Ethical Shot with 30-30

[wtfooptimax200]

What is your feeling on the maximum ethical limit of a 30-30? This is assuming a CB load that is accurately placed on target (whitetail or hog). Do you feel that a 35 Rem would have a longer practical maximum range?

My opinion on this matter is that I wouldn't shoot the 30-30 farther than 150 and probably wouldn't take the 35 Rem any farther. I'm very curious to hear everyone's opinion.

[Reload3006]

it depends on the shooter and the situation. 200 yds is stretching both IMO. but the older I get and the worse my eyes get for me anything over 50 yds would be unethical. (my 30-30 is opens sites)

[Boerrancher]

I would say that 150 yards is about the limit for either rifle. I have years ago dusted many a coyote running across the bottoms at 150 yards, but it was wide open and no brush. I don't think I would try anything over a 100 in the timber, but it has to be big open timber to be able to see 100 yards.

Best wishes,

Joe

[Crawdaddy]

Ditto. 150 is a pretty good place to draw the line with either.

[btroj]

I agree that 150 is a practical max. Even that is pushing it depending upon your shooting ability.

I don't think a 35 rem is going to be any better at longer ranges than the 30-30.

Face it, they are designed as 100 to 150 yard deer guns, keep them there. If you need to shoot farther get a different gun.

[TXGunNut]

I sight in my leverguns a bit high @ 100 to give me a 150 yd zero. I seldom need to shoot over 100 yds at hogs & deer so that's more than long enough. Plenty of oomph @ 150 with my loads if I need it in 30WCF, 32SPL, 35REM and 45-70. In recent yrs I've been more concerned with critters getting too close. ;)

[W.R.Buchanan]

I saw a guy today hit a 500 meter 55lb ram with an open sighted Marlin .30-30. It knocked the target over.

that said,,,, 150 yds is about the limit for hunting or 200 with spitzer bullets.

The gun is more limited by the sights than the round.

Randy

[MBTcustom]

I would say given that you are an accurate shot at any range and the rifle is accurate enough, 200 yards on the 30-30 and 250 with the 35rem and heavy projectiles.
(I have yet to see a rifle in either caliber that is accurate enough to make that an ethical shot)
They both have enough energy to get the job done that far away, but just barely. They are supposed to be less-than 100 yard cartridges.
Actualy thats why I built a .358 winchester, to get me ethically out to 200 yards.

[9.3X62AL]

150 yards seems like a reasonable range limit for the 30-30 WCF running it at top end with either jacketed soft points or soft-point castings. I have almost zero experience with the 35 Remington, and wouldn't know one way or the other. My Win 94 in 30-30 has a Lyman 66 aperture rear sight and factory front sight, and using those it is a 2"-2.5" rifle at 150 yards--castings or j-words.

[Canuck Bob]

The question of ethics is a loaded question. I would call elk hunting at long range unethical many don't. Yet I would hunt deer under sporting limits with my 32-20 lever and many consider that unethical.

I often find folks asking how far can I stretch the range of my lever gun. A valid and important question to answer. There might be a danger that we are missing the pride of what were once known as sporting limits with a little bit of bolt action envy added. Accomplished bowhunters are the best hunters I know. The restriction of thier weapon is a source of honest pride. When I tell folks I'm training to hunt with a 444 Marlin or 32 WS with cast bullets I'm bragging. Most think I'm an ignorant hunter who hasn't been properly educated yet or just a plain old stupid hick (guilty)!

The 30-30 has a century long proven track record to 150 yards for average Joe hunters on deer with any proper type bullet, J or cast. To 200 yards an accomplished rifleman with above average bush skills (the ability to track blood trails and the persistence to actually do it) can be deadly. I also consider it quite acceptable for moose and elk under 100 yards in the hands of a true hunter who knows how to stalk unsuspecting animals, where to shoot, and hits it everytime offhand. This includes firm self restraint to not take a marginal or bad shot.

The next time a guy tells me my antique with cast bullets is useless past 50 yards I have a reply. "Would you like me to teach you how to hunt that close?"

[TXGunNut]

The next time a guy tells me my antique with cast bullets is useless past 50 yards I have a reply. "Would you like me to teach you how to hunt that close?" -Canuck Bob


Well said. I pride myself in seldom taking long shots on game. Ethics has more to do with the capabilities of the hunter than the rifle. I know what my equipment is capable of and my comfort zone is well inside of that envelope. Hunting is a very fluid situation; critter might move, wind might shift, shooter might get nervous or excited. What I and my rifle can do under near-perfect conditions has little to do with what I'm willing to attempt under hunting conditions.

[cdet69]

150 yards would be my max.

[ubetcha]

I make 200m shot with my 14" T/C Contender in 30-30 with reduced cast load and knock down 60lb steel silhouette targets.Yes they can be accurate at that distance,but I would not make a shot at a deer at that distance though.I would think that with a j-word load at proper volicitys one MAY be able to make an ethical shot at a deer and be successful.I feel with the added power of a rifle the odds would increase again with the proper load

[6pt-sika]

Up at John Kort's Lever Action Jubilee shoot about 5 years ago I used a Marlin Model 1936 in 32 Special to knock the chickens over at 200 meters gun had a Lyman tang sight on it . For the 300 meter rams I used a Marlin 336SC 30-30 with a Lyman peep sight , at 385 meters for the turkeys I used another peep sighted 336SC in 32 Special and finally for the 500 meter rams I used a peep sighted 336SC in 35 REM .

Now I'm not gonna sit here and tell you I hit everything I shot at , but I did hit a few at each yardage and knocked them over . And this was before I got into shall we say more high octane powders for my cast loads !

All the guns mentioned were shooting cast pushed with one or other of the SR powders .Also the NEWEST gun in the bunch was made in 1952 !

And true we are speaking of striking inanimatte objects here . I still think either of the three is acceptable to 200 yards for whitetails IF the person is capable and more then likely if the rifle is scoped .

[6pt-sika]

I might add in the Damage Control hunt we did in august/se[tmeber and the regular deer season here in Virginia I killed 11 deer and a black bear . All but one deer were killed with variouse cast bullets from variouse 444 rifles I own . The average range of shots for those 12 animals was 41.6 yards .

The longest I had this past season were during the DCP hunting . Shot the bear and the deer I killed with a jacketed bullet at 70 yards each !

A 30-30 , 32 Special or 35 REM would certainly have been adequate for anything I popped a cap at this season !

[6pt-sika]

Yet I would hunt deer under sporting limits with my 32-20 lever and many consider that unethical.


The great "Jordan Buck" was killed with a 25-20 no less !

Granted James Jordan shot him something like 6 times before he finally got him .

Under "good" circumstances I'd have no issue shooting deer inside 50 yards with a 219 Zipper , 25-20 , 32 H&R MAG , 32-20 or 327 Federal all in rifles of course . And all but the Zipper with cast bullets .

A deer is not as difficult to kill as some folks would like you to believe . However on the other hand with the cartridges I mentioned ONE HAS TO BE ABLE TO PRACTICE RESTRAINT !

With those for lack of a better term "Little Guys" you cannot be taking questionable shots that say a 35 REM or larger would blow on thru . Also you need to put yourself in situations with cartridges I mentioned where you have no oppurtunity for shots much past 65 yards or so . That way it'll cut down on your mistakes at yardage guessing in the heat of the moment . Another thing to take into consideration with the Little Guys is the relative body size of the deer in your geographiocal area . In the southeast I think you would be okay if you followed my parameters . However in Alberta or Saskatchewan it might be a little more difficult since the deer bodywise can be twice the size of our whietails in VA . But if you were really cautiouse and only took broadside lung shots and or headshots you might be okay with the big bruisers also . But let me say this , if I lived in either of those provinces I might be intrested in giving that a try , but on a pay hunt ain't no way I'm gonna have a bolt action something on the lines of a 264 WIN MAG or 7mm REM MAG .

[W.R.Buchanan]

A good way to find out if you should shoot farther than you think you can, is to show up for the silhoutte shoots with your deer rifle. Those games were developed specifically to make you a better hunter/shooter. First you need to find one and show up.

If you can't consistantly hit the chickens at 200 Meters you probably shouldn't shoot any farther than that at an animal. If you can hit 3-4 from standing then you could probably do pretty good off a rest.

Most silhoutte shoots are so informal that they don't mind a bit if you shoot a levergun off a rest anyway, and like I said if you can't hit a chicken everytime at 200 off a rest then you shouldn't shoot at a deer anyway, since a chicken is about the size of the vitals of a deer.

If someone complains just tell them you are not competing with him you are just practicing for your next hunt.

As I said above most of these guns are limited more by the sights than the cartirdge. If you load 150 Spitzer bullets in your 30-30 (only load one in the pipe and one in the mag.) That essentially is a .30-06 or .308 down loaded to 23-2400 FPS. My standard .308 load yeilds around 2600 fps from my Ruger Scout with those same bullets. 200 fps isn't going to make that much difference at 200 yards. And if you shoot at paper targets first you can get a pretty good idea what the bullet drop is at that range.

Isn't the whole idea of LeverEvolution Ammo to increase the range of a .30-30 to 250yds?

Marlins all will mount scopes pretty easily, One of the benefits of the closed top design, So there you go.

If you are willing to take the shot at 250 with an 06-or.308, then why not with a Marlin 30-30 with a scope and better bullets.

Without the scope (or really even with it) I'd say you need to practice alot and answer the question for yourself.

Either you can make the shot or not, you should know right from wrong simply based on that.

Oh you can't really say you can "make the shot" until you have actually done it about 100 times.

Paco Kelly's rule is 100 rounds of practice for every 100 yards you plan on shooting. I personally think this is a sound rule.

Those guys shooting stuff at 600 yards need to burn a bunch of powder first!

The whole reason we cast boolits is to shoot more, and shooting more breeds familiarity with your gun, and familiarity with your gun is what breeds success.

So shoot more and you'll be able to shoot farther! Really this is the only real answer to the OP's question.

Randy

[Larry Gibson]

"Ethics" in hunting is like arguing religion or what makes a "good" woman.....or car for that matter......

To answer the question disgarding any ethics but relying on shooting skill in the field: How far I would shoot at a deer or pig with the 30-30 using a cast bullet depends on numerous things, most on the "conditions" of the shot. Assuming perfect conditions of a standing broadside shot with clear visability, little wind and a solid resst/position how far then would depend on the load and rifle used. With my M94 Carbine/Lyman reciever sight and my 311041HP at 2050 fps I would take the shot to 200 yards. With my M94AE/2.5X scope and the same load at 2250 fps I would take the shot to 250 yards. I wouldn't take a shot past 150 yards with either rifle or any load past 150 yards if the rifles had the origianl iron sights on them....my old eyes is why and ethics has nothing to do with it.

Larry Gibson

[6pt-sika]

If you can't consistantly hit the chickens at 200 Meters you probably shouldn't shoot any farther than that at an animal. If you can hit 3-4 from standing then you could probably do pretty good off a rest.


I used to put on lever silhouette matches at my club .

While we never tried chickens at 200 meters it always seemed to me that the majority of people (myself included) did better on the rams at 200 meters then they did on the turkeys at 150 meters !

Standing and shooting I was happy when I got 6 or 7 turkeys and the same at rams . From the bench I'd get them all usually with peep sights .

Scopes on the lever actions at 200 meters made it a little montonouse from the bench .

Granted that doesn't say a whole lot for the majority of the deer hunters in the world . But in my own situation 99.5% of all the deer I shoot are shot from a treestand where I have a rail and I can lock myself in almost as if I was shooting from the bench .

My herd of 444's are all scoped and all sighted in 1 1/2" high at 100 yards . So in all actuality "if" I had a place where I could shoot 200 yards when hunting I no longer think I'd be handicapped shooting my 444's rather then one of our Ruger #1's in a nice bottle neck fire breathing cartridge that I also happen to own .

[Bret4207]

I think 150 yards is a good general maximum limit for the 35 and 30-30.......and every other cartridge out there! Hail Marys shots = fat coyotes. That's ethics for ya.

[Reload3006]

I am not sure I understood the question. It doesn't matter the rounds capability so much as the shooters. I have a great 308 and a pretty good 30-06 they are capable of 600+ yard shots ... I however am not. Same with my 30-30 its capable of probably 150-200 I however am not. So the question of Ethics IMHO is honesty with self. the question should be always before you pull that trigger can I make that shot and do I know for certain what is behind it? even with my glasses on a good rest and perfect conditions I am not sure I would take the shot at 150. But that is me if i were a lot younger more practiced and have consistently made shots like that it would be ethical. Green no practice no rest etc it would no be ethical. The Ethics part for me comes to the shooter. not the gun or round.

[W.R.Buchanan]

6pt-sika: I was talking about shooting chickens at 200 meters on the full 500 meter silhoutte course. Chickens being about the same size as the vital zone on a deer.

That said, a hit on a ram on the Cowboy course at 200yds with an iron sighted rifle is very satisfying. The sound that the 250 gr LBT WFN from my Marlin .44 rifle made when it connected is one I will never forget. The target went down with authority.

The noise was roughly,,, "WHHHAPT-O" followed by a metalic kerplunk when the target hit the ground.

Randy

[geargnasher]

The next time a guy tells me my antique with cast bullets is useless past 50 yards I have a reply. "Would you like me to teach you how to hunt that close?"


Either you can make the shot or not, you should know right from wrong simply based on that.

Oh you can't really say you can "make the shot" until you have actually done it about 100 times.

The whole reason we cast boolits is to shoot more, and shooting more breeds familiarity with your gun, and familiarity with your gun is what breeds success.

So shoot more and you'll be able to shoot farther! Really this is the only real answer to the OP's question.

Randy

Selected excerpts from particularly outstanding posts.

Ballistically, 150 yards is the reasonable limit. The limit of the average shooter with such guns is much less. I'm an average shooter, sometimes below average, but I know my guns very well at 50,75, and 100 yards, and can judge that distance reliably in all kinds of conditions. I know how to HUNT, so I don't need to shoot farther. So far I've never lost a deer.

Gear

[Boerrancher]

In my younger days and up until my late 30's I have made some very impossible long distance shots, on game animals and targets between 800 and 1000 yards, but they were not done with the 30-30 or the 35 rem. I was using 7mm Remington and 300 Winchester Mags with the best optics money could buy at the time. Would I do it now? No, my reflexes and eyesight are not that good any more, even with a good scope designed for such things. I have also learned that too many things can go wrong from the time you squeeze the trigger until the projectile strikes the target.

I will still stick with the notion I stated earlier that for the average 30-30 and 35Rem and the average guy pulling the trigger 150 yards is about max if that. Now I killed a deer last year with my 45LC rifle with open sights at 150+yards, but I have shot that rifle so much that I know it better than the back of my hand. I was on one hill side and it was on the other with a small creek valley between us. It was at the edge of the woods, and I thought it was an easy shot and I took it. The little buck dropped dead right there on the spot. Would I have taken the same shot with my 94 Winnie 30-30? Probably not, because I don't shoot it enough to feel comfortable with it to make those long shots. Inside of 100 yards with my 30-30 no problem. There are too many things to factor in to say something is an ethical shot or not, and as pointed out lots of times shooter ability is the key one.

Best wishes,

Joe

[Judan_454]

I guess it depends on the skill of the shooter,how much shooting he has done in the off season to know where the gun shoots at different ranges. If you can shoot and hit 8 inch paper plate at different ranges out to 200 yds I would say you would be fine to take the shot.

[Rick Hodges]

I was once on a guided Pronghorn Antelope hunt in central Montana. There was a gentleman there, a Veterinarian from either Washington State or Oregon. He was there primarily to hunt birds (huns, pheasants and sharptails) with his shorthair pointers. The outfitter didn't run bird hunts, they were included with big game hunts after you tagged out. He brought his only high powered rifle, an iron sighted Winchester 94 Commemorative complete with medallion inleted in the butt stock. It was the only rifle he owned and got it as a gift when a teenager. He shot the largest antelope in camp at something like 260 yds. with one shot and thought nothing of it.

The man had shot that rifle exclusively for some 20-30 years. The 30-30 is quite effective at 200+ yds. it is the indian, not the bow.:drinks:

[atr]

I practice alot with my Savage 340 30-30. Its scoped so my eyes are not the limiting factor. Because of the practice I feel comfortable hitting targets out to that 150-175 yd range given a good rest. Holding steady without a rest is my limiting factor. Free standing without a rest I would say 75 yds is my maximum comfort limit. Within those parameters I can consistantly hit a pie tin which would pretty much account for a vital area.

[bowfin]

At what range do you practice? If you can consistently hit a "vitals sized" target at 200 yards, then you can try that shot in the field with a clean conscience.

If you shoot 100 yard targets all the time, then I would think that would be your maximum range.

Not knowing your sights, your skills, or the target, you probably have more pieces of the puzzle than I do.

I can say that the .35 Remington vs. the .30-30 would probably be splitting hairs.

[izzyjoe]

well for me, i have practiced out of my deer stand. it has a rest all the way around, and i've stepped off the yardage in several direction's so i know what is for sure, cause sometimes it's hard to judge distance. but using a 270 win. and a 3x9 scope, using paper plates on a big cardboard backer, starting at 100yd., 200yd., 300yd. i found that i had trouble hitting the 300yd target consistently, cause that's a long way for me. so that tells me my max. shooting range with a 270 on a perfect day. so 250yd is as far as i'm shooting. that's the key, practice where you're gona be huntin' if possible, and know the range well. i've never used a 30-30 on that stand, cause i know what works for me. but i practice with my 30-30 at 100yd. alot, so 75yd to 100yd. would be my max with it. :razz:

[TXGunNut]

It was the only rifle he owned and got it as a gift when a teenager. He shot the largest antelope in camp at something like 260 yds. with one shot and thought nothing of it.-Rick Hodges


Beware the man with one rifle....
Being a bird hunter he hasn't hung out with big game hunters enough to know that the minimum rifle for antelope is a 300WM with a 180 gr j-bullet doing 3K or better.

[Suo Gan]

The guy that can cleanly take game beyond 150 yards with his 30-30 and buckhorn or a peep and a factory front blade is a rare bird (you might be one). I would stretch it to include a peep sight, but I have found many who have peep sights on their rifles can shoot pretty well so maybe add a few yards to that. But when your front sight is entirely covering the animal it is getting sketchy and might be time to leave the ego in the truck. Scoped I would say that 200+ yard shots could be made with a 30-30 in many situations because it is all about shot placement.

There is a sentiment floating around the net that makes me raise my eyebrows. There seems to be near contempt for newer cartridges or even cartridges that have a surplus of energy. This is like having a V8 in your SUV. You really do not need it most of the time, but when you do, it is NICE to have it there when you need it.

The price of gas, lodging, etc is high these days. If I was going to Wyoming on an antelope hunt I will confess to you that I would not bring a long a 30-30 and think I was well prepared. I use a framing hammer AND a 16 oz claw hammer and do not try to make one out of the other.

Guns are only tools, and the proper tool in the right hands can really perform miracles. Thankfully the Lord has blessed me with an assortment!

Here's to good shooting and lots of game.

[Good Cheer]

The original question indicated cast so I will answer accordingly concerning deer.
Assuming the barrel is long, the action strong and the load is tailored to be an expanding cast bullet hunting load, then test for adequate accuracy and expansion to determine the maximum useful range.
I don't know a better way to answer the question.

If you had two Ruger No.1's with 26" barrels, one chambered for 30-30 and one for 35 Rem, I'd want to take the 35 and make cast work at 200 yards. In a lever action with a 22" barrel, 100 yards.

[Bret4207]

Suo Gan, I can remember when a 16 ox claw hammer WAS a framing hammer! Hammers, guns, cordless drills...more power, arrrrgghhhh!

[Boerrancher]

I get dirty looks from guys that don't really know me when I tell them that in the last 3 or 4 years I have killed more deer with my Mod 92 in 45LC with a cast lead bullet. I guess over the last 100 years deer have gotten so tough and hard to kill that you have to have a Magnum cal and a barns solid to kill one. I soon suspect that in another few years the 22mag will be too small for squirrels and one will need a center fire like a 357mag. I totally agree with Bret, "guns, cordless drills...more power, arrrrgghhhh."

Best wishes,
Joe

[atr]

Joe I know the feeling !
I usually hunt with a 30-30 or 7x57 and guys think I am way under-gunned. What the heck I have even downed deer with my "backyard" .410

[nanuk]

I'm not sure there is a simple answer to the OP's question

I have been researching data on the 3030 as I have a couple 219's coming.

what I found is interesting.

it seems in a strong rifle, such as a bolt, there are published loads that show a 110gr JSP at over 3000fps with RL7 (Rx7?)

now, if a 250-3000 can be a hunting round to 300 yds with 100gr bullets at 2850, then I see no reason a 3030, loaded with say 311359 at 2900, if one could actually get it to shoot accurately, would not fall into the same catagory.

the question is not really about the round, but the gun and shooter.

is the gun able to handle the pressures at that speed? Can it shoot it accurately? Can the shooter place the shot?

I would think a savage 99 would come very close to those parameters. and a bolt gun surely would.

[MGySgt]

While I have hunted with the 30-30 on occassion - as a youngester I was told to keep my shots to 150 or less.

Just for informational purposes - I checked the Hornady manual for balistics.

A 150 grain round nose starting out at 2200 FPS (which is the high end for a cast) will be doing a little over 1400 FPS at 200 yards. That is 357 mag range at the muzzel.

Now add a FP 170 grain boolit at the same velocity, I would bet it would be down to a max 1400 FPS.

Personally I don't believe that the balistics are adequate for any thing other than a standing broad side and then I think that it would be marginal at best. If the deer was only slighty angled you hit a lttle forward - whould you get to the boiler room?

150 yards you have an extra 200 FPS to 1600 FPS. I don't know the balistic coefficent of the RD 311 165 which appears to be a great boolit - but with that Flat Point I will bet it isn't as high as a Hornady 150 RN

Just my 2 cents worth.

Not me over 150.

[northmn]

I took a very nice deer with a 30-30 from a treestand,where I could rest the rifle at 140 steps from the tree (whatever those steps may be) The bullet performed beautifully and the deer was laying on its stomach and had to be kicked over to be dressed, It did not go more than 10steps. That was using a cast bullet at about 1950 at the muzzle. All I can say is that it worked well.

DP

[Suo Gan]

Suo Gan, I can remember when a 16 ox claw hammer WAS a framing hammer! Hammers, guns, cordless drills...more power, arrrrgghhhh!

Don't throw the baby out with the bathwater now. There are good and bad things that come down the pike (this is how the 30-30 came about right?). Extreme overkill is something that makes many of us want to revert to a time when 'just enough' was part of everyday life. But, I remember grandpa and uncles complaining about the 30-30 but they loved a model 94 and wished it could be chambered in a more powerful cartridge. Viola 307 Win! Those were the answer to a lot of prayers and I am sure Winchester was scratching their heads at the lack of sales. It was definitely not because the 30-30 was a better cartridge. I can hazard a guess that most of the 30WCF success has to do (and still does) with the fact that 30-30 ammo is made by the cargo tanker load and sold for half or third the price of others. I think that a 30-30 makes a great 100 yard deer gun. If I am moving out where there is less cover I go for something with more legs and a scope.

If there is a point to the endless discussion about the 30-30 it is that human beings are fickle, prone to exaggeration of their own skill, and cheap :razz:.

[303Guy]

While we never tried chickens at 200 meters it always seemed to me that the majority of people (myself included) did better on the rams at 200 meters then they did on the turkeys at 150 meters !Turkeys are the hardest to hit. It's their shape!

I'm in the 150yd limit school of thought. My one and only big red deer was at an extreme range but a good solid hit (with a mild j-word load in 303 Brit) and although the internal damage was massive with an exit, the deer ran off. Fortunately it couldn't jump the fence like the others. I measured the range with a GPS - 160 meters! Even 100 yds seems far in the field. To me anyway. Yet I know I can place my shots at 200.

[KCSO]

The advantage to the 30-30 and the 35 Remington iis that cast bullets can be launched with the same velocity as a jacketed slug so there is little difference in range. I have killed deer with cast in both calibers and inside 150 yards I can't see a lot of difference. Dead being dead the 30-30 deer went maybe 10 yards farther. The advantage is on bigger game where the 35 has more knockdown.

[6pt-sika]

Even 100 yds seems far in the field. To me anyway. Yet I know I can place my shots at 200.

A nice new Laser Rangefinder is a wonderfull thing . Especially if a person has time to use one or has atleast lasered trees at the furthest shot distances before the creature arrives !

[TXGunNut]

I won't laser a critter (doesn't work well anyway) but will laser points on a sendero and decide what my max shot is in each direction. When a critter shows up it's binoc or scope time to evaluate the critter. Making the distance call early in the hunt lets you focus on the critter and shot placement.

[Boerrancher]

I don't have a range finder but have always been pretty good at judging distance, years in the military helped improve on that skill. I have always when I sit down to hunt pick out various target reference points at various distances. This gives me an idea of how far a critter is when I see it, and don't have to think about the distance. If it is near the big black oak that I earlier determined was 50 yards away I know I have approx. a 50 yard shot. If it is by the big rock 90 yards away I know I have close to a 90 yard shot. All of the quick guestimations are eliminated. If the deer is walking quickly through the area I don't have to think about anything other than making the shot.

Best wishes,

Joe

[shdwlkr]

Three things govern how far a given rifle is effective
1 how well the shooter knows the capabilities of the caliber being used
2 how good is the shooter with that firearm
3 last is does the shooter know when it is time to pass on a shot

[pdawg_shooter]

If I cant get within about 150yds I am not hunting, just shooting. That's why I call it prairie dog shooting. I have never taken a shot at anything bigger than a coyote at over 150yds or so and don't think I ever will. Too much respect for game animals I guess.

[shdwlkr]

I have shot farther than 150 yards but that was decades ago and now I prefer 80-150 yards for all my shooting just because these tired eyes tell me that is the right distance and I really don't find tracking game a whole lot of fun anymore.
So yes the 30-30, .375 Winchester, 45-70 all fit real nice into my hunting but I still have some long range stuff also and can still use it because I know it and it feels right.
As I said it is whole lot more than a caliber, and what it can do. A lot depends on the person shooting it and how well he knows the limitations of what he is using and his abilities as a shooter hunter.
I have to laugh at these folks who think 300 plus yards is as close as one can expect to get to an lets say elk so they need those big magnum calibers to reach out there. But the strange thing is back in the day a 30-30 or a 45-70 would just fine and to they still do just fine just might take a little longer to get a little closer to the animal. Oh well I guess the term "hunting " has changed over the years.

[pdawg_shooter]

"QUOTE" Oh well I guess the term "hunting " has changed over the years.

Not for me it hasn't. I would rather spend all day getting close than flinging away at some un-Godly range.

[6pt-sika]

"If I cant get within about 150yds I am not hunting, just shooting."



My "hunting" consists of sitting in a tree waiting for a deer or bear to come by !

Now if I'm "sitting" in a tree and the deer comes by at 6 yards or 600 yards technically it's "hunting" . But I'm inclined to agree with you that in that circumstance it's "deer or bear shooting" regardless if it's 6 or 600 yards . But on the other hand the majority of the deer and bear I've killed have been closer to 50 yards then to 100 . And the amount I've shot past 150 yards can be counted on my fingers .

[Boerrancher]

As many of you know I hunt a great deal with primitive archery. A bow cut from a stave of hickory, hand cut fir arrow shafts, turkey feather fletching, and hand chipped stone broad heads have taken more deer than I can remember. As I have said in other posts I have made some unrealistic shots in my time, but that is what it was, shooting. The critter never had a chance and didn't think there was a human close enough to pose any threat. I knew how the rifle shot and I took it, because I needed meat, but it wasn't hunting, just me using my once dang good shooting ability. Now I pride myself if I get blood splatter on my when I pull the trigger, which brings me back to primitive archery. You have got to get close, and I try and take that approach now even with a firearm on deer, but I still wouldn't shoot more than 150 yds my 30-30 or a 35 rem.

Best wishes,

Joe

[nanuk]

I posted a couple links a long time ago to some long range shooting (hunting) threads on another forum.
there was quite the discussion on what was ethical, and there were many who thought out to 800 yds was just fine, thank you very much.

these discussions are fun, but you will never get a consensus, cause we all have our own limits and ethics

[Dirty30]

I have a lyman #2 on my model 94 and feel very confident with it. I have killed a deer right at 200 yds shooting 173gr GC boolit over 3031. It is very effective out to that range. Most of my hunting is on open prarie in Wyoming. If I can get closer I certainly try to, but with a good load and good sights, I don't think it is unethical to take a shot over 150. As for the 35 I have no idea.

[popper]

MGySgt: Rd-165 BC = .33. 160 FTX = .31 Don't have the number for the 150 C-L.

[jimkim]

If you want to make it completely ethical only take head shots. You either miss, or kill. We used to do that back when my eyes still worked. Killed one doe with a bullet "through" her jaw. She didn't even twitch. It broke her neck and blew her jaw off.

To be completely honest, I grew up in the woods, and learned to stalk. If it's a hard shot, I get closer.

[lotech]

Unless a .30 caliber cast bullet is fairly soft and has a relatively high muzzle velocity (two factors that don't often mesh well), expansion may be unpredictable to non-existent at any extended range. Hollow point bullets certainly improve things here. I've shot deer with .30 caliber cast bullets. They work, but I consider them minimal unless one is very skilled at placing shots. Larger diameter, heavier bullets work better, especially as range increases.

[pdawg_shooter]

Unless a .30 caliber cast bullet is fairly soft and has a relatively high muzzle velocity (two factors that don't often mesh well), expansion may be unpredictable to non-existent at any extended range. Hollow point bullets certainly improve things here. I've shot deer with .30 caliber cast bullets. They work, but I consider them minimal unless one is very skilled at placing shots. Larger diameter, heavier bullets work better, especially as range increases.

They do mesh well IF you paper patch. 2200/2250fps works real well with paper patching. ACWW can be pushed upwards of 2600fps with paper. Makes a great game bullet.

[Boerrancher]

I push my CG cast boolits at 2200+ fps out of my 30-30 with no problems. They generally leave a 2 inch sized hole where they exit the ribs on the other side. I use a soft 50%pure and 50% WW alloy. I would suspect by the exit hole the bullet is somewhere between a nickle and quarter in size. Nothing has ever gotten away from that 30-30 and I have never had to shoot something twice.

Best wishes,

Joe

[Bret4207]

I agree with those who advocate the idea of the closer, the better. Myself, I think if 99.9% of the guys out there were given a 7x57 with a scope of no more than 2.5X we'd have a lot less wounded deer and obese coyotes. I've seen the results of the Hail Mary shooters. Yup, there are those few who can actually judge distance and wind and make an ethical and successful shot at 200 plus yards. The rest of us are just mumbling, "Hail Mary, full of grace...".

The real issue, IMO anyway, is that the average guy that buys the 399 Supertacticaleliteninja rifle sticks a 16X scope on it and thinks that because he can see the deer and has a Sooperninjadepletedurainiumlaserbullet with a factory MV of 55,987 fps that he's just fine taking the shot. After he yanks the rigger and gets the blood staunched from the cut over his eye he looks and doesn't see a deer laying there and since that deer was eleventy-seven hundred yards away he won't leave the stand and waddle over to check for blood or hair. That's the real crime IMO. Give that dope a 7x57 or 257 Roberts and make him work within a reasonable distance and he might actually recover a deer.

[MGySgt]

+1 Bret

[MT Gianni]

It is such a different question for all of us. Suppose your nephew wounds a deer, he has no shot and you see the deer bleeding from a gut shot, next to the tree you ranged @ 163 yards. Shoot or not.
Iron sights on a Mod 94, receiver sights, scoped 788, 340 or Win 54. It isn't the cartridge that is the limiting factor. I remember the 70's when the big thing with a contender was to take the 30-30, shorten the powder capacity to 30 Herrett, put it in a 10" bbl and all of a sudden it's a 300 yard killer while the mod 94 was a 100 yard gun barely fit for fawns if you believed the Gun Magazines. It is the shooter and how well he knows his equipment.

[bowfin]

Being a bird hunter he hasn't hung out with big game hunters enough to know that the minimum rifle for antelope is a 300WM with a 180 gr j-bullet doing 3K or better.

When the wind blows down your tent the morning of the hunt, a .300WM with a 180 gr. j-bullet doing 3K or better is probably a good place to start.

Maybe wind is not a factor where you hunt, but it is a BIG factor in many places I hunt. In fact, it is sometimes the overriding factor as to how I hunt and what rifle and cartridge I use.

If one hunts out of a tree stand in the back woods lot and has all season to hunt the deer trail that passes directly beneath, then I guess that person can live all of his life without seeing the advantages of a belted (or beltless) magnum. However, when one has to drive 400 miles to hunt two days on public land with spooked antelope and a gentle breeze wafting out of the Northwest at 25-40 mph, a big, fat cartridge with a long pointy bullet can definitely make a difference on whether your tag goes home in your pocket or tied to an antelope.

[shdwlkr]

I will agree the sights on a standard 30-30 type rifle do limit its capacity or do they just make ethical shots seem the norm.

Bret you have no idea the number of "hunters" and I use the term loosely with the newest caliber that gun writer super stud has said is the very smallest caliber to hunt anything with and don't forget to get the tripod and the trailer so you lug this thing up and down the mountain in style.

I have watched a few take the Hail Mary shot and then walk away thinking they didn't connect to find a wounded animal in pain that had to be put down and you could not even use the meat because of the mess that super cannon had made in the animal.


When we talk of hunting and read what the so called gun experts think is the best or worst caliber I have to wonder anymore just what are they thinking when they say you need a magnum of such and such caliber to hunt with. I have even read a couple of articles that have said that maybe a 50 BMG is the right size to hunt I think it was antelope as you just can't get that close to them anymore as they are so much smarter today.

Personally I have all the old calibers that I can get my hands on why? first I like them, second they seem to get the job done if I do my part and lastly they cost the least to feed sometimes. Yea I have a few that $3 each round is the factory price but I tend to not buy factory as some of them are custom made only now and some are just plain to rich for my thin wallet.

You see that is one reason I found this group was so I could shoot my calibers and not add the national debt doing so. Besides I am an old man that enjoys the calibers of my youth and realize from the military all to well that what some folks right in a magazine just does not happen in real life.

I have yet to see where a caliber of say 243, 257bob, 7x57, 308, 270, 06, and a whole lot more would not do all the hunting in the lower 48 states and even most of it in Alaska for most hunters. I have seen some who can handle a magnum caliber and hit what they are aiming at and that is all well and good if you can afford to burn that much powder, pay that much for the rifle and learn how it works. Most of us are just plain average shooters sorry but it is true if we had to hit a target in the kill zone at 600 yards many of us couldn't even see it let alone hit it and those that could see it would take a fair amount of shooting to hit it in the kill zone.
Now move the target up to say 175 yards and most could hit it all day long and as it comes in closer we get better at hitting the target or do we? Could it be it is better defined for our eyes and abilities and thus gives us more confidence in being able to hit our target? Forty years ago I could see much farther than today and that is just life and I accept it and have adjusted my range of shooting to go with this fact of life some think that a larger caliber will make up for poor marksmanship, poor shooting abilities and lack of desire, skill or time to hunt I mean really hunt anymore.

Here in the west where I now live Elk hunting is a big deal and I have friends who do so and listen when they talk about the hunt they just finished. Most who ended up with an elk shot them at around 80 yards and one guy said he measured his and it was a whole 97 yards away when he shot it and most only fired one shot. Now the really strange thing is that it doesn't seem to matter that it was a 270, 30-06 or one of those big magnums the elk still fell dead when hit with a bullet. I have even read of a lady guide who carries a 25-06 when taking clients out to hunt elk and many times she loans them her rifle to get their elk and leave the new magnum in the tent or truck. I remember her article about the city due who had just got himself a new high caliber magnum to hunt elk and he was determined to hunt with the new rifle but there was just one problem he had a flinch that could send the bullet off target by 100 yards he jerked so bad when he pulled the trigger. He got his elk with the guide's little 25-06 and traded his magnum in on a 25-06 because he didn't flinch, jerk or miss the whole target with it because it didn't hit him like a freight train every time he pulled the trigger.

Now I don't know about many of you but I don't like my shoulder being pushed way back into the next township when I pull the trigger, don't like my teeth rattling around in my head when I pull the trigger and I really don't like the scope if I have one on the rifle redesigning my face either so I shoot standard calibers that I can handle and enjoy the limits that imposes on my hunting.

[Bret4207]

It is such a different question for all of us. Suppose your nephew wounds a deer, he has no shot and you see the deer bleeding from a gut shot, next to the tree you ranged @ 163 yards. Shoot or not.


That's where you hold your best and try to recover your deer. That's a little different than the boys with the 338 RUM taking the "about 500 yards" (anything from 225 to 850 actual yards) offhand at a walking deer. The sad part it they hit enough times that it encourages them.

[MGySgt]

shdwlkr - I remember a hunt I wnet on in CO. One of the 'Hunters' showed up in camp with a brand new whatever magnum.

This 'hunter' proceded to miss 2 elk on opening day (I didn't even see one that day). Day 2 he missed another one.

The outfitter asked how his rifle was zeroed - He didn't know - the sales clerk at the sporting goods stored mounted his scope and bore sighted it - handed him the rifle and told him he was good to go! The first time he shoot it was when he shot at the first elk on opening morning!

Oh yea - the scope was loose too!

My last few Elk hunts I used a repro 1866 Sharps Business Rifle in 45/90. Before that it was my 45/70 Guide Gun - Both brought the meat home!

[bowfin]

Speed kills. Speed with big bullets kill even better.

I see that at the 400 yard target berm, I have seen that out in the Oglala National Grasslands and in Wyoming and a half dozen points in between.

I hope to see that tonight, as the wind is supposed to drop down to 25 mph, as the deer come out to cut the corner of a quarter section pasture.

[shdwlkr]

Mgysgt
I am assuming your are a former or current Master Gunnery Sargent is that correct? My only reason for asking is you were taught how to shoot and how to kill and there is a difference.
I only made to E7 in seven years was up for E8 when I walked away to much BS to deal with and it was in the Army. You know be all you can be, as long we get to tell you what that is.
Yep way to many thing the individual behind the counter knows something.

Bret
your comments are oh so true and the worst part what if there is a human animal on the back side of that game animal and you score a double hit?
I really hate the mentality that says you have to have a magnum to hunt or you should stay home.
I know some are good with a magnum and responsible hunters but way to many are not and wound way more than they bring home and never even many times bother to see if they connected or not if the animal "walks off" it must have been a miss not a badly placed shot.
I have developed a new fondness for getting rid of coyotes and they are really nothing but natures killers and make wolves look like the good guys in the woods.
Nope I am not happy with wolves either but coyotes are just plain bad sort of like the wild pigs in Texas and some other places.
Do I think there is a place for wolves and coyotes yes but not in my area. I like my pets, I like hunting elk and deer and such and those two critters do too so we have and instant dislike for each other and I will do all I can to make sure they know were I stand on the issue.

[Dirty30]

I've always hunted antelope and deer on the windy plains of Wyoming and didn't need a belted cartridge. My freezer is full of delicious animal protein that was taken with a .50 cal caplock (traditional of course) or 30-06, or 30-30. I know a guy who hunts antelope with a 375 Ultra Mag and I personally think it's perverse. That guy has wrecked enough good meat to shame 10 ethical hunters. I don't think a season has passed yet when we didn't leave our hunting area cursing the out of staters taking half mile shots from the county road and wounding antelope or deer. If a guy can't make a stalk and a good shot even on the plains, he has no business hunting there to start with. According to the Wyoming game and fish department .243 is the minimum to hunt big game, and it's a darn fine place to start.

[pdawg_shooter]

[QUOTE] If a guy can't make a stalk and a good shot even on the plains, he has no business hunting.

My feelings exactly. If your are not willing to learn to HUNT, as opposed to just shooting, stay home.

[bowfin]

If your are not willing to learn to HUNT, as opposed to just shooting, stay home

So as to not hijack this thread any further, I think I need to start a different one.

[MGySgt]

Mgysgt
I am assuming your are a former or current Master Gunnery Sargent is that correct? My only reason for asking is you were taught how to shoot and how to kill and there is a difference.

Yep - I am a Master Gunnery Sergeant, retired after 26 years on active duty - Once a Marine Always a Marine.

Yes we were taught our basic mission:

Close with the enemy and destroy them by fire and maneuver'

We are taught the basics of good shooting form and how to aim our service rifle (guess that is why I prefer peep sights) in boot camp. My first service rifle was an M-14 - Heavy SOB but hit hard as far as you could hit with it - for me 500 yards on a man target was no problem with center mass hits (or head shots if it wasn't qual day :) )
Marksmanship is part of our training for every active duty Marine on a regular basis. The 03's (infranty) trained 12 months a year - maybe not with live ammo, but they were training in our basic mission.

The non 03's trained on an annual basis - unless we were deploying to a hot spot - then we went through more weapons training.

Long story short - we are taught to shoot, not only close combat but far (500 yards is part of our qualification), taught about wind drift and mirage - there really isn't much different in the marksmanship we were taught and what is required in hunting.

[Reload3006]

As was stated the OP asked what would be an ethical shot with a 30-30 and further asked if the 35 Remington would extend his range. How this turned into a Magnum shooter versus hunter issue is beyond me.

Ethics and an ethical shot depends on the effective range of the Round in this case IMO 200 yds max. for both rounds. Normally less on personal ability.

As far as hunting or hunters are concerned. If you are enjoying your sport. Cleanly taking your prey. Do you really give a dang if someone else thinks your a hunter or a shooter? Folks we need to get real and get off our soap boxes just read this thread and ask why no kids want to get into hunting. Instead of encouraging and endorsing the sport we are tearing each other down. Kind of like the Rolling Stones song I cant get no satisfaction, He cant be a man because he dont smoke the same cigarettes as me"
REALLY!!!!!!
Give me a break.

[Boerrancher]

Reload 3006, it turned into Magnum vs Regular rounds because folks believe what the read in the hunting magazine articles which in most cases were probably written from a bar stool in the middle of New York City or L.A. As a kid growing up every fall my mother and father would take a 2 week trip out west to deer and antelope hunt. Mom used a 243win, and dad used a 6mm rem. They never failed to fill their tags and the animals weren't shot all to hell. One old man that was a family friend had a 30-30 in a Marlin 336, and a 44-40 in a Mod 92 Winchester. He was in his 70's and every year that he went out west filled both of his deer and antelope tags. He didn't feel handicapped with either. I would watch him get up on a high point and hang a white handkerchief on a piece of scrub brush early in the morning, and back off into the rocks and brush about 50 yards to wait. That evening when it was time to go collect all the hunters, he would be where we left him but with his antelope. You don't have to have bigger guns, you just have to be a smarter hunter. The old man knew the limits of his 30-30 and his 44-40. He was a true hunter and smarter than the critters he was hunting. He had been doing it that way since he was a kid, and wasn't about to mess with success.

Ethics is all about knowing what you and your firearm are capable of. I would rather hunt an African Lion with a 22-250, that I know I can put the bullet exactly were I want it to go, than hunt with a super duper uber big magnum that is going to kick the **** out of me and maybe cause me to flinch and either miss the target or make a bad shot. Don't get me wrong I own several Magnum rifles, but they are safe queens. I would any day of the week rather brag, "I slipped up on this big buck to about 20 ft and shot him with my 30-30," than say, "Well he was at the far end of the bean field about 800 yards away and I blasted him with my 300 win Mag." One way shows my ability to hunt and shoot, and the other only my ability to shoot, because that deer didn't even know I was there. I have done both, and have the first version of the story mounted on my wall several times over. The second version of the story I cut the antlers off and made knapping tools and knife handles out of them.

Best wishes,

Joe

[nanuk]

Boerrancher

also mixed into the fray is that the term 30-30 automatically means a Win94...

there are a few other rifles out there, that with a bit of handloading make the 30-30 into a 300yd gun, same as a 250-3000, or a 257Bob.

as I said earlier, I think the ethical distance has more to do with the capabilities of the shooter/gun/round.

take a good shooter, give him a Savage99 with a good scope, handloaded with a Barnes X 130gr or so, and you have a gun capable of taking ethical shots at near double the distance what a '94 lever with buckhorn sights can do.

[shdwlkr]

Personally I have no bone to pick with the hunter who can handle a magnum caliber I can't and the one I could I stupidly sold decades ago.
One has to learn what one can shoot and then to learn the limits of that firearm. Nothing more or less than that.
The issue today is that most if not all the gun magazines promote this big caliber myth to hunt almost anything. Makes you wonder when you only had a 50 or 54 caliber muzzle loader how in the world did you eat any meat. Or if we move a little more forward you had that single shot 45-70, 45-90 and again you made meat. By today's thinking that just isn't possible.
As to this thread drifting I am not sure it has as when we talk ethical shooting there is no limit on the calibers just on the cartridge and the shooter really.
As to the original post what is wrong with presenting options?

[pls1911]

I go with most folks, drawing the line at 150 yards.
In 40 years of hunting dee,r elk, pigs and whatever I can, I've only had to take one shot over 100 yards...the stalk is the best part of the hunt!!
150 yards will serve you well with a 30-30.
Having said that, if you move up to a heavier bullet and large cliber (45/70 MAYBE?) your ranges can be extended a LONG ways with practice.

[BAGTIC]

If you find yourself asking whether this shot is ethical or not you already have your answer. It probably isn't otherwise you wouldn't be asking.

[BAGTIC]

Suo Gan, I can remember when a 16 ox claw hammer WAS a framing hammer! Hammers, guns, cordless drills...more power, arrrrgghhhh!

Where I came from a 16 oz hammer was what the lady of the house kept in a kitchen drawer. A man used a man's hammer.

[BAGTIC]

When things don't go the way we hope it is usually easier to blame the equipment than the shooter.

[wtfooptimax200]

Great discussion!

[Blackwater]

A friend who once used a chopped down M-94 .30/30 (16" bbl.) w. peep sight once shot a deer at just over 300 long steps with that rifle and 150 gr. WW Silvertips. The bullet didn't expand much at that distance, and he said he won't be shooting that far with one hence, but he shot that gun a LOT, and was a veritable magician with it - one of the finest shots I've ever known. He hit the deer almost dead center behind the shoulder, and the deer ran maybe 50-75 yds. and piled up just inside the woods. He was headed back to his stand, saw this buck standing out there daring him to shoot, but the deer apparently didn't know the man's reputation, and paid the price for that.

I wouldn't. Can't even see iron sights, for starters. But that doesn't mean he shouldn't have. He used to shoot that gun a LOT over the field in front of his house at that distance, and has made a fair amount of spendin' money when others bet he couldn't hit a coffee can at that distance. I don't recall his ever missing. He knew the sight setting and had eyes like an eagle.

Most folks forget that what's ethical for one may not be quite so much for another less gifted shooter. To hold everyone to the same standard makes about as much sense as holding people DOWN to a given standard just because some have extra talent, smarts or whatever.

The biggest problem with the .30/30 at distance is bullet expansion. It just sheds velocity way too fast with those round and flat pointed bullets. Most standard .30/30 bullets quit expanding like they ought to at about 250 yds., and even that is stretching it a bit probably. 200 yds. is the BULLET's best limit, IMO, whatever the talent of the shooter. However, we forget that a LOT of the tales of "Old Africa" of the 20's and 30's involve tales of game shot with FMJ military ammo, which was all too often all they could get.

ANY bullet in the right place is WAY more effective than most of us have come to believe, even the lowly .22 LR, provided only that it penetrates sufficiently. I used to be a probation officer and I got all the night hunting cases because everyone knew I hunted and loved it. Talk with them about how effective a .22 LR can be on deer - used by someone who knows how to shoot - and you won't believe what they tell you. Usually they just chuckle, knowing they won't be believed, and tell you the truth defiantly, and seemingly proud they know something most folks don't. I wan never convinced until an acquaintance who isn't really a hunter, but owns a farm and likes venison, told me a .22 was all he owned .... or NEEDED .... and that when they walked out, usually at somewhere around 50 yds., he just filled their lungs full of HP's, walked into the woods about 50 yds., and picked up his deer. Some were nice sized bucks for here, too - about 180 lbs. They fell as quick as any of the others.

Jack O'Connor was right. It really IS where ya' hit 'em!

[Canuck Bob]

I am dead against long range hunting, + 300 yards, and think the need to collect game has become more important than the older concept of a sporting shot or a true sportsman. We are sportsman not combat soldiers. Please note my favorite rifle was my old 105 Howitzer my second favorite is a FN-FAL C1.

My opinion is just that mine. If someone feels that a 400 yard elk shot is appropriate that is his business. But it is serious business and I find most hunters don't understand how hard it is to do that EVERY time one wants to. I also feel many guys talking about 32 Special for moose also fail to understand the full implications. I am one of those guys but know that it requires a true rifleman and a good hunter. One who hits what he aims at and easily decides that not shooting is the appropriate action.

The question of ethics is about not what I can do but what I should do. I'm trying to understand how the old ideas of sportsmanship fit in my world. My struggle with ethics always revolves around limiting my own behavior.

[rfroy]

Well said. I also agree that you first need to be a hunter and learn to hunt, not sit back and shoot something at 400+ yards.

[Boerrancher]

I don't see the issue of a 32 Win Special for a Moose. Dad's favorite moose round was a 6mm. The last time we went moose hunting, there were sever locals telling him he couldn't kill a moose with a 6mm. One fella even spouted off, "I had to shoot mine 6 times with my 30-06 and it still went over a half mile before we found it and finished it off with the camp axe." Give me freaking break. Dad went out that same day fired one shot with his 6mm like he always did, and we walked over and started field dressing it.

90% of the people who are out there in the woods with a gun don't have any business hunting a living creature, simply because they don't know how to choose a bullet that will deliver the maximum amount of energy to the animal, and not expend it on the trees, brush, rocks and dirt after it passed through. They read the hunting articles, written from bar stools that tell them they have to have a heavy bullet to leave a good blood trail. So to hunt a moose they grab a 30-06 with 220 gr round nose bullet that is moving slower than a 150 gr 30-30. Shoot the moose in the guts and hind quarters because they either can't shoot or they never bothered to zero the rifle, which means they can't shoot.

My grandfather never had anything other than a 22LR for years He was a farmer and largely fed his family by what he hunted, caught and grew. There is no telling how many deer he killed with that old Stevens 22, and I can assure you that none of them ended up as coyote bate. I grew up around shooters. Even the women folks thought nothing of going out and killing a mess of squirrels for the supper pot if the men were out. I run one of my cousins off and refuse to let him back on the farm because he is one of those folks that can't shoot, likes to try and shoot deer out of his headlights, uses a 270 with 150 grain bullets that punch a hole and when the deer run off he won't even go look. Bottom line he is an idiot like 90% of the people that go to the woods once a year with a gun. There is a big difference between ethics and idiocy, and most folks these days fall into the latter.

Best wishes,

Joe

[atr]

I think the key word is HUNTING. I separate "hunting" from "shooting"
Most guys don't have the patience or skills to get close to game, don't know the signs and how to read them. And they don't recognize their limitations when it comes to accurate shooting, most over-estimate their ability with the usual diasterous results.

[shdwlkr]

Funny I have passed up more shots in my life than I have made because it didn't feel right to me and yes some of them were within the range of my rifle.

One time a shot that I passed up ended up being a hunter just out of sight behind the deer I almost shot at.

I have been in the woods and enjoyed sound shooters thinking I was a deer. At over 6 feet tall and around 250 pounds and dressed in Orange I guess I do look like a deer.

We had a city fellow come into one of the small towns around where I grew up with a prized bull on his hood one year. He never forgot that hunt as he lost his right to hunt, his firearms and a great deal of money to pay for the bull and he lost the bull meat also.
We had another city fellow shoot a goat and come in displaying his unusual deer also. He didn't make out so well either.

Had one idiot almost take a shot at a doe with her fawn one year thinking it was a buck. Where do these people get their licenses out of a box of corn chips?

I am older now like about 45 years older than when I first started hunting. I will not go out alone anymore not even to target shoot just to easy for something to go wrong and no one around to help or take the body back to be buried. Yep we have to realize when it is time to slow down and not do things as we once did as it could be very sad ending.

I am looking at a ranch right now that the brother who is selling the ranch was hunting with his brother who died in his arms from a heart attack. We never know when our time is up but we should have the brains to learn our limits no matter our age and work with them not against them.
I want to go elk hunting but need someone to tag along and also not be upset when this old out of shape guy has to stop and catch his breath and rest his bad legs which is quite often now.
Oh well maybe one day I will get to do some hunting again if I live long enough and just maybe I will have some pics and a good story to go along with the pics.

[waksupi]

Joe, that reminds me of a happening down on the reservation some years ago.
One of the tribal timber crews were out doing surveys, and they came across a cow moose, with a broken leg.
They figured they should kill it, and eat it. So, Virgil takes an axe, works up his nerve to get close enough to the moose, and hits her right between the eyes.
The axe bounced off her head, she blinked, and made a short rush at him. If she hadn't been crippled, he would have been in trouble.
After a bit of discussion, they drove to a near by ranch, borrowed a .30-30, and had fresh moose.

[starmac]

New Mexico used to have game check stations, My wifes uncle took pictures of a station wagon with a gutted mule on top of it, sitting in line at the willard game check. He still has the pictures and the mule still had the shoes on it. lol

[1Shirt]

Probably a young man and skilled hunter with good eyes would have a practical range limit with a 30-30 with open sights/receiver sights/or scope to 150 yds. Today with Hornady soft tip pointed maybe even to 225-250 (scope only). That said, with age hopefully comes some wisdom and common sense. I doubt I would try a standing deer shot with an open sighted 30-30 much over 75 yds, and with a scope not much over 100. Note I am talking about a standing deer.
1Shirt!:coffeecom

[Boerrancher]

As has been mentioned several times over, ethical shots are largely based on ones skills and knowledge of their firearm. I like Shdwlkr, I have probably passed up more shots than I have taken, simply because I didn't like the situation. Also I never take out a firearm hunting if it doesn't shoot where I want it to. I have been fighting with my 1894c 357mag for a couple years now and refuse to take it to the woods because every once in a while it will throw one way out, no rhyme or reason as to why. I use it to shoot paper and tin cans. I don't even consider it a good for 'yotes anymore because of its erratic behavior.

The guns I do carry and use for game and varmints, all shoot to point of aim out to the distances they were designed to reasonable shoot. If they don't I send them down the road. The only reason I haven't shipped my 94c down the road is because it was my first center fire gun, and was given to me by a close friend of my father. I think the trouble is with the SWC bullets. I ran out of the longer bullets I use to shoot out of it. I know where all of my hunting guns shoot so I know where that bullet is going when I pull the trigger. I also know if it is going to hit high, low, left, or right of where I wanted to, because I know where the sights were when I pulled the trigger. When I go to the local public range most of the people shooting there don't understand how I can call my shots like I do, and give me a stupid look when I tell them I know how my gun shoots and I know where the sights were when the gun went off.

Best wishes,

Joe

[Canuck Bob]

Joe, I am fond of the 32 Special/30-30 team for moose. I certainly don't want anyone thinking I'm bad mouthing two fine rounds. I'll be carrying one in Grizzly country this summer while woods loafing. My only point was that folks should consider the full implications of thier decisions and choices when hunting.

In regards the OP question, unless my children were hungry I would limit myself to 100 paces on moose and elk and 150 paces on deer with a 30-30. When I was younger I stretched that by 50 paces each because I shoot only receiver sights. Personally I prefer heavier bullets so the 170 gr would be my choice but if deer was the only option in the field the lighter bullets would do fine. One nice thing about cartridges in these performance levels is that standard j bullets tend to perform as well as premium bullets. More importantly they handle cast very well.

I will be casting for my 32 Special over break-up so I have no direct experience to relate on cast. I research it alot and everyone seems real happy with the RCBS 170 gr FNGC mold.

[Boerrancher]

Bob,

I think you and I are both on the same page. It all comes down to the man behind the gun knowing both his and the rifles limitations. Most people who hunt these days are not shooters. They don't take the time to get to know their gun and know how to use it.

A good dependable firearm should be like a wife that you marry and go to bed with. Don't screw around it only messes with your mind. The same thing with a good gun. You need to know a lot of things about it that only experience and constant close familiarity will teach you, so when your focused on banging around with something else, it only serves to distract you form truly learning what your good dependable firearm is and isn't capable of.

Don't get me wrong I have and enjoy all kinds of firearms, but I only have one rifle and handgun that I share a very deep relationship with. Many of you may laugh at this and the above analogy, but it is very true. Just like this saying, "beware of the man who only has one gun. He probably knows how to use it." When it comes to guns and shooting the saying "Know thy self," is probably the most important factor in what is an ethical shot.

Best wishes,

Joe

[Canuck Bob]

Joe, we sure do think alike, sorry for you!

I am a shooter and like all firearms, particularly rifles. I tried a few action styles and modern cartridges until I bought my 444 years ago. I sold off all my centerfire rifles after that. After decades of use it is an extension of myself or vice versa I guess. I know without thought or hesitation what we can do and not do. It is like looking at my aim point and I hit it with both eyes open. Circumstances have ended big animal (moose) hunting for me and the greatest sadness is not excercising that trusty friend were it should be used. It now protects my family in Griz country, a noble working retirement.

I've cast about for a rifle that will become my second choice. I'm settling on a 32 Special in a 94. I plan on cast bullets so I can shoot alot and hunt deer. These 30-30 threads attract me like a fly to manure. The more I research the more I realize that these cartridges perform much better than most give them credit for. There are technical reasons why they work just as there are technical reasons why a 54 cal. patched ball from a muzzleloader works very well.

OP ...max200 take Joe's advice and shoot the 30-30 or 35 Rem (both are good to 150 and the plus for the 35 it pushes a heavier bullet and the 30-30 is available everywhere and very capable) until it becomes second nature. I knew excellent moose hunters when I was a kid in the Canadian bush who were terrible shots by scoped bolt benchrest standards until it counted. They usually scored one shot, one moose, black bear, or deer with thier lever actions.

[krag35]

+1 Brett hit it right on the head.

[10 ga]

In my long and varied outdoor experience, a good condition 30-30 with old fashioned flat point ammo can shoot better than about 95% of the people that hunt. Accuracy is way more important than the "power" of the gun. For most of the hunters I have met an "ethical" shot with that 30-30 would be about 85 yards. For some of the ones who can hunt and shoot, "ethical" range would be 200 yards. I always believe that if I do my part when the gun goes off the intended game should die pretty quick. Other than using my beloved 10 ga auto shotguns fairly often and the Savage MLII for ML hunting I usually use standard calibre guns that I can handle and are very accurate. My MLII and #10s are tricked and I practice with them and they are accurate. The question of "ethics" is also related to the value system of the person evaluating the situation. There is a local farmer that insists that every deer you see while hunting be shot at reguardless of the possible chance of actually hitting or killing it. He also has a "permit" from DoG to take deer when "damaging" his crops. Well he hates a deer, he uses a 22 WMR to gut shoot them in the summer so they run out of the fields into the woods and die and the vultures don't trample the crops when eating the deer. His "ethics" are considerably different from most any hunter you meet. For him the "ethical" shot with that 30-30 would be if you can see it shoot. Need to end the post even with much more to expound about. Best to all, 10 ga

[adrians]

150 yds for a killl shot ,,,,yes ,if you don't miind tracking for an hour or two.
ethical shot,for me ( shot placement is key and my eyes :veryconfu ) no..
my max is 100 +/- for a " drop where they stand " shot in my older win 94 30-30.
a bit farther with younger eyes ,which i no longer own.
as 9.3x62AL said a lyman///redfield peep helps out a bunch when you can't see past 20yds[smilie=1:
good shooting...:evil::groner::twisted:

[kootenay]

my 11 yr. old son piled his buck up in his tracks with his Stevens 325 scoped, with a 170 gr soft load 1800fps at the muzzle. I was amazed when I measured the distance 195 meters! my opinion of the 30/30 when way up at that point, the buck was a 4x4.
it will get the job done.

[Boerrancher]

my 11 yr. old son piled his buck up in his tracks with his Stevens 325 scoped, with a 170 gr soft load 1800fps at the muzzle. I was amazed when I measured the distance 195 meters! my opinion of the 30/30 when way up at that point, the buck was a 4x4.
it will get the job done.

Exactly. For years the 30-30 was an elk and moose cartridge, and the 32-20, 25-20, and the 25-35 along with the 32-40 were the rounds you used to hunt white tail. For some reason we have lost our ability to hunt and shoot, and need over bore magnums to compensate for our lack of ability to hunt (400 yard shots) and lack of ability to shoot(using magnums to blow holes big enough that even with a bad shot the animal still goes down, never mind it is no longer fit to eat). I have seen post about having to track game for hours when shot with a 30-30. If you have had these experiences, you probably need to practice shooting a bit more, so you can make those instant kill shots.

Best wishes,

Joe