357 COL Wowes...

[inthebeech]

What Ruger designer forgot to measure the COL of a loaded 357 round using the most popular bullet in that caliber's history, the Lyman 358429, crimped in the groove where it is intended, and make sure that the Blackhawk cylinder (Medium frame from pre-1973) was long enough to accomodate :groner:

So what does this community recommend for how I can shorten the COL by the ninety thousandths ( .090 ) that I need with this bullet? I can certainly just crimp over the shoulder rather than the crimp groove, which I may try for moderate loads with Unique and light loads with Bullseye, but I am a bit cautious to try this with heavy loads with H-110 that usually recommends a heavy crimp.

Thoughts?
Thanks.

[btroj]

My BH and GP100 will both accept a loaded round on 357 using that ullet. I may busing a mould of different age as Lyman moulds seem to change over the years!

All you can do is reduce the powder charge and crimp over the front band.

As for the design- I am sure Ruger looked at standard 357 loads and made a gun to fit them. That, combined with size constraints, probably led them to the size they made. There is a "normal" COL for 357 and you are using a bullet that exceeds it. Try using that in a Marlin, too long.

By the way, I haven't used that bullet in many, many years. Sorry, not so popular in my home anymore. I found others that work better for me.

[BOOM BOOM]

HI,
I used that boolit in my old Blackhawk for years w/ no problem.
Check your cylinder troughs for Pb buildup or c buildup or some other obstruction.
Perhaps a re-ream of cylinder?:Fire::Fire:

[fecmech]

Lymans cast data for that bullet is with the crimp over the front drive band. That said I've shot that bullet for years with a light taper crimp on the front drive band to an OAL of 1.638. That fits my Ruger GP cylinder. If you don't have a taper crimper just use your regular die to turn the case bell back to straight. That's a long bullet and case neck tension should hold it just fine, I've never had one walk out of the case from recoil and my standard load is max 296/H110 for 1250 fps.

BTW some years back I chrono'd the same load (12.5/2400) both heavily crimped and taper crimped 10 rds each. The extreme spread and sd's were identical. The SD on my 296 loads run 10-12 fps, crimp doesn't mean squat as far as powder burn, bullet pull is where it's at. That is determined by your sizer and expander dimensions.

[Maven]

inthebeech, There are 3 options: Do as fecmech suggested in post #4; follow Lyman's suggestion to crimp over the front driving band (OAL will then be ~1.43"); or trim your cases to 1.25" a la Brian Pearce. Pearce's method works as it allows you to apply the crimp in the crimp groove rather than on the front drive band. Since I have both Ruger BH and Dan Wesson .357mags., I chose the last option because I don't want to bother with different lots of brass and OAL's to suit each revolver.

[TCLouis]

Maven you forgot the Keith option.

NOT a good idea if you have 38 spl handguns or load for them with 358429, but his solution was 13.5 gr. 2400 loaded in 38 spl case.

As I remember it the Model 27, 28(?) was the main reason for the 358156 to be created.

Very accurate boolit with medium hot load out of my 37 Herrrett by the way

[Tim357]

The 358429 was not designed for the .357 mag. Elmer Keith designed it for the .38 special, before the 357 magnum was developed. The cylinder length of the large frame .38s of S&W of the era was used to his advantage, by having more bullet outside the case, a greater amount of powder could be fit inside the case. Personally, were I to use this bullet in a magnum, I would shorten the brass so I could use the crimp groove.
My two cents...

[GP100man]

Just a FYI & maybe summtin that most folks don`t endeavor in , but Elmer raised quite a fuss to keep the 358429 the same length as the 429421. & Elmer even said the 170+ gr. boolit was a bit heavy to get all the potential from the 357 magnum !

But we all do it !!!

& the 358429 was designed for the 38/44 outdoorsman.

Mr. Ray Thompson designed the 358156 at a time when it was needed ,out of nessity as 357magnum brass was kinda hard to come by & people wanted "my magnum" stoked with something perkier than 38 loadings !!

I feel the 358446 is a good trade off ,& will work in all my 357/38 revolvers, but I still have & plan to keep my 358429 & NOE 360-180 molds !!

[inthebeech]

Range sesion today confirmed what Fecmech suggested - I just skipped the crimp and with Unique at least (not tempermental and very tollerant) it didn' seem to matter, as judged by my chrno, whether I crimped or not. I agree that the neck tension from seating my .359 bulets seemed to build up proper pressure just fine. I'll try no crimp next with H-110 but for now I am pretty pleased with Unique and I suspect Bullseye will behave well also.
I might invest in a taper crimp die for the heck of it anyway.

One other cautionary note I've discovered. My expander plug doesn't have enough length to expand the case deep enough if I wanted to crimp over the shoulder. When I seat bullets and then pull them and measure, their diameter gets reduced below recommended diameter because I am jamming the bullets down below the expanded section. This might have caused the leading that I experienced specifically with these loads. Does any particular manufacturer make an expander die/button that will expand the full length of the "at-diameter" 358429?
Ed

[mooman76]

What about the factory crimp die? You can crimp where you want.

[GabbyM]

Lyman M die expander will reach deep enough. I got one just last week and it is the depth to fit a 147 gr full wad cutter.

[gefiltephish]

... Does any particular manufacturer make an expander die/button that will expand the full length of the "at-diameter" 358429?
Ed

Send a PM to Buckshot.

[bob208]

i have been loading the 358429 in .357 cases crimped over the shoulder for years. also use that same boolit in .38 spl. cases loaded in the crimp grove with out problems.

i do belive that people should read the loading books more.

[GLL]

The 45 2.1 358429 design was made specifically to circumvent that problem !
It has a slightly reduced crimp groove to meplat distance + three equal bands. Most of the 358429 Group Buys here are based on his design. Perfect for guns like the short-cylinder S&W Model 27s ! :)

Jerry

http://www.fototime.com/B581C1AD7E6A22C/standard.jpg

45 2.1 design in the middle
http://www.fototime.com/3EAAC8FAD902CCD/standard.jpg
The bullets on the right and left are BOTH LYMAN ! Their designs were all over the map as years passed by !!!