Long Range Fast Twist Flintlock

[Good Cheer]

Yep, I've been planning a long range flintlock. How long? Long time. How long a range? Well, as far as I can.
Got the ladder tang sight (great shape 1970's vintage). Got the L&R lock and Renegade stock for the platform to build on. Still cogitating the caliber and barrel length, looking at .45, .47 and .50. I'm leaning towards .47. But I haven't eliminated .54 yet either. There are trade offs either way.
Any yall have experiences to relate with conicals in flintlocks?

[Nobade]

Considering how fast bullet firing caplocks wear out nipples, with their mostly sealed ignition, I don't think a flintlock like that would be a good idea. You'll have a devil of a time keeping vent liners from burning out.

[docone31]

Look up Chunk Gun.
They are specialty rifles for long range.

[skullmount]

for what its worth........ LOTS of moulds in 45 caliber off the shelf

[451 Pete]

Good Cheer,
A couple of thoughts and considerations for you. A round ball weigh's a whole lot less than a conical or a bullet and develops a lot less pressure within the barrel in firing. In a .45 cal. long range muzzle loading rifle the bullet can weigh upwards of 500 grains or about 4 times that of a round ball of the same cal. and normally these are driven by powder charges of upwards of 70 grains. ( Think 45-70 in a cartridge rifle. ) Most long range muzzle loaders are constructed using a patent breech to hold this additional pressure that is developed. ( Even a drum and nipple in a percussion rifle I would question the wisdom and safety of using. ) Should your touch hole ( or a drum and nipple ) let loose or blow out you could seriously injure yourself or a shooter next to you.

How much pressure does it develop? You might think of it this way. I have had a brand new steel musket nipple burn out in as little as 20 shots driving the hammer on a musket lock back to half cock. I have also seen a lock totally destroyed by a hammer being driven back past the full cock. ( Luckily the fellow this happended to was not injured. ) There is that much pressure. Also as a nipple erodes ( or a touch hole ) by even a very small amount the accuracy at any of the longer range's suffers. This is the main reason that most long range rifles, especially if shot any amount, are eventually fitted with a platinum lined nipple. With an open touch hole into the barrel the blow back out of the touch hole will be substantial, to say the least.

The Chunk Guns Docone mentioned are normally only shot to 60 yds. with a round ball ( Docone may have ment a slug gun, which again uses a percussion, or a sealed ignition.) From your post I think what you are intending on shooting is something a lot further out than 60 yds. If these are your thoughts and your intent then why not just use the Renegade stock ( a good flat shotgun style butt to take up some of the recoil ) with a good percussion lock and a TC patent breech? I think that in going in this direction you will end up with something you wil be a lot happier with, and that also would be a lot safer and much more enjoyable to take out and shoot.

Just my thoughts ...... Pete

[boommer]

45 cal. 1-18 twist .450 bore percussion. 32"barrel that's what I'm going with. The action I think is going to be a Allen box lock style even though I'D like it in a hawken style. This is the front stuffer I going to build ,been wanting to do for a few years work been slow. I have the barrel so that's a start.

[wgr]

people shoot 500+ grain bullets in muzzle loader,s all the time. like the whitworth an others. with out safety issues. i have shot 500 grain bullets in my hawken.

[Good Cheer]

Considering how fast bullet firing caplocks wear out nipples, with their mostly sealed ignition, I don't think a flintlock like that would be a good idea. You'll have a devil of a time keeping vent liners from burning out.

I think you are correct about rapid cutting of the vent liner orifice by the jet of gas and particulates. What I do not know is how critical that may be to accuracy in a flintlock. The straight flash hole on a flinter is already going to be huge compared to the hole in a horribly worn nipple. Don't know how much difference it will make and one way or tother overcoming vertical stringing is going to figure prominently in load development.

[Good Cheer]

Good Cheer,
A couple of thoughts and considerations for you. A round ball weigh's a whole lot less than a conical or a bullet and develops a lot less pressure within the barrel in firing. In a .45 cal. long range muzzle loading rifle the bullet can weigh upwards of 500 grains or about 4 times that of a round ball of the same cal. and normally these are driven by powder charges of upwards of 70 grains. ( Think 45-70 in a cartridge rifle. ) Most long range muzzle loaders are constructed using a patent breech to hold this additional pressure that is developed. ( Even a drum and nipple in a percussion rifle I would question the wisdom and safety of using. ) Should your touch hole ( or a drum and nipple ) let loose or blow out you could seriously injure yourself or a shooter next to you.

How much pressure does it develop? You might think of it this way. I have had a brand new steel musket nipple burn out in as little as 20 shots driving the hammer on a musket lock back to half cock. I have also seen a lock totally destroyed by a hammer being driven back past the full cock. ( Luckily the fellow this happended to was not injured. ) There is that much pressure. Also as a nipple erodes ( or a touch hole ) by even a very small amount the accuracy at any of the longer range's suffers. This is the main reason that most long range rifles, especially if shot any amount, are eventually fitted with a platinum lined nipple. With an open touch hole into the barrel the blow back out of the touch hole will be substantial, to say the least.

The Chunk Guns Docone mentioned are normally only shot to 60 yds. with a round ball ( Docone may have ment a slug gun, which again uses a percussion, or a sealed ignition.) From your post I think what you are intending on shooting is something a lot further out than 60 yds. If these are your thoughts and your intent then why not just use the Renegade stock ( a good flat shotgun style butt to take up some of the recoil ) with a good percussion lock and a TC patent breech? I think that in going in this direction you will end up with something you wil be a lot happier with, and that also would be a lot safer and much more enjoyable to take out and shoot.

Just my thoughts ...... Pete

Got a nice .458 bore made that way with a TC New Englander. Recently drilled and tapped it for a tang peep. Won't bother with loading 45-70's any more.

The plan for the flinter is pretty much the same as a factory TC .50 or .54 barrel except I want to have a shallow groove barrel with a twist faster than the standard 48" marketed by TC in their side lock rifles for use with maxies and maxi-hunters.

[451 Pete]

Good Cheer,
Ok, I got into my books this a.m. In the Lyman " Black Powder Handbook and Loading Manual" 2nd. ed. a .45 cal. round ball weighing 128 grains being driven by 70 grains of 2fg. powder from a 1-48 barrel twist gives pressure as measured at 9,300 psi. The same barrel twist , same type powder and the same weight of powder charge driving a 325 grain Buffalo Conical bullet gives the listed pressure at 18,300 psi.

Changing powder type or granulation to something hotter or finer or the increasing the rate of twist to something faster will cause these pressure figures to increase. This may be something for you to consider.

Pete

[Good Cheer]

It is. I have to take the TC and Lyman figures to heart in planning the project.
However, as you noted, even with the same powder charge and projectile, a faster twist will increase the strain absorbed by the barrel. In a faster twist barrel I would not try to duplicate the max loadings recommended by TC.
I'm still wondering how much vertical dispersion folks may have experienced when shooting TC maxiball and maxihunter conicals in their flintlock Renegade and Hawken rifles.
The TC manual I have shows side lock rifles maximum loads as:
45 cal, max 320 grain bullet and 100 grains FFg, 1612FPS.
50 cal, max 470 grain bullet and 100 grains FFg, 1416FPS.
54 cal, max 540 grain bullet and 120 grains FFg, 1396FPS.
58 cal, max 560 grain bullet and 120 grains FFg, 1331FPS.
Those are some serious loads for whacking critters, not paper. Don't think I care to go that hot. Don't expect to ever run 100 grains of powder through my New Englander.

[451 Pete]

Good Cheer,
My largest concern is first and most importantly safety. As long as what you are doing is within limits that have been tested and proved as being safe I see no problem's in what you are planning. Any changes at all from loads tested as being safe can lead to the road to disaster. Just one example. In your book TC lists the .45 cal 320 grain bullet as safe with a max load of 100 grains of 2fg.
According to the Lyman book with Goex 2fg a 100 gr. load and a 325 gr. bullet is listed at 21,600 psi, the old Elephant in the same volume charge of 2fg and bullet (Elephant has been out of production for 5 or 6 years now ) is 22,100 but if you use Pyrodex RS the 100 gr. by volume charge and this same bullet the pressure go's all the way up to 31,500 psi. That might make the flash hole look like the after burner of a fighter jet. I don't know. The funny thing is that Pyrodex is supposed to be a per volume black powder substitute, I don't use it , but it kind of makes me wonder.

Lyman does not list in this book what the difference the change in twist rate makes in a .45 but they do for a .50. Changing from a 1-48 to a 1-24 twist and keeping everything else the same with a 100 grain charge shows an increase in pressure of about 6000 psi.


Take care .... Pete

[calaloo]

I have a Whitworth rifle and have had the hammer "half Cocked" after less than 20 rounds. I have a handfull of nipples in my Whitworth kit but don't need them now because I bought a platinum lined nipple. When I got my Gibbs the first thing I did was screw in a platinum lined nipple. Problem solved. Wonder if you can get a platinum lined vent?

[ripshod]

I shoot heavy conicals in my Green Mt Renegade and Hawkins fast twist barrels.These are flintlock barrels.I generally load 460 to 500 grainers.I had a friend drill and cone a bunch of Fastenal stainless set screws.I do not shoot massive powder charges.Somewhere between 70 and 80 grains of 3F Swiss.I do not shoot a lot but I think that after 20 rounds there may be some diameter enlargement but not enough to warrant a vent change.I am shooting .50cal.rip

[Good Cheer]

That's an excellent idea on the set screws. I was thinking about tubing and the set screws surely never occurred to me.

[ripshod]

The screws that I bought had a very deep allen head hole in them.My friend drilled 1/16 through them and coned the backside with a starter center drill with the tip removed as it would have drilled a .090 hole.These screws with Rich Pierce flints is the cat's backside.rip

[ResearchPress]

people shoot 500+ grain bullets in muzzle loader,s all the time. like the whitworth an others. with out safety issues.
Breech plugs (http://www.researchpress.co.uk/shooting/lrml/gunsmithing/breechplug.htm) on Whitworths and similar match rifles are designed for the purpose. Many others are not.



David

[Good Cheer]

Breech plugs (http://www.researchpress.co.uk/shooting/lrml/gunsmithing/breechplug.htm) on Whitworths and similar match rifles are designed for the purpose. Many others are not.



David

The drum and nipple design worries. I haven't owned one now since the mid-eighties. Actually never had a failure except a nipple flying away somewhere but every time I look at one I think about how many times can you strike a threaded drum until it fractures from the notch at the thread root. For shooting conicals in cap locks I mostly stay with the proven and relatively inexpensive technology of Thompson Center Renegade and Hawken side lock rifles.

[Plastikosmd]

Guy I bought one of my slug guns off of won the friendship match one year with a flint. He used a solid/drilled platinum liner for the touch hole. Caliber was around 50 so that would be a 600+ grain slug as my .485 slug is 630 grains

[IndySteve]

The TC manual I have shows side lock rifles maximum loads as:
45 cal, max 320 grain bullet and 100 grains FFg, 1612FPS.
50 cal, max 470 grain bullet and 100 grains FFg, 1416FPS.
54 cal, max 540 grain bullet and 120 grains FFg, 1396FPS.58 cal, max 560 grain bullet and 120 grains FFg, 1331FPS.
Those are some serious loads for whacking critters, not paper. Don't think I care to go that hot. Don't expect to ever run 100 grains of powder through my New Englander.

Holy hanna!

I bought up a bunch of 540 gr Maxi Hunters when they discontinued them and are my bullet of choice in my 54 Renegade. 90 grains of FFg will rock your socks and floor anything in front of the muzzle.

I cannot IMAGINE 120 grains!!!!!! I had thought 120 was max for a round ball.

God Bless

[johnson1942]

now your talking. i just put a douglas 1 inch diam round barrel 35 and 1/2 inches long on my precussion renagade. .50 top of lands and .458 on bottom. 1-18 twist. it took 3 shots to zero it in. it shoot any thing form 450 grain to 660 grains like a house a fire. i use 110 grains of 2f or 110 grains og cartridge powder behind the bullet. when i said .50 top of lands i ment .450.i shoot .440 or .441 hollow base paper patch bullets pure lead. 2 wraps of number nine all wood fiber paper put on dry. please give us all a complete write up when your done wiht it. it should shoot to 1000 yards and beat the bpcrifles. hace fun johnson1942

[johnson1942]

sorry for the type o/s i was pushed to get off the computer and meet a schedule.

[Good Cheer]

I'm working with a flinter TC Renegade now rebored to .58. Have a RCBS minie mold with the as-cast diameter enlarged so when I size the minie and leave the front end big it loads like a maxi. Still wringing it out to see how well it can work. Heavy charges can really let you know you done something.

[idahoron]

now your talking. i just put a douglas 1 inch diam round barrel 35 and 1/2 inches long on my precussion renagade. .50 top of lands and .458 on bottom. 1-18 twist. it took 3 shots to zero it in. it shoot any thing form 450 grain to 660 grains like a house a fire. i use 110 grains of 2f or 110 grains og cartridge powder behind the bullet. when i said .50 top of lands i ment .450.i shoot .440 or .441 hollow base paper patch bullets pure lead. 2 wraps of number nine all wood fiber paper put on dry. please give us all a complete write up when your done wiht it. it should shoot to 1000 yards and beat the bpcrifles. hace fun johnson1942


I am wondering if I could talk you out of a couple sheets of that wood fiber paper. I have about 800 sheet of the cotton so I am probably good. But I would like to test it. Ron

[johnson1942]

to idahoron: yes ill send some. go to pineridgeblackpowder.com and get my email and email me your address and i will send it. i find the 25 percent cotton works best if you put it on wet but the 100 percent wood fiber is much stronger than the cotton when putting on dry. it doesnt tear when you twist the ends. i learned dry patching from you and i like the results much better. i think the patch comes off the bullet easier commeing out of the muzzle. johnson1942

[idahoron]

to idahoron: yes ill send some. go to pineridgeblackpowder.com and get my email and email me your address and i will send it. i find the 25 percent cotton works best if you put it on wet but the 100 percent wood fiber is much stronger than the cotton when putting on dry. it doesnt tear when you twist the ends. i learned dry patching from you and i like the results much better. i think the patch comes off the bullet easier commeing out of the muzzle. johnson1942

Thanks, I have been wondering about the wood fiber. I didn't want to buy a ream just to test. Thanks again. Ron

[idahoron]

to idahoron: yes ill send some. go to pineridgeblackpowder.com and get my email and email me your address and i will send it. i find the 25 percent cotton works best if you put it on wet but the 100 percent wood fiber is much stronger than the cotton when putting on dry. it doesnt tear when you twist the ends. i learned dry patching from you and i like the results much better. i think the patch comes off the bullet easier commeing out of the muzzle. johnson1942


I sent an email to you from you site. Thanks Ron