My First .577 Snider Brass case and CB Loads.

[Mooseman]

These are My first .577 Snider Loads for My 1861 Rifle.
I pack a Beeswax plug in the rear of the 470 gr. Boolit and lube with Best-Lube !
70 gr. Of FFg BP and then a dacron Filler.

39349

39350

Rich

[zuke]

Look great,so congrat's are in order!
Make sure there a range report!

[frankenfab]

Wow. That is the coolest thing I have seen lately!

[Texnmidwest]

Nice!

[rollmyown]

Did you form your own from Magtec or is that factory brass? Either way well done, enjoy using them. Look foreword to reading your results. A pic of your Snider would be great too if you get a chance!

[swamp]

Mooseman,
They look great. Looking forward to see how they shoot.

swamp

[Mooseman]

Did you form your own from Magtec or is that factory brass? Either way well done, enjoy using them. Look foreword to reading your results. A pic of your Snider would be great too if you get a chance!

Swamp formed them for me after I cut down 24 ga. Magtech brass shells !
Fit was perfect
I will get a pic of the old Snider soon.
Rich

[Beekeeper]

Did you make the boolit mold?
I have a Nepal Snider and am in the process of trying to get it to shoot reasonably well
They have weird chambers and it is a little hard to get a boolit to fit the chamber and still make the rifling.
Next range trip will try a Lee .575 mini ball and hope for the best.

Buckshot origanally recommended a .600 round ball but sometimes have trouble chambering it so that is why am trying the smaller mini!


beekeeper

[swheeler]

MM; looks like you have makings of a moose masher:) Is that the Lee 58 cal Modern minie aka trashcan ?

[Dan Cash]

Swamp formed them for me after I cut down 24 ga. Magtech brass shells !
Fit was perfect
I will get a pic of the old Snider soon.
Rich

That Swamp is quite a guy. He formed some for me too.

[Mooseman]

MM; looks like you have makings of a moose masher:) Is that the Lee 58 cal Modern minie aka trashcan ?

It sure is the Lee MINIE Ball. Boolit using a soft lead /WW mix air dropped and unsized.
My gun seems to like them.
Flying Trashcan...I like that !
Beekeeper...A .600 roundball wont even begin to load in my cases and I sure wont try and shove .022 extra Diameter anything down one of these old rifles.
Rich

[swheeler]

MM; have you got any pictures of the rifle for us, we need pictures.:)

[Mooseman]

39427

39428

39429

Here it is...I got it in a trade years ago and it was all covered in rust, when I removed the rust it was rust blued underneath ! Too bad someone sporterized it because it is not one of the Nepal Guns.

Rich

[swheeler]

Nice thanks

[rollmyown]

For anyone that's interested, Accurate Molds, CBE (Australia), and Red River Rick all make molds for the .577 Snider.

[Buckshot]

..............I have 2 of'em. Both are MkII** actions. My first for which I have no photos is an as issued 3 band rifle with an 1858 dated lock. The 2nd is a carbine (cut down rifle) which was a gift to me from a friend in Canada. He dicovered I was fooling with one and asked if I'd like some Snider parts? I said, "Sure" and what he sent was the complete carbine minus the hammer screw!

http://www.fototime.com/35572699B1D8361/standard.jpghttp://www.fototime.com/1A15641CDD2AC93/standard.jpg

The lock on this one is dated 1861. The barrel had been hacksawed off and never re-crowned. I pulled the barrel and set it up in the lathe (in the left photo just aft of the muzzle you can see where the steady was running) and come to find out the bore was wobbeling "Many Thousandths", with the barrel running true. Come to find out it's not uncommon for the bore to 'Wander' a bit on it's journey from chamber to crown.

http://www.fototime.com/54B2534F933B3AD/standard.jpghttp://www.fototime.com/B9C212977516E0D/standard.jpg

LEFT PHOTO: I centerdrilled a piece of 5/8" brass rod, then turned down a 3" length, with a groove turned where the muzzle would be. It was then pressed into the barrel and setup on a live center. RIGHT PHOTO:I was then able to feed a tool in to create a crown on the muzzle.

http://www.fototime.com/13CE8BA4DA1EB3C/standard.jpghttp://www.fototime.com/F50698BFD63638B/standard.jpg

LEFT PHOTO:I installed my celebrated "Buckshot 'TRY' front sight" so I could get an idea how tall a front sight would be needed. Sidecutters make the required adjustments!RIGHT PHOTO: Ammo loaded up for range day. I have no idea now just what the loads consisted of. Those slugs in the blue box on the right are from a swage die I made to turn the Lee 500gr Minie' into a 500gr .590" Pritchit style Minie' with a HP.

..............Mooseman, "A .600 roundball wont even begin to load in my cases and I sure wont try and shove .022 extra Diameter anything down one of these old rifles."

HA, just wait. These things were chambered very casually so as to accept the original Boxer foil cartridges. Another thing is, the barrels have progressive depth grooves. The bore is constant generally running close to .580". At the breech the grooves will run .610"/.615". The reason your brass won't accept a .600" RB is because they haven't been FIRED yet! Once they have been, I'll betcha they will. The best accuracy I've attained to date has been with a Lee .600" RB cast of WW alloy.

http://www.fototime.com/C641FA66BF72CFB/standard.jpg

The above are and example of 3 slugs I swaged up in a .590" die I made for use with the Snider. FROM THE LEFT: The Lee REAL was used as the doner and 3 results are in various poses around it. In the middle is the Lee Target Minie' and on the right is a 540gr design from Challanger (now out of business). With the slow 72" twist, even though they used a 500gr Minie', generally lighter ones can be more accurate.

[Mooseman]

Thanks for that Buckshot!
My book shows the original load was a 480 gr hollow base Boolit with a wood nose plug exposed and in 1869 the lead was molded over the nose completely.
The diameter was .573 (14.55mm) and the bullet had a wax/clay plug in the hollow base. MV was 1250 fps...
I am as close to duplicating that Military load as I can get , with what was available to me here in the Boonies.
Nice work on those boolits.
I was using 28 ga Win AA hulls cut down and dumped and loaded with a BP load of 70 gr. with the same boolit and it was surprisingly accurate for a 1 shot Cartridge until I found these 24 ga. cases. Way cheaper than the 80 bucks or more for 20 preformed brass ( I think CB means Cheap Bastid and I fit right in ! LOL)
Rich

[Buckshot]

http://www.fototime.com/D41D95B7168B29D/standard.jpghttp://www.fototime.com/218D32F529AB41C/standard.jpg

LEFT PHOTO: Just for fun a comparison of 3 cases. The 577-450 (Bertram), then the 577 Snider (Mag-Tech), and then the well known 45-70. The die is a compression die I made (compression plug next to it) for the Snider. However the cases hold a TON. RIGHT PHOTO: On the left is the case expander as supplied in the Lee 577 dies. The cases are both Jamison. The one on the left is 'As recieved'. On the far right is a replacement case expander I made. It looks bent but isn't. My fool camera bends the outside edge of closeup photo's for some reason. The right case has made a trip up onto the new expander. Believe me you DON'T need the cases necked!

http://www.fototime.com/AD10AA21E7DA774/standard.jpghttp://www.fototime.com/81B27EA5C8B88C9/standard.jpg

LEFT PHOTO: Here's 30 rounds ready for range testing. Each row of 5 is a different load. These are all Mag-Tech cases I'd converted from the useless #56 Berdan primer to accept the 209 shotgun primer. When Mag-Tech came out with the cases accepting LP primers, Graf's was blowing out the old stock cheap so I bought several boxes of the 24 & 32ga shells. RIGHT PHOTO: These are both Jamison cases with the necks expanded. Left is a swaged 540gr Challanger, and on the right is a Lee .600" RB.

I case you're wondering wassup with those loaded rounds in the left picture, they've been "Lubed Summore" :-) The Snider is a glutten for lube. One of those loads consisted of:

5.0grs Elephant 2Fg
82.0 grs (volumn) Pyrodex RS
.070" wad, compressed.
1.6cc COW
.070" wad
.170" lube cookie
305gr, .600" RB seated and crimped

All those cartridges got that .170" lube cookie. Once they were all loaded, lube was melted in a double boiler and each was dipped into it.

http://www.fototime.com/6B7DDA0EB79A324/standard.jpg http://www.fototime.com/AAA154F8ADB8308/standard.jpg

Don't laugh, but these were the 2 best targets of those 6 different loads:-) Left target has 2 through that hole at 12 o'clock. The target on the right is dang near match grade, doncha think? :wink: That flyer is an absolute requirement. It keeps you humble.

..............Buckshot

[Mooseman]

Im wondering if your chamber is worn , because mine would not chamber without the bottleneck on the brass. When I did a chamber cast years ago it is a definite bottleneck chamber and these seem to fit perfectly so far. Cerrocast mic'ed at .576 on my bore and a major diameter of .579. I will see how the Best Lube performs with the beeswax rear plug.
Here is my first Test load for grins with local materials...Cost was 14.00 for 50 rounds !!!
39467
Regards,
Rich

[Andy_P]

I did the sabot in a Snider thing a few years ago and posted the results here:

http://britishmilitariaforums.yuku.com/topic/1101/Using-Sabots-in-the-Snider-UPDATE

[Mooseman]

I did the sabot in a Snider thing a few years ago and posted the results here:

http://britishmilitariaforums.yuku.com/topic/1101/Using-Sabots-in-the-Snider-UPDATE

Very Interesting !
Thanks,
Rich

[rollmyown]

Buckshot, I love that green lube on that rounball load! Great group BTW.

[Buckshot]

Im wondering if your chamber is worn , because mine would not chamber without the bottleneck on the brass. When I did a chamber cast years ago it is a definite bottleneck chamber and these seem to fit perfectly so far. Cerrocast mic'ed at .576 on my bore. I will see how the Best Lube performs with the beeswax rear plug.
Here is my first Test load for grins with local materials...Cost was 14.00 for 50 rounds !!!
39467
Regards,
Rich

...............I doubt the chamber being worn is at issue, rather many Snider shooters report no problem with .600" RB, and some also use the Lyman .610" RB. Then again some others have reported being unable to chamber a round with the .600" RB seated. I think it just depends on the individual chamber.

.................Buckshot

[Andy_P]

...............I doubt the chamber being worn is at issue, rather many Snider shooters report no problem with .600" RB, and some also use the Lyman .610" RB. Then again some others have reported being unable to chamber a round with the .600" RB seated. I think it just depends on the individual chamber.

.................Buckshot

When my snider wouldn't chamber a seated 0.600" round ball at full length, I trimmed the Magtech 24ga brass back a bit and then it chambered fine. Just tap the ball into the case so half is exposed, and coat that part with lube.

[dromia]

The best boolit I've found for the Snider, and I shoot them a lot, is Red River Rick's collar button mould. Shoots well in the slow twist as well as the two band Sniders. Being a collar button design it also holds plenty of lube, and believe me the Snider is a lube hungry rifle.

Link to my review here:

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?t=31451&highlight=Red+River+Rick+paradox

I haven't found Snider's difficult to load for once you get a big enough bullet of the appropriate length/weight for the twist of your rifle.

Mine will hold the black on a 100 yrd target at 100 yrds with Red River Ricks boolit so long as I do my part. The biggest deterrent to good groups, as with all rifles of this period, is the sights.

[jimkim]

I'll comment more when I think of something better to say than "wow" or "kool". Looks good Rich.

[Beekeeper]

not to change the subject but Buckshot how did you get all that in a .577 case?
I am working on mine and the best I can get so far with only a drop tube is

75 grains FFG Goex
playing card wad
.250 grease cookie
playing card wad
.595 Lee mini Ball

I get it seated in the case so it looks like a RB and then I am compressing the powder with the mini.

beekeeper

[Buckshot]

not to change the subject but Buckshot how did you get all that in a .577 case?
I am working on mine and the best I can get so far with only a drop tube is

75 grains FFG Goex
playing card wad
.250 grease cookie
playing card wad
.595 Lee mini Ball

I get it seated in the case so it looks like a RB and then I am compressing the powder with the mini.

beekeeper

..............I think Pyrodrek packs tighter them real BP. Also are you loading Mag-Tech cases? Heck, I was even thinking of trying to insert a heavy cardstock tube into the case to take up room!:-)

I should post my experience shooting my 3 band Snider for the 1st time, but it's almost one of those, "You had to have been there" things [smilie=s: If it was wrong, I did it.

..............Buckshot

[DonH]

...A .600 roundball wont even begin to load in my cases and I sure wont try and shove .022 extra Diameter anything down one of these old rifles.
Rich

Groove diameter varies widely on Sniders but keep in mind that .577" is land-to-land (bore) diameter, nominally. Sniders were converted rifled muskets and the first ctgs. were loaded with the same Minie bullet sized to ram easily down the barrel of an Enfield musket.
A slug made of your barrel, tho hard to measure (especially if yours is 3 groove) will likely reveal bore dia to be low .580s while groove dia. will measure in the .590s. My Canadian MKIII 5 groove measured something like .584"/.594". A Lyman Minie paper patched up to .594" or so works well in mine as does the .600 round ball. The RB is cast of pure lead and tho oversized there is such a small "belt" of lead to be sized down when entering the barrel that the larger dia. is of no consequence. THIS IS, OF COURSE, PROVIDING A CTG. WITH A .600" RB SEATED WILL CHAMBER EASILY! In my rifle the RB load chambers easily and the fired case is large enough to only need "neck sizing" for the ball to be retained in the case.

The idea of a bore-size minie seated in a ctg case flies in the face of all we know nowdays about loading BP cartridges. Additionally, if using Lee dies to reload the Snider rounds, the Lee sizer will size the case down to accept the bore-size bullet, greatly overworking the brass. I measured cases fired in my Snider and had a friend make a simple "neck die" to resize the neck just enough to have a bit of neck tension without touching the rear portion of the case.

Hope this helps!

[Buckshot]

I measured cases fired in my Snider and had a friend make a simple "neck die" to resize the neck just enough to have a bit of neck tension without touching the rear portion of the case.

.............Using the much thinner Mag-Tech cases, the casemouth does have to be sized a bit to hold a .600" RB. The thicker Jamison brass does not and only requires a tiny bit of a crimp to hold the ball. I had made an "Insert" type sizer to use with my 40-65 and 38-55.

http://www.fototime.com/7D019DFA9ED2925/standard.jpg http://www.fototime.com/228949A4DE81AEF/standard.jpg

It worked so well that a couple months back I made another larger die (Above) to take larger .750" OD sizer inserts. I could use it for the 45-90, 577-450, 43 Spanish, and the .577 Snider. The previous body uses smaller 5/8" OD inserts, and I felt the .436" ID required for the 40-65 was a large enough hole leaving a wall thickness of a bit less then 0.100".

................Buckshot

[Mooseman]

Nice work Buckshot ! From 1 machinist to another...
My cases mic .576 at the mouth as formed By Swamps dies. I chamfer the mouth slightly and My Boolits press in with a small amount of force and no real distortion .
If the hollow base filled with beeswax does it part it should fly nicely as my previous test rounds did...

Rich

[Buckshot]

Nice work Buckshot ! From 1 machinist to another...
My cases mic .576 at the mouth as formed By Swamps dies. I chamfer the mouth slightly and My Boolits press in with a small amount of force and no real distortion .
If the hollow base filled with beeswax does it part it should fly nicely as my previous test rounds did...

Rich

.............Thanks! So how DID your previous test rounds do? And sized to .576"????

...............Buckshot

[Mooseman]

2.6 inch group at 60 yards off a bench rest was the best with weighed 70 gr FFg BP.
The Pyrodex shot a little higher string at just under 3.9 inches with a volume charge.
I havent done a boolit capture test yet...but I will.
Rich

[shooterg]

A friend(long gone) made this mold labeled .577, looks to be made to fit lyman handles. Looked like a good thread to jump with an offer ! Anyone willing to make a site donation of maybe $12 and I'll mail it to you on my dime ?

[Mooseman]

A friend(long gone) made this mold labeled .577, looks to be made to fit lyman handles. Looked like a good thread to jump with an offer ! Anyone willing to make a site donation of maybe $12 and I'll mail it to you on my dime ?

I would do that !
PM sent...
Rich

[shooterg]

Cool. Pm back at ya, Mooseman.

[Mooseman]

Thank you Shooterg

Rich

[SciFiJim]

I spotted some 577 snider brass for sale on another forum. I wouldn't normally post something like that, except that I understand this brass to be rare as hens teeth. If mods feel the need to delete this post please do so.

The brass is for sale at "The High Road"
WTS .577 Snider, 50-70, 577/450 Martini (WA) (http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=638448)

I have no relationship with or knowledge of the seller.

[Oldeyes]

A survey for a group buy on an Australian CBE collar button type mold is starting over on the Brit Military forums. No info that I have seen as to price, but those brass CBE molds are nice....
I am posting this here in hopes of drumming up enough support to make this fly, I need one!
http://britishmilitariaforums.yuku.com/topic/13415/Survey--group-buy-CBE-590-480-Snider-large-groove-mould--600

[dromia]

Not meaning in anyway to undercut Douglas's GB but KAL already do a fine Snider collar button mould in inventory.

[murrayif]

I have the following 577 load given to me by a very knowledgeable 577 known by many as an expert . It works very well .

Dies are C&H . Changed the lock nut on the seater to a nut of the proper size works better . Also seating plug has to be longer than the standard one .

(5/8 thread with 1/2" shank)

- case Jameson

- primer CCI - 200

- 65.0 grs FFG

- square piece of wax paper on top of powder

- Lee 1.6 cup of cream of wheat

- Bullet 450 gr solid - mold from Old West Bullet molds - also same bullet mold from Lee and available from a fellow in Alberta Canada who had a batch made .

- Lubed with a lube made with Bees Wax and Neats foot oil

I put the bullets in a small cookie sheet add the wax . When it cools I cut it out with a 24 ga brass shotgun shell . Straight walled and thin walled works great .

If you have and need of info let me know . Seating needs to be started by hand first past the lube groove whipped clean then seated and crimped in the die .