What velocity for deer / hog?

[creophus]

Looking at some load data on Hodgdon's website and I see they have a Trailboss load for the 458 Win Mag. Max load of 19gr gives velocity of 1123fps for a 385gr cast bullet. You guys think this is fast enough for deer or hog?

Keep in mind we have relatively small game here in Florida. The heat keeps them from getting too big.

Muzzle Energy(ft-lbs) = 1,083.78
Muzzle Energy(joules) = 1,460.94

[Reload3006]

wish I could answer for Hogs ... I cant.
Deer its plenty. they really are pretty easy to kill. Though maybe not ethical but more deer have fallen to a 22lr than probably anything else.

[GREENCOUNTYPETE]

like reload3006 said many deer have likely fallen to 22lr but that doesn't make it right

that would put it right around a 45lc from a pistol but a bunch heavier

it should work fine for 50 yards or so then you might want a bit more

i am sure you could load them up from that with another powder but still keep them light say 1400-1500 fps and then the answer would be most definitely yes to 100 yards

as with any boolit your going to want to get these on paper and make sure they don't start tipping or loose accuracy when they go trans sonic

i started thinking about this in muzzle loader terms i push a 395 gr 50 cal to 1400-1500 fps and it really does a number on our larger Wisconsin deer so a 385 gr 45 cal going 1100 if you can accurately hit them should do fine on a small deer

and if your pigs are small , i saw ranch dog had shot one near his house around 70 pounds with his 380 auto and it was a clean kill so then it should be fine for that also.

[birddog]

Well look at this way, you're at the level of most magnum loads with the heavy bullets and you're putting 45 cal holes in em. It will work fine as long as accuracy is there. Poor bullet placement with the 50BMG still means lost game. :holysheep
Charlie

[Larry Gibson]

I concur with the 1400 - 1500 fps also, especially for pigs. For deer the TB load is ok but the trajectory will be more restrictive. Pigs can be nasty if you're on the ground with them. The TB load would probably be ok if you have a repeater and can use it effectively or have a back up hunting partner who is well heeled. Otherwise a little more oomf is better to have. Recoil with the 1400 - 1500 fps is manageable when hunting. Personally if hunting a large pig I use a 500 gr soft cast at 2050 fps. However a 385 - 400 gr soft cast at 1400 fps does the job nicely on most pigs. One last note; shot placement is still critical, as mentioned, regardless of the "power" of the cartridge used.

Larry Gibson

[pmer]

If you run those numbers in a Taylor KO calculator it comes out as 28. 28 puts his load closer to a 454 than a 44 mag.

There are alot of hand gunners that might as well hang up their six guns if ya'll say he's short on power. :bigsmyl2:

[stubshaft]

Under 50 yds you would have no problem killing either animal. I have shot hundreds of hogs with a 45LC pushing a 300gr boolit at 1000fps.

[x101airborne]

Heck yeah.... Run with it. Have you seen the episode of "Sons of Guns" with the Bushmaster? Same level, works great. Have fun!

[41mag]

The last hog I shot with my 454 and the Lee 300gr RF was at 87yds and it rolled her rear over ears literally. I am running them right at 1500fps with that particular load measured at 12'. I also finished off a deer with the same load and even though it was only about 25yds it did an awesome job of it.

Personally I would say if you have the accuracy, hit the woods and be happy. I am running a 200gr Remington SJHP only 1300fps from my 41 mag, and have dropped plenty of hogs out at 50-75yds with it as well as a couple a bit further. You will be packing plenty more horsepower than that load has. My standard load for it is only 20.5grs of 296.

[lead chucker]

Creophus
I shot a couple deer with a lee 310 gr in one of my 44 mag rifles at about 1370 fps they were threw and threw and shot a couple more deer with my 44 mag cvs rifle with Lyman 265 gr hollow point at about 1500 fps if I remember right. I wasn't able to recover the bullets on either. I also shot a black bear with the same hollow point and it went clear through. So to make a long story short I think any thing 12 to 1300 fps and up should do. Also my loads are on the lower end of the load data for 2400 powder. They were the most accurate. Bullet at 1200 fps will kill a deer just as dead as one going 2000 fps. Just my two cents.

[Idaho Sharpshooter]

Speed kills...

[clintsfolly]

Lead kills.... with a little speed! Clint

[1874Sharps]

Hogs have a thick cartilage "shield" in their shoulders that can stop bullets from loads that are not heavy enough. However, the load described of a 385 grain boolit at over 1100 fps seems plenty potent to me. Slow moving heavy, big bore boolits have tremendous killing power. I think I would use a hard cast boolit as opposed to a softer boolit to help with penetration through the "shield", but I am confident you will do just fine with this load, especially considering the smaller size of hogs in your neck of the woods.

[creophus]

It's good to know that this load should have what it takes to put down game. What I load will probably be closer to the 1200-1300fps range.

[MBTcustom]

Just curious, why are you running such a powerful rifle at such peeked speeds? You have a rifle there, not a handgun. Although I do believe that the load described is enough medicine for any deer, and most pigs, I personally wouldn't take the chance on finding a pig with enough sauce to take that hit. At 1400fps you might find a pig that can take it and come after you, but at 1800, I doubt their is an animal on this continent (I assume you are on my continent) that could take that hit and live to skweel about it. Just my 2 cents.

[Dan Cash]

I am using a 350 grain soft cast bullet over 70 grains of FFg black powder in a .45-70. It is probably running 1200 or so. If I shoot it with that load, it will go down hard. If big bears are in the offering, the bullet weight goes up to 405 with same charge and they will go down with authority also.

[creophus]

Just curious, why are you running such a powerful rifle at such peeked speeds? You have a rifle there, not a handgun. Although I do believe that the load described is enough medicine for any deer, and most pigs, I personally wouldn't take the chance on finding a pig with enough sauce to take that hit. At 1400fps you might find a pig that can take it and come after you, but at 1800, I doubt their is an animal on this continent (I assume you are on my continent) that could take that hit and live to skweel about it. Just my 2 cents.

A very good question. This was mainly academic as I tend to use too much gun rather than not enough. I figure these would be fun to play with and wondered if they'd actually be cabable of killing anything.

I am in Florida, so yes, certainly the same continent as you.

[GLynn41]

I just a 250 boar- .41 cal 255 1300FPS through and through- the shield whihc was about .75" thick did not stopp the cast bullet from exiting- works on deer as well you should be good although I---would speed it up at least some

[quilbilly]

With that size boolit my rule of thumb for deer would be a minumum of 850 FPS. Worked for Elmer Keith so it works for me as long as you hit the deer where it counts.

[Old Goat Keeper]

Them piggies aree NOT armor plated. The so called shield is NOT armorplate. Besides a hit to the back of the head will stop them DRT. BTW, if I remember correctly wasn't it the 45-70 405 grain load at under 1300 fps and made of soft lead what killed off milllions fo BIG buffaloes??? Your load at that speed will kill hogs dead!

T-o-m who doesn't believe in those armor plated critters of any kind

[Gelandangan]

Shot and killed many Aussie razor back hogs using
300 whisper using 200gn at about 1000fps.
and 45LC using 230gn at about 800fps.

They die just like any other animal properly shot.
No big deal, never need special velocity.
Them pigs are not mythical godzilla.

[MBTcustom]

Oh yes they are! I heard about one guy that shot one with a 50BMG and the thing charged him. He had to clime a tree and he was up there for 2 days before they sent a helicopter to lift him out of there!
I have heard about every B.S. story that you can imagine when it comes to hogs and this famed "armor plate", (being that I live in razorback central, U.S.A.)
In this part of the country, I will admit that a pig is the most dangerous thing in the woods next to a P.O.d bear, but come on. Every story I hear about pigs with armor plate is not first hand experience.....ever. Its always a friend of a friend that somebody once knew. All this sounds like a fun way to explain away a bad shot on a nuisance critter, and it is fun, better than fish stories, but the fact of the matter is that the piggies are made of bacon and ham and meat, I have never seen anything grown on a hog that would stop 500 grains of supersonic lead! Even if the supposed armor plate acted like a bullet proof vest, you hit him with that load in the right spot (dinner plate sized kill zone) and its gonna be hog, gravy, and chitlins for supper!
I still exercise due caution when going after them but I wonder how much truth there realy is to all these rumors. Right now everybody has to bust them with .22 magnum because you have to use the equipment that is in season at the time (on public land that is) and guys are hitting the woods with squirrel gear to take down these pigs. Makes you wonder.

[creophus]

I developed a load in 45-70 that runs between 1300-1400 fps with that same 385gr bullet. Even though this is in the Trapdoor category it still packed a whallop to my shoulder. Not terrible, but a decent push to it.

We sighted these in all the way out to 100 yards and it should more than kill any pig encountered. I'd know how effective they were, but the only pig seen this weekend was missed.

Goodsteel, I hear what you're saying about pigs being armor plated. Before my first hunt I told people on a forum that I'll be using a 30-06 and a bunch of people told me I'd be undergunned. A 180gr solid *might* work was what I was told.

I decided to go with a 150gr softpoint and shattered both shoulders at about 40 yards away. When it came time to butcher it, I had half a hog's worth of meat. That hog couldn't have fallen any faster as I could see it drop through the scope.

[Wayne Smith]

Please realize you are talking about a caliber and velocity that destroyed the bison herds at typically over 300yds distance! And would shoot through two bison side by side. I really don't think you will have a problem with a pig.

[Wolfer]

I am of the opinion ( based on my personal experience with the 45 colt ) that you will have a hard time recovering a boolit with that load.

[waksupi]

I have never hunted hogs, but have heard the stories for years. I have always suspected the shooter was using hollow points, or fast moving small bore firearms where the bullet was actually failing due to opening up too fast, or disintegrating. Am I on the right track with my thinking?
Cast boolits are going to go through anything short of an elephant.

[DLCTEX]

My family and I have taken many hogs with 22-250 and 223. I think the shield issue is over rated. Maybe some very old large boars could have built up formidable cartilage, but we don't have many that get that old. I killed a sow that was 600+ with one shot behind the shoulder with a 22-250. That said, I am more comfortable with 30 cal. and larger if hunting them on foot rather than from a blind or vehicle.

[pls1911]

Go with it...it's close to a 45-70 buffalo round... it's plenty for pigs at reasonable ranges.
Practice... know your distance and trrajectory...

[arcticbreeze]

Looking at some load data on Hodgdon's website and I see they have a Trailboss load for the 458 Win Mag. Max load of 19gr gives velocity of 1123fps for a 385gr cast bullet. You guys think this is fast enough for deer or hog?

Keep in mind we have relatively small game here in Florida. The heat keeps them from getting too big.

Muzzle Energy(ft-lbs) = 1,083.78
Muzzle Energy(joules) = 1,460.94

Where are you in FL? I am in New Port Richey. I agree with the above advice. I have shot pigs here with a 325gr .44 boolit as slow as 900fps with complete pass through breaking both shoulders on a 100lb boar but that was at 20 yds. With your boolit 1100fps will do the job. But on a 250lb hog (we have plenty that size) I want a little more. Most hogs here are around 100 lbs but last year a 14 year old young man shot a boar over 400lbs on the WMA that I hunt. Shot placement is everything however most shot on hogs where I hunt are not the picture perfect opportunities. Most are moving and in thick cover so you need to snap a quick shot off. I want to know I will hit the vitals at any angle and have 2 holes instead of 1 for blood trailing. At 1400-1500 fps I would have complete confidence at any range you are likely to encounter here.

Marc

[TXGunNut]

My backup gun when chasing piggies is a RBH in 45 Colt stoked with a copy of St Elmer's 255 gr SWC over a BP equivalent load of Universal Clays. Feels good in my hand when headed into the thick or tricky stuff after a (hopefully) dead pig, no doubt it will get the job done if needed. If your 458 load is stable it will git-r-done as well.

[mstarling]

Certainly agree that piggies are not armor plated. However, the .458 Win Mag isn't any fun at abt 1000 fps!

Don't have one, but I do have a .458 AccRel (also known as a .458 AR). Is a .375 RUM case shortened and necked up to .458. Has about 4% more powder capacity than a Lott but fits in a standard length action.

I load it to three levels of intensity. Low = a 435 gr cast flat point gas checked WW boolit sized to .459". I load it with AA5744 to 1800 fps for 3100 fpe. Medium = for plains game is a 425 gr solid shank bonded core bullet made by Rhino in South Africa. Is loaded to 2400 fps and 5400 fpe. Third level is for major dangerous game. Is a 500 gr solid or soft loaded to 2350 fps yielding 6150 pfe.

The mild loads have a decent trajectory, are comfortable to shoot, great for practice and kill the snot out of piggies and deer. I have to recommend AA5744 as a propellent for cast boolits in large chamberings. I suspect that you can achieve something quite close with the .458 Win Mag.

[creophus]

Where are you in FL? I am in New Port Richey. I agree with the above advice. I have shot pigs here with a 325gr .44 boolit as slow as 900fps with complete pass through breaking both shoulders on a 100lb boar but that was at 20 yds. With your boolit 1100fps will do the job. But on a 250lb hog (we have plenty that size) I want a little more. Most hogs here are around 100 lbs but last year a 14 year old young man shot a boar over 400lbs on the WMA that I hunt. Shot placement is everything however most shot on hogs where I hunt are not the picture perfect opportunities. Most are moving and in thick cover so you need to snap a quick shot off. I want to know I will hit the vitals at any angle and have 2 holes instead of 1 for blood trailing. At 1400-1500 fps I would have complete confidence at any range you are likely to encounter here.

Marc
I'm in Tampa.


Certainly agree that piggies are not armor plated. However, the .458 Win Mag isn't any fun at abt 1000 fps!

Don't have one, but I do have a .458 AccRel (also known as a .458 AR). Is a .375 RUM case shortened and necked up to .458. Has about 4% more powder capacity than a Lott but fits in a standard length action.

I load it to three levels of intensity. Low = a 435 gr cast flat point gas checked WW boolit sized to .459". I load it with AA5744 to 1800 fps for 3100 fpe. Medium = for plains game is a 425 gr solid shank bonded core bullet made by Rhino in South Africa. Is loaded to 2400 fps and 5400 fpe. Third level is for major dangerous game. Is a 500 gr solid or soft loaded to 2350 fps yielding 6150 pfe.

The mild loads have a decent trajectory, are comfortable to shoot, great for practice and kill the snot out of piggies and deer. I have to recommend AA5744 as a propellent for cast boolits in large chamberings. I suspect that you can achieve something quite close with the .458 Win Mag.

That's true about the Win Mag at such a low velocity. Sounds like you have a real monster caliber in the 458 AccRel. I'm really tempted to run the same 47.7gr of Varget under a 385gr bullet in the Win Mag.

[mstarling]

Have never taken dangerous game with the .458 AccRel ... but have taken large plains game with it using the medium load.

It dropped a nice Blue Wildebeast in his tracks at 65 yards. Literally knocked him over. Also took a huge, beautiful Eland at 164 yards with a single shot. He bolted at the quartering shot from the rear and nose plowed at abt 20 yards. Was very much relieved as they can go tens of kilometers if only wounded.

Is a beast, but is also very accurate. Shot a clover leaf at sight check in South Africa. Drew a lot of interest from the PH's.

Fine chambering with properly headstamped brass available in the US.

I think you'll be delighted with the faster 385 gr bullet in the .458 Win Mag. Should be a genuine hog stomper.

[RidgerunnerAk]

Using the 385gr cast bullet it won't matter if you push it at 1000fps or 2500fps, or anywhere in between; it will pass through a pig or deer with a side shot and kill just fine either way. What matters is what velocity 'works' for your particular gun, ie: what velocity is the most accurate and puts the bullet where you want it. With little bullets, speed is more necessary to kill... big bullets kill at any reasonable speed, and the slower they are, the less meat they destroy in the process. Forget about speed, go for accuracy.

[creophus]

Using the 385gr cast bullet it won't matter if you push it at 1000fps or 2500fps, or anywhere in between; it will pass through a pig or deer with a side shot and kill just fine either way. What matters is what velocity 'works' for your particular gun, ie: what velocity is the most accurate and puts the bullet where you want it. With little bullets, speed is more necessary to kill... big bullets kill at any reasonable speed, and the slower they are, the less meat they destroy in the process. Forget about speed, go for accuracy.

Thanks for the input! I still haven't connected to a hog with this load. Just haven't been out hunting with it yet. It is accurate in the guns though.

[badbob454]

Hogs have a thick cartilage "shield" in their shoulders that can stop bullets from loads that are not heavy enough. However, the load described of a 385 grain boolit at over 1100 fps seems plenty potent to me. Slow moving heavy, big bore boolits have tremendous killing power. I think I would use a hard cast boolit as opposed to a softer boolit to help with penetration through the "shield", but I am confident you will do just fine with this load, especially considering the smaller size of hogs in your neck of the woods.

a friend told me first hand of shooting a pig in the grissle plate (armor plate in the front area) , he was shooting a 125 gr sp @ 3.000fps or so out of a weatherby 300 magnum he recovered the pig after 3 shots 2 disentigrated when hitting the front plate the other hit further back killing the pig , think it was a 200 pounder i told him too light a bullet at too hi a speed , so i loaded up some 180 gr bullets fmj sp @ 2700 fps if i remember right , much more effective .. im sure
your load in # 1 will be just fine if hit in the sweet spot

[michael30.06]

I believe that most of the "Pigs wear Armor stories come from people shooting flat trajectory light bullets at over 2500fps. The bullets will often distort dramatically on the mud and the gristle shield then fail to penetrate. Just like firing the same round into water, result is bullet fragments and then it lacks the mass to penetrate.
But side on the round works great as it fragments after it is inside the chest cavity and creates a large hydraulic shock wave, very often DRT.
Here in OZ our most hunted dangerous animals are the large feral pigs.
I am currently setting up to fire a 230gn 30 cal cast from my 30.06 at around 1200fps, and I have no doubt in it's ability to stop pigs.
lots of luck and remember to pack the camera when you hunt.
:drinks:

[missionary5155]

Good morning
Consider the old 45-60 black powder round. Propelled a slightly less weight boolit at about that FPS and was used to pop every citter walking our side of the world with success.
So in my thinking you can have good results with good boolit placement.
Pigs & deer have been hunted with alot less for many years.
Mike in Peru

[RidgerunnerAk]

Small fast bullets are wayyyy over rated and ruin a lot of meat. Nothing like a big slow bullet of a caliber that starts with a "4" or higher. Any bullet from a 45 or larger caliber going at 1000fps or greater and which is NOT a hollow point of some kind, will kill anything in North America, including large brown bears. I've had 350gr .45-70 cal hollow points fragment in the roof of a black bears mouth and not penetrate further. Then I've had 400gr heavily jacketed Barnes .45-70 bullets go through 12" of moose skull, scramble his brains and keep right on going. It was like a lightning strike and it was lights out before he even started to fall. There's no armor on a pig that will stop a nice big 45 or 50 cal bullet. I never recover my 400gr cast bullets from a moose unless I hit either the spine or a large leg bone, and that's generally at ranges of 200+ yds. If they'll take down buffalo at 600+ yds they'll take down a pig at just about any range. I shot a moose with a 300gr CB in a .45-90 once and was waiting for it to figure out that it was time to fall down and die when my hunting partner came along and freaked and shot it 4-5 times with a puny .25-06. Ruined the entire neck and didn't really hurt the moose at all; just caused it to panic and run off further. I had to discard 80# of prime grinding meat that was full of blood and bullet fragments. I was not happy. You can have your little boolits...

[quilbilly]

Given my experience hunting deer with a muzzleloader, a boolit that size will work in deer just fine out to whatever the distance is when it reaches 800 fps (that is if you can see that far to aim). Don't know anything about pigs. We have bears instead and it would work fine on our blackies as well.

[357maximum]

I shot and killed a buck at 240 yards with a 180grain cast gascheck WFN slug out of my bull barrelled 15inch 357max match grade machine encore pistol a few years back. It went something like this.


Booom.........hangtime........WAAAP. I easily heard the boolit hit the buck. The buck spun around a bit and died. That boolit was not going very fast at all when it hit him and it worked wonderfully. I found that muchroomed 50/50 boolit just under the hide on the opposite side of the chest from whence it entered.

Before the ethical police jump on me. The shot was taken in the reverse direction that I normally shoot on my private home range with a pistol I am intimately familiar with. I KNEW I could do it as I have done it many many times on 4 and 6inch steel plates shooting the opposite direction.

Medium to Big boolits just putting along flat get the job done. Several million buffalo would agree.

[Harter66]

Plus plus on all comments comparing to the 45-70.

I'm going next week for hogs. Taking a 32Rem,45 Colts and a scattergun. W/in our party will be a243 And a 22-250. 06' 357and 44 mag. The 2 varmint rifles are fed partitions . OO Buck and slugs for the 2 12ga.

[creophus]

Great info everyone. Please keep sharing!