.
All of my CCI standards are orange and if they changed, I will not argue about it. They just might be all yellow now but the results on the target can be discerned. If you can't, it is you or your loads, maybe the gun.

I have shot many very accurate loads with a mag primer behind H-110/296 and I am sure that a standard primer will also produce accurate loads at top end charge weights.

NOthing is set in stone when it cames to accuracy, there are certainly standards, just more than one way to get there

[44man]

I have shot many very accurate loads with a mag primer behind H-110/296 and I am sure that a standard primer will also produce accurate loads at top end charge weights.

NOthing is set in stone when it cames to accuracy, there are certainly standards, just more than one way to get there
Do we finally come to terms and agree? I hope so, we have to get to be friends again.