Down Range Data

[MT Trapper]

Down Range Data, A guide to extreme long range shooting with your "Buffalo Rifle".
By: William T. Falin, Jr

Has anybody read this book? Was wondering if it was worth ordering.

Trapper

[Chill Wills]

I was given a pre-printing copy to review. It is OK but not filled with the stuff hoped for. He has a somewhat (worked for Accurate powder) smokless view of things. A nice guy. No experience with current top longrange BP and Creedmoor match loading and shooting.
Interesting read. I have many books that deviate from what I think I know at this time.
Go for it and see what you think.

I hope this helps you

[Thunder50/90]

Down Range Data, A guide to extreme long range shooting with your "Buffalo Rifle".
By: William T. Falin, Jr

Has anybody read this book? Was wondering if it was worth ordering.

Trapper

I just got the book the other day from Buffalo Arms Co. I think there is lots of good info. but am not a extreme long range shooter, but looking forward to it....( one mile shoot )

[Kenny Wasserburger]

A copy of the book was circulated at Raton a few years ago by Jim Kidwell, Mike sums it up quite well, his opinion Falin's, is pretty low on BP shooters. He advances theories based on his smokless usage, he has little to no experience with BP or it's accuracy at ranges of up to a mile. I in my opinion was not impressed with the book. I have an extensive libarary on the subject, even Tub's stuff and Nancy Tompkins's book, she personally autographed mine, I was shooting with her in 1993 at Camp Perry Ohio, when she won the Wimbledon Cup. Falin's book is not in my collection.

Mike Rix, may recall Nancy coming into the club house at Phoenix a few years back? And visiting with me, after the America's Cup.

KW

[Thunder50/90]

Mr. Kenny thank you for your input on the book. which book on range up to a mile are good to read.

[Kenny Wasserburger]

For BP? There are none really. It is a pretty new concept for our time. David Tubb has a book on it, the skill needed to build good ammo and read conditions comes with shooting, a lot! I was flat out told it could not be done, with any sort of accuracy by experts. They are wrong. It takes a PP round of very best quality, and range time shows you have to be pushing 1350+ fps to have any sort of accuracy. In a 50 you need a 700 plus grs bullet, a 530 plus grs for a 45.

KW

[Chill Wills]

Mike Rix, may recall Nancy coming into the club house at Phoenix a few years back? And visiting with me, after the America's Cup.
KW

I do remember that. I did not recognize her and someone pointed out she was in the building talking with you.

How did you draw her as a partner years ago anyway? That must have been something to be on the line with her and watch and learn.

I hope you are on the mend! Mr Jackson and I are headed for the American Creedmoor Cup a week from today in his new truck. A fine ride! We will miss seeing you there. You have not missed many.

A shame so few PP shooters compete. Ten years ago when I started the match I offered the special Paper Patch award hoping it would spark some more PP entries. Lots of Internet talk of shooting PP and long-range shooting for that mater, but few come out to show off their stuff. I wish it were different.
Well...... you and Brent have stuck it out and are still with it! I have an itch to get out my DanT PP '90 rifle this year and re-attack the accuracy issues I was having. We will see how the time available goes for load testing ....

Take care my friend and get better fast. -maybe some 22BPCR this spring? -Michael

[Kenny Wasserburger]

Mike, I have lead an interesting life, on the med very slow going I keep getting told to take it easy, I was very lucky in my high power days. Mr Tubb and I spent some interesting time together shooting the buffalo at Raton a couple years ago. 22's I hope so time will tell.
KW

[Gunlaker]

A shame so few PP shooters compete. Ten years ago when I started the match I offered the special Paper Patch award hoping it would spark some more PP entries. Lots of Internet talk of shooting PP and long-range shooting for that mater, but few come out to show off their stuff. I wish it were different.
Well...... you and Brent have stuck it out and are still with it! I have an itch to get out my DanT PP '90 rifle this year and re-attack the accuracy issues I was having. We will see how the time available goes for load testing ....

-Michael

Michael do you have any recommendations for a long range match out west?

I'm looking at the Byers match flyer and see that it's a 30 minute time limit for unlimited non-convertible sighters and 15 for score at each distance in 30 minutes. I can easily make time limits for silhouette wiping between shots, but am not sure I could shoot fast enough with my wiping routine for my new PP rifle :-).

I have shot PP in a couple of local gong matches with good results, but have not shot a match on paper yet.

thanks,

Chris.

[BrentD]

Missoula probably has best range west of the Mississippi. Certainly it is the most beautiful, but it also turns out some pretty high scores (and has good shooters). If I was to pick on range, that would be it, followed by Raton.

[Gunlaker]

Thanks Brent.

Chris.

[Don McDowell]

The range at Byers is a quite a bit nicer than Raton. The covered pits at Byers are especially nice, and the target frames much better.

[BrentD]

Byers always seems to have somewhat different rules. Are they NRA sanctioned matches? It strikes me that 30 min for 15 shots for record does not sound like NRA rules.

[Don McDowell]

The regional match at Byers are NRA sanctioned. Eron and Micheal gave up on sanctioning the monthly matches due to problems with the NRA HQ .
I'm not sure the 15 shots is any further out of line with the rules, than Lodi's allowing 2 or more spotters per shooter?

[BrentD]

Read the rule book. There is never more than two spotters per shooter at any match I've ever heard of.

[Don McDowell]

Rule 17 clearly shows that 15 shots for score are allowable for national records.

[Don McDowell]

Have read the rule book, but when you see the pictures of the winners at Lodi, and it lists their "spotting team"....

[BrentD]

Then it is good. No other match in the country does that however. At least none that I'm aware of.

[BrentD]

Obviously you don't understand the concept of 3 relays. Never is there more than one spotter per shooter. Maybe you should come out and how us how it's done.

The norm, with Byers being the only exception I know of, is 3 min/shot (as so stated in rule 8.2). Since Chris seems to be looking for his first long range match as I read it, I think Byers might be a poor choice given that constraint. And, of course, for any long range muzzleloader, that time set up is totally exclusionary, which may be the entire point.

[Lead pot]

Don.

I have never seen two spotters per shooter at Lodi since I been shooting there.

[Don McDowell]

The rule book clearly allows for a variation, as long as the variation is noted ahead of time and all contestants are allowed the same consideration.
The Byers 15 shot relays are clearly ok per the NRA rule book. It's really not a problem, it does force a shooter to get right to business. But then I've seen Master class shooters at Raton run out of time and not get enough shots on paper to have a full 10 shot score...
I would like to shoot that match at Lodi, the problem is scheduling, the fall match is the only one I realistically have a chance of getting to, but it's usually the same time as other matches here...
As for the spotting teams... maybe looking here http://www.distantthunderbpcr.com/DTPages/DTMatches.htm

[Lead pot]

Don.

I see where you got the two spotter thing. Lodi uses a three shooter relay. One on line, one spotting and one in the pit. Only one spotter.
Te second day shooter #1 will be shooter #3 or two this will give him a different spotter from the same squad. Still only one spotter.

[Kenny Wasserburger]

Missoula is a great range, many HP records and 50 cal records set there. Kind of like shooting a wind tunnel, I have heard that the timber has been thinned out a good bit since I last shot there in 2004. I have never used over 3 Moa of windage, Gullo often mention it as a great place to test loads, not so great to learn wind doping skills. It is great place to shoot LR with a 45-70, you will never have real tough conditions there.

KW

[Kenny Wasserburger]

If one really wants to test their loads-ammo and themselves, try the America's Cup at Phoenix AZ. Sorts out real fast, no spotter short amount of time, real test of rifle and shooter.

KW

[Don McDowell]

Kurt, Byers and Raton use the same relay set up, 2 person squads. Squad 1 on the line 1 shooter, 1 spotter. Sqaud 2 1 keeping score and one in the pits. Works pretty good, that way the shooter always has the same spotter, and everyone gets their turn at pulling targets.
Shooting at Byers is about the best opportunity short of the Nationals to be able to watch some of the best names in the business at work. The list at Byers, is rather impressive, you have the likes of Ahmer,Rix, Moritz, Odor, Jackson, Youngberg, Taylor and Terry...if a person is looking for someplace to shoot an NRA match, and have a chance to watch,listen and learn.. It would behoove them to stay on top of the registration dates for the Rocky Mtn. regional.

[BrentD]

I would rate Phoenix far above Byers for the shooters (quantitatively and qualitatively) and format that is more relevant to the Nationals. And there are many more shooters at Phoenix. Last year it was the third largest long range match. Byers is much smaller.

[Don McDowell]

Never been to Phoenix, so can't comment on it, altho the list of shooters there includes many of the same as Byers...

[Chill Wills]

Hey Chris, I want to respond to you but with the current ruckus on this thread I thought a PM best:razz: but .....naaaaa! Here goes.......

Any of the locations have something good to recommend them and then all can be tough in their own way.
The Byers format is not problem for time. You will do fine. In fact, the 15 shot format has some basses in History. So really, if someone new (or old like me) was having a trouble for some reason, it is possible to extend time a little. I think Eron is generous with an alibi. We are more of a small, happy bunch of riflemen, having a fun day out, than a 'grit your teeth, take no prisoner' type of place. It's friendly.
We like the 15 shot match. You really shoot about the same number of shots as a 10 shot match but you just "go for score" sooner, if you get what I mean. It is all a good time.

If you need better info please let me know, I will be glad to help you in any way I can. I understand going to far-away matches and having someone local helping me out with local advice. Not always needed but it can really help too.

Michael Rix

[Lead pot]

Chris.
Another good shooting match to attend that is not to far for you is the Quigley. It's not a NRA match but it is the largest match held anyplace that I know of you can drive too. 600 plus competitors, some of the best you will ever compete against any where, shooting under some of the most adverse conditions at times then I have seen or heard of. That shoot is more or less you and your rifle. You do have a spotter with you if you want one, but there are no wind flags to see changes, mirages are flat line or you cant see it. Just the swaying grass or a butterfly if the winds are calm :)
I think some shooters shy away from that match because first shot goes for score. No fouling shots or sighters. You have to know your rifle.
If you win that match you can put a well earned feather in your hat and wear it with pride.
If your a shooter bring a 1000 rounds and shoot all week. You will most likely have to reload like I have to.

Here is what I shot empty last year and I was not feeling well. That is a 5 gallon bucket :)
http://i704.photobucket.com/albums/ww43/Kurtalt/IMG_2033_zps48d69a0e.jpg (http://s704.photobucket.com/user/Kurtalt/media/IMG_2033_zps48d69a0e.jpg.html)

[Gunlaker]

I see that I should have started a new thread. Sorry MT Trapper for redirecting yours :-).

Brent you are completely correct. This woulds be my first LR paper match ( and depending on how things go, it might be my first paper BPTR match, although I'm going to try and get in on a few of the midrange matches at Butte. ).

I know I can do 15 shots in 30 minutes with my PP wiping routine, but if I take 3 sighters I think that would put me over the edge. In thinking about it though, it might be better for me to do the 15 shot format as I don't expect to win or place in the top three, so more shots down range equals more opportunities to learn.

Kenny I can't imagine using only 3 moa at long range! Last year was a calm year for our Kamloops silhouette match and I was using that at the pigs. I can see why records get set there. It sounds like my 200m range here on the coast. A 5 mph gust is a rare thing unless it's a hot summer afternoon. I will try the Phoenix LR matches next year if all goes well. I just wouldn't be ready in time this year. I really do like the idea of spotting for myself. When shooting our Kamloops silhouette match I only ask for POI from my spotter, and to let me know if he sees something funky in the wind. I do the wind corrections myself as I think that's the best way for me to learn. I've heard that our range in Kamloops is popular with the HP silhouette shooters because the winds are quite tricky.

Michael, I will talk with my wife about Byers and make up my mind tonight. She has found some flea markets in Colorado that she really wants to see :-).

Brent at some time I'd like to travel further east and shoot with you guys. My gunsmith has finally got around to rebarreling my .50-140. It's going to be a .45-70 using your reamer design. That'll be another project for next year :-).

Kurt the Quigley is right when we do our Kamloops silhouette and gong match so I wouldn't be able to make that one.

Chris.

[BrentD]

Chris, the first time you shoot a match the clock seems to spin 10 times faster than normal. No one ever had too much time. Frankly, I like shooting 10-15 sighters at times and then 10 for score in a half hour and that is moving fairly quickly. Most people will not shoot nearly that many sighters but plan on more than three for sure, esp. the first time. And sometimes I like to sit on the wind and see what happens. So it just depends on the situation, but more time is not a bad thing for the first time. And since you are in Canada, MT is going to be a lot closer than most other venues. BTW, you might call Buffaloarms and ask for Dave Gullo. I don't know where they shoot up there, but he says that they get ~25 shooters per match (it might be Missoula but I got the impression this was closer to home for him. Two weeks ago, he told me that he and his shooting partner were already practicing in decent weather. Apparently there is a hole in Winter and it is somewhere over Idaho. Sure as heck isn't around here.

What is your wiping routine?

[Gunlaker]

Hi Brent,

I know what you mean about the clock. Ideally I'd like the same time for sighters and ten shots. I haven't quite got this rifle sorted yet ( CSA Highwall .45-90 with DanT PP chamber ), but I'm hoping to get it down to 2 wets and a dry which works pretty well in the .45-70. It shoots well, but I still have a lousy ES/SD. When I filled out my ATF form for bringing my rifles into the country I probably should have just put the .45-70 on there instead of this new rifle as it already works well. But I'm a bit stubborn. :-)

I've copied some of Kenny and Dan's ideas with respect to the wiping routine, and I think I'm going to try your idea of using pure water. I'm finding that the wetter the patches and the more water vs. oil the better. The barrel on this .45-90 seems to really hold on to the fouling but I think it's getting a little better as I get more rounds through it, or perhaps I'm getting better at removing it.

Idaho would be nice and it is relatively close. My wife and I traveled through some of the western parts of that state last year and found it to be beautiful.

We are also in a place that doesn't have any winter. We didn't really get any at all this year. Mostly torrential rain which did prevent shooting at times as the fog was dense. This morning I put another 40 rounds through the rifle in beautiful sunny weather. If I can get ready fast enough I hope to do the same tomorrow.

Chris.

[Gunlaker]

Brent, I should detail the wiping routine. I've been playing with a few variations to try and get the ES/SD lower. At present here is the routine.

I'm using 90% water and 10% Ballistol on cotton patches with a jag.

The first wet patch goes all the way out the muzzle to remove the majority of the fouling.
The second wet patch goes to the muzzle and back to the chamber and back to the muzzle and out.
The third is the same as the second.
The fourth, dry patch, goes to the muzzle, back to the chamber, and back to the muzzle and out.

Chris.

[BrentD]

That is a lot of wiping. I don't know if I told you this before but I use two damp patches pushed out the muzzle in one pass. Then a dry. That's it. Three times the rod goes down the bore and each time it comes back w/o a patch. That's all it takes for me.

[Don McDowell]

Chris not real sure where it's at in Washington, think around Spokane, but at the Rattlesnake range they shoot a combined highpower/bpcr midrange and longrange matches.

[Gunlaker]

Don, I've heard a bit about the Rattlesnake mountain shoots and that is definitely something I've thought about.

I did some testing today and using nearly pure water on 3" Butches patches ( very wet ) pushed with a delrin jag followed by. Dry patch seems to work as well as anything. I still used three wets but I can probably get it down to two. Fifteen shots plus sighters is still likely pushing it for me, but I think it's doable.

Kurt, remember when you said I was probably getting the occasional gas cut? I didn't think so as I found no lead in the bore, but looking through yesterday's patch remnants there are a couple of small fragments that show gas cutting so you were right. I expect this is why I couldn't get the ES below 15 fps. There are usually be two shots or so out of ten that are out of the norm.

Is there dry camping at the Byers range?

Thanks,Chris.

[Gunlaker]

Btw, I learned that if you disable JavaScript in your browser, your post will have all of the spaces removed.

Chris.

[Don McDowell]

Chris, on the wiping thing, using 7 parts water to 1 part napa cutting oil and squeezing all the extra juice out of the patches, I can most times get by with 1 wet and 1 dry shooting this Eynsford powder. Other powders need 2 wets and a dry. But if the ambient temp goes up and humidity goes down adding another damp doesn't hurt .
Gas cutting you might want to think about adding a thin felt wad.
You can camp right behind the 1000 yd line for no charge, or you can go over into their rv parking where there are electric hookups but no water, for 5$ a night.

[Gunlaker]

Don that's interesting to hear about the OE and reduced fouling. Coincidentally I ordered a case of 1.5 Fg this afternoon. If I could reduce my wiping a bit that would be good. I might be able to already with the 3" Butches patches as the third one was coming out completely clean.

I will try the felt wad next week. Hopefully the sunny weather will last so I can continue to use the chronograph. Winter and sun are generally mutually exclusive where I live. Today it was a balmy 14 degrees C on the way back from the range this afternoon. That's about 57 degrees American :-).

Electrical hookup would be good. My wife and I just bought a reproduction 1962 Shasta Airflyte and we haven't used it yet. It's very small, but will do the trick!

Chris.

[Lead pot]

Chris.

If you don't seal that gas behind the bullet you will see the excess ES. This might not show up on the paper inside 200 yards but when you stretch out to midrange or farther you will see it especially with a hard bullet.
I had some occasional bullets that would drift out where they should not have gone using a single wad under the bullet when I quit using a lube wad. This made me go back to the snow bank the next winter and put 60 rounds in the snow what I would shoot during a match not counting the sighters and to my surprise I found more then I expected with cuts. some only looked like a mouse nibbling at the base but some way past the shank and up onto the ogive.
I put a single 1/16" cork and tried a 1/8" fine ground dense cork wad in my load and this dropped my ES down in the low single digits and stopped the gas cuts almost entirely. But this created another issue. The cork acts like a shock absorber and with the hard alloy the bullet did not get deep land engraving shooting the .45-70 like I see with the .45-90 or the .44-100.
With a added lubed felt wad and a plastic wad under the bullet I found very shallow land cuts. I did not find any signs of stripping but I think it could happen.

[Don McDowell]

Chris these are the felt wads I've been using http://www.midwayusa.com/product/2509115162/muzzle-loader-originals-shooting-wads-125-thickness-pre-lubricated-with-precision-lube-2000-felt-package-of-100?cm_vc=ProductFinding
Weather forecast for the next week looks good here, hope to get some load testing done.. Won't be long until the shooting season is upon us.

Sounds like a neat little camper. You guys will get a lot of good out of it.

[Gunlaker]

Thanks Kurt, that makes sense to me. I think I may have experienced the shallow engraving a year or two ago with one of my .45-110's. I added a rubberized cork wad to a wad combination that was already working just to see what would happen and the most of the shots did not hit paper at 200m! I guessed that this was likely to hardly any bump up.

With my .45-90 loaded with Fg it probably acts a bit closer to a .45-70 than a .45-90, although the muzzle vel is right around 1300 fps with a 535gr bullet. I'll fiddle with the wads and see what happens. When the OE gets here I'll try that powder too. Even if it's only as hot as regular Goex FFg it'll still put me at 1350 fps and it sounds like it might likely work with the extra cork or felt wad then.

Chris.

[Gunlaker]

Hey Chris, I want to respond to you but with the current ruckus on this thread I thought a PM best:razz: but .....naaaaa! Here goes.......

Any of the locations have something good to recommend them and then all can be tough in their own way.
The Byers format is not problem for time. You will do fine. In fact, the 15 shot format has some basses in History. So really, if someone new (or old like me) was having a trouble for some reason, it is possible to extend time a little. I think Eron is generous with an alibi. We are more of a small, happy bunch of riflemen, having a fun day out, than a 'grit your teeth, take no prisoner' type of place. It's friendly.
We like the 15 shot match. You really shoot about the same number of shots as a 10 shot match but you just "go for score" sooner, if you get what I mean. It is all a good time.

If you need better info please let me know, I will be glad to help you in any way I can. I understand going to far-away matches and having someone local helping me out with local advice. Not always needed but it can really help too.

Michael Rix

Hi Michael,

I've sent an email to Eron for the matches on Aug 21st to 23rd. If there is space for a new guy I'll send in my registration. It's good timing for me, and I like that there are three days of match shooting to be done. That gives me good bang for my driving mile. I'm also going to try and get in on the midrange matches at the end of May in Worland Wy. It sounds like an interesting format, and again it's a couple of days of shooting.

thanks,

Chris.

[Chill Wills]

Hello Chris, That is great that you will be able to come! August seems like it is forever away, especially with all this snow on the ground outside my window but I am sure that rifle match will be here in a blink and I will be scrambling to get ready![smilie=l:
My guess is that you will shoot better that you think! I look forward to seeing you -and your wife I assume. All the best.

[Gunlaker]

Well, we shall see about the shooting skills part :-). On a good day, when my head is in the right place I seem to do ok.

I think I've finally got the rifle to where it's starting to work well. It seems that most of my problems were that my Chrony does not like the cold.

What sort of winds do you guys see in Byers? Am I likely to run out of windage using a standard MVA LR Soule? I'll likely be shooting a 535gr Money bullet at 1300 to 1350 fps depending on where I end up.

My wife and I are really looking forward to the trip. I haven't been to Colorado before, and haven't seen Montana or Wyoming since I was a kid. I like a good road trip :-)

Chris.