Education Requested: .44/310 Mag Cast Loads

[DODGEM250]

I'm not an ignorant fellow, BUT, since I have gotten back in to casting and reloading, I find some information out here to be rather confusing. Back in the day, there was one way to do it, not there's 10 ways to Sunday, and it confuses me.

One company says, do it this way (powder), and another company says do it this way (bullet), and another company says do it this way (dipper)... all while trying to reload the same damned cartridge.

I simply want to use either my "on-hand" HS-6 or Hodgdon Clays ( not Uni or Int., just "Clays" )

Somewhere between the Lee powder dipper at .7 to 1.9cc and between the Hodgdon manuals of 9.8gr to 13.0gr I have become completely lost/confused/dazed at what I should and should not do.

Here is what I understand for my cast .44 Mag / 310 gr bullets per the Lee dipper "slide card" loading data:

HS-6 @ .7cc dipper = 9.8 grs = minimum charge - target
HS-6 @ 1.cc dipper = 14. grs = maximum charge - hunting

Clays @ 1.6cc dipper = 10.9 grs = minimum charge - target
Clays @ 1.9cc dipper = 13.0 grs = maximum charge - hunting

NOW, I want to reload some light rounds for target shooting and some heavy rounds for actual hunting. Is the information above correct ?

I have come to understand the universal Min/Max load thresholds are 11.0grs minimum and 13.0 grs maximum for any/all .44 Mag bullets.

I understand that these may not be the best choices for the .44 mag, but, it's what I have and I'm not interested in opinions of what powder(s) others use, but, I my concern here is whether or not I am actually understanding the provided data from all of these difference loading data resources to combine as one specific load.

The powder I can change at anytime, it's the math and conversion of all of these different variables to combine to do the same thing that is losing me.

I also want to add that I'm interested in an I'm right, He's wrong debate here, that has nothing to do with this thread. I simply want some backing as to Yes, you understand the math and conversion tables or no you got it all wrong.

[PacMan]

Quick question.
Do you have a powder scale?

[PacMan]

I dug out my Lee dipper chart and i can find no place it list target or hunting loads.
Did i miss read somthing.
As far as 1cc dipper =14 granis os HS6 i dont know if i understand the relationship between that and what the Hodgdon manual shows of 13 grains.
If 13 grains is max. then you would not want to use a 14gr dipper.
Maybe i am reading your whole post wrong.

[KYCaster]

That Clays load is WAY too hot!!!!

The heaviest bullet Hodgden has Clays data for is 240 gr. and that tops out at 6.2 gr.

Please find a better source for your data before you proceed.

Jerry

[DODGEM250]

Quick question.
Do you have a powder scale?

I do.

[DODGEM250]

That Clays load is WAY too hot!!!!

The heaviest bullet Hodgden has Clays data for is 240 gr. and that tops out at 6.2 gr.

Please find a better source for your data before you proceed.

Jerry

1) That's what I assumed.

2) That's why I posted this.

[DODGEM250]

I dug out my Lee dipper chart and i can find no place it list target or hunting loads.
Did i miss read somthing.

As far as 1cc dipper =14 granis os HS6 i dont know if i understand the relationship between that and what the Hodgdon manual shows of 13 grains.

If 13 grains is max. then you would not want to use a 14gr dipper.

Maybe i am reading your whole post wrong.

It won't. The Hunting / Target references is my addition to explain what I want to use each load for.

This is my point. One source says do it this way and another source says do it this...

Again, which source do I trust ?

[DODGEM250]

This is a photo of the slide card data for HS-6 that came with the Lee powder measure dipper set I have. Now, trying to stay within known thresholds, this "card" tell me I need to use between a 7cc minimum and a 1.00 maximum. Which does not make sense to me due to the fact that everything I read says not go over a 13 grain maximum for the .44 magnum.

Now, the bottom picture is from the Hodgdon website. This is where I get the 11 MIN and 13 MAX information.

[PacMan]

Not sure how to explain it but the 1cc =14gr has nothing to do with the Hodgdon manual. I do not see two diffrent sources only one. If you have a powder scale you might try and .8cc or .9cc and get your 13 grains.
There is no relationship between the Lee dippers and load data other than the chart tells you what charge a dipper will throw of a certian powder.
Cannot expect the dipper set to throw charges that are in load manuals.Maybe they will maybee they wont.

The 1cc dipper is as stated for 14gr charge which may or may not work in some calibers and bullet weights.

The card does not give loads for any loads only weights that the dipper will throw of a certian powder. You have only one source of load data here and that is the Hodgdon manual not the Lee card.
Follow Me?

[DODGEM250]

Not sure how to explain it but the 1cc =14gr has nothing to do with the Hodgdon manual. I do not see two diffrent sources only one. If you have a powder scale you might try and .8cc or .9cc and get your 13 grains.
There is no relationship between the Lee dippers and load data other than the chart tells you what charge a dipper will throw of a certian powder.
Cannot expect the dipper set to throw charges that are in load manuals.Maybe they will maybee they wont.

The 1cc dipper is as stated for 14gr charge which may or may not work in some calibers and bullet weights.

The card does not give loads for any loads only weights that the dipper will throw of a certian powder. You have only one source of load data here and that is the Hodgdon manual not the Lee card.
Follow Me?

Exactly, and that's what it is supposed to do, is tell me which dipper is going to measure the amount of powder I need, therefore the slide chart is telling me what I need to know.

It doesn't make sense to me that a dipper would say it is a .7cc that weighs out 9.8 grains of HS-6 powder and then the Hodgdon website says to use 11/13 grains of HS-6 powder. What the hell is the sense of the Lee dippers then. I assume the dipper measures out the specified powder in the grains as listed on the slide scale, that's its purpose for existence isn't it ?

I guess I will now ask... How many grains of HS-6 do I need to measure to reload a 44. Magnum ? Just let me find out what this answer is and I'll go from there. Don't shoot, I'm learning too.

[Mk42gunner]

Work up a load that is in the manuals by weighing them on your scale. If you want to use the Lee dippers and it matches, fine. If it does not match, which is probable, and you want to use a dipper to measure the powder charge; make your own custom dipper by soldering a handle on a cutdown cartridge case.

Put a handle on it that you can lable what the charge is, and you are set.

Personally, I find the greatest use for dippers is to put a light charge in the scale pan, then trickle it up to the proper weight.

Hope this helps,

Robert

[PacMan]

The loading manual tells you what you need to know(grains powder) not the Lee Chart.The chart only tells you what each dipper will hold and nothing else.Either it matches or it does not period.
Their use is really limited but mostly used as MK42 says

You ask how many grains to use. The Hodgdon manual tells you.Stat low and work up toward the max charge untill happy with the load.

[jblee10]

The slide chart does tell you an approximation on the powder dipped by certain size dippers. But the dippers only come in certain sizes, so they will not always throw the exact charge that you want. I would also check the weight of the thrown charge on my scale before blindly excepting the word of any chart.

Also, double check the Hodgdon Data!!!!!!!! There is no Clays load for 300 gr bullets!!!!!!!!!!

[DODGEM250]

The slide chart does tell you an approximation on the powder dipped by certain size dippers. But the dippers only come in certain sizes, so they will not always throw the exact charge that you want. I would also check the weight of the thrown charge on my scale before blindly excepting the word of any chart.

Also, double check the Hodgdon Data!!!!!!!! There is no Clays load for 300 gr bullets!!!!!!!!!!

That is what I'm looking for. You nailed it right on the head. Thank You ! I knew the math and conversion was not that hard and I obviously do understand it the way it is meant to be understood.

I pulled the bullet from a previous reload from my buddy's stash and the bullet is a 310 grain. Whatever powder is in that case scales at 18 grains. I am not trying to duplicate a load. I am simply trying to find a lighter load for target shooting using HS-6. It is now fair to say that I can assume a starting point of 9.8 grains of HS-6 by using the .7cc Lee dipper, BUT, I am going to run back out to the shop and actually weigh a .7cc dipper of HS-6 and see what the scale tells me. Heck I might be able to use the 1.00 dipper. I just can not seem to find that answer at this point.

[DODGEM250]

The slide chart does tell you an approximation on the powder dipped by certain size dippers. But the dippers only come in certain sizes, so they will not always throw the exact charge that you want. I would also check the weight of the thrown charge on my scale before blindly excepting the word of any chart.

Also, double check the Hodgdon Data!!!!!!!! There is no Clays load for 300 gr bullets!!!!!!!!!!

This I know, but, I was hoping. It only lists the 300 for the HS-6 as the screen shot above indicates.

Seems to be a lot of load data information that has to be dug up in order to use the powder for the uses it is stated it can be used for. It also appears that all 4 bullets I want to reload require their own specific powders. ie: 12 gauge slug, 20, gauge slug, .44 magnum and .38/.357

[DODGEM250]

Ok. I just went out and measured my HS-6 against my scale and the .7cc Lee dipper gives me 10grs and the 1.00 Lee dipper gives me 14 grains. So, with that behind me I will reload some .44 Magnums. No one out of 96 views on this threads seems to think different, so, away we go.

[KYCaster]

A dipper can be customized by pushing a tight fitting disk of cardboard or foam to the bottom of the dipper. Try different thicknesses till you find the volume you need.

Consistency with dippers depends a lot on technique and I don't often use them for that reason. I don't consider using them for anything near max loads, but for loads where a small variation in charge weight is acceptable they can be very useful.

Good luck
Jerry

[DODGEM250]

A dipper can be customized by pushing a tight fitting disk of cardboard or foam to the bottom of the dipper. Try different thicknesses till you find the volume you need.

Consistency with dippers depends a lot on technique and I don't often use them for that reason. I don't consider using them for anything near max loads, but for loads where a small variation in charge weight is acceptable they can be very useful.

Good luck
Jerry

Excellent reply. None of my loads are maximum. They are all light loads for target shooting. We're just trying to find something that works so we can shoot several rounds without being worn out.

The problem is understanding what loading data to actually follow. The bullet mold says one thing, the powder can says another, the dipper chart says something else, the powder website says this is what you do, and general consensus says I do it this way.

Basically what it boils down to is, you find something that's within reason and make sure you don't get too giddy with the amount of powder.

[leadman]

No, you use the data from several sources, like Hodgdon powder company and The Lyman relaoding manual.
I have never seen any load data with a mold and the Lee chart is not load data. The Lee chart is telling you how much powder each dipper will have in it when full.
You are dealing with alot of pressure in the 44 mag case, especially with the 310gr bullet. Ever seen any pictures of a revolver with the topstrap and a couple of the chambers in the cylinder missing? You could be headed in that direction.

Stop and look at what you are going to do, read what is in the reloading manuals and ask more questions here if you do not understand the loading process.

It is ok to not understand the process as long as you realize this and ask more questions until you do. We were all newbies at one time and somehow most of us survived.

[DODGEM250]

No, you use the data from several sources, like Hodgdon powder company and The Lyman relaoding manual.
I have never seen any load data with a mold and the Lee chart is not load data. The Lee chart is telling you how much powder each dipper will have in it when full.
You are dealing with alot of pressure in the 44 mag case, especially with the 310gr bullet. Ever seen any pictures of a revolver with the topstrap and a couple of the chambers in the cylinder missing? You could be headed in that direction.

Stop and look at what you are going to do, read what is in the reloading manuals and ask more questions here if you do not understand the loading process.

It is ok to not understand the process as long as you realize this and ask more questions until you do. We were all newbies at one time and somehow most of us survived.

LMAO why do you think I started this thread ???? The reason is all the sources tell me something different. I started this thread to find out who / what source to trust in.

I am asking more questions. The problem is everyone replies I get no answers.

I know the Lee chart is not load data, BUT, it does tell you what dipper to use for the specified amount powder your specific charge requires. Does it not ? If not, then why in the hell does i exists at all ?

The manual that comes with the Lee .44 Magnum three die set specifically states to use the .7 Dipper for the 300 grain cast bullet and specifically states this for use with HS-6 powder for the 11.0 grain load. NOW, if I am supposed to use the .7 dipper for this load with these dies and powder, why on this Earth do they supply a 2.2cc dipper with this kit ??? Why do they even waste my time putting a dipper in their kits at all ???? I am not stupid, but, nothing makes a lick of sense here. This is why I am looking for that person who has the answers I need to not kill myself. I also feel like what I am reading and understanding is correct. The load is:

Use the .7cc Dipper for 11 Grains ( it does measure 11 grains as it says, my scales say it's so as well) of HS-6 powder for the 300 grain bullet for a .44 Magnum. This is the starting load data right from the manual that comes with the dies. Hodgdons website says the same damned thing. Why is this so complicated to understand ?

I don't think it's complicated, what I think is too many people try to be that proverbial know-it-all and this is where the real confusion comes in. I'm still waiting for that one person who can explain to me what to, and not to do, as of yet, the road is still uphill, you might say and a few reloading sites later, still looking.

[singleshot]

Let me see if I can help.

Your starting load for a 300 grain XTP is .78cc of HS-6. .7 IS an acceptable starting load with a lead 310 grain boolit.

I've been using dippers for tens of thousands of loads. I never get more than a .2gr variation by using a flat surface to scrape the excess off the top. A "heaping" load will give you a 7% to 10% increase in charge with a given dipper.

A level 1.0 cc dipper of HS-6 is indeed 14 grains. Based on published load date, it's too hot.

The Lee dippers are designed to give you one load for a given boolit with the powder listed with a kit.

I prefer measuring by volume. I find more consistent results measuring that way. I've found scales to be too finicky.

A Lee Perfect measure will allow you to dial in the EXACT amount of powder by volume. I get less than .1gr variation using this tool, and I find it much less finicky than even a $650 RCBS auto-job a friend let me borrow.

BTW, ALL factory ammo is measured BY VOLUME.

Does this help? If I've confused the issue further for you, please disregard.

[singleshot]

The only powder I can find that you can use 1.0cc of powder with that boolit is Herc 2400 and AA#9. (If you care.)

[singleshot]

Oh, one other important point:

I've found EVERY source of published load data by powder or bullet manufacturers to be reliable. In order to have actual load data you must have: cartridge, primer, boolit (or bullet) weight and style, powder type, powder weight or volume, and overall cartridge length. If you're missing ANY of these, you have incomplete info.

Many times you'll see the data change with changes in one or more of these variables.

[DODGEM250]

Let me see if I can help.

Your starting load for a 300 grain XTP is .78cc of HS-6. .7 IS an acceptable starting load with a lead 310 grain boolit.

I've been using dippers for tens of thousands of loads. I never get more than a .2gr variation by using a flat surface to scrape the excess off the top. A "heaping" load will give you a 7% to 10% increase in charge with a given dipper.

A level 1.0 cc dipper of HS-6 is indeed 14 grains. Based on published load date, it's too hot.

The Lee dippers are designed to give you one load for a given boolit with the powder listed with a kit.

I prefer measuring by volume. I find more consistent results measuring that way. I've found scales to be too finicky.

A Lee Perfect measure will allow you to dial in the EXACT amount of powder by volume. I get less than .1gr variation using this tool, and I find it much less finicky than even a $650 RCBS auto-job a friend let me borrow.

BTW, ALL factory ammo is measured BY VOLUME.

Does this help? If I've confused the issue further for you, please disregard.

This answers the question to the whole thread. All I am trying to do it push the bullet through the hole at a sheet of paper in a safe manner.

My buddy is not looking to shoot 50 bullets through the same hole in that sheet of paper. All I want to do is find a simple, easy, quick way to measure the powder for about 100 rounds and and worry about custom loads some other year.

The basic principle is to scoop the powder out of the can with a selected dipper for the load I desire and be done. I have already figured this part out. I am simply looking for verification that I understand the charts and loading data correctly since it is combined from different sources. I now know I understand the math.

I have also learned, over the past two days, that there are a lot of guys who reload, that probably should not be in the same room with black powder. I've learned that I understand the math of reloading better than most of the guys who have given me replies on other forums. I have also learned that reloading equipment and supply manufacturers also contradict their own load data.

However, I now have my answer to my question by combining the information from several forums and a few other places. Thanks for the replies.

[PacMan]

I have also learned, over the past two days, that there are a lot of guys who reload, that probably should not be in the same room with black powder. I've learned that I understand the math of reloading better than most of the guys who have given me replies on other forums. I have also learned that reloading equipment and supply manufacturers also contradict their own load data.

However, I now have my answer to my question by combining the information from several forums and a few other places. Thanks for the replies.[/QUOTE]

Good luck.

[Reload3006]

my .02 if its even worth that. ........ Every one except the new digital dispensers charge by volume The Lee dippers are volume. dip scrape and weigh. it will weigh the same with in acceptable tolerances new lot weigh again. repeat. not so confusing.

[kbstenberg]

Dodge are you under the assumption that you have to use all the powder that any specific dipper measures. When I use the lee dippers I fill the dipper with power then I slowly dribble the power into the powder scale pan until the desired weight of power is obtained, then I fill the cartridge case with the powder.
The dippers are only a starting point.
Kevin

[leadman]

I did use the dippers at one time but found the loads listed with the kit for the Arg Mauser was overly conservative. If you heaped the powder as high as possible it would still have been a safe load.
Now even when I load with the Pro Disk measure in my Lee Turret press I weight check what the cavity is actually dropping. I find almost all cavities drop a light charge. I have several sets of disks and the cavities vary for the same cc.
So I am weighing the charges, and this is what I recommend you should do just to be safe.
If your dipper is light that is probably ok, or you can trickle more powder on the pan.
Even though the load is with the die set from Lee it never hurts to compare that data with the powder company data. Typos are possible.
I recently found an error on a 30-30 load listed on an IMR loading pamplet. This is the free paperback book that is usually on the gunshop counter. the extra 4 grains of powder was enough to cause a problem for my friend that was using this incorrect data. He damaged a gun but no personal injuries.
So double check your data and if a couple of sources agree you should be good to go. Always start with the listed starting load.

Be safe and have fun!

[GR Pitts]

I have a question regarding thr 44 Mag 310 grain bullet and being brand new to this forum I hope you don't mine me butting in on this thread. I just recently cast up some of the 310 grain bullets using Lee mold C430-310-RF and looking at the Lyman reloading data in their 4th edition Cast Bullet Handbook, I'm a bit confused. Page 273 lists max OAL for 44 mag as 1.61 inches. The specific load data on page 275 for the 310 grain bullet shows an OAL of 1.71 inches.
I am using 15.9 grains of 2400 powder in a S&W 629, which shows to be mid range for that bullet. My seating depth works to 1.595, which shows to be a bit less than the 1.61. Since the specific data shows 1.71, I'm a bit concerned over cup pressure as I have not fired this specific load.

If anyone can help me by giving me a bit more information regarding what appears to be a contradiction in the reloading data, I'd greatly appreciate it.

Thanks!