25-20 casting

[Steelbanger]

Hi folks, I'm new to this forum and have a question. Has anyone used the RCBS Cowboy mould for the 25-20 in a rifle? This is the plain base 85 gr.(I think) bullet? I'd be interested in your powder choices, velocities, and groups with this bullet.

Thanks,
Steelbanger

[9.3X62AL]

Welcome to the board, Steelbanger.

Lately I have been involved in some load testing with the 25-20 in a Marlin 1894CL. I began with the RCBS plain base design you mention, these from a fellow board member. My impression at that time was that their work with the powders I call The Usual Suspects in this caliber (2400, IMR 4227, SR 4759) wasn't real impressive. I got a couple more molds (Lyman #257420 and #257312) and--frankly--things haven't improved a whole lot using these powders and a pretty good range of others from Unique to RL-7.

This is more than mildly aggravating, since the little rifle will drive tacks with the Speer 75 grain flatnose and 12.0 x 4198. The Lyman boolits do decent work in a Savage 99 in 250 Savage, too. So, I don't think the BOOLIT or the RIFLE is at fault here. I spoke with Felix a few evenings back, and he opined that no powder available today fits into the "25-20 with cast boolits" niche.

I have a few tweaks left to try out--neck-sized cases with the 25 ACP sizer that correspond to the LONG and WIDE chamber in the Marlin better than F/L or partial-F/L sized cases. I'm not going to throw in the towel just yet, but as time goes on I am more and more convinced that the 25-20 needs to be treated the same way I treat my 22 centerfires--buy bullets for it instead of making them.

[Char-Gar]

I have been loading for the 25-20 for over 40 years. I use the Lyman 257312 which cast a gas check bullet that weighs 90 grains (No. 2 alloy). I use 9/4227 which give me 1.6K fps and great accuracy. That is probably just over the line for plain base bullets. I have over 100 molds for rifle calibers and there is onlyl one plain base bullet in the fleet. I consider the cost of a gas check to be of no importance and you get have far more versatility with the bullet.

[felix]

Charger, yeah, there is always an oasis somewhere. What is the twist of that 40 year old gun? I bet 14. Describe, if you will please, your primer and initiating friction character, throat and case tension, for your boolit that shoots so well. ... felix

[beagle]

The 25-85-CS RCBS is marginal in stabilization in a 1-14 twist. It's shorter than the 257312 by a small margin.

The modification below helps in the stability and accuracy with this bullet.

I fooled with it some time back and used a .243" sizing die to size the base band to .243". Then, I used a 6.5mm GC on the base and sized to .259".

This rig shoots well in the .25-20 as well as the .257 Roberts.

Lil Gun powder works really well in the .25-20 also./beagle

[Leftoverdj]

http://www.picturedot.com/FetchImageJPG.asp?ImageType=P&ImageFormat=L&ImageID=134195

[9.3X62AL]

I'd love to see results like those from my 94CL, DJ. There have been a couple like that, but with the rest of the groups behaving otherwise--I view them as accidents.

[35remington]

Part of the reason I enjoy this board so much is that it is one of the damn few places where users of the .25-20 congregate.

I've shot the RCBS bullet pretty extensively, and in a lot of particulars my experience is like Deputy Al's. The .25-20 can be very finicky when you are saddled with the kind of chamber and throat dimensions we have. If you are fortunate enough to have a properly cut chamber I think it can be as accurate as any other round, and the long neck makes it a natural for most cast bullets.

The things I needed to do to make my Contender carbine shoot would fill an encyclopedia. It's really been an education.

Some favorite loads, which shoot well with the RCBS bullet-well being 1 inch or less at fifty yards:

6.0/4759 with dacron to base of bullet. Most accurate load, but 4759 meters through my measures poorly, forcing me to weigh the charges. This gets around 1330 fps in my 22 inch barrel.

5.5/2400 also with dacron. Meters well through the measure, and is my best combination of accuracy and loading convenience. I hate weighing charges. 1300 fps. Accuracy just behind 4759.

3.3/W231 and dacron, 1140 fps. A bit less accurate than the preceding two loads, but plenty accurate for all my small game shooting at this velocity. I like the quiet report, which is louder than the long rifle but quite a bit less noisy than the .22 magnum.

Due to wide velocity swings from partially filled cases I use dacron for darn near everything. It helps a lot.

When using the light charges of fast burning powder with dacron, the RCBS bullet will bump up when cast of unhardened wheelweights, eliminating the bottom two lube grooves if they are not filled with lubricant. Sometimes I get lazy and tumble lube them rather than filling the grooves since I like the as cast diameter of .260" when made from wheelweights and a little tin. To prevent this upset I heat treat them in the oven. The deep lubricant grooves are the reason the bullets slug up when they are not filled, as I think this bullet was designed to carry large amounts of lube to make it better suited for black powder loads.

The RCBS bullet is a fantastic game bullet, and it's been my primary small game load used with W231 for the last four years. Even at the low speed of 1100 fps, it is a sure killer, even when the bullet did not land exactly where I wanted. I like the big flat nose it has.

Fastest speed I obtained with reasonable accuracy was around 1500 fps or so using 4198, hardened wheelweights and dacron. A little too noisy for me, but I am sure it would kill small game well.

If you don't mind me putting in a plug for Emmett's picture, I'll say that I was one of the guys that bought both a plainbase and gascheck version of the bullet he shot that group with, and I have been obtaining very good results as well, considering the finicky Contender that I have. It is at least as accurate as the RCBS bullet, although having a smaller meplat. The gascheck version has done very well at over 1900 fps, and I have shot 1.5" five shot hundred yard groups with it, which is fantastic for my Contender. The plainbase version also shoots well with 2400 and 4759, but I'm having a little trouble with the faster powders. I want to develop a just subsonic (1080 fps) small game load with the plainbase bullet, but no luck so far. To my surprise, W231 didn't do well at 1150-1250 fps, but maybe I need to back off the throttle a little more. Emmett, do you have any suggestions in that regard? I'm going to the range again Saturday with a few other pistol/shotgun powders-Red Dot, Unique, 700X, Clays, etc. I'm throwing in Titegroup as well, but getting good lead bullet groups with that powder would come as a surprise.

One of these days I might pester Beagle to make me a hollowpoint version of the RCBS bullet, if he would be so kind. The bullets he sent me (257312's) were an eye opener regarding the performance of hollowpointed lead bullets. I didn't know that they worked at low velocities that well.

Beagle, would you list your Lil'Gun charge weights? I've been using it in the 22 K-Hornet and it's time to try it in the .25-20.

[Leftoverdj]

Al, that group may be a little better than average, but I would expect to get four of any group in that size with the fifth opening it up a quarter or a half inch more. I have also gotten the occasional one holer with five into 3/8" or so.

.35 Rem, the load in the picture is subsonic. If memory serves, it's about 1040 fps. Someone was asking about Johnson's Wax. In that load, Johnson's gives me a little better average accuracy than liquid alox. Difference ain't much but it's there. It does take the barrel about ten shots to settle down after a lube switch.

[35remington]

I'll give the Johnson's a try with the plainbase. I've used it with the Lee 148 grain WC in my .38 snubbie but nowhere else. The time is now for some rifle usage, and it does avoid picking up grit, which I can't say about liquid alox.

[9.3X62AL]

The 25-20 in the rifle reminds me of my struggles with the 32-20 in the revolver--lots of work before getting to The Promised Land. I'll put in the hours, mostly because I won't allow metal castings to lose this battle with their red-coated counterparts.

[waksupi]

We'll have you shooting the .25 pocket rocket pistols in no time!

[Leftoverdj]

Al, the Savage 23 has never been anything but good to me. It's the only .25-20 I have ever worked with, and almost anything I have stuffed it with has given 50 yard minute of squirrel head groups or better. I've been keeping my eye open for a Marlin for years, but availability and finances have never coincided.

The one I really regret letting get away was one of the short run of Kimber single shot bolts in .25-20. They'll never be in my price range again.

[DOUBLEJK]

Deputy Al here's a 25-20 mold fer ya's.....;-)

Could sure try a bunch of em in short order anyways....

http://www.auctionarms.com/search/displayitem.cfm?itemnum=6770770

[Char-Gar]

Felix...I don't know about all that fancy stuff..I cast the bullet, size them .258, load them with Lyman dies in Winchester cases. The primers are Winchester small rifle. I have two rifles, a Winchester 92 half magazine rifle and a Remington 25 pump. Both wear receiver sights. Both have perfect shiny bores. The Winchester will give 2 MOA accuracy at 100 yards and the Remington only about .5 MOA larger. I have not spent much time punching paper with these.

In the past, I used linotype metal because it helped those little bullets fill out, but the last batch of 1K was out of No. 2 and they seem to do just fine. I picked up a 4 hole mold on Ebay about 6 years ago.

At ranges not over 100 yards, the load is death on jack rabbits, coyotes and javalina.

The Winchester has a 1-14 twist and I "assume" the Remington is the same.

Back in the mid-60's John Wooters wrote an article in an issue of Handloader Magazine entitled "Eulogy For A Cartridge". The subject cartridge was the 25-20 WCF. His load was 257312/9/4227. I adopted that load and have used it every since. It has worked so well, I have never felt the need to experiment.

[Steelbanger]

First, thanks for the replies. Looks like I'm in for a learning experience with my new 25-20.

I'm trying to avoid getting a new mould and having it prove unsatisfactory, as I have done too many times in the past. There just doesn't seem to be many current production 25-20 moulds available, at least from what little searching I have done.

Being a newcomer, I hope the next statement doesn't get me thrown out of here. I'm probably going to start with the Remington bulk 86 gr. jacketed bullet although eveything written about this cartridge & jacketed bullets says the 75 gr. Speer is the best. By next winter I should have some kind of mould ready for my 25-20 but it won't be that 5 pound 9-cavity mentioned somewhere above!

[felix]

Thanks, Charger! It appears that load is an oasis load, being one I would never think of without a suggestion or two. A load that shoots well in several off-the-shelf guns is indeed a treasure. ... felix

[sundog]

Before putting a liner in my Grandpa's Mdl 92 I used alot of 4198 with jacketed rounds. Worked purdy durn good. For cast cowboy loads, 5 gr of Unique works good. But, I'll have to agree with Charger that 4227 is dandy! In fact, 4227 is such a good cast boolit powder I buy it in 8 pounders. Since the liner was put in I have not shot it much -- must be time to get it out. sundog

[9.3X62AL]

Hmmmm......lots of votes for that 9.0 x 4227 load here, and John Wooters was no slouch. Gotta try that stuff, it appears. I had just enough left to do about 20 rounds initially with the #257420, and it was just OK results-wise.

DoubleJK--my 25-20's aren't BELT-FED.