Sharps Mid Range Rifles

[AlanF]

As some of you have read I am trying to decide exactly which rifle I want to order. With this in mind I have been doing some research via printed material and the web. My primary interest has been in the Sharps Mid-Range rifles. In searching the web I have come across 8 Sharps Mid-Range rifles and 1 Sharps “German Pattern” Schuetzen rifle. Perhaps you will find it interesting and if you have any more info on the Sharps Mid-Range rifles please share.

Of the nine rifles the breakdown is as follows:

6 are Sharps Mid-Range Rifles No.1 with pistolgrip stocks
2 are Sharps Mid-Range Rifles No.3 with straight stocks (both are documented as No. 3 and not No. 2 which I could find no example of except in Sellers)
1 is a Sharps Schuetzen Rifle with pistolgrip stock

5 are 40-70 (According to Sellers the Bottle Neck version was standard)
2 listed as 44 Sharps (no indication as to 77 or 90)
2 listed as 40-50 SBN (including the Schuetzen rifle)

6 have 30” barrels (including the Schuetzen rifle)
3 have 28” barrels

7 have full octagon barrels (including the Schuetzen rifle)
1 has a half octagon barrel
1 has a round barrel

6 have the Sporting buttplate (including the Schuetzen rifle)
3 have the Shotgun buttplate

8 have the Lawrence barrel sight (including the Schuetzen rifle)
1 has had the barrel sight removed

7 have single triggers
2 have the double set-triggers (including the Schuetzen rifle)

6 have checkered stocks
3 have no checkering (including the Schuetzen rifle and the two No.3 Mid-Range rifles)

Also interesting is that of the 5 rifles that have documentation of where they were originally shipped (including the Schuetzen rifle) all were shipped East of the Mississippi.

Getting closer to a decision.

Thanks for reading.

Alan

[bigted]

guess im not sure what your asking here about sharps rifles...you looking at shiloh's , c-sharps , italian sharps , origanal sharps rifles... not sure what you want to do with your rifle and that makes a difference which model you choose. also makes a difference on what calibre to recomend.

more info on what yer lookin for first and what itll be used for mostly.

[AlanF]

Ted,

Not really asking a question just sharing some of the interesting info I found during my research. The rifle will be a Shiloh Sharps and patterend after one of the original Mid Range Rifle No.3's I found chambered in 40-50SBN. Sould be a nice Eastern US hunting rifle and hold its own on the short to mid range target ranges. Thanks.

Alan

[NickSS]

First of all it sounds like you were looking at sales ads for original sharps rifles and what the sellers were saying about them. There is no way that a 40-50 Sharps would be considered a mid range rifle for instance nor one setup for shutzen competition which was shot at 200 yards. Sharps made several rifles with different barrels and lengths for it customers. The No 1 Sporting rifle usually came with fancy wood and a pistol grip. Some of these were used for mid range competition which means they were used for target shooting between the ranges of 200 and 800 yards. The No 3 Sporting rifle had a straight grip and any one of several different butt stocks. These were mostly used as hunting rifles but could also be used for mid range target work. Then they made a business rifle which usually had a 28 inch round barrel and was a plain jane sort of gun meant for use a a hunting rifle by professional hunters. With sharps barrel type (round, octagonal, half round half octagonal and length) were up to the customer. They could have any caliber and barrel as well as wood trigger type etc they harts desired. The same is true today from Shiloh and C, Sharps. The true target rifles of the era were made to conform to special rules. they could weigh no more than 10 1/2 pounds. Have a single trigger with a pull of not less than 4 pounds and were usually made with very high quality wood and cost like two or three times what other rifles cost. Some of these were the so called model of 1877 with a special light weight frame and lock so that more weight could be put into the barrel. The weight of Sharps action was one reason that sharps did not sell very many target rifles. These rifle were used for 900, 1000 and 1200 yard matches popular at the time.

[AlanF]

Nick I would call your attention to page 90 of "The Gun That Shaped American Destiny" where you will read that the Mid-Range Rifle No.2 is advertised as available in 40 caliber "chambered for 50 grains powder and 265 grains lead." Those who are familiar with the 40-50 Sharps BN repeatedly say it is capable at distances beyond 200 yards. The Mid-Range No.3 was discontinued at the end of 1877 and only the No.1 and No.2 continued until late 1879. Additionally in Sellers' book on page 230 he shows one of the Mid-Range No.1 rifles which he refers to as "very plain" and indeed the stocks on the ones I have seen would be rated as "semi fancy" tops and most would rate "standard" by today's standards. Regarding the Schuetzen rifle, a copy of the Sharps ledger page shows it as a Schuetzen model and it along with 14 similar rifles where shipped in May 1878. Of the 69 Schuetzen rifles made by Sharps all but 4 went to the New York Central Schuetzen Corps.

Just reporting what is written and recognizing that Sharps seems to have done a decent job keeping records. Thanks.

[Chill Wills]

Alan,
Do you want to order a rifle to match some historic rifle model that would have been at the midrange match in the 1875-1890 era? Even match it down to the chamber-rate of twist and bullet weight and style?

Or, are you going for the configuration of the rifle being correct outwardly and the chambering, rate of twist and bullet be more in line with what would compete today.

So as to be clearer I would like to understand your goals.
Here is why I ask. If you want a historically correct rifle in every aspect to own, shoot and enjoy, I get it.

If you want to compete in today’s black powder midrange matches, either NRA 3 Position or Any Position (prone) matches a Sharps pattern midrange rifle with a faster twist 40 and a less demanding cartridge with a little more powder capacity would make you competitive.

I do not know you so I do not assume any ability level regards to loading and shooting but the 40-50BN with 265 grn bullet would be sucking wind in a big way at 300y and 600y. And then, If any kind if wind was blowing, the 200y score would be reduced as well. This compared to what is being used today,…. the Larger 40’s and 45’s rule.

Continuing with the “I do not want to assume anything about your ability” part, have you loaded for a bottleneck BP round? If you have then you know what to do but if by chance you do not have much or any black powder cartridge loading experience I would give a straight walled case a go first. The learning curve is much less.

If this sounds in any way negative, it is not meant to be. Just the opposite! Clearly you are thoughtful in your approach and have something clear in mind. I would like to follow along to see how this goes.

All the best,

[AlanF]

Chill Wills,

Thanks for the comments. My goal is a rifle that is era correct outwardly and in the chambering so far as it pertains to the cartridge fired. The fine details of the chambering and twist rate can, and I think should be, tweaked for modern brass and bullets. Currently I am planning on having a mould made to cast a 330gr bullet designed for hunting and causal target shooting. It is not likely that I will be involved in formal target shooting in the near future. However, there is testimony on these pages, on other forums, and in the printed word of the 40-50 (both Straight and BN) being used effectively in BPCRS. This of course requires a bullet better suited for such an application. If I go that route at some future date I plan to work with Steve Brooks to have a mould made. So ultimately my goal for this rifle is a rifle that will be enjoyable to shoot and effective on Eastern US game animals.

Regarding the loading of BN cartridges with BP - I am familiar with some of the particular details that need to be addressed and am planning accordingly.

Thank you for the thought-provoking questions.

Alan

[EDK]

Glenn Fryxell has an article about 40/50 Sharps over at lasc.us...I haven't read it yet, but I'd trust Glenn for almost any subject.

I wouldn't try to change your mind...others didn't have much success convincing me that I didn't really want to order a 50/90 Long Range Express from Shiloh because I had three good reasons. When they said SHARPS, all my life I thought BIG 50; Miss Ellen said they would be glad to make me exactly what I wanted; AND I had a check for the deposit in my pocket. Miss Ellen agreed on the three good reasons and I got my rifle 16 months later....and it's just what I wanted then and now.

If you're happy with your choices, that's all that counts. If you aren't, Kirk and the elves at SHILOH will re-chamber or re-barrel for a nominal amount and in a reasonable amount of time. By the way, get MVA scope mount bases installed on the barrel when they build the gun IF you have any thoughts about a scope in the future...a lot cheaper and saves a trip to the gunsmith or factory! I will be getting a scope in the next year or two myself.

:redneck::cbpour::guntootsmiley:

[NickSS]

Well thanks for the info I have never heard of a no 2 Sharps so that's a new one to me. As far as the 40-50 cartridge it is a good accurate round and I have though of getting a rifle in that caliber off and on. I have shot one that is a Shiloh Schtzen rifle in 40-50 Sharps bottle neck that a friend of mine ownes and uses for BP Schutzen matches. Though I have not used one for this purpose several people I know including the guy who owns one says that it is a bit light for Silhouettes at full range. As I shoot a 40-65 for this purpose and have rang a couple of Rams over the years at 500 meters I tend to believe that. As far as Mid range competition I have shot many bulls eye matches out to 800 yards and generally the 40 calibers in general did not do as well as the 45 caliber rifles. This is not saying that you would be not hit the target or get decent scores. It's up to you.

[AlanF]

Nick,

Truthfully most of my shooting with this rifle will be hunting and informal shooting. I think a 350gr bullet at 1200+ fps will work on just about any Eastern US game animal.

You mentioned shooting a Sharps Schuetzen rifle in 40-50SBN, according to the Garbe/Venturino book the 40-50SBN was introduced in 1869 as a mid-range target caliber for the Sharps Schuetzen rifles. It is surprisingly close to the 40-65 in performance if the data I've read is an accurate representation of real-world performance.

Certainly a large variety of Sharps rifles left CT before the doors were closed and it is an interesting subject of study.

Alan

[Chill Wills]

[QUOTE=AlanF;1545337 the 40-50SBN was introduced in 1869 as a mid-range target caliber for the Sharps Schuetzen rifles. It is surprisingly close to the 40-65 in performance if the data I've read is an accurate representation of real-world performance.
Alan[/QUOTE]

Hmmmm - That would be a real stretch. I am not a fan of the Winchester 40-65 as a singleshot being it is a lever round and Ron Long really got it going back at a time when brass was hard to come by for correct rounds like 40-70 but that aside, the two rounds, 40-50BN and Win 40-65 in a singleshot are not on even turf. It starts with powder capacity.

The 40-50bn would be fine at 200y for schuetzen work, powder wise, but I would want to speed the twist up from the old days to shoot a longer bullet. Bullets can be seated out or breach seated which negates the powder capacity issues.

I hope this helps,

[Don McDowell]

Alan just for the fun of it.
In the 1877 Sharps Catalog they list the Mid Range Rifle No.3
40/100 caliber,octagon 30 in.barrel.singletrigger-3lbs pull: weight about 9lbs;broad hand made butt with checkered butt plate, peep and globe sights, chambered for 50 grains powder and 265 grs of lead............S45.00
Can be chambered for heavier cartridges if desired, extra charge for rechambering...$1.00

[AlanF]

Don that's the rifle I'm looking at having Shiloh make for me. It will of course have a faster twist rate and I will plan to use a bullet of about 330gr for hunting and a 400gr for clanging more distant targets. Should make for a fun little rifle for carry and at the range.

[Don McDowell]

Alan Shiloh uses a 16 twist, sharps used 18.. not that much faster.
If you look up Cornell publishing, you can order a copy of Ned Roberts Schuetzen rifle book, you will find quite a bit of interesting reading on cartridges from the day doing what you are looking at doing.
He does comment on the 40 sharps cartridges and you may find his words gathered from actual use of those cartridges quite interesting..

[AlanF]

Thanks Don I just ordered a copy. Hopefully it will get here soon as I need to finalize the details with Shiloh very soon. I also ordered the 1877 catalog as I've been wanting to get one of the Sharps catalogs for a while.

[Don McDowell]

A fella can spend alot of money at Abby's place...
You can go ahead and get your name in for the rifle, You'll have a year before you have to finalize and pay up.

[Montana Ron]

I had 5 Sharps rifles...........50-70, 45-70, 40-70,40-70 bottle neck, 40-65 and I ended up with the 40-65 as MY hunting rifle choice from shooting bear,deer,prairie dogs,bunnies and carp and maybe a buffalo this month...........can shoot 41 mag pistol bullets to 400 gr cast bullets.........recoil is easy to deal with, lighter half round half octagon barrel rifles carry easy for hunting and they shoot super accurately....the pistol bullet shooting makes for a lot of fun and more time shooting your hunting rifle equals a lot more success when it's a big mulie and not a
wise *** p-dog that stays standing long enough for a punkin ball to come and mess up his day..........Shilo sharps rifles come with a group of people who will bend over ackwards for you for the rest of your life with anything that might come up with your rifle so you are not just buying or investing in a rifle buy a family.................