None HP expanding boolits

[CaptRob]

Hey guys Im new and honestly havent even casted my first boolit yet...though i do have every thing waiting on me at home to start (i work in the gulf and stay gone from home for long periods of time). Hopefully i can get the wealth of knowledge ive gained here to show in my soon to be fresh warm shiny boolits!:cbpour:

Anyways, i found a round the really interests me and dont know if any one has tried to duplicate it yet. If not, i want to! and i have an awesome idea to try. Its the Federal Guard Dog ammo.

So before i make a fool of myself with outlandish ideas. i wanted to know if any one has tried it yet.

[runfiverun]

never heard of it.
welcome to the sight.
if it expands,rolls back,penetrates, mimics a nosler partition, or just mushes the nose.
i'd bet a dollar it's been done with lead,and can be read about here.

[CaptRob]

here a pic

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/imagehosting/thum_220294f0d9af026386.jpg

[Jim]

HERE (http://www.federalpremium.com/promotions/press_releases.aspx?id=405&brand=5&year=2011) is Federal's press release.

[dakotashooter2]

Many shooters are making their own soft point bullets by pouring a measured amount of hard alloy into the mold then following it with a softer alloy or pure lead. I don't know if the expansion is as dramatic as those pictured but it does make for an expanding non HP bullet. There should be several discussion on the methods for doing that on this site.

[CaptRob]

Yeah ive read most of those including making synthetic tips... just thought making something more like this would add another notch to the casters belt... im typing up my idea and trying to make a few drawings to explain just wanted to see if anyone has done it first...

[x101airborne]

Welcome to the forum!!!! As far as rifle rounds go, 50/50 purl / clip on WW's work great! Just like a Premium soft point j-word. For most pistol, straight range scrap water quenched has worked well for me. Even my 45 acp expands and since it is soft, it sluggs up the bore nicely. The folks here (save a few) are a group of great people and are always willing to help. Anyone here will return PM's within a day or so usually and are flattered when they are asked to help. I actually am still new and I consider it an honor to be asked. So, whatever you need or have a question about, feel free to post in forum or ask by PM. Either way, WELCOME! WELCOME! WELCOME!

[x101airborne]

As far as your origional post goes, I am not sure that you are going to get lead to hold together like thos jacketed rounds. I think the nose would shear quickly, but I dont KNOW that. Interesting to think about, though!

[williamwaco]

Hey guys Im new and honestly havent even casted my first boolit yet...though i do have every thing waiting on me at home to start (i work in the gulf and stay gone from home for long periods of time). Hopefully i can get the wealth of knowledge ive gained here to show in my soon to be fresh warm shiny boolits!:cbpour:

Anyways, i found a round the really interests me and dont know if any one has tried to duplicate it yet. If not, i want to! and i have an awesome idea to try. Its the Federal Guard Dog ammo.

So before i make a fool of myself with outlandish ideas. i wanted to know if any one has tried it yet.


Caster -

This thinking will get you burned. Those things are NOT warm. They are HOT. They stay hot for a long time. You should have tweezers or gloves to pick them up or move them around for at least five to ten minutes after they are dropped. ( Unless you are water dropping them. )

Don't know about that ammo. I only buy .22LR I make all the rest.

[CaptRob]

Caster -

This thinking will get you burned. Those things are NOT warm. They are HOT. They stay hot for a long time. You should have tweezers or gloves to pick them up or move them around for at least five to ten minutes after they are dropped. ( Unless you are water dropping them. )

Come on i dont look that dumb do i? lol

yeah i know there are alot of other good ways to expand a bullet but i like thinking outside the box. im probably just going to have to do it and then see what people think about it... only problem is i need 45 hp mold that i can modify even if not in good shape. might just have to get a lee then home mod to hp and go from there...

[CaptRob]

Ohh and thanks airborne! my grandfather was in the 101st WWII

[runfiverun]

try 30-1 alloy with a gas check and some glue stick,or airsoft bb in the hollow point.
should mimic that easily enough.
or look at the swaging section for the 40 to 44 boolits.

[Iron Mike Golf]

...If not, i want to! and i have an awesome idea to try. Its the Federal Guard Dog ammo...

I think if you duplicate that design by casting, you will have made a major accomplishment.

I read the press release, studied the photos, and looked at the ballistic numbers.

Let the speculation begin:

EFMJ stands for Expanding Full Metal Jacket. They state the bullet is "filled with an expanding polymer". My guess is the inner surface of the jacket is scored or otherwise made thinner along part of the ogive to control petal formation. The nose is like much thicker than normal, so the petals don't extent all the way forward, holding everything together. the core squishes and the jacket holds it together.

Note the light for caliber weights and high velocities due to a lot of plastic instead of lead alloy.

I think you can duplicate the expansion and weight retention with appropriate alloy.

[MtGun44]

In some idiot places, like NJ, hollowpoints are ILLEGAL. What a laugh. Fools don't want to
hurt the bad guys.

In any case, for the folks living in that place, this is the best that they can do. Smart
engineering to get around stupid, lowlife politicians.

Bill

[CaptRob]

yeah iron mike, i was hoping to accomplish it without fmj (might not be as pretty)...i beleive with the right alloy (like you said) and a specific shaped polymer encapsulated in it it could work ...

MtGun44, its only illegal to buy/sell in those states not cast right?

[Wayne Smith]

yeah iron mike, i was hoping to accomplish it without fmj (might not be as pretty)...i beleive with the right alloy (like you said) and a specific shaped polymer encapsulated in it it could work ...

MtGun44, its only illegal to buy/sell in those states not cast right?

Humm, I don't think you will successfully "encapsulate" polymer in molten lead. I'd guess you would need to combine some cast HP boolits and a nose swaging operation together to get that effect.

[youngda9]

Why not just ust a HP bullet of the correct hardness at the correct velocity range for that hardness that has been proven to work for many many years?

Read this: http://www.lasc.us/FryxellCastHollowPoints.htm

357 158gr LSWC-HP 94 lead 4 tin & 2 antimony 10.5-11 BHN
Here`s what it does at 1250fps in a wet sand test… 0.64" or 1.78X expansion

http://img545.imageshack.us/img545/9060/24573211.png (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/545/24573211.png/)

[MtGun44]

I think mere possession of a HP loaded round is a crime, but I stay away from NJ
as much as I possibly can, so I could be wrong.

Bill

[CaptRob]

haha Bill i have family in NJ! and i feel the same way!

for both swaging and hp you definitely wont be able to hold the nose together like the guard dog but there maybe a possibility to do it with the right hardness alloy (even if its not FMJ)

And as far why id like to try this and not just us HP, is simple because it hasnt been tried yet ( by casters that is). also, for those people that want to cast a hp boolit but live in NJ.... lol
And for guns that have trouble feeding HP rounds

Wayne, i think you could encapsulate the polymer if the lead solidifies just fast enough to hold it in place before it melts. if it does melt in its new hot lead capsule it will just reharden back to orignal shape when the entire boolit cools...

PS does anyone know anyone that has a crappy old HP mold they like to donate for testing...preferable in 452, so if i was able to make one i could try it out

[runfiverun]

i have a bt-sniper swage set, but with the older hand made notcher which preprograms the 40 case to peel back much like shown.
i bond the alloy to the jacket.
and by changing the alloy, i can control the speed with which it opens.
i can make it into either a hollow or flat point.
the same thing can be done to cast boollts, and by swaging up other calibers a gas check can be added [i use a 245 gr 38-55 boolit and a 44 cal gas check]
brian makes a 45 version also.

[CaptRob]

That's definitely good to know!

[ChuckS1]

I guess I'm old school. If you want a .45 caliber-sized whole, start with a M1911A1! A .38 HP may not expand, but a .45 ACP will never shrink...

[beagle]

Interesting discussion here. I've been tinkering with a project this winter and although, it's using HP cast bullets, no reason it wouldn't work on a solid cast or for that matter on a RFN jacketed with the proper indexing bushing.

I've had a machinist make a TP that's threaded through the middle for a 10-32 screw. I turn the tip of this to match the HP cavity and this serves to index the bullet nose during the operation.

The face of the TP can be any diameter but I chose .425" as I wanted to use it on a variety of .44 and .45 designs. The face starts off flat and I had my machinist to mill out unused portions and leave six 1/16" teeth spaced equidistant around the TP face.

In use, I adjust the dept of the bullet in the sizing die and leave about 1/16" clearance between the TP and the bullet nose to allow me to bump it.

This operation produces a perfectly round cavity with six slots cut in the cavity wall much like the pictures in the first part of this thread.

I'be used this on a variety of .44 bullets and .45 ACP bullets with good results. Also a variety of .38/357 and 9mm bullets.

Some distortion of the outside of the nose results but this is ironed back into place during bullet seating at loading time and produce really nice looking .45 ACP rounds using a 452374HP.

9mm loads have been restricted so far to the Lyman 358480HP which I use in my convertible Ruger Blackhawk.

Weather has precluded any expansion testing but initial shooting results with the 9mm looks favorable.

This concept was thought up to enhance expansion on 9mm, .38 Special and .45 ACP cast HP bullets.

No reason it couldn't be used on solids by making a guide bushing to center the nose. These cuts or fractures in the nose shoud work well and allow enhanced expansion....especially on the weaker calibers. The .44s are usually launched at hig enough speeds to perform well without this assistance.

I'd like to see Erik or one of the machinist gurus make these for the hobby as long as they credit me with the concept which I call a "shark's tooth top punch". /beagle

[thehouseproduct]

Beagle, don't tease us like that without posting pictures.

[Ready on the Right]

Wow Beagle, thinking on the edge again. Great idea. I've done some tinkering with the radial cuts using a bit more crude technology though. Two strips of single edge razor blades with relief cuts allowing them to be assembled at right angles, inserted into the vane slots of an aluminum dart body with enough of the tail section protruding to center in the HP cavity. Light hammer tap, rotate 45 degrees and light tap again produces eight radial cuts. Limited testing indicates that it has definite possibilities. I'd buy TP's of your design. Please keep us informed on your progress on that.

[mroliver77]

CaptRob,
Have you seen the Mihec HP molds with the pentagon HP pin? Very awesome results!

If you go to the swagging forum here on Cast Boolits the are some great ideas with some similar to what you want. Enough reading to keep you occupied and out of trouble for some time.

Buckshot from this forum will HP most moulds for a reasonable fee.

30-1 lead-tin alloy with a flat nose boolit at 1400-1500fps looks like this going into a pigs ribcage lung area. This is not hitting anything very solid. Ranch Dog boolit sized .380" ended up .760"ish and lost very little weight!
http://i374.photobucket.com/albums/oo189/mroliver77/DSC00174.jpg

[CaptRob]

Beagle, thanks for the info definitely need to see so pics to get the full concept though

Ready, i had that idea in mind after the impregnating the polymer (if possible), and us two razor at 45*. so when you force the boolit on them it leaves the nose intact. just two relief cuts down the sides and then turn and repeat for the number of reliefs youd need.

[CaptRob]

mroliver77, yeah ive seen those but i think any hp with a pin will work for what im up against

i think if you use a pin with a flat top, like you would if you were using a hp mold to make solid flat nose boolits. drill a small hole just in the end of the pin large enough to insert a thin piece of solder. place a small piece of solder in the hole so that it sticks out about 1/4". take a "plug" of polymer in the size of say 1/8" by 1/4"rod . push it on the the end of the solder leaving about an 1/8" gap of exposed solder. place in hp mold and fill. hopefully the lead will surround the "plug" and harden before the polymer starts to melt. like i said before even if the polymer does melt. the solidified lead around it will hold it in place and together until they both cool solid. when released you should have a boolit with a piece of solder sticking out the nose. cut it off with a razor. then youd have a solid boolit with just a dot on the nose and an encapsulated plug of polymer.

if you use a "plug" in the shape of a star, i believe you could produce something similar to the guard dog ammo. and if you had to use the the relief cutting technique, that would (i believe ) leave you with something almost identical without the jacket.

(excuse my grammar, not the best typist hope you can follow along)

[para45lda]

+1 on what runfiverun said. I think you could come close swaging to a flat point with a polymer bead encapsulated inside.

Welcome and let us know what you come up with

Wes